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damitramit
12-20-07, 1:36 am
is casein protein only good for the first and last shake of the day? whats the word on casein protein :/

BigBlueBear
12-20-07, 1:38 am
Lotta people advocate throwin in some caesin in your post workout protein shakes as well. The combo of whey / caesin does quite well.

I usually use whey exclusively in the morning for my first shake since da body will be starvin for some quick protein lovin. That said, I still take in a caesin shake before bed to feed while I sleep.

Nightshift
12-20-07, 1:42 am
For your first shake, I'd recommend a Whey Isolate or Whey Isolate/Concentrate due to it's fast absorption. For PWO I would suggest a Whey/Casein. And before bed a casein shake. I'd also suggest taking a Casein shake if it's going to be a while till your next meal.

Roland
12-20-07, 1:47 am
Before bed, casein is good, but if you can do multiple types of proteins (mine is 5 diff types) it might last a little longer in ya. Add some healthy fats and you're good for the night!

damitramit
12-20-07, 1:47 am
that sound good guys....make sense..casein at nigth since i wont eat till mornin..and whey first so it hits my body hard..cool...ok this question is probloy outa place..but whats the basics for carb cycling..i weitgh 180lbs ..how much carbs should ibe consumin..and is carb cyclyn for cuttin? thanks fellas!

Jimmy
12-20-07, 1:49 am
first thing in the morning you want whey over casien. your body has been in a catabolic state most of the night and you need nutrients fast. casein is a great shake to have before bed, it will stave off nighttime catabolism as much as possible. i agree with nightshift on sticking to just whey isolate or hydrolysate post workout. if you want to throw a shake in during the middle of the day, try a blend of different powders, like whey & casein or
Milk & Egg or all four.

Lleonart
12-20-07, 2:11 am
The way I work casein protein is that I take it when i know I wont be able to eat for a while. I usually take it before bedtime so my body has nutrients throughout the night. Also I will take it if i know i wont be able to access any food for a couple hours.

ThaiFighter
12-21-07, 2:09 pm
as for the card question, are you bulkin or cutting? if bulking just eat all the good carbs. you can find so many in many threds. i like to cycle carbs while i'm cutting. i do 1 day with 3 days without and so on. everyone is different with carbs so find out what works for you, experiment a little bit

Wasteland
12-21-07, 2:56 pm
Does casein have functional strengths that are greater than whey? Yes. Does whey offer benefits that are superior to casein? Yes. In the grand scheme of things, it really won't matter one way or the other. Really, it won't.

By casein, I assume you're referring to micellar casein?

JohnSell
12-21-07, 3:31 pm
I hear about people mixing whey and casein quite alot. I just use it for my nighttime shake with natty pb and milk for the slow digesting through the night

msktyshha
12-15-09, 11:38 pm
are there any good sources of casein other than cottage cheese or plain old casein powder...I just hate cotatge cheese please guys tell me about an alternaive

On Letting Go
12-16-09, 7:52 am
Milk protein is typically 80% casein 20% whey.

LayzieBone085
12-16-09, 8:26 am
Casein is not necessary, eat any protein source with fat and it will slow down the digestion.

Question.. why are you eating a food you do not like when you get the same results with foods you enjoy and they are included in your caloric intake for the day?

calories in = calories out. I would rather eat some steak instead of having a shake

GJN5002
12-16-09, 12:32 pm
Milk protein is typically 80% casein 20% whey.

This is what I generally buy for throughout the day use. Cold filtered too.




calories in = calories out. I would rather eat some steak instead of having a shake

While I agree on the steak, things arent as simple as cal in vs cals out.

LayzieBone085
12-16-09, 1:10 pm
While I agree on the steak, things arent as simple as cal in vs cals out.

Say an individual needs 2000 calories to grow, they eat 1500, they will lose weight.. Period. You have to meet a certain quota in order to gain/lose. If the individual is in a surplus or a defecit their body will change.

Beowulf
12-16-09, 2:04 pm
are there any good sources of casein other than cottage cheese or plain old casein powder...I just hate cotatge cheese please guys tell me about an alternaive

There are different styles of cottage cheese. Have you looked? Also, what about adding fruit?

GJN5002
12-16-09, 2:17 pm
Say an individual needs 2000 calories to grow, they eat 1500, they will lose weight.. Period. You have to meet a certain quota in order to gain/lose. If the individual is in a surplus or a defecit their body will change.

X eats 1500 cals of steak and Y eats 1500 of doughnuts, no difference in hormonal response? Wouldnt it be safe to say X would probably lose more fat and maintain more muscle?

7
12-16-09, 2:22 pm
X eats 1500 cals of steak and Y eats 1500 of doughnuts, no difference in hormonal response? Wouldnt it be safe to say X would probably lose more fat and maintain more muscle?

When it comes to losing weight, the same exact doughnut may elicit altogether different effects for different people. Weight loss is far more than just about calories in or "hormonal responses".

LayzieBone085
12-16-09, 3:59 pm
X eats 1500 cals of steak and Y eats 1500 of doughnuts, no difference in hormonal response? Wouldnt it be safe to say X would probably lose more fat and maintain more muscle?

and who is dumb enough to eat 1500 calories worth of doughnuts for an entire day?

If Y eats an adequate protein intake, gets his EFA's and fills in the rest with decent food choices and maybe a cookie here or there is it going to alter anything? Not at all.
You blow things out of porportion by getting all kcals from a stupid substance.

Still at 1500 calories and 500 calories under, he will lose weight.. hence the energy balance equation.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/dissecting-the-energy-needs-of-the-body-research-review.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/meal-frequency-and-energy-balance-research-review.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-fundamentals-of-fat-loss-diets-part-1.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-fundamentals-of-fat-loss-diets-part-2.html


Good reads ^^^

fenix237
12-16-09, 4:56 pm
all gjn is saying is that you have to have quality cals whether your cutting or bulking...

GJN5002
12-16-09, 5:11 pm
all gjn is saying is that you have to have quality cals whether your cutting or bulking...

thanks michelinman

layzie, you cant just say a car is a car. They both will get you somewhere but some can get you there faster or take you places another cant. Or we can use the analogy with gas, fill your tank up with regular or high test and the car performs differently. The body is no different, there is a myriad of pathways that open up when you eat certain food. I was being facetious when I said 1500 calories of doughnuts but dont doubt that there are people stupid enough to do that. i dont think I'm blowing anything out of proportion. If you want to say a calorie is a calorie, I'm simply pointing out a situation where this is not true. You couldnt argue that 40 calories of carbs is the same as 40 g of protein could you?

7
12-16-09, 5:18 pm
thanks michelinman

layzie, you cant just say a car is a car. They both will get you somewhere but some can get you there faster or take you places another cant. Or we can use the analogy with gas, fill your tank up with regular or high test and the car performs differently. The body is no different, there is a myriad of pathways that open up when you eat certain food. I was being facetious when I said 1500 calories of doughnuts but dont doubt that there are people stupid enough to do that. i dont think I'm blowing anything out of proportion. If you want to say a calorie is a calorie, I'm simply pointing out a situation where this is not true. You couldnt argue that 40 calories of carbs is the same as 40 g of protein could you?

It's even more complicated than this. Two people can get the same exact number of calories (same portions) from the same exact foods, but the outcomes could be very different. Question is, why?

LayzieBone085
12-16-09, 5:31 pm
thanks michelinman

layzie, you cant just say a car is a car. They both will get you somewhere but some can get you there faster or take you places another cant. Or we can use the analogy with gas, fill your tank up with regular or high test and the car performs differently. The body is no different, there is a myriad of pathways that open up when you eat certain food. I was being facetious when I said 1500 calories of doughnuts but dont doubt that there are people stupid enough to do that. i dont think I'm blowing anything out of proportion. If you want to say a calorie is a calorie, I'm simply pointing out a situation where this is not true. You couldnt argue that 40 calories of carbs is the same as 40 g of protein could you?




If Y eats AN ADEQUATE PROTEIN INTAKE, gets his EFA's and fills in the rest with decent/different food choices and maybe a cookie here or there is it going to alter anything? Not at all.
You blow things out of porportion by getting all kcals from One Substance



^^^^ Plese Re-Read

and also x2 to the statement above, you could put 2 people on 2000 calorie diets, have one that is a higher carb/lower fat and one a higher fat/lower carb and see 2 totally different body compositions due to how that individual handles different macronutrients.

Kryptonite
12-16-09, 9:32 pm
that sound good guys....make sense..casein at nigth since i wont eat till mornin..and whey first so it hits my body hard..cool...ok this question is probloy outa place..but whats the basics for carb cycling..i weitgh 180lbs ..how much carbs should ibe consumin..and is carb cyclyn for cuttin? thanks fellas!

When you wake up, whey. Post workout, whey. Replacing a meal, casein. Before bed, casein. But you don't have to go crazy. You can get a mixed protein powder, drink it when necessary and get similiar results.

As for carbs stick with a 1:1 ratio.
Ex. 300g protein, eat 300g carbs, and about 100g of (monounsaturated) fat.

To get a well-balanced diet, I follow this diet frame:
2 servings of protein.
1 serving of carbs.
1 serving (monounsaturated) fat.
1 serving of vegetables. (Green beans, spinach, lettuce.)
Ex.
8 oz chicken breast
8 oz yams
2 cups spinach (85g)
1 oz walnuts

Carb cycling is unecessary, especially if you are not cutting for a contest.

msktyshha
12-16-09, 9:46 pm
There are different styles of cottage cheese. Have you looked? Also, what about adding fruit?

yeah I know about different types bro but its just the cottage cheese it stings my throat i hate that ...thanx anyway i don't know what topic the rest of the guys are on. Milk is great but I would have to drink like 5 glasses to fulfill my protein requirement lol. Casein is important cause it stays longer in your body, just like oatmeals are a choice for carbs. Whey is just not ideal for a pre bed shake.

LayzieBone085
12-16-09, 10:19 pm
Whey + a fat source is perfectly fine,

Anything added to a protein,carb,or fat source will alter the speed of digestion and overall GI of the meal.

Casein isnt a magical substance, and people have been fine not taking casein for decades. Do you think pro's back in the day guzzled down casein or whey? no they derived off whole foods.

If you need a MRP, just take whey + crushed oats + pb and fruit if you want and guzzle it down.

Before bed Whey + PB + Milk = perfectly fine.. Milk = 80 Casein/20% Whey

Beowulf
12-17-09, 11:26 am
It's even more complicated than this. Two people can get the same exact number of calories (same portions) from the same exact foods, but the outcomes could be very different. Question is, why?

Microbiota, right?

GJN5002
12-17-09, 11:56 am
^^^^ Plese Re-Read

and also x2 to the statement above, you could put 2 people on 2000 calorie diets, have one that is a higher carb/lower fat and one a higher fat/lower carb and see 2 totally different body compositions due to how that individual handles different macronutrients.

Im not even sure what we're discussing at this point. I was refuting your claim that a calorie is a calorie and now you are telling me different kinds of cals yield different results. I guess we agree?

7
12-17-09, 12:00 pm
Microbiota, right?


I was refuting your claim that a calorie is a calorie and now you are telling me different kinds of cals yield different results.

Exactly. Some really interesting and novel research being done on that topic which has tremendous potential in the near future.

Same exact calories can yield different results.

GJN5002
12-17-09, 12:06 pm
Same exact calories can yield different results.

That has been my arguement.

7
12-17-09, 12:08 pm
That has been my arguement.

No, it hasn't. Your argument is not as nuanced.

GJN5002
12-17-09, 12:11 pm
No, it hasn't. Your argument is not as nuanced.

I have argued that a calorie is not just a calorie, it will have different effects on the body. If you somehow missed that, I have restated it for you.

7
12-17-09, 12:13 pm
I have argued that a calorie is not just a calorie, it will have different effects on the body. If you somehow missed that, I have restated it for you.

That part was all too obvious of course a calorie is not a calorie. Simplistic, if you will. While it is a bit more informed, it's not nearly as nuanced as it can be.