Pyramid Building

[ReLoaDeD57]

Ok so I'm back at it again for the 4th time and well Now since I didn't get one of them 3 month passes like I use to buy I'm paying monthly so nothing is holding me back now. I'm currently in set with a intermediate routine and I had this log with me today because I'm logging everything again..
I started to this older guy about how I log everything and plan on getting nice size and nothing is stopping me now.. he says " Pyramid Build "

which I hear of Pyramid building when I first went to the gym as a young lad with my dad and I heard my bro will talk about how pyramid building is all around the best for you!!

So I want to get everyones opinion on what you think is best.. keep at it with the training guides that the animalpak website gives me on the main page or should i change up my routine to a Pyramid Building..

if I do think Pyramid Building is best could you toss me some advice and point me in the right direction on what I should do and work-out routines

Thank you everyone on the forvM

Steve Kalz

[ANewBreed]

you always want to mix it up. While I've read studies to suggest that pyramid is the most effective form of training, you have to remember how adaptive your body is. If you ALWAYS pyramid build, its going to lose effectiveness. Your body will adapt to the rep scheme and even the speed at which you do the rep. So if you want pyramid for a few weeks and the siwtch up the rep scheme, like go from 10 8 6 to 6 8 10....hope it helps.

[Cstlfx]

I agree with ANewBreed. Thats what I like about pyramid's, they can go either way. Starting with low reps sometimes, then starting with high reps another time. I like it because I think its flexible, doesnt allow my body to become to accustom to it. Just keep switching the rep scheme up and you should be good.

[Barker]

I think pyramiding is the best approach to warming up but i like to save most of my energy for my working sets with heavy weight. For smaller exercises i usually do 8, 5, 3, reps before busting out my heavy sets in the 4-6 rep range. for big exercises like squats and deads i usually do 8, 5, 3, 2, and sometimes a 1 rep set a bit lighter than my heavy sets. do what works for you though.

[Torque757]

Ok so I'm back at it again for the 4th time and well Now since I didn't get one of them 3 month passes like I use to buy I'm paying monthly so nothing is holding me back now. I'm currently in set with a intermediate routine and I had this log with me today because I'm logging everything again..
I started to this older guy about how I log everything and plan on getting nice size and nothing is stopping me now.. he says " Pyramid Build "

which I hear of Pyramid building when I first went to the gym as a young lad with my dad and I heard my bro will talk about how pyramid building is all around the best for you!!

So I want to get everyones opinion on what you think is best.. keep at it with the training guides that the animalpak website gives me on the main page or should i change up my routine to a Pyramid Building..

if I do think Pyramid Building is best could you toss me some advice and point me in the right direction on what I should do and work-out routines

Thank you everyone on the forvM

Steve Kalz

I think you should use the various animal routines, alt when they get oldand make minor changes where you feel necessary. After goind through a few, start customizing programs for yourself with the knowledge of what works best for you.

[ReLoaDeD57]

Ill definitely have to keep this in mind. Ill probably stick with this pyramid for a few weeks see where it takes me

[JFITZ]

Question related to this thread - I usually go with the pyramid approach, adding 5 or 10 pounds with each set, reps going 10, 8, 6, 4 for example. But some programs will for example say to do 3 sets of 8 reps. Does that mean you are keeping the weight the same for each set, or are you supposed to add weight and still do the same amount of reps as the first set? Seems to me if you're going to failure on the first set you wouldnt be able to do the same amount of reps on the next set if you add weight? Or is it that you shouldn't be going to failure on those first sets in that kind of program? Obviously I'm confused, pyramid is the only way I've ever really done it...

[ANewBreed]

Question related to this thread - I usually go with the pyramid approach, adding 5 or 10 pounds with each set, reps going 10, 8, 6, 4 for example. But some programs will for example say to do 3 sets of 8 reps. Does that mean you are keeping the weight the same for each set, or are you supposed to add weight and still do the same amount of reps as the first set? Seems to me if you're going to failure on the first set you wouldnt be able to do the same amount of reps on the next set if you add weight? Or is it that you shouldn't be going to failure on those first sets in that kind of program? Obviously I'm confused, pyramid is the only way I've ever really done it...

you dont ALWAYS have to increase weight as your workout progresses. Like you said, sometimes people do 3 x 8...whether or not you use the same weight is up to you. Sometimes people will find that the weight they started with was too easy for 8 reps, so theyll increase the weight til they reach failure or near failure by the 8th rep, and then stick with that weight. So in essence if your sticking with the same number of reps, you should stick with the weight that fits the prescribed amount of reps.

Whether or not you train to failure is a totally personal matter. Some people advocate it...others dont....typically if you doing a high volume work out (you do 5 x 10 for 5 different exercises for example), you don't want to train to compelte failure on every set, because you may not be able to finish your workout...but once again so many personal factors come into play that there's no correct answer for that.

The main idea is to always change it up. Go 10, 8, 6, 4 for 3-4 weeks, switch it up to 4, 6, 8, 10 (proper warm up of course) and then maybe go for a 5x5 routine.

[EBO13]

when i pyramid on bench or curls... or on anything... what is the best way... i dont exactly know how to ask so im gunna just give 2 different routines and see what yall think is best or if im totally wrong...

this was my flat bench on monday
135x15, 155x10, 195x8, 245x4, 185x8, 155x10

should i continue to add weight like this?
135x15, 155x10, 195x8, 215x6, 245x4, 255x1or2.....

is it best to end with a heavy weight or continue to raise the weight and finish it with heavy? and im not just talking about flat bench.... incline... curls... tris... everything...

[Enforcer]

Bro both workouts are legit. It's always good to change up your routines-whether it be doing a reuglar pyramid style where you gradually increase the weight with each set or do a reverse pyramid workout where you start with all heavy weight and then drop weight and do more reps. You can do this with any body part you train. Drop sets are also good to add in here and there. Each way works well and it's always good to change up your rountine so your body doesn't get used to doing the same thing over and over again.

[sanga]

I ususlly do something like- 15-12-10-8-6-4 then maybe a 2 but not often.

Tiny has a great way of doing it, I`ve been using it lately too check out what does tiny know thread, some excellent reading on there. he pyramids to low reps then does 2 or 3 sets with his working weight for 8 reps or so.

[LegendKillerJosh]

I believe you should finish out with your heaviest set. After going to failure I don't believe it is necessary or productive to train any further.

[pmug0000]

I believe you should finish out with your heaviest set. After going to failure I don't believe it is necessary or productive to train any further.

I disagree. I think it is a good idea to do one or two high-rep sets after your heaviest set to flush the muscle with blood and get a good pump going even after your strength is decreased.

[ionacht]

I thought that by definition a pyramid scheme was that you go light-heavy-light. Here is what I consider a pyramid scheme for bench taken from week 1 of Sheiko cms/ms routine (%=%of 1RM)
1x6@50%, 1x5@60%, 2x4@70%, 2x3@75%, 2x2@80%, 2x3@75%, 1x4@70%, 6x1@65%, 1x8@60%, 1x10@50%. Yes that is 14 sets, but lest that impress week 3 of the same program calls for a 20 set routine going from 55%-85% and back down in 5% increments.

[SomeDayI'llBeXL]

What are you looking to do, get bigger or get stronger. When I trained like a bodybuilder, I always went up in weight, but down in reps. I always tried for 5 reps, but if i got to 8 reps, I stopped and upped the weight. Now that Im powerlifting. My reps are always 3, I just make larger jumps in weight. Keppe switching the routine and keep the body guessing. Aslong as you aremaking gains and getting results, it sounds like you are doing the right thing already.

[rocky36]

well since there is strong opions on both sides i have a easy solution my friend...

experiment with both ways. what ever gives you the better gains is the one i would stick with. But i would do the other every once in a while just for a little mix up.

[squattingtillipuke]

I posted this question to G Diesel a number of months ago and your pyramid that you had stated in the beginning is the true definition of that type of routine. Now the one thing that G added to mine was the last set wasn't a defined quantity it was more of a 155xmax...that last set is there to push your ass to submission...keep up the good work and you will definately see results, I have ran pyramids twice when I hit ruts and they worked both times.

Good luck bro

[Tiny]

I believe you should finish out with your heaviest set. After going to failure I don't believe it is necessary or productive to train any further.

Ha! Well then my good man, you are missing out on some real good cns manipulation.

[simpleguy]

I ususlly do something like- 15-12-10-8-6-4 then maybe a 2 but not often.

Tiny has a great way of doing it, I`ve been using it lately too check out what does tiny know thread, some excellent reading on there. he pyramids to low reps then does 2 or 3 sets with his working weight for 8 reps or so.

of course he does... G Diesel does it too
and anyone who knows his job

I like sticking to a 10-8-6-3-1-12-15 rep scheme (though I don't always hit exactly these amounts)
imo after your heaviest set (let's say 1 rep) you should have 2-3 sets to failure somewhere in the 10-20 rep range

[pmug0000]

of course he does... G Diesel does it too
and anyone who knows his job

I like sticking to a 10-8-6-3-1-12-15 rep scheme (though I don't always hit exactly these amounts)
imo after your heaviest set (let's say 1 rep) you should have 2-3 sets to failure somewhere in the 10-20 rep range

I pretty much agree, but I don't no that you should necessarily try to work up to your 1 RM every session, I typically don't go under the 4-5 rep range. But I am all for a rep scheme similar to what you outlined.

[LegendKillerJosh]

Ha! Well then my good man, you are missing out on some real good cns manipulation.

I don't train for optimal central nervous system stimulation, but MUSCLE growth.

[simpleguy]

I pretty much agree, but I don't no that you should necessarily try to work up to your 1 RM every session, I typically don't go under the 4-5 rep range. But I am all for a rep scheme similar to what you outlined.

yeah, G Diesel suggested a 10-8-6-3-12-15 for me on the bench

so a 1 rep max is not really neccessary

but what I said (and G Diesel said) is only a guideline of course

the point I was trying to make is that I think it's best to have 2-3 hypertrophy sets (10-20 reps depending on set) after your heaviest set

[Tiny]

I don't train for optimal central nervous system stimulation, but MUSCLE growth.

You are missing big time in that arena my friend - selling yourself short. I know you know you have two different types of fibres, basically - well by ascending above your working weight (merely touching it with low reps so as not to overtax yourself) and going heavier, when you drop all the way back to that working weight, you are stronger - instantly. Now go and try it and thank me later.
Oh, and this is not anything new and it is something I thought every muscle head knows, and literally you will be stronger and it works with everyone everytime, so . . . you learn something new everyday.

[SDR]

You are missing big time in that arena my friend - selling yourself short. I know you know you have two different types of fibres, basically - well by ascending above your working weight (merely touching it with low reps so as not to overtax yourself) and going heavier, when you drop all the way back to that working weight, you are stronger - instantly. Now go and try it and thank me later.
Oh, and this is not anything new and it is something I thought every muscle head knows, and literally you will be stronger and it works with everyone everytime, so . . . you learn something new everyday.

I have definately noticed this, when I tried it on the flat bench press....but Tiny do you personally do this for all movements in a workout? or just the main mass builder...

for example if im doing back, i always do that on deadlifts , but would i do that on the rest of my 3/4 exercises left?

[LegendKillerJosh]

You are missing big time in that arena my friend - selling yourself short. I know you know you have two different types of fibres, basically - well by ascending above your working weight (merely touching it with low reps so as not to overtax yourself) and going heavier, when you drop all the way back to that working weight, you are stronger - instantly. Now go and try it and thank me later.
Oh, and this is not anything new and it is something I thought every muscle head knows, and literally you will be stronger and it works with everyone everytime, so . . . you learn something new everyday.

Well I believe something different. I believe HIT works for everyone everytime, and I know it does not help me to add extra low intensity sets to my routine. If you are training until absolute failure, you shouldn't be able to lift anymore, even with lighter weights. And if you can, you are delving too far into your bodies recovery systems.

[bovat]

well you can work off percentages, like start at fifty percent and go up to whatever rep you feel like failing at, so if its eight reps, then go to eighty percent for you strongest set, and then always end it with some lighter sets just like you did in the first example routine, its proven to increase strenght gains more than just doing the one really heavy set and being done.

[Tiny]

Well I believe something different. I believe HIT works for everyone everytime, and I know it does not help me to add extra low intensity sets to my routine. If you are training until absolute failure, you shouldn't be able to lift anymore, even with lighter weights. And if you can, you are delving too far into your bodies recovery systems.

You are mistaken. VERY mistaken. But that's okay, it is a free country, and there are many ways to skin a cat - it's just that some are much more efficient than others.

[sanga]

Well I believe something different. I believe HIT works for everyone everytime, and I know it does not help me to add extra low intensity sets to my routine. If you are training until absolute failure, you shouldn't be able to lift anymore, even with lighter weights. And if you can, you are delving too far into your bodies recovery systems.


I have done HIT in the past and although it works to a great degree, the problem I found with it was too few sets and the reaon why is not many people, in fact everyone, can generate the intensity, the mindset to push to complete and utter and I do mean complete failure for 1-2 sets every workout throughout, the biggest obstacle in training to failure whether it be HIT or not is your mind, the mind gives in long before the body.

I have squatted to complete failure on a few occassions, where I bombed out at the bottom of the rack and the bars have caught the weight, I fell and just laid there gasping for breath, I`m sure many people have done this but most can not as the mind gives in, its the biggestg challenge and a real killer, you can`t train like that full out to failure in my opinion all the time.

If HIT is working for you then you should stick to it but I think 2-3 sets after your faiulure sets will work wonders, amazing what they can do for your legs especially, just my opinions mate.

[Tiny]

One point I am getting confused with here is the overall general consensus of what defines a completed set. I take it for granted that EVERYONE knows that if you pick your ideal rep range as 10-12 reps, and you get under the bar and hit number 12 and you got more in the tank, then you keep going and afterward, you increase weight to restablish perimeters. Number 12 MUST be the last you can achieve IF 12 is the number you believe ideal for the set. Surely you guys don't think me or any of us with serious mass just stop at a certain number of reps - right? I mean, your muscles don't know they are supposed to respond a particular way at any certain number. Muscle responds to demand - to stress placed upon it. So I am unsure as to what you are calling "failure" here. 12 is the last rep because you could not achieve a 13th. That is why usually there is a range 6-8, 10-12, 12-15, whatever - because you may not be able to gage so precisely the exact rep you end upon. Do you think failure means I would have to attempt number 13 and get stuck? Every work set - in my book - goes to failure. Failure is when the last rep is the last rep. I ain't the only huge guy that thinks this shit - this is largely universal - ask Machine or somebody else huge. I try to post frequently but shit I write doesn't only apply to me - trust me, we exchange ideas and that is how all of us got to where we are now. I was fortunate enough to train with a lot of big strong guys and we always borrow ideas and shit.

[simpleguy]

One point I am getting confused with here is the overall general consensus of what defines a completed set. I take it for granted that EVERYONE knows that if you pick your ideal rep range as 10-12 reps, and you get under the bar and hit number 12 and you got more in the tank, then you keep going and afterward, you increase weight to restablish perimeters. Number 12 MUST be the last you can achieve IF 12 is the number you believe ideal for the set. Surely you guys don't think me or any of us with serious mass just stop at a certain number of reps - right? I mean, your muscles don't know they are supposed to respond a particular way at any certain number. Muscle responds to demand - to stress placed upon it. So I am unsure as to what you are calling "failure" here. 12 is the last rep because you could not achieve a 13th. That is why usually there is a range 6-8, 10-12, 12-15, whatever - because you may not be able to gage so precisely the exact rep you end upon. Do you think failure means I would have to attempt number 13 and get stuck? Every work set - in my book - goes to failure. Failure is when the last rep is the last rep. I ain't the only huge guy that thinks this shit - this is largely universal - ask Machine or somebody else huge. I try to post frequently but shit I write doesn't only apply to me - trust me, we exchange ideas and that is how all of us got to where we are now. I was fortunate enough to train with a lot of big strong guys and we always borrow ideas and shit.

may I ask, do you think that every set should be done to failure? personnally I don't, I only do my last 2 sets (first one in the 8-12 range, 2nd one in the 12-20 range) to failure... what's your take on this one?

[Tiny]

may I ask, do you think that every set should be done to failure? personnally I don't, I only do my last 2 sets (first one in the 8-12 range, 2nd one in the 12-20 range) to failure... what's your take on this one?

Oh no, not every set - only "work sets." This is where guys so often become confused when trying to grasp Yates' approach or even, but to lesser degree Menzer's. Watching Yates (just ideal example because everyone knows who he is) train it appears he does a decent volume of work but when he explains his approach, he talks about 1 or 2 work sets being all that he does. I do similar as do many others - not by intention, but simply because it works and it's where a lot of us end up. I do quite a few sets - some before my working sets, some afterwards but only the working sets are all out effort expenditures. Some sets are primaily warming sets, some are for CNS trickery (which temporarily gains me access to additional fibres and for that time literally allows me to achieve greater number of reps with a given weight than I otherwise would be capable of and it works - I dare anyone to try it and they will readily see - it isn't something I merely proffer - it works then and there for anyone who employs it. It's old school, been around a long time, nothing new), and other sets are for capilary development (pump sets - more or less, if you prefer).

[LegendKillerJosh]

One point I am getting confused with here is the overall general consensus of what defines a completed set. I take it for granted that EVERYONE knows that if you pick your ideal rep range as 10-12 reps, and you get under the bar and hit number 12 and you got more in the tank, then you keep going and afterward, you increase weight to restablish perimeters. Number 12 MUST be the last you can achieve IF 12 is the number you believe ideal for the set. Surely you guys don't think me or any of us with serious mass just stop at a certain number of reps - right? I mean, your muscles don't know they are supposed to respond a particular way at any certain number. Muscle responds to demand - to stress placed upon it. So I am unsure as to what you are calling "failure" here. 12 is the last rep because you could not achieve a 13th. That is why usually there is a range 6-8, 10-12, 12-15, whatever - because you may not be able to gage so precisely the exact rep you end upon. Do you think failure means I would have to attempt number 13 and get stuck? Every work set - in my book - goes to failure. Failure is when the last rep is the last rep. I ain't the only huge guy that thinks this shit - this is largely universal - ask Machine or somebody else huge. I try to post frequently but shit I write doesn't only apply to me - trust me, we exchange ideas and that is how all of us got to where we are now. I was fortunate enough to train with a lot of big strong guys and we always borrow ideas and shit.


Failure is more than just not being able to lift a certain weight anymore. Lifting is only 1 of 3 parts to a rep. There is also the static and the negative, and I'm sure you already know this. Most people think HIT doesn't work since they don't understand exactly what FAILURE is. Failure means you need someone to help you on the positive portion, then you need to statically hold the weight as long as possible, and then lower it as slow as you can while you are still trying to push against the weight. THAT is TRUE FAILURE. And I'm not sure where you get off saying that I'm mistaken, that HIT may not work for everyone. Every one of our bodies is chemically the same, and all adapt to stress the same. If you can't get results from HIT, then you are not doing it correctly.

[Tiny]

Umm, no, by definition that would be a negative. And negatives stimulate arguably little in way of hypertrophy since all muscles can only pull and no muscle pushes anything.

[Tiny]

I don't train for optimal central nervous system stimulation, but MUSCLE growth.

And "muscle growth" is limited by the degree of neurological pathyway development.

[LegendKillerJosh]

Umm, no, by definition that would be a negative. And negatives stimulate arguably little in way of hypertrophy since all muscles can only pull and no muscle pushes anything.

What do you mean no muscle pushes anything?

[Tiny]

What do you mean no muscle pushes anything?

You know, as in literally all muscles - every fucking single one - can only contract. All muscles pull no muscle pushes - tricep extension, for example, the tricep PULLS and shortens, contracts to straighten the arm - same in every other instance with moving anything. It should be common sense but if you begin to focus on that as you are exercising, THEN you really get into that muscle and seriously enjoy a solid connection. I can sit in a chair and without the aid of my skeletal structure, I can consciously fex or bounce an entire plethora of individual muscles because of that advanced connection. Some guys can flex pecs, many of us long term trainers can flex everything - and all else remains absolutely still. It is pretty fun - try it sometime. But, WTF, this thread is beginning to bore the shit out of me. Anyway, right out of the box, if you are focusing on pushing anything off you when benching . . . then you are swirling in the ignorance of illusion and a lack of understanding. May work okay for a powerlifter but for REAL hypertrophy, babe, you gotta get your fucking head in there.

[LegendKillerJosh]

Trust me Tiny...I understand everything you are saying. And it is great advice. I know you know your shit, and I appreciate being able to pick your brain. We may have different training styles, and I'm not saying there is only 1 effective style. I've seen pictures of you and yours obviously works for you. That being said...I'm finally done with this thread now.

[Tiny]

Trust me Tiny...I understand everything you are saying. And it is great advice. I know you know your shit, and I appreciate being able to pick your brain. We may have different training styles, and I'm not saying there is only 1 effective style. I've seen pictures of you and yours obviously works for you. That being said...I'm finally done with this thread now.

Oh, surely there are endless approaches and many, many ways to arrive at the same or similar place, no question about that. Whatever method anyone elects for their own, as they progress their technique becomes refined - it simply has to. Initially, you can nearly stumble along and progress - which is why many beginners shouldn't over complicate things but eventually it does get complicated and you have to be clever. If you're not only still going hard and consistent in 20 years but actually still growing, by that time you will have tried a whole lot of things and many will work at different times. But one thing you will agree on by then is that you will have a good handle on efficiency. Best of luck.