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GJN5002
02-12-08, 8:05 pm
Just got done reading an article suggesting 1.2-1.6g of protein per kg you weigh (take your weight in lbs divided by 2.2). That means that most of us who are eating way over 200 grams at a weight of about 200 lbs are eating way too much. Its says eating too much protein can supress protein synthesis and make protein uptake less efficient. Article cites the journal of strenght conditioning as the source. Im no scientist but it makes some sense but im curently pounding down about 250g a day at 195lbs. Anybody else read anything about this or have any knoweldge to share?

rocky36
02-12-08, 8:39 pm
Just got done reading an article suggesting 1.2-1.6g of protein per kg you weigh (take your weight in lbs divided by 2.2). That means that most of us who are eating way over 200 grams at a weight of about 200 lbs are eating way too much. Its says eating too much protein can supress protein synthesis and make protein uptake less efficient. Article cites the journal of strenght conditioning as the source. Im no scientist but it makes some sense but im curently pounding down about 250g a day at 195lbs. Anybody else read anything about this or have any knoweldge to share?

im no expert by any means but what i do kno is this.

1. i personally aim for 1.5 - 2.0 grams of protein per pound
2. im 205 and i avg. an intake of 400 grams of protein.
3. i see no negitive side effects of my intake yet.
4. i am assuming its pretty safe to say that as long as you active enough daily to breakdown the muscels, then a high amount of protein would be fine,
5. dont forget the sleep factor as well. no sleep = no gains

idk if that helps any but thats my 2 cents

pmug0000
02-12-08, 9:58 pm
I'm really not too worried about protein intake. I weigh 160lbs, and get nearly 350g protein per day. I'm having no kidney problems, I'm healthy, I feel good...
I know it is more protein than I need, but fuck it - I just love eating meat and cheese. Hasn't caused me any problems so far.

GJN5002
02-12-08, 10:24 pm
its not the health problems im talking about but decreased protein synthesis because there is too much protein and some must be converted to energy

stumblin54
02-12-08, 10:55 pm
Did the article mention who this was a suggestion for?

Stumblin

GJN5002
02-12-08, 11:03 pm
article was out of the latest issue of muscular development

pmug0000
02-12-08, 11:08 pm
its not the health problems im talking about but decreased protein synthesis because there is too much protein and some must be converted to energy

To be honest, I really don't give a shit about these articles; there is always some new study that is supposed to be a breakthrough in nutrition or training, but fuck these studies. I will believe what I see to be working, and what I see to be not working. Machine's article on eating for mass recommends 2g protein per pound of body weight, and Machine is fucking huge. Tiny recommends jacking the protein intake way up, and Tiny is a fucking beast. If these massive dudes say that eating 2 g protein per pound helped get them big, I'll take their word for it, and I'll try to emulate people who have had incredible results, rather than transforming my diet to conform to the latest study.

rev8ball
02-12-08, 11:12 pm
Most sports nutrition RDs will recommend up to 2g/kg bw for athletes. There were a few studies done in 06/07 that found anything over 2.4 may be wasted. However, I have recently seen one RD suggest for strength and power athletes as high as 2.6-2.8.

Excess protein won't cause health problems unless some are already pre-existing. It's this easy: if you need it, you'll use it; if you don't need it, you're wasting your money, and you may get fat.

adidas
02-13-08, 1:37 am
protein per Kg or lb recomemded is typically for "lean" muscle mass. "LEAN" muscle mass.

thats lean muscle mass..not total muscle mass. TYPICALLY. there is differnce here.

Tiny
02-13-08, 4:01 pm
its not the health problems im talking about but decreased protein synthesis because there is too much protein and some must be converted to energy

THAT is hilarious! First off, brother, if you were taking in way too much protein, you would be able to build muscle and lose bodyfat at the same time because protein is a mother for the body to process when it is in excess - you become a fucking incinerator. That is exactly how I approach precontest dieting and since I have utilized such a method - I put 25 pounds on my stage weight in 11 months. This year - look the fuck out; can't even begtin to speculate where I'll end up.

Wasteland
02-13-08, 4:06 pm
article was out of the latest issue of muscular development

Did it cite a study?

Tiny
02-13-08, 4:17 pm
One more little note: As I was growing, I did try lots of approaches and one thing was a constant - everytime I bumped the protein up another 50 grams, I developed additional muscle. Bump another 50 - more muscle acquired. To date I have put on 145 pounds.

Dozer
02-13-08, 4:23 pm
One more little note: As I was growing, I did try lots of approaches and one thing was a constant - everytime I bumped the protein up another 50 grams, I developed additional muscle. Bump another 50 - more muscle acquired. To date I have put on 145 pounds.

Same thing happens to me--once I hit a plateau, I add more protein, and I break through relatively quickly. I'm at around 2g per pound, and I'm just about to hit 180--and I've been growing just as fast if not faster as when I was under 2g.

Tiny
02-14-08, 7:34 am
Same thing happens to me--once I hit a plateau, I add more protein, and I break through relatively quickly. I'm at around 2g per pound, and I'm just about to hit 180--and I've been growing just as fast if not faster as when I was under 2g.

Yup, well these "studies" are truly a dime a dozen and some may shine the light across something in a new way which you can key into but many times you gota consider that what looks good on paper and makes sense to someone may not hold water in application. And the other thing to be aware of is they aren't rounding up 300 pound mountains of muscle for these studies, AND there is soooo much we do on a daily basis that may not be reproduced or mimicked in the studies. We drink a ton of water - we eat very frequently - some of us take some manner of digestive enzyme, lots of fibre, Animal Paks, just on and on.

ThickasabricK
03-09-08, 10:53 am
ok , here is a question , when i began weightlifting , i gained a lot .........without even thinking about how much i am eating , and precisely protein , i think i only ate about 50 grams if not less sometimes , i know a lot of other people too who did like this , actually almost nobody in the gym where i train eats like 1 gram per pound of bodyweight protein , and they gain , well not a lot but they do gain just like typical novices strating training , my question is this :

If we need that much protein to grow muscle then how did i gain when i started without paying attention to my diet ?


my second question is , WHY do we need that much protein , i just dont understand it yet , i mean my muscles recover always , even if i dont eat that much protein...et...

thanks guys

John-TNS
03-09-08, 11:23 am
Check out this thread here.... Should answer all of your questions.
http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=7096

ThickasabricK
03-09-08, 11:38 am
thanks man for the link but i already read it and i still dont understand the WHY of you know what i mean , why do we need excess protein to grow ??

let me tell u how i am seing it , we train , the muscle is teared , there is protein in the bloodstream , the muscle " catch it" and it is repaired , i have trained some time without eating that much protein and i never felt that my muscles didn't recover , ok the recovery is much better when i eat more protein but i dont understand the concept of WHY we need much more protein so that our muscles get bigger , what is the exact action that happens when we eat excess protein on size .

thanks again

BamBam
03-09-08, 11:50 am
What most people don't realize is that when you break down a muscle, the carbohydrates are what causes a muscle to grow and are also used in repair. The protein acts as a "bind" and holds the newly repaired muscle together...Its hard to explain on the computer...i wil try and show the video I saw this on...But I know what you are asking...I have done the same thing with not eating exactly 1-1.5 grams of protein per lbs of bodyweight and still seen gains...but...I dunno. I would ask one of the top dogs on here. Just to help ease your mind...but I will find you that vid..

ThickasabricK
03-09-08, 11:56 am
thanks bambam that video will be very helpfull i would like to have more informtion about what u mentioned , if you have any links or anything i can read or see please do post them .

BamBam
03-09-08, 12:01 pm
When I find the link I will post it ASAP.

Fury317
03-09-08, 1:29 pm
The reason you made such great gains is that, truth be told, you dont need to take in 1.5 or 2g of protein per lb of lean mass. RDA requirements are 1.4-1.8g/ kg lean mass. So take your weight in pounds, divide by 2.2 and then multiply that number by 1.4 or 1.8 (or somewhere in between) and technically thats all the protien an athlete needs. But then again the RDA for carbs for an athlete is 10g/kg lean mass. So take that same number (kilos of body weight) and multiply by 10 and thats the amount of carbs you should be taking in. Im about 90kg so I would need 900g carbs? I dont think so.

Basically, different people react to different nutrition. Maybe you dont need to be taking in a lot of food to make great gains. Personally, even on a bulk, I take in NO MORE than 1.5g of protein/lb. Thats how I grow best. Just find what works for you and stick with it.

A side point...I think too many people try to cram as much protein in their mouth as possible thinking it will only get them bigger. The digestive system can only handle so much. Youre story is proof that you dont need to pack in 400g of protein to grow....

sanga
03-09-08, 1:32 pm
I`d be interested to see that video myself as protein/amino acids are the building blocks, carbs are protein sparing and assist in keeping the body in the prsence of protein in postive nitrogen balance, take away the protein and just have the carbs and you have nothing, take away the carbs and keep the protein and you still grow.

Cstlfx
03-09-08, 1:42 pm
With a steady stream of protein constantly going through your system, it ensures that all possible healing will take place during the day. Sure, you will gain without having massive amounts of protein, but not as much as you would with eating protein all day.

Your body wont recover after one meal, its recovering constantly throughout the day. So that steady stream is allowing your body to grow and grow and grow, instead of just repairing itself and healing.

BamBam
03-09-08, 2:02 pm
The reason you made such great gains is that, truth be told, you dont need to take in 1.5 or 2g of protein per lb of lean mass. RDA requirements are 1.4-1.8g/ kg lean mass. So take your weight in pounds, divide by 2.2 and then multiply that number by 1.4 or 1.8 (or somewhere in between) and technically thats all the protien an athlete needs. But then again the RDA for carbs for an athlete is 10g/kg lean mass. So take that same number (kilos of body weight) and multiply by 10 and thats the amount of carbs you should be taking in. Im about 90kg so I would need 900g carbs? I dont think so.

Basically, different people react to different nutrition. Maybe you dont need to be taking in a lot of food to make great gains. Personally, even on a bulk, I take in NO MORE than 1.5g of protein/lb. Thats how I grow best. Just find what works for you and stick with it.

A side point...I think too many people try to cram as much protein in their mouth as possible thinking it will only get them bigger. The digestive system can only handle so much. Youre story is proof that you dont need to pack in 400g of protein to grow....

But Fury...you have to remember...you are a FREAK! haha. How is the pre-contest treating ya man? Hope everything is going good brotha' and see ya at your show! Holla at me..!

In IRON,
Josh

RenegadeRows
03-09-08, 2:06 pm
okay heres the deal, protein is the building blocks of all muscle tissue so if you want to grow you need protein, dig?
now...carbs are the fuel source for your body... and while bodybuilders say that you need 1-2g of protein/POUND of body weight, I have read studies by a medical board that says that 1-2g of protein per KILOGRAM is good for weight training and any additional is just excreted by the body. This is while taking 2-2.5g of carbs/lPOUND of what you weigh.

How do I know which is right? I dont... trial and error is the only way my brother...I have recently met up with a dietitian at my gym and she helped me get a good 6-7day mealplan with about 1.5g of protein per kilogram and about 400g of carbs. I figured I tried the 1.5-2g per pound thing and it did me good...now let me see what the 1.5-2g per kilogram thing does for me...

sanga
03-09-08, 2:16 pm
You know most people fuss and worry over all this stuff far too much, get the protein and carbs down, keep the fat low and adjust as needed, not growing? up the protein and carbs, getting fat? lower the carbs some.

Most people don`t grow as they are not eating enough protein and carbs which equate to calories but they should be good calories, eat every 3 hours at least, thats 6 meals a day 7 days a week, once you stop growing up the calories, use the mirror to tell if you are putting on too much fat and cut back if need be.

Seriously there is more to life than bodybuilding and worrying about diet/training etc, get the training done, rest and eat and enjoy your life.

Just an observation of what I see a lot at my gym, peoples life evolving around stressing whether they have everything in place all the time, chill and enjoy it all.

ThickasabricK
03-09-08, 2:37 pm
lol yes maybe i am stressing it a little bit , i will try and see what is best for me , i remember i grew a lot when i was eating like 1 g per lbs of bodyweight from red meat mostly i ate it all day in sandwiches of whole wheat bread , and damn i grew hehe. I think i will do it again . thanks anyway guys .

Mr.Totality
03-09-08, 2:51 pm
lol yes maybe i am stressing it a little bit , i will try and see what is best for me , i remember i grew a lot when i was eating like 1 g per lbs of bodyweight from red meat mostly i ate it all day in sandwiches of whole wheat bread , and damn i grew hehe. I think i will do it again . thanks anyway guys .

first and foremost make sure that most of your protein comes from whole food sources, then supplement with protein powder. the powder is always an extra

Fury317
03-09-08, 3:54 pm
But Fury...you have to remember...you are a FREAK! haha. How is the pre-contest treating ya man? Hope everything is going good brotha' and see ya at your show! Holla at me..!

In IRON,
Josh

Hey man I wasnt the one deadlifting 495 for reps at the ABC....speak for yourself haha.

Been good. Only a couple days left on this damn diet. Its rough- a lot harder than I thought. Down to 194 and Ill probably lose 5 more by comp...I feel about the size of an ant.

Sorry for taking this off topic lol....

Gazzara
03-09-08, 7:44 pm
The amount of protein that you actually can digest and process is a consideration. Most people can only digest less than half of the protein they take in. In that case you would need a lot. If your getting your protein from meat, then a digestive enzyme supplement would help. If it is from milk [or whey], then you probably could use more probiotics like the acidophilus in yogurt. With the high cost of protein you really want to be able to use most of what you are paying for. You don't want half of it to end undigested in your intestines, in which case you will be literally blowing it out your ass.

sanga
03-10-08, 4:25 am
first and foremost make sure that most of your protein comes from whole food sources, then supplement with protein powder. the powder is always an extra


100% spot on!

simpleguy
03-10-08, 5:04 am
I keep my protein intake higher when cutting than on a bulk... makes much more sense to me

if I eat 400-500 g carbs a day I won't need 400g of protein; I eat around 200-250 or so when bulking

but on a cut, when carbs go below 300, I bump my protein intake over 300; if lowering carbs I also up the fats

Tiny
03-10-08, 10:41 am
The reason you made such great gains is that, truth be told, you dont need to take in 1.5 or 2g of protein per lb of lean mass. RDA requirements are 1.4-1.8g/ kg lean mass. So take your weight in pounds, divide by 2.2 and then multiply that number by 1.4 or 1.8 (or somewhere in between) and technically thats all the protien an athlete needs. But then again the RDA for carbs for an athlete is 10g/kg lean mass. So take that same number (kilos of body weight) and multiply by 10 and thats the amount of carbs you should be taking in. Im about 90kg so I would need 900g carbs? I dont think so.

Basically, different people react to different nutrition. Maybe you dont need to be taking in a lot of food to make great gains. Personally, even on a bulk, I take in NO MORE than 1.5g of protein/lb. Thats how I grow best. Just find what works for you and stick with it.

A side point...I think too many people try to cram as much protein in their mouth as possible thinking it will only get them bigger. The digestive system can only handle so much. Youre story is proof that you dont need to pack in 400g of protein to grow....

Everything is relative - one guy made "gains" but how much, brother? AND, (I'm not getting in depth with this because anyone who has read anything on my own thread knows my approach to this already) you don't need mad amounts of protein to build muscle - there are OTHER reasons I need mad amounts of protein. I go over 2 grams per pound precontest and it works soooo wonderfully. I get bigger and leaner and I do minimal cardio and I eat MORE food in every way than when bulking. It takes less calories to bulk than to shred - the way I do it. And the way I do it it leaves me enormous on stage as opposed to sacrificing muscle. I diet on 7,000 cals and about 700 grams of protein (and nearly as many carbs) and I came in 1.4% 4 weeks out already with this method and felt great. Bulking? Well, honestly when I bulk, I don't actually count a whole lot of numbers but I take in FAR less in every way than when I diet. However, I am sure on a bad day I take in more protein than the RDA but that is required for ME.

Thrawn
03-10-08, 11:11 am
I can only tell my experience.
In the beginning growing was rather easy as i was a tiny shrimp anyway. I started out in april 2007 weighing in at 71 kg with 7.5% BF. Towards the end of 2007 i started slowing down in growth. I started eating more whole foods and kept supplements the same. Growing became easy again. I am now weighing in at 86kg with 6% BF so i added around 15 kg of mass in about 10 months. All the time i was eating about 2-2,5grams of protein for every kg of bodyweight. To this day it works like a charm and i am not even focussing that much on growing, i focus on my training and recovery.
I MUST admit that last month i had a very strange schedule for work which affected my training and eating pattern. It did have effect on recovery, not on gain as far as i have noticed.
Experiment with what works for you the best.

Universal Rep
03-10-08, 11:30 am
Protein serves many different functions. How much depends on your goals and what you want the protein to accomplish.

ironshaolin
03-10-08, 9:51 pm
A Letter To Parents Concerned About Their Teenager's Protein Intake.

By: John Berardi

Almost all long-term weightlifters have gone through it. In an effort to be proactive about our health, we go to the doctor for a routine check-up or to delve a little deeper into what's going on physiologically and wham!

The doc tells us that our kidneys are about to explode! And then, after the shocking news about our main filtration system, the doc lets us know that we may have had a heart attack! That's right, according to our doc, our high protein diets are about to kill us.

What in the wide, wide, world of amino acids is going on? After all, many of the well-educated and progressive sports nutritionists have been recommending higher protein diets for years.

And since researchers have demonstrated repeatedly that higher protein diets help maintain a positive nitrogen status in weight trainers and athletes, high protein diets can't be all that bad, can they?

» RELATED ARTICLE
Nitrogen Balance: The Key To Muscle Growth.
Any bodybuilder with a rudimentary understanding of the sport would know the key to gaining muscle is protein consumption. But how do we know if we are getting enough protein?
[ Click here to learn more. ]

Well, doctors often think so. And let's not make the mistake of thinking that these doctors are "idiots" or lost in the dark ages of medical practice, probably blood letting to release the evil humors. It's not that simple.

The truth of the matter is this: Weight training and higher protein diets do impact certain blood markers of health function, but it's my contention that in weight trainers, these markers aren't nearly as alarming as many general practitioners think.

Therefore, without further ado, I'd like to present a letter that all doctors and parents should read before taking an alarmist approach to a patient or teenage weightlifter's blood work.

This letter is inspired by the countless emails I've received over the last few years from frantic patients who have been told that their health is being jeopardized by their high protein diets when it's most certainly not!

For the adults in the audience, you certainly have the power and discretion to make your own choices with respect to your health. Unfortunately, many of the emails I get are from teens whose parents control the protein purse strings.

For them, it's not a matter of choice. Therefore, this letter is written in order that their parents are better able to understand the facts and make an informed decision.

ironshaolin
03-10-08, 9:53 pm
Dear Mom & Dad,

I appreciate that you're taking an interest in your child's health. The fact that you're questioning the assumptions inherent in the weight lifting community is commendable and hopefully will instill in your child the ability to question established norms and to verify the veracity of the claims issued by the self-proclaimed bodybuilding "gurus."

After all, blindly following - without proper discretion - what all the other "meatheads" are doing can definitely lead to problems.

In addition, I thank you for your objectivity in seeking out the truth (or the information that comes as close to the truth as we can currently get). It's difficult to remain objective in today's society where we are easily influenced by the moods and alarmist nature of our current media machine.

With respect to your concerns, no doubt brought on by the concern of a well-intentioned physician or by the results of clinical assessment (i.e. blood work), I'd like to address the relevant issues below.

ISSUE #1

Many physicians believe that high protein diets cause kidney dysfunction.

RESPONSE #1

This is FALSE according to everything science now knows to be true. This presumption states that if you take a healthy person and put them on a high protein diet, the protein will somehow negatively influence the kidney, damaging it and causing renal disease.

What Does Renal Mean?
Of, relating to, or in the region of the kidneys.

To this end, there is absolutely no data in healthy adults suggesting that a high protein intake causes the onset of renal (kidney) dysfunction. There aren't even any correlational studies showing this effect in healthy people.

Any studies that show a correlation between renal (kidney) dysfunction and protein intake are in those with some type of diagnosed, pre-existing renal (kidney) disease like diabetic nephropathy, glomerular lesions, etc. Even research into protein restriction for renal patients can be controversial. (Shils, Modern Nutr in Health & Dis, 1999).

Besides, you'll likely recognize a serious pre-existing kidney condition; the signs and symptoms will clue you in long before you happen upon it with a routine blood test (especially if there's a noted family history of diabetes mellitus and hypertension).

Since an exhaustive search of the published literature will likely not yield a single study showing that the amount of protein in the diet causes, or is correlated with, the onset of renal dysfunction in otherwise healthy individuals, the fact that this notion prevails is puzzling to say the least!

But even if a doctor were to find an obscure reference that might suggest a relationship between a high-protein diet and kidney disease, there are numerous studies showing otherwise. Here are a few of them:

1. Ann Intern Med 2003 Mar 18;138(6):460-7
The impact of protein intake on renal function decline in women with normal renal function or mild renal insufficiency.
Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC.

2. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2000 Mar;10(1):28-38
Do regular high protein diets have potential health risks on kidney function in athletes?
Poortmans JR, Dellalieux O.

3. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1999 Nov;23(11):1170-7
Changes in renal function during weight loss induced by high vs low-protein low-fat diets in overweight subjects.
Skov AR, Toubro S, Bulow J, Krabbe K, Parving HH, Astrup A.

4. Eur J Clin Nutr 1996 Nov;50(11):734-40
Effect of chronic dietary protein intake on the renal function in healthy subjects.
Brandle E, Sieberth HG, Hautmann RE.

5. Am J Kidney Dis 2003 Mar;41(3):580-7
Association of dietary protein intake and microalbuminuria in healthy adults: Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. "Dietary protein intake was not associated with microalbuminuria in normotensive or nondiabetic persons."

If you're interested, these studies can be accessed at www.pubmed.com.

ISSUE #2

Many physicians believe that because high protein diets can worsen the condition of those who already suffer from kidney dysfunction, it only stands to reason that this should be true in healthy people.

RESPONSE #2

This is also FALSE! Much of the speculation about kidney dysfunction associated with high protein diets comes from early nutritional studies in renal patients (patients who already have kidney disease).

In these individuals, when high protein diets are given as part of total parenteral nutrition - or tube feedings - these diets exacerbated their renal (kidney) problems. From these data, some physicians and nutritionists began to speculate (sometimes erroneously) that increased protein in the diet could be harmful to even those with healthy kidneys.

Total Parenteral Nutrition
Total parenteral nutrition (TPN), also called hyperalimentation, is the practice of feeding a person without using the gut. It is normally used during surgical recoveries.

It has been used for patients in coma, although enteric (tube) feeding is usually adequate, and less prone to complications. Chronic TPN is occasionally used treat people suffering the extended consequences of an accident or surgery.

Most controversially, TPN has extended the life of a small number of children born with nonexistent or severely birth-deformed guts. The oldest were eight years old in 2003.


While there are hundreds of studies showing that high protein dietsare bad for kidney patients, I believe that a "leap" from clinical patients to healthy patients isn't warranted. It's this leap that has been the cause of the persistent but slowly dying (sorry for the word selection) idea that high protein diets could harm the kidneys.

Again, there's no evidence whatsoever that high protein diets will harm the kidneys of a healthy weightlifter. This is about as ridiculous as someone suggesting that because eating certain types of fiber can worsen the GI symptoms of someone with irritable bowel syndrome, fiber must cause irritable bowl syndrome in otherwise healthy people.

ISSUE #3

Kidneys DO change to adapt to high protein diets.

RESPONSE #3

Some studies in healthy individuals do show an alteration of kidney function with very high protein diets. However, it's important to note that these changes are not reported as negative or "adverse." Instead, they seem to be structural adaptations to increased filtration (something the kidneys are doing all the time anyway).

If the kidney didn't respond this way, most clinicians would think something was wrong. Just like in weight training, tissues adapt to the demands put on them. Therefore, just because the kidneys have to "work" harder, doesn't mean that this is a negative thing.

After all, what happens when muscles work harder? Well, they adapt to the demands and become bigger, stronger, or more efficient. Therefore, the adaptation that kidneys undergo is reasonable and appropriate. But don't take my word for it, check out this study (again at www.pubmed.com):

1. Eur J Clin Nutr 1996 Nov;50(11):734-40
Effect of chronic dietary protein intake on the renal function in healthy subjects.
Brandle E, Sieberth HG, Hautmann RE.

ironshaolin
03-10-08, 9:54 pm
ISSUE #4

What about the increased creatinine and BUN indicated by the blood test?

RESPONSE #4

For starters, how about a quick discussion of the two markers?

Creatinine is commonly known as a waste product of muscle or protein metabolism. To this end, its level is a reflection of the body's muscle mass or the amount of protein in the diet. Low levels are sometimes seen in kidney damage, protein starvation, liver disease, or pregnancy.

Creatinine
Creatinine is a breakdown product of creatine phosphate in muscle, and is usually produced at a fairly constant rate by the body (depending on muscle mass).

It is mainly filtered by the kidney, though a small amount is actively secreted. Creatinine is not reabsorbed. If the filtering of the kidney is deficient, blood levels rise. This effect is used as an indicator of renal function.

However, in cases of severe renal dysfunction, the creatinine clearance rate will be overestimated because the active secretion of creatinine will account for a larger fraction of the total creatinine cleared. Men tend to have higher levels of creatinine because they have more skeletal muscle than women.


Elevated levels are sometimes seen in kidney disease due to the fact that a damaged kidney will not remove creatinine from the body as it should. Also, elevated levels are seen with the use of some drugs that could impair kidney filtration. Finally, elevated levels could also be seen with muscle degeneration, a high protein diet, or creatine supplementation.

With respect to creatinine measurements, it's important to note that the amount of creatinine in the blood is regulated by the amount being produced (from protein degradation - muscle or dietary) vs. the amount that's being removed (by the kidney).

Therefore, although creatinine in the blood could be a marker of a damaged kidney's inability to filter creatinine out of the body at a normal rate, it could also be a marker of rapid protein degradation (via muscle damage from weight training or from a high protein intake).

Think of the blood as a sink. If you turn on the faucet at a low rate, the amount of water going into the sink and the amount leaving the sink should balance each other out, leading to a predictable amount of water in the sink at any moment. However, if you partially plug the drain, you'll get more water accumulating in the sink at the same faucet flow rate.

This is similar to kidney dysfunction (thinking of the water as creatinine). However, alternatively, if the drain remains unplugged but you crank up the faucet flow rate, you'll get more water in the sink due to the higher flow. This is similar to a high protein diet.

Since weightlifters are continually breaking down muscle protein (this is a good thing), even in the absence of a high protein diet, blood creatinine concentrations tend to be elevated. Furthermore, add in a higher protein diet and creatinine concentrations in the blood will rise.

Finally, since creatinine is also a breakdown product of creatine, if a weightlifter is taking creatine supplements (which most do), blood creatinine concentrations will also be high. What all of this means is that the faucet is turned up in weightlifters, not that the drain is plugged.

To address the other relevant measure, the nitrogen component of urea, blood urea nitrogen (BUN), is the end product of protein metabolism and its concentration is also influenced by the rate of excretion (as is creatinine). Excessive protein intake, kidney damage, certain drugs, low fluid intake, intestinal bleeding, exercise, or heart failure can cause increases in BUN.

BUN Testing
The blood urea nitrogen (BUN) test is a measure of the amount of nitrogen in the blood that comes from urea. Urea is a substance secreted by the liver, and removed from the blood by the kidneys.

The most common cause of an elevated BUN, azotemia, is due to renal failure. This can be due to a temporary condition such as dehydration or shock.


Decreased levels may be due to a poor diet, malabsorption, liver damage, or low nitrogen intake. Excess BUN is even more closely correlated with protein intake than is creatinine. The same argument above applies here.

So, as you can see, since both creatinine and BUN are correlated with both high protein metabolism AND kidney function, I'm not suggesting that it's unreasonable that doctors are worried about the kidneys of your son or daughter.

But it's important for you and your doctor to realize that the increases in BUN and creatinine seen in healthy weightlifters who eat higher protein diets aren't necessarily a function of kidney health but are much more closely correlated with their diet and training.

Tiny
03-11-08, 7:44 am
Very interesting letter and appreciate the thought behind posting it but again - EVERYONE has to do their own research and decide for themselves what is acceptable or "right" in their own interests and health. BECAUSE there are supposedly only about 1,000 truly world class physiques (from a bodybuilding standpoint) walking the planet, there are no medical studies done which any aspiring young muscle-head can look to for clear, conscise and absolute guidance. But it has always been this way, and where athletes have gone and come to their own conclusions, usually about a decade afterward, medical literature backs up. It's kind of like walking on another planet - you can sit on Earth and ask for the thoughts and reasonings of scientists or what have you, or you can look to folks who have already been there or perhaps are currently residing there and conducting everyday life. In the end, it becomes YOUR responsibility as it is YOUR life and health. A fool might base his every proceeding on the words of another man but a wiser man might seek out all the knowledge he can acquire and analytically arrive at his own conclusion - even though it may be identical to what the former decides upon. So, the "letter" is good stuff and touches on a lot of key ideas which to any intermediate trainer should not be news - but even there, it is not the entire story. For instance, normally when "we" have excessive protein present in our urine (a sign that yes these molecules supposedly too large to pass through the kidneys have indeed done so) it does indicate something which needs further investigation - high (and not even THAT high) blood pressure will push protein past the kidneys readily in a person with high protein intake, AND, normally, high levels of protein in the urine can represent impending renal failure. Then, you would be tested over a 24 hour period to determine HOW MUCH protein is being passed and that would shed light upon wether this was an erroneous marker or a valid warning. Also, simply carrying around excessive muscle tissue is enough to ellivate your creatinine level on a blood test and could therefore be considered "normal" for such a person - you need not be supplementing creatine or even consuming lot of red meat. Best advice is research, perhaps experiment, and decide for yourselves because in the end it is your health.

getbiggest
03-11-08, 8:05 am
me personally i take in 500grams protein,250 grams carbs and 50 grams fats while being 250lbs 19%bf and ive been packing on muscle while leaning out and have seen no negative side effects

Tiny
03-11-08, 8:07 am
me personally i take in 500grams protein,250 grams carbs and 50 grams fats while being 250lbs 19%bf and ive been packing on muscle while leaning out and have seen no negative side effects

And believe it or not, with a little more carbs, you would probably see an even more drastic response - leaner and bigger.

RenegadeRows
03-11-08, 8:09 am
nicely said tiny... good post iron...

BTW, how long have you been on the high protein thing tiny? Did it do you bad? what are YOUR thoughts on taking high protein and kidney dysfunction?

krazyassmexican
03-11-08, 8:11 am
it's like bulldog used to say in his articles, opinions are like ass holes, everybody has one

so guys find what works for you
dont be afraid of trial and error

Gazzara
03-11-08, 8:34 am
....It is true that if you already have a kidney problem, extra protein will make it worse. It's like being a diabetic and eating too much sugar. My daughter was diagnosed with kidney failure when she was 9 and started dialysis at 12 when her kidney function was about 25%. We kept her on a very low protein diet and dialysis was easy and less frequent, but she stayed skinny. It was a trade-off.
...She is 30 now, works out regularly, looks great, and competed in a figure contest. Now that she does her own dialysis at home 5 days a week, she tries to get as much protein as possible since she can clear it out. By the way, every time she does it she sticks herself with 2 needles about the size of pen refils. Now that's an animal.
...I was a kidney doner about 15 years ago and cut my protein way back, stopped eating meat, thought I was giving the remaining kidney a break. I did not lose strength, but I did not get stronger. About 4 years ago I finally bumped it up to 150-200 grams of protein a day and got my best max lifts. I always seem to maintain with 50 grams of protein a day, but I never really get stronger unless I boost up the protein.

ironshaolin
03-11-08, 8:42 am
Very interesting letter and appreciate the thought behind posting it but again - EVERYONE has to do their own research and decide for themselves what is acceptable or "right" in their own interests and health. BECAUSE there are supposedly only about 1,000 truly world class physiques (from a bodybuilding standpoint) walking the planet, there are no medical studies done which any aspiring young muscle-head can look to for clear, conscise and absolute guidance. But it has always been this way, and where athletes have gone and come to their own conclusions, usually about a decade afterward, medical literature backs up. It's kind of like walking on another planet - you can sit on Earth and ask for the thoughts and reasonings of scientists or what have you, or you can look to folks who have already been there or perhaps are currently residing there and conducting everyday life. In the end, it becomes YOUR responsibility as it is YOUR life and health. A fool might base his every proceeding on the words of another man but a wiser man might seek out all the knowledge he can acquire and analytically arrive at his own conclusion - even though it may be identical to what the former decides upon. So, the "letter" is good stuff and touches on a lot of key ideas which to any intermediate trainer should not be news - but even there, it is not the entire story. For instance, normally when "we" have excessive protein present in our urine (a sign that yes these molecules supposedly too large to pass through the kidneys have indeed done so) it does indicate something which needs further investigation - high (and not even THAT high) blood pressure will push protein past the kidneys readily in a person with high protein intake, AND, normally, high levels of protein in the urine can represent impending renal failure. Then, you would be tested over a 24 hour period to determine HOW MUCH protein is being passed and that would shed light upon wether this was an erroneous marker or a valid warning. Also, simply carrying around excessive muscle tissue is enough to ellivate your creatinine level on a blood test and could therefore be considered "normal" for such a person - you need not be supplementing creatine or even consuming lot of red meat. Best advice is research, perhaps experiment, and decide for yourselves because in the end it is your health.


Nice add-on bro. The letter I posted isn't supposed to represent my exact feeling on the subject, just give some good examples and site some good studies you can look up and research. The whole point was just to show that higher levels of protein aren't necessarily THAT detrimental to your health, as some folks would try to have you believe. Now granted, I believe that too much of ANYTHING isn't good for you, so if you weight 180lbs and are consuming 400+grams of protein daily, you may be able to step back a bit. I typically judge protein intake on how I feel. If its a heavy workout day, and I'm beaten up, I might go as much as 400g's. Off days, maybe around 300-350 or so. I've found for my body type, which is like the opitime of endomorphs, I need to consume the majority of my calories from protein, and right now I'm really only having carbs around my workout.

RenegadeRows
03-11-08, 8:44 am
dude sorry to hear about your daughter...Glad she is on top though! and glad you are pulling through well also!

right now I am at 225lbs with about a 12%bf and I am taking in 245-250g protein (complete and incomplete...I am taking the incomplete in combination with the complete to make it whole as suggested by our pro Tiny) and about 300g of carbs and the muscle and weight I can throw around are piling up like freakin crazy. I drink in a gallon of water (maybe 16oz more) daily and my pee is colorless even after taking the pak.

My advice to all would be wash down 4 of your meals with 32oz of water and consume about 32oz when you workout....1.25gallons of water right there.

Tiny, thanks for your advice on combining incomplete with complete protein bro, you rock!

getbiggest
03-11-08, 1:58 pm
And believe it or not, with a little more carbs, you would probably see an even more drastic response - leaner and bigger.

thx man ill add 50grams every other week and see what happens

Imran
06-04-08, 5:29 pm
Hy Bros,

I m currently suffering problem in my Knees. Earlier I had a problem in my back for which I have already seen an osteopath with very little improvement. I have been training quiet consistently now for 3-4 years with last year and half regualar squatting and deadlifting. I am only 24 and weight b/w 220-230. On my training days my protein intake is b/w 450 to 550 and on non training days its round about 400gms. Somebody said to me that I m taking too much protein that might have caused a problem in my knees or joints. In addition to that I would like to mention that I have been eating 18 to 20 whole eggs everyday with the highest 36 in a day; can that be a contributing factor?
I need your opinion bros.

Thanks

mde42k
06-04-08, 5:42 pm
Try a joint supplement, I couldn't see how protein could cause that. Are you going ass to the ground squats?

SQUAT or DIE!
06-04-08, 5:46 pm
flex= knee saver for me.... give the joint supps a try..

i dont see how protein can cause that problem...

Imran
06-04-08, 5:52 pm
Sorry guys forgot to tell ya that I am doing powerlifting and my natural tendency on squat is to ge below parallel. I am current taking Gloucosomine Sulphat 4 tablets in a day but I am still feeling a pain. Going to c physio soon but these were just few things somebody said to me about protein which I myself don't believe.

Thanks

SQUAT or DIE!
06-04-08, 5:55 pm
yeah i PL too so i know the deep squat as well.. well give flex a try, i had my physical therapist reccomend a joint supp after my surgeries and its helped my shoulders and knees..

Imran
06-04-08, 5:59 pm
Thanks bro,

What is flex? Not really too much into supplements being training naturally so far with just only protein and creatine and rest all diet. Last week my knee was really bad with no sqaut for the last couple of weeks b4 that and no training 4 last 5 days and I was literally limping on the work place on last wedneday and would you believe on that day I had almost 34 whole eggs. I don't know where is the problem and what caused it.

Thanks

SQUAT or DIE!
06-04-08, 6:05 pm
its a joint supp.. an amazing one, my knees dont bother me anymore, and my shoulders are much better in everyway since ive started takin it...

http://www.animalpak.com/html/sections.cfm?id=60

Imran
06-04-08, 6:12 pm
Thanks bro. Oh yeah that just came to my mind that's animal flex. that looks good. I will give it a try.

Thanks once again for your help and support.

Cheers

SQUAT or DIE!
06-04-08, 6:15 pm
no problem bro good luck

Cellerator65
06-04-08, 6:37 pm
flex= knee saver for me.... give the joint supps a try..



x2... got tendonitis in both my knees and i now have no pain thanks to flex

Imran
06-04-08, 6:50 pm
Thanks bro. I will definitely try Animal Flex. I just read about it and it sounds good. Its just the amount of damage which I have done by squatting twice a week and along with deadlifting. I haven't been able to squat for a last six months now and somebody asked me on a night out that my upper body is quiet big but my legs are weak and small. It really sucks bro; this comment of him has really pissed me off since then.

Thanks once again.

simpleguy
06-05-08, 12:11 am
your bones are mostly made of protein and calcium... now I'm not talking about joints, but still I don't see how can protein be bad

DG33
03-30-09, 2:47 pm
I know this is probably the most generic question on this forum but how many grams of protein should I be taking daily? I weigh in about 210

On Letting Go
03-30-09, 3:00 pm
At least 1g per lb of bodyweight. Most people will suggest 1.5 - 2g per lb of bodyweight, which is fine, especially for trying to put on mass.

Just keep in mind the 1g per lb is the minimum. For you, thats 210g protein daily.

OLG

Beowulf
11-17-09, 1:52 pm
Start with a number, then monitor the progress. Don't just pick a number and stick to it blindly.

FewL4no1
11-17-09, 6:29 pm
After taking my personal training course, it was recommended in the book (Advanced Concepts of Personal Training: http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Concepts-Personal-Training-National/dp/0979169607 ) that a person consume no more than 2g of protein/kg of body weight to ensure you are not harming your kidneys. 1.3 to 1.8 was for athletes, and 1.8 to 2.0 was the specified range for bodybuilders and power-lifters.

But, as others have stated, this is a baseline number, and studies are inconclusive on this data. I myself was skeptical of this. I'd say if you are exceeding this limit and have concerns, go to your doctor and get blood work done.

Do I believe this is something you should worry about? No. I also have always been told 2g of protein/lb of body weight. Do I believe this as well? Not really. It's all in how your body responds, and how much you really need to maintain sufficient growth. Just remember, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

NJC_Manhattan
03-30-10, 12:22 pm
Talked with a guy at my gym who had an alarming story of stomach ulcers, kidney issues, and intestinal issues stemming from too much animal/whey protein.

At first I thought the guy may have been on something not found over the counter, but he claimed not to be. Next I thought his diet might be total shit, but it wasn't. Then I thought it could be some kind of food borne illness, but this guy had a note, yes a note, from his doctor that excused any kind of 'unintentional bodily function' that may occur due to his weakened stomach.

Though I always do my own research before jumping to conclusions, this really set me back. I mean, I--like many of you--crush protein throughout the day (3-4 scoops of whey, BCAAs, EAAs, animal protein, egg protein, nut protein, bean protein, etc.) and I have noticed sometimes I get stomach cramps.

Talked with a nutritionist that promotes a full vegan lifestyle. This guy was fucking jacked. I don't know how, but he was built. Yet, he doesn't eat meat... Not even eggs. He says he gets all his protein from vegs, nuts. I am very skeptical on this person, but his logic was sound.

Some articles about protein:
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50900Ge

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/protein-full-story/index.html#protein_alike

I guess my question is, what is your take on protein intake? Would be great if you could back it up with evidence as well, so ya boy NJC doesn't have to go searching on the internet for an hr and then call up/go see some expert to try and get free advice.

NaturalTrainee
03-30-10, 12:32 pm
Every meter is for the best. I slightly alter my protein intake daily and try to alternate the sources from meat to peanut butter. I also avoid too much red meat, on some rare occassions I may eat twice a day, other than that I eat it 2-3 times a week.

mritter3
03-30-10, 12:50 pm
i dont have research or anything like that going for me....but i sit around 195lbs most of the year, i drink 2 real gains shakes per day, i eat 6-8 whole eggs every morning, i have at least 1 meal per day that consists of red meat, and the other is usually chicken, i also drink at Least 1 gallon of water per day, my wife on the other hand is a Registered/licensed Dietician...and a vegetarian, she gets her protein sources from beans, legumes, tofu, pasta, and soy products....like i said I dont have the research or background, but my wife does she is licensed and registered...she is not a Nutritionist who doesnt have a degree...(nutritionists are not licensed nor registered with the ada)...that is why they are called a nutritionist and Not a Registered and Licensed Dietician, not to say that all Nutritionists are not educated, but my wife has done her research on this very topic on how much protein we actually need, and its not a lot, i dont have the numbers obviously, i have heard her mention that you can have a lot of kidney and digestive issues if you are taking in extreme amounts of protein, but if you are an active person who drinks enough water, those are very extreme happenings and very rare happenings....just my 2 cents.

sunny_max
03-30-10, 1:07 pm
this is very interesting....i wld like to see what kinda theories ppl come up with and learn more about it........cause me i take about 1-2 serving of red meat a day and aout 12 whole eggs a day.......not counting 3-4 scoops of whey!!

msktyshha
03-30-10, 2:22 pm
I take in around 300gs of protein per day, people around me do tell me that I am overdoing it, and that eating so much and especially meat isn't healthy for you, but that's what they think. They are the ones who only eat 2 or 3 times a day, and have ordinary bodies. I guess in order to be EXTRAordinary you have to take extraordinary measures. extra ordinary doesn't mean a freakish looking body, capability to go to gym 5 times a week and lift hard and having a body like an athlete is also extra ordinary.

violator
03-30-10, 3:07 pm
NJC - that first link didnt work...??

regarding ur homie thats all fuct up...his condition seems rather extreme...didnt he notice it over a period of time, like a couple months?...or did it just pop up all of a sudden?
Maybe he has allergies to these products?, or digestive issues?....all im saying is that ive never heard of a case like that before & i like the rest of you know many cats who take in excessive protein... if ur worried about ur own health, go get checked out...but remember, ur mind can play tricks on you & start the same symptoms this guy had...

personally, ive done every dosage under the sun, all the way up to 2.2gs p/lb...funny thing is, ive found i dont get any additional benefit from more than 1g p/lb, even if im using heavy supplement stacks & training really hard...so i stick to 1g & it works for me...(& thats per LEAN lb as well)...

another thing is that those muscle rags(and some sites) are misleading to natural BBers who dont know any better & want to emulate the pros... the use of AAS puts one in a different ballpark...

PORTERHOUSE
03-30-10, 3:39 pm
Protein is absolutely essential without question, but is also vastly over emphasized and overused by people who don't completely understand what is necessary and what is over kill.

GJN5002
03-31-10, 10:36 am
Protein is absolutely essential without question, but is also vastly over emphasized and overused by people who don't completely understand what is necessary and what is over kill.

I agree, I'm taking in about 200- 215 grams a day of quality protein. I used to do 300g+.

Carrnage
12-11-11, 3:53 pm
And mention why aswell, a logical explanation to your protein intake.

Carrnage
12-11-11, 3:56 pm
Ill start things off by......

My protein intake is at 1lb per pound of lean bodymass, no more(ever), and no less.

Why?

Because I understand how the human body functions/works, thats why.

When I first started training I use to be believe in the more is better concept, my protein intake was around 1.5 to 2 x my freakin bodyweight. Now and years went by, im alot smarter, my protein intake is where it needs to be, gains are fucking rapid.

Polk17
12-11-11, 3:59 pm
Ill start things off by......

My protein intake is at 1lb per pound of lean bodymass, no more(ever), and no less.

Why?

Because I understand how the human body functions/works, thats why.

When I first started training I use to be believe in the more is better concept, my protein intake was around 1.5 to 2 x my freakin bodyweight. Now and years went by, im alot smarter, my protein intake is where it needs to be, gains are fucking rapid.

Out of curiosity, why do you say no more ever... If you are taking in lean protein, then what does it hurt to have more?

Solid Dreams
12-11-11, 4:19 pm
Your body can only use a certain amount of protein, and it's basically wasting it.

I do 1 gram per pound of LBM, trying to lose weight. When I go on my bulk, I'll probably do 1-1.25 of my actual body weight.

Polk17
12-11-11, 4:38 pm
I am asking the question knowing & understanding that if you can only assimilate a certain amount, that you are wasting what isn't assimilated, but if it's lean, then what does it hurt? Because I like to eat meat, and I like lean meat... So cooking a steak, and eating 4-5 oz. of a it isn't happening... My question is what does it hurt if it is lean meat...

I have an opinion about this, just curious what others' opinion about it is...

Noob Saibot
12-11-11, 5:17 pm
I aim for 1 per pound as well. I was finding that more than that was just messing with my stomach and digestion. Also since I became less focused on protein (although still very important obviously) I've become much more aware of the greatness of carbs and fat!

Carrnage
12-11-11, 6:42 pm
I am asking the question knowing & understanding that if you can only assimilate a certain amount, that you are wasting what isn't assimilated, but if it's lean, then what does it hurt? Because I like to eat meat, and I like lean meat... So cooking a steak, and eating 4-5 oz. of a it isn't happening... My question is what does it hurt if it is lean meat...

I have an opinion about this, just curious what others' opinion about it is...

It doesnt hurt to take in lean meat lol.

Taking in excess amounts does.

Why put something in your body that it doesnt need? Why waste it? But I guess thats the whole point of this thread.

Carrnage
12-11-11, 6:44 pm
Your body can only use a certain amount of protein, and it's basically wasting it.

I do 1 gram per pound of LBM, trying to lose weight. When I go on my bulk, I'll probably do 1-1.25 of my actual body weight.

You still bulk and cut? Why not both? IMPOSSIBLE!! lol, pm me if you need guidance.

Polk17
12-11-11, 7:05 pm
It doesnt hurt to take in lean meat lol.

Taking in excess amounts does.

Why put something in your body that it doesnt need? Why waste it? But I guess thats the whole point of this thread.

What does you average meal look like?

Solid Dreams
12-11-11, 9:39 pm
You still bulk and cut? Why not both? IMPOSSIBLE!! lol, pm me if you need guidance.

Right now I'm trying to see where I am before I start really nailing calories and stuff. I'm at 13.5%, I've still got a ways to go before I feel comfortable with a bulk or whatever. I know its possible to do both, I'm growing at a crazy rate, but that's because I havent lifted in awhile and my muscles are soaking everything in.

Carrnage
12-12-11, 2:26 am
What does you average meal look like?

5 whole eggs
Green Veggies

or

Chicken worth of 25-35g of protein
Green Veggies
1 Serving of Walnuts

Carbs are used for what they are suppose to be used for. Just in case you were wondering where my carbs are.

violator
12-12-11, 3:08 am
when im trying to add mass ill do 1g p/lbm lean mass.... i just dont see any benefit from more than this, it just ends up in the toilet bowl...

when dieting il do 1.5g... because im not gettin as many carbs in...so it helps with total calories.

Polk17
12-12-11, 7:04 am
Carbs are used for what they are suppose to be used for. Just in case you were wondering where my carbs are.

Care to explain? What are they suppose to be used for?

Tron
12-12-11, 9:50 am
Care to explain? What are they suppose to be used for?

Carbs are the body's preferred energy source. It is not the most efficient seeing as fat is 9 k-calories of energy as opposed to 4 for carbohydrates, but the body prefers those. If the body cannot get enough energy from carbohydrates it will steal from protein (a lot of times stolen from your lbm) and your stored fat. This is why the body has a muscle-loss-preventative effect from consuming proteins and carbohydrates and why a lot of times when bodybuilders cut without adequate carbs they look flat then pop when carbohydrates are consumed.

Carrnage
12-13-11, 1:51 pm
when im trying to add mass ill do 1g p/lbm lean mass.... i just dont see any benefit from more than this, it just ends up in the toilet bowl...

when dieting il do 1.5g... because im not gettin as many carbs in...so it helps with total calories.

Atta Boy!! Love the way you think!

Carrnage
12-13-11, 1:52 pm
Care to explain? What are they suppose to be used for?

Serious?

Hmm

Alright, first you tell me in your own opinions on what carbs are used for. Then ill give ya the facts, unless you give me facts!

Carrnage
12-13-11, 1:54 pm
Carbs are the body's preferred energy source. It is not the most efficient seeing as fat is 9 k-calories of energy as opposed to 4 for carbohydrates, but the body prefers those. If the body cannot get enough energy from carbohydrates it will steal from protein (a lot of times stolen from your lbm) and your stored fat. This is why the body has a muscle-loss-preventative effect from consuming proteins and carbohydrates and why a lot of times when bodybuilders cut without adequate carbs they look flat then pop when carbohydrates are consumed.

Very misleading post.

Healthy fats will be your best friend if you know how to use them right and the right time.

Polk17
12-13-11, 2:32 pm
Serious?

Hmm

Alright, first you tell me in your own opinions on what carbs are used for. Then ill give ya the facts, unless you give me facts!

Yes serious... Not serious in a respect where I am clueless, but I've seen a lot of your posts on here, and most of them you have an extremely different outlook and view on things than is popular belief, so instead of prompting you and having you give your opinion in a way that looks like you are talking in a condescending manner, and that pissing me off, I just wanted to hear your opinion on it without having you "correct" someone...

And I am not trying to be a dick, I am just curious, I have my own personal opinions about a lot of things, all of which are based on personal experiences, trial & error, or listening/reading information from someone who would know, i.e. Kiefer, Berardi, etc...

At the end of the day, for 99.9 % of us, all we have is our opinions... I am always open to learning, which is why I asked you that question... Because if the avg. meal above is one you use for a Bulk/Cut, then you and a lot of people might have a different view on exactly what Carbs are used for...

Carrnage
12-14-11, 2:12 am
Yes serious... Not serious in a respect where I am clueless, but I've seen a lot of your posts on here, and most of them you have an extremely different outlook and view on things than is popular belief, so instead of prompting you and having you give your opinion in a way that looks like you are talking in a condescending manner, and that pissing me off, I just wanted to hear your opinion on it without having you "correct" someone...

And I am not trying to be a dick, I am just curious, I have my own personal opinions about a lot of things, all of which are based on personal experiences, trial & error, or listening/reading information from someone who would know, i.e. Kiefer, Berardi, etc...

At the end of the day, for 99.9 % of us, all we have is our opinions... I am always open to learning, which is why I asked you that question... Because if the avg. meal above is one you use for a Bulk/Cut, then you and a lot of people might have a different view on exactly what Carbs are used for...

Sorry but when you have so many clients/people emailing you/people private messedging me 24/7, I end up talking like "I know it all".

Ill admit it, I dont!

I just like to throw facts instead of opinions.

If I have a opinion ill state it otherwise.

Sorry that I got you angry and made your body release cortisol lol.

Polk17
12-14-11, 8:37 am
Sorry but when you have so many clients/people emailing you/people private messedging me 24/7, I end up talking like "I know it all".

Ill admit it, I dont!

I just like to throw facts instead of opinions.

If I have a opinion ill state it otherwise.

Sorry that I got you angry and made your body release cortisol lol.

Ok, first off you didn't get me angry... Second, I too work with a bunch if people and correspond with them daily, and have had success with implementing what I have felt to be best... Here is an example of my point about fact & opinion... The majority of what ppl have read or heard (and believed it to be FACT) about diet and nutrition is that Breakfast is the most important meal of the day... A lot of extremely well-educated and successful trainers and athletes, including myself at one point, have eaten breakfast and (while following a thought out plan) had a lot of success... Now I just read the Carb-Backloading Book, written by a very educated and successful John Kiefer, who says you should skip breakfast and uses a lot of scientific info & experience to prove this to be a FACT...

I have always thought a fact was something that was true and could be universally agreed on... And I have had success doing both methods... I am Back-Loading now, and can tell you that I am leaner, stronger, bigger, and have more energy than I did before I started... Breakfast is supposed to give you energy and make you mentally alert, but I skip it and I have plenty of energy, I'm mentally sharp, and my workouts are great...

My point is, there is no way that both methods are facts... They are both methods, and opinions, that work when followed correctly... I'm not doubting you know your shit, you obviously do, your big, strong, and lean, and you help people which is great... I just simply wanted to hear what you had to say about a topic, and I don't particularly care to be talked to in a condescending manner, especially when you don't know what I do or don't know about anything...

And you still haven't answered my question...

Carrnage
12-14-11, 4:12 pm
Ok, first off you didn't get me angry... Second, I too work with a bunch if people and correspond with them daily, and have had success with implementing what I have felt to be best... Here is an example of my point about fact & opinion... The majority of what ppl have read or heard (and believed it to be FACT) about diet and nutrition is that Breakfast is the most important meal of the day... A lot of extremely well-educated and successful trainers and athletes, including myself at one point, have eaten breakfast and (while following a thought out plan) had a lot of success... Now I just read the Carb-Backloading Book, written by a very educated and successful John Kiefer, who says you should skip breakfast and uses a lot of scientific info & experience to prove this to be a FACT...

I have always thought a fact was something that was true and could be universally agreed on... And I have had success doing both methods... I am Back-Loading now, and can tell you that I am leaner, stronger, bigger, and have more energy than I did before I started... Breakfast is supposed to give you energy and make you mentally alert, but I skip it and I have plenty of energy, I'm mentally sharp, and my workouts are great...

My point is, there is no way that both methods are facts... They are both methods, and opinions, that work when followed correctly... I'm not doubting you know your shit, you obviously do, your big, strong, and lean, and you help people which is great... I just simply wanted to hear what you had to say about a topic, and I don't particularly care to be talked to in a condescending manner, especially when you don't know what I do or don't know about anything...

And you still haven't answered my question...

"And you still haven't answered my question"

If you didnt write that I would of, but now I feel disrespected.

wehh wehh wehhhh

rev8ball
12-14-11, 8:12 pm
Okey dokey, guys, I think everything has been said that needed to be said. Let's move along......

Seath308
12-15-11, 2:01 am
I try to get as close as I can to 1.5 times my Bodyweight in protien a day. BW is around 300 so Close to 450 Grams a Day is around how much I take in. Plenty of people say that is extreme but they don't squat 860 Raw or have a 2000+ pound Raw Total lol.

Polk17
12-15-11, 7:43 am
I try to get as close as I can to 1.5 times my Bodyweight in protien a day. BW is around 300 so Close to 450 Grams a Day is around how much I take in. Plenty of people say that is extreme but they don't squat 860 Raw or have a 2000+ pound Raw Total lol.

I 100% agree... And I like meat too much to not ear a lot if it...

Carrnage
12-15-11, 6:16 pm
I try to get as close as I can to 1.5 times my Bodyweight in protien a day. BW is around 300 so Close to 450 Grams a Day is around how much I take in. Plenty of people say that is extreme but they don't squat 860 Raw or have a 2000+ pound Raw Total lol.

300 pounds of what though? Whats your bodyfat? You shouldnt count how much fat you carry when your figuring out your macronutrients. Thats why lean body mass would be optimal and make sense.

But then again people dont squat 860 raw or have a 2000+ pound Raw Total

Big C
12-15-11, 6:22 pm
Subbed.

Carrnage
12-15-11, 6:54 pm
I 100% agree... And I like meat too much to not ear a lot if it...

Nothing wrong with eating meat!

Carrnage
12-15-11, 6:55 pm
Subway is good.

yep

Big C
12-15-11, 8:13 pm
yep

LOL I didn't say that....but I wouldn't disagree, although I eat it sparingly. Good discussion in here, and yes I love me some protein.

Seath308
12-15-11, 9:58 pm
300 pounds of what though? Whats your bodyfat? You shouldnt count how much fat you carry when your figuring out your macronutrients. Thats why lean body mass would be optimal and make sense.

But then again people dont squat 860 raw or have a 2000+ pound Raw Total

I'm not a Bodybuilder by no means but I'm not no fat shit Powerlifter either. lol Last time I had my Bodyfat check(By a Doctor) was about a month ago I was s14-15%. I like carrying around the extra bodyfat lol I am Sponsored by this company becasuse I am one of the best Raw Powerlifters. What I do works for me. taking in 1.5 of my actual bodyweight Brought my Tiny 1700 pound total up to 2000 in about a year.

B.S.
12-15-11, 10:40 pm
I'm not a Bodybuilder by no means but I'm not no fat shit Powerlifter either. lol Last time I had my Bodyfat check(By a Doctor) was about a month ago I was s14-15%. I like carrying around the extra bodyfat lol I am Sponsored by this company becasuse I am one of the best Raw Powerlifters. What I do works for me. taking in 1.5 of my actual bodyweight Brought my Tiny 1700 pound total up to 2000 in about a year.

255 lbm is no joke for a natty

Carrnage
12-17-11, 6:02 pm
I'm not a Bodybuilder by no means but I'm not no fat shit Powerlifter either. lol Last time I had my Bodyfat check(By a Doctor) was about a month ago I was s14-15%. I like carrying around the extra bodyfat lol I am Sponsored by this company becasuse I am one of the best Raw Powerlifters. What I do works for me. taking in 1.5 of my actual bodyweight Brought my Tiny 1700 pound total up to 2000 in about a year.

Can I talk you into bringing that down to 1.0 to your lean body mass?

haha lol just messin

But why count bodyweight? Thats like counting your lean body mass with a extra backpack on you.

Im not into the whole powerlifting scene but who in your opinion is the strongest powerlifter in the world?

Carrnage
12-17-11, 6:03 pm
255 lbm is no joke for a natty

And supposively hes 21. This guy must look like Jay Cutler....unless hes like 6'6 or something.

Amazing.....MONSTER STATUS!

Seath308
12-17-11, 7:42 pm
Can I talk you into bringing that down to 1.0 to your lean body mass?

haha lol just messin

But why count bodyweight? Thats like counting your lean body mass with a extra backpack on you.

Im not into the whole powerlifting scene but who in your opinion is the strongest powerlifter in the world?

I train with and talk to Stan Efferding frequantly and when I asked him how much Protein I should take in he recommend 1.5-2 Times actual body weight.

In geared powerlifting David HOFF is king. 2965 pound total at the bw of 275. In Raw powerlifting ( my style) Stan Efferding 2226 pound raw total with just a belt on.

Carrnage
12-17-11, 8:45 pm
I train with and talk to Stan Efferding frequantly and when I asked him how much Protein I should take in he recommend 1.5-2 Times actual body weight.

In geared powerlifting David HOFF is king. 2965 pound total at the bw of 275. In Raw powerlifting ( my style) Stan Efferding 2226 pound raw total with just a belt on.

....ughh

He told you that? Your natty right? Did Stan give you a logical reason? Or he just straight up said "take in 1.5-2 times your actual bodyweight"?

But what do I know Stan is a strong mofo right!??!!? lol

Hope you get the point my big monster friend!

Seath308
12-17-11, 9:02 pm
But what do I know Stan is a strong mofo right!??!!? lol


Exactly! LOL

I mean if it not broken don't fix it. I have put 210 pounds on my squat 85 on my Bench and 125 on my deadlift since I started Stan's 1.5 Times Protien Diet a day. My Body feels amazing and I am the happiest I have ever been with the way my body looks.

BigChrisF
12-17-11, 11:45 pm
I train with and talk to Stan Efferding frequantly and when I asked him how much Protein I should take in he recommend 1.5-2 Times actual body weight.

In geared powerlifting David HOFF is king. 2965 pound total at the bw of 275. In Raw powerlifting ( my style) Stan Efferding 2226 pound raw total with just a belt on.

Minor note: Dave weighed 279 and totaled 2960 with 1200/965/795. Still quite monstrous. Goes to show you what great talent, great training, and great supplementation can achieve.

Carrnage
12-18-11, 4:22 pm
Exactly! LOL

I mean if it not broken don't fix it. I have put 210 pounds on my squat 85 on my Bench and 125 on my deadlift since I started Stan's 1.5 Times Protien Diet a day. My Body feels amazing and I am the happiest I have ever been with the way my body looks.

And your really 21!!??!

Damn boy!!! You must have been destroying kids in high school lol! Where were your numbers back in high school if you dont mind me asking? How tall are ya too? You is a monsta!

Seath308
12-18-11, 5:15 pm
And your really 21!!??!

Damn boy!!! You must have been destroying kids in high school lol! Where were your numbers back in high school if you dont mind me asking? How tall are ya too? You is a monsta!

Yes sir 21 Graduated high school 2008. In high school I did geared powerlifting =-/ Should have trained raw no reason for a highschool kid to train in gear. My single ply numbers in high school were 650 Geared (550 Raw) Bench 445 Geared (345 Raw) Deadlift 505 Raw. I didn't train Raw as much as I should have. I am 5' 11''

Back To Basics
12-18-11, 6:05 pm
Seath literally ate the kids he was going to school with... That's why his lifts have gone up so much.

Enforcer
12-18-11, 6:10 pm
I eat alot of protein during the day, thats all I know, got to fuel the machine

Meal 1: 8 egg whites, 5 ounces of sirloin
Meal 2: 6 ounces of chicken, 4 egg whites
Meal 3: 14 ounces of sirloin
Meal 4; 12 ounces of chicken
Meal 5: 60 grams of Iso Whey
Meal 6: 12 ounces of chicken