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BigAnt
10-24-07, 11:53 pm
Elbow flexion..turns these bad boys on, raising the arm from the waist to the chest...

No peaking or shaping exercises...peak is genetic and shape, the lower level of body fat you have, your arms will look bigger!

Standing barbell/curl bar curls, alternate dumbbell/hammer curls, pulley curls, preacher curls and concentration curls are the meat and potatoes...gotta have the mind-muscle link...I know of a guy who did 85lb dumbbell concentraton curls, sitting on the end of a bench, resting his working arm between his adductor...he had a legit 20 inch arm, he did no barbell curls? !!

Genetic freak or mind muscle connection, again the important thing is he had big arms!

Find exercises you like and can "groove" with, hit them from a variey of angles.....Sure barbell exercises will incorporate more muscles-you will use heavier weight...just make sure form is good and you warm up properly!

musclealchemist
10-25-07, 12:25 am
like always ant helps us keep it real. thanks ant.

RoJoHen
10-25-07, 1:26 am
I think biceps are also definitely a muscle that benefit greatly by slow negatives. You can use fairly light weight, but if your form is good and you take your time going down, your biceps will feel it.

Roland
10-25-07, 1:40 am
Great post Ant!

rainwave
10-25-07, 3:08 am
Thank you.

Giant Killer
10-25-07, 11:12 am
Swinging Arm Calf Raises will get you nowhere!

Good form will tear them to shreds and force them to rebuild bigger, stronger.

ghost
10-25-07, 11:28 am
wtf are swining arm calf raises? lol.

brandonA
10-25-07, 11:33 am
wtf are swining arm calf raises? lol.

reverse grip power half cleans in the squat rack...LOL....

-B

Giant Killer
10-25-07, 12:09 pm
wtf are swining arm calf raises? lol.

You've seen it done so many times! Think about it. You load up a barbell with more than you can handle with good form. Then you cheat the rep up by making your body "jump" and kicking up on your toes and pulling with your back. Delivering absolutely NO stimulation to the biceps, and lots of stimulation to the calves.

Thus, the swinging arm calf raise was born. A favorite exercise to be done in the power rack.


reverse grip power half cleans in the squat rack...LOL....

-B

LOL theres another name for 'em.

ionacht
10-25-07, 12:15 pm
Swinging Arm Calf Raises will get you nowhere!

Good form will tear them to shreds and force them to rebuild bigger, stronger.


reverse grip power half cleans in the squat rack...LOL....

-B

LMAO. I need to print that off and tape it up in the locker room.

BigAnt
10-25-07, 7:42 pm
I think biceps are also definitely a muscle that benefit greatly by slow negatives. You can use fairly light weight, but if your form is good and you take your time going down, your biceps will feel it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

yeah slow on the way down...good point!

Dingo
10-25-07, 9:42 pm
Swinging Arm Calf Raises will get you nowhere!

Good form will tear them to shreds and force them to rebuild bigger, stronger.

haha love the term.
see em all to often.
to keep from this i place my shoulders down and back and plant firm onto my heels, i also find tigtening my glutes helps keep from swinging.

msktyshha
08-25-10, 12:38 am
I have been doing 5x5 for my biceps and I am training other bodyparts 5/3/1 style or 5x5 style and everything seems to be getting stronger but the biceps are still behind. I train them with back and traps. what training scheme do you guys use to get bigger stronger biceps. Also I was searching on this topic and found this article http://www.ironmagazine.com/article133.html ........seems pretty interesting anybody tried this before? It recommends that you do this at the end of every bicep workout

TRNHRD
08-25-10, 12:47 am
To build bigger biceps you need to build your triceps.

I have found doing 4 exercises per musclegroup works well for me. I usually do about 2-3 sets of 7-10 heavy weight with some negatives and cheat reps at the end if possible.

prowrestler
08-25-10, 2:57 am
stick with the program your on. a program only works if you do it man.

make sure the calories + protien are in check. make sure you are covering pre intra and post workout nutrition. (pre = full meal. intra = some protien and carbs, post = sugar and protien followed by a meal 1-2 hours later).


when your curling 185 5x5 with decent form, tell me what your biceps look like.

Maybe you should adjust to 3x8. begin with 75% 1rm. but honestly...add another 30lbs to your 5x5 first.

jrh0341
08-25-10, 3:51 am
I'd suggest rearranging your workouts. If a bodypart is lagging try moving it to a spot where it gets more priority. I'd guess that it might be hard to get enough good dedicated bicep work on back day. I always liked antogonistic set ups instead, like Back and tris, Chest and Bis. That way, instead of hitting back and then trying to "finish out" your bis, you can hit CHEST and your Bi's are pretty much fresh for a beating aimed right at them.

Another Idea, (what I do now) is I'm a big fan of just doing Bis and Tris together.

Big Wides
08-25-10, 6:11 am
Follow the program that you are on, if it calls for bicep work then do it, if it doesn't there probably is a good reason why it doesnt. A couple of things to help with the biceps:

- Deadlift and Row heavy weights
- Squat heavy as well, this makes them grow
- If your doing direct bicep work, stick to a low set count, they are small group and get hit with back work pretty hard
- Keep it simple: barbell curls, db curls, preacher curls
- What is your diet, gotta eat to get big.

Most important thing is TIME. Give it time and they will grow

msktyshha
08-25-10, 9:52 am
I guess you are right guys, I should be patient with the program...I was just frustrated that everything else was moving up in weight but my bis were still there I guess I just have to wait on them for a bit to catch up. Maybe I'll try cutting down the sets for bis like big wides suggested.......If my next week my reps or weight doesn't move up then I'll try 3 sets of 5 and see how it goes

MrMonday
08-25-10, 11:35 am
Yes these things take time, and you do have to be patient and stick to your program, however if a bodypart is lagging the solution is not to just keep trucking along with it making the same rate of progress as everything else.

If you do that, yes everything will be bigger, but you will still have a LAGGING bodypart, which is the whole point of targeting these things.

My advice, especially with something small and relatively easy to bring up like the biceps, is to train is at least twice a week. (This is what I did for a lagging set of biceps, and you don't have to go crazy with it either)

To this day I train my biceps both on chest/tri day (barbell curls 3 straight sets of 10-15 reps), and shoulder day (1 top set of db curls, preacher curls, and reverse curls), with a back day in between, and the cycle repeating often enough that I'm usually training biceps directly again a third time before the week is through.

**Cue a dozen people to now complain about overtraining that are afraid to walk their dog in case it negatively impacts their leg growth**

Symbiote
08-25-10, 2:53 pm
One thing that's really helped my bicep strength has been heavy reverse grip pulldowns. Make sure your form is in check though, don't go to heavy where the majority of the work load will be from your back and shoulders. Keep the weight were you feel the bicep and then once you get used to that increase.

shizz702
08-25-10, 3:24 pm
Follow the program that you are on, if it calls for bicep work then do it, if it doesn't there probably is a good reason why it doesnt. A couple of things to help with the biceps:

- Deadlift and Row heavy weights
- Squat heavy as well, this makes them grow
- If your doing direct bicep work, stick to a low set count, they are small group and get hit with back work pretty hard
- Keep it simple: barbell curls, db curls, preacher curls
- What is your diet, gotta eat to get big.

Most important thing is TIME. Give it time and they will grow

This.

Redbeard
08-25-10, 3:57 pm
Trust the numbers most of all.

You have two numbers to look at 1RM and arm measurement. If your arm measurement stays still but your 1RM is going up,don't worry - your arms will eventually grow. If (usually over the course of weeks) you find that your 1RM is not increasing, then you need to re-strategize your workout (assuming 1- that you're eating for growth; and 2- that direct arm work is an important part of your program - that's not always the case).

Personally I don't like 5x5 for growing the arms, but that's just something I've discovered about my body through working at it. 4x(6-8) seems to be the sweet spot for me, but I've also got to be eating like a starved dog. I use 1RM calculations a lot. Let's do some math.

Say you're curling 80 pounds x5 reps. That puts your 1RM at 90. Staying at 5 reps (~88.5% of your 1RM) means that in order to increase the resistance (assuming a minimum increment of 5 pounds) you have to add 6 pounds to your 1RM (85 pounds for 5 reps is a 1RM of 96). Alternatively you could go to 6 reps. 80 pounds at 6 reps is a 93 pound 1RM. Easier to put 3 pounds on your 1RM than 6, right? So it seems that it's much more reasonable to add progress by increasing reps. But you have to account for 2 things now - 1- you want to work to an optimal number of reps; and 2- the further you get away from 1 the less accurate 1rm calculations are.

So let's take things a step further. Add another rep. 80 pounds at 7 reps is a 1RM of 96. So if you want then to minimize reps, you can up the weight 5 pounds. And you're working at the same 1RM until you pull that 6th 85 pound rep. In either case you end up with a 5RM that is approximately 88.5% of your 1RM, but this way you have another notch. You don't have to go in leaps and bounds.

Like I said, the further the calculations get away from 1 the less accurate so 1RM based on 7 reps isn't going to be as accurate as with 5 reps. In this case, let's just guess it's off by a pound which doesn't matter that much but with bigger rep ranges there will be a bit of a back-and-forth with your calculated 1RM. I like to take the previous week's 1RM and work with 85% of that, so if last week I managed 8 reps this week I might manage 5 reps and have a lower calculated 1RM, but the added resistance will tend to yield me a higher 1RM next week. If I plot it on a graph, the line is jagged but the general trend is up.

Anyway, the bottom line is, numbers lie less than mirrors

msktyshha
08-25-10, 5:18 pm
Trust the numbers most of all.

You have two numbers to look at 1RM and arm measurement. If your arm measurement stays still but your 1RM is going up,don't worry - your arms will eventually grow. If (usually over the course of weeks) you find that your 1RM is not increasing, then you need to re-strategize your workout (assuming 1- that you're eating for growth; and 2- that direct arm work is an important part of your program - that's not always the case).

Personally I don't like 5x5 for growing the arms, but that's just something I've discovered about my body through working at it. 4x(6-8) seems to be the sweet spot for me, but I've also got to be eating like a starved dog. I use 1RM calculations a lot. Let's do some math.

Say you're curling 80 pounds x5 reps. That puts your 1RM at 90. Staying at 5 reps (~88.5% of your 1RM) means that in order to increase the resistance (assuming a minimum increment of 5 pounds) you have to add 6 pounds to your 1RM (85 pounds for 5 reps is a 1RM of 96). Alternatively you could go to 6 reps. 80 pounds at 6 reps is a 93 pound 1RM. Easier to put 3 pounds on your 1RM than 6, right? So it seems that it's much more reasonable to add progress by increasing reps. But you have to account for 2 things now - 1- you want to work to an optimal number of reps; and 2- the further you get away from 1 the less accurate 1rm calculations are.

So let's take things a step further. Add another rep. 80 pounds at 7 reps is a 1RM of 96. So if you want then to minimize reps, you can up the weight 5 pounds. And you're working at the same 1RM until you pull that 6th 85 pound rep. In either case you end up with a 5RM that is approximately 88.5% of your 1RM, but this way you have another notch. You don't have to go in leaps and bounds.

Like I said, the further the calculations get away from 1 the less accurate so 1RM based on 7 reps isn't going to be as accurate as with 5 reps. In this case, let's just guess it's off by a pound which doesn't matter that much but with bigger rep ranges there will be a bit of a back-and-forth with your calculated 1RM. I like to take the previous week's 1RM and work with 85% of that, so if last week I managed 8 reps this week I might manage 5 reps and have a lower calculated 1RM, but the added resistance will tend to yield me a higher 1RM next week. If I plot it on a graph, the line is jagged but the general trend is up.

Anyway, the bottom line is, numbers lie less than mirrors


my head hurtsss

Redbeard
08-25-10, 5:37 pm
my head hurtsss

My calculator and my workout log (both on my phone) are constantly by my side in the gym

SpankyC
08-25-10, 7:03 pm
As stated above, doing heavy movements like squats, deads, presses will make your arms grow along with your whole body through stress that you cant get from any other movements....you may say "hey when i squat i dont feel it in my biceps", but just from heavy squatting youl be releasing great amount of hormones for your whole body to grow "im sure you heard that a million times lol", my point is basic = results.

msktyshha
08-25-10, 11:20 pm
My calculator and my workout log (both on my phone) are constantly by my side in the gym

lol wow are you the Dr genius bodybuilder?? I started doing calculations when I started this 5/3/1 5x5 hybrid and damn I feel smart now lol. After reading your post 5 times now I get your point ( not saying you weren't clear, its just that I am a little slow) lol that increasing your reps can also increase strength, so you are saying go up to 7-8 reps on a certain weight and then add more poundages this is very true but for now I am going to stick to the 5/3/1 and 5x5 hybrid and give it a lot of time and be patient with it to get some results........just did squats today 3x3 and leg presses 5x5 and already feels like my body is shooting hormones all over lol

Redbeard
08-26-10, 12:40 pm
By all means stick to your routine. Only abandon a routine when it stops working.

Sprint
08-26-10, 9:17 pm
How long have you been on the current program?

It's fairly normal for some bodyparts to grow quicker/easier than others, and that bodypart varies from person to person.

As mentioned above, just be patient & use a bit of trial & error. You're only limited by your own imagination.

msktyshha
08-26-10, 11:00 pm
5 weeks I know I have to stick to it longer than that to see results

BamBam
08-27-10, 10:56 am
Take a BB, curl it 100 times... dont stop, dont drop it, dont quit curling until you get to 100 (or if you are a beginner build up to 100). I've started doing this and I will warn you, this BLOWS and hurts like shit but my arms have grown in the past 2 months of doing it.

btw.. Derek Poundstone does it and I got it from an article on him. Says it teaches him to work through the pain and lactic acid build up

IN IRON,
BB-

Redbeard
08-27-10, 12:08 pm
Holy Shit, how do you even begin to know what weight you can curl 100 times!? I kinda wanna try that just to see if I can.

BamBam
08-27-10, 12:13 pm
Holy Shit, how do you even begin to know what weight you can curl 100 times!? I kinda wanna try that just to see if I can.

Empty bar... yeah, empty. Completely different from anything I have ever done. Have fun. I've made it to 78 so far and had to drop it.. although did end up getting 100 by adding in another set of 22

IN IRON,
BB-

IRN-NML
08-27-10, 4:20 pm
Empty bar... yeah, empty. Completely different from anything I have ever done. Have fun. I've made it to 78 so far and had to drop it.. although did end up getting 100 by adding in another set of 22

IN IRON,
BB-

Sounds plausible. How are you working this for bi's training? Sole lift for bi's? Once a week? Regular program for the tri's? Curling the bar up to your shoulders, chin or nose?

Fair to say an empty Oly bar sounds light, but 100 good reps...! You could do variations....concentration 100's..bar on your thighs or knees bent, back against the wall prison curls.

Cellardweller
08-27-10, 4:31 pm
I think this is crazy and I feel drawn to it. :D I have to know how you work it in too.

Aggression
08-27-10, 4:38 pm
Stick to a program long enough to see results. I'm talking minimum 6-8 weeks. Don't drop something after 2 workouts if they don't start peaking like a top pro's. Hit the gym for a normal bicep workout and experiment with different exercises and reps. If you wake up the next day and your biceps are more sore than other weeks, there you go; use those movements/that rep scheme as your bicep workout. Find out what works for you.

Through trial and error, I have found that higher reps (10+) and starting off with an isolation (db preacher bench curl) work best for me. To each, their own.

msktyshha
08-27-10, 10:24 pm
Stick to a program long enough to see results. I'm talking minimum 6-8 weeks. Don't drop something after 2 workouts if they don't start peaking like a top pro's. Hit the gym for a normal bicep workout and experiment with different exercises and reps. If you wake up the next day and your biceps are more sore than other weeks, there you go; use those movements/that rep scheme as your bicep workout. Find out what works for you.

Through trial and error, I have found that higher reps (10+) and starting off with an isolation (db preacher bench curl) work best for me. To each, their own.

I want my biceps to be stronger...I mean there growing but it's due to heavy back workouts but I wanna move up in weight on my barbell curls

J Wong
08-28-10, 1:26 am
To build bigger biceps you need to build your triceps.

I'm sorry, but what?


Squat heavy as well, this makes them grow

I have never understanded this theory to be honest. How does this work?

Jzepp
08-28-10, 4:27 am
What about weighted chins? Does anybody do these for biceps? I believe they are good for the back and the biceps. I do them on my back/biceps day and although i am only attaching 25 pounds, my biceps are getting bigger since added. I also do barbell curls.

Big Wides
08-28-10, 10:20 am
I have never understanded this theory to be honest. How does this work?

Here's my take on this theory, when you are squatting what muscles are invovled in holding onto the bar will grow due to the strain that you are using to keep the bar from falling off your back. I have found that the lower on your back the bar is placed, the more arm involvement in holding the bar. Also, this theory applies to the traps and back too, in my book

BamBam
08-28-10, 10:43 am
Here's my take on this theory, when you are squatting what muscles are invovled in holding onto the bar will grow due to the strain that you are using to keep the bar from falling off your back. I have found that the lower on your back the bar is placed, the more arm involvement in holding the bar. Also, this theory applies to the traps and back too, in my book

I agree... especially if you truly are gripping the bar and also having your elbows under the bar, not flared backwards.

To answer RedBeard and Cellar, I curl, knees slightly bent, full range of motion from upper thigh to my nose. That's just my full range of motion so of course different people will hit different places.

I will work these in on my accessory workouts as the ONLY bicep movement, or if I am working out on my other workout days I will usually do just hammer curls (I'm a powerlifter so don't need huge guns). I will do them once a month, maybe twice because as a powerlifter again I don't need huge bi's.

prowrestler
08-28-10, 5:22 pm
I will work these in on my accessory workouts as the ONLY bicep movement, or if I am working out on my other workout days I will usually do just hammer curls (I'm a powerlifter so don't need huge guns). I will do them once a month, maybe twice because as a powerlifter again I don't need huge bi's.

2 things

1, if this is the case, why reccomend it to this guy when he has priority to bring up his biceps?

2, as a powerlifter i think it would be smart to give biceps there due. balance the triceps which are HUGE in powerlifting. muscle balance is important to avoid injury

BamBam
08-28-10, 5:36 pm
2 things

1, if this is the case, why reccomend it to this guy when he has priority to bring up his biceps?

2, as a powerlifter i think it would be smart to give biceps there due. balance the triceps which are HUGE in powerlifting. muscle balance is important to avoid injury

1.) Try the workout and see if it doesn't bring up your bi's.. and I reccommend then because he obviously has tried some different things and this is one curveball that your bi's won't expect.

2.) It isn't the only thing I do for bi's but the bi's are nowhere near a "primary mover" in any powerlifting lift. And when Louie Simmons tells me heavy hammer curls is all you need, I tend to listen.

And I believe Kuclo said it at the Arnold... if you are doing the big 3 lifts, and you are doing them right and doing them heavy week in and out, your body will have no choice to grow. Again, Wides brought this to light when he mentioned squatting heavy and I agree. My arms are more vascular after squatting and deadlifting than when I do bi's directly or did them in the past. This lift or whatever is simply a change of pace..

IN IRON,
BB-

prowrestler
08-28-10, 5:48 pm
1.) Try the workout and see if it doesn't bring up your bi's.. and I reccommend then because he obviously has tried some different things and this is one curveball that your bi's won't expect.

2.) It isn't the only thing I do for bi's but the bi's are nowhere near a "primary mover" in any powerlifting lift. And when Louie Simmons tells me heavy hammer curls is all you need, I tend to listen.

And I believe Kuclo said it at the Arnold... if you are doing the big 3 lifts, and you are doing them right and doing them heavy week in and out, your body will have no choice to grow. Again, Wides brought this to light when he mentioned squatting heavy and I agree. My arms are more vascular after squatting and deadlifting than when I do bi's directly or did them in the past. This lift or whatever is simply a change of pace..

IN IRON,
BB-
alright then, i see where your commin from

my point is that they should deffinatly not be neglected. i hate the trend of strength athletes ignoring biceps for no reason. as far as a powerlifter is concerned, biceps should be done for balance.

think of all those guys with massive quads and no hamstrings...injury waiting to happen.

BamBam
08-28-10, 6:15 pm
alright then, i see where your commin from

my point is that they should deffinatly not be neglected. i hate the trend of strength athletes ignoring biceps for no reason. as far as a powerlifter is concerned, biceps should be done for balance.

think of all those guys with massive quads and no hamstrings...injury waiting to happen.

True. Biceps need to be trained, but I dont this guy thinking that stronger biceps = a bigger deadlift, bench, squat, etc.. Might help, but not likely.

I usually will either do hammers, the 100 rep madness, or just simple 4-5 x 10 of BB curls to mix it up.

prowrestler
08-28-10, 6:25 pm
True. Biceps need to be trained, but I dont this guy thinking that stronger biceps = a bigger deadlift, bench, squat, etc.. Might help, but not likely.

I usually will either do hammers, the 100 rep madness, or just simple 4-5 x 10 of BB curls to mix it up.

ya, not gonna get much carry over to those lifts if any.

just due to hand positioning, id say hammers are the best

BamBam
08-28-10, 6:57 pm
ya, not gonna get much carry over to those lifts if any.

just due to hand positioning, id say hammers are the best

Those have helped me in benching taking some strain off my elbows due to handling more weight. Getting up to the 120's for 8 each arm. Plus let's not forget about the grip benefits

prowrestler
08-28-10, 7:35 pm
Those have helped me in benching taking some strain off my elbows due to handling more weight. Getting up to the 120's for 8 each arm. Plus let's not forget about the grip benefits

bigger forearm flexors wll give more of a cushion aswell and help prevent the wrists traveling behind the elbow

BamBam
08-28-10, 7:37 pm
bigger forearm flexors wll give more of a cushion aswell and help prevent the wrists traveling behind the elbow

That was my problem for the longest time on the bench (minus overall strength..) and now I feel like I've fixed it with the help of Dave Tate and Hammer Curls

prowrestler
08-28-10, 7:59 pm
That was my problem for the longest time on the bench (minus overall strength..) and now I feel like I've fixed it with the help of Dave Tate and Hammer Curls

check out the "so you think you can bench' video series if you have not already

BamBam
08-28-10, 8:07 pm
check out the "so you think you can bench' video series if you have not already

Have them saved to my Droid lol

Redbeard
08-29-10, 2:06 pm
Do you guys do hammers straight up or across the body? I've been doing them across the body and find it tends to build up my brachialis but I've never really felt the impact on my grip. Of course I'm not super heavy with them either, but i'm guessing that doing them straight up you can probably get more weight out of them.

Also, I've never gotten my arms under the bar like that on squats. I don't exactly flare them back but just use them to press the bar onto my traps. Doing them like this, the closer I get my hands in, the more my chest spreads which tends to straighten the back out and help maintain form during the lift. But reading this thread I wonder if maybe I can't get more out of the lift by pushing the weight with the arms as mentioned.

Sprint
08-29-10, 2:38 pm
Do you guys do hammers straight up or across the body? I've been doing them across the body and find it tends to build up my brachialis but I've never really felt the impact on my grip. Of course I'm not super heavy with them either, but i'm guessing that doing them straight up you can probably get more weight out of them.

Also, I've never gotten my arms under the bar like that on squats. I don't exactly flare them back but just use them to press the bar onto my traps. Doing them like this, the closer I get my hands in, the more my chest spreads which tends to straighten the back out and help maintain form during the lift. But reading this thread I wonder if maybe I can't get more out of the lift by pushing the weight with the arms as mentioned.

Try them all, see what works for you bro. S'all I can really say here.

BamBam
08-30-10, 12:01 pm
Do you guys do hammers straight up or across the body? I've been doing them across the body and find it tends to build up my brachialis but I've never really felt the impact on my grip. Of course I'm not super heavy with them either, but i'm guessing that doing them straight up you can probably get more weight out of them.

Also, I've never gotten my arms under the bar like that on squats. I don't exactly flare them back but just use them to press the bar onto my traps. Doing them like this, the closer I get my hands in, the more my chest spreads which tends to straighten the back out and help maintain form during the lift. But reading this thread I wonder if maybe I can't get more out of the lift by pushing the weight with the arms as mentioned.

I used to squat arms in, and now I put my hands as far out on the bar as I can go and it worked wonders for me. Also, I know this is an ARMS thread so to speak, but on the squat, the tighter you keep your UPPER back, the less likely you are for your chest to relax. When you tighten your upper back and push your head back into the bar, your chest will stay up and broad, and if you are filling your stomach with air and pushing your abs out, your lower back will stay tight. Sorry, I love the squat so I will help when I can

But I do hammers arms to my sides at 90 degrees.

Aggression
08-30-10, 12:13 pm
Do you guys do hammers straight up or across the body? I've been doing them across the body and find it tends to build up my brachialis but I've never really felt the impact on my grip. Of course I'm not super heavy with them either, but i'm guessing that doing them straight up you can probably get more weight out of them.

I mix it up. One week straight up/down. The next .. cross body, I call 'em pinwheel curls.