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View Full Version : Round 1-2: Torrent vs. Science



Universal Rep
10-17-08, 12:08 pm
I just started reading up on the new (2008) ISSN paper... For those of ya who don't know, that's the International Society of Sports Nutrition--the leading body. Some smart minds right there. They just issued their official position on "Nutrient Timing"--pre-, intra-, and post-workout nutrition. Some conclusions:

- "Daily post-exercise ingestion of a CHO + PRO supplement promtes greater increases in strength and improvements in lean tissue and body fat % during regular resistance training."

- "Addition of Cr to a CHO + PRO supplement in conjunction with regular resistance training facilitates greater improvements in strength and body composition as compared with when no Cr is consumed."

- "The universal findings of these studies suggest that adding some combination of CHO (50 - 75 g) to a PRO source (20 - 75 g) while completing heavy resistance training facilitates an increase in the development of lean mass and overall improvements in body fat %."

For the record, Universal's Torrent is all about PRO + CHO. Torrent has creatien in it. Lastly, Torrent has 20g of PRO and 52g of CHO, both of which are within the ISSN recommended guidelines.

Looks like science confirms what we Torrent users have known all along.



PRO = protein
CHO = carbs
Cr = creatine monohydrate

FeelthePain
10-17-08, 12:15 pm
Torrent is awesome ... and now the science behind it is backed by the ISSN

Nice Job!

ionicrod
10-17-08, 12:19 pm
torrent is probably one of the best supplements on the market right now (in my lowly opion) , but it seems no one knows about it. Anytime someone aske me what i am taking, that is usally one of my first answers. Torrent has made a lot of changes to my physique since i added it to my regime. Universal was spot on when making this supplement (but when are they not?) Torrent is some awesome stuff, hopefully it will start to catch on with people.

Universal Rep
10-17-08, 12:21 pm
Torrent is awesome ... and now the science behind it is backed by the ISSN

Nice Job!

It's hard to beat the one-two combo of science and real world results... Oh, and free Torrent samples (http://www.universalnutrition.com/torrent/).

Universal Rep
10-17-08, 12:22 pm
torrent is probably one of the best supplements on the market right now (in my lowly opion) , but it seems no one knows about it. Anytime someone aske me what i am taking, that is usally one of my first answers. Torrent has made a lot of changes to my physique since i added it to my regime. Universal was spot on when making this supplement (but when are they not?) Torrent is some awesome stuff, hopefully it will start to catch on with people.

My guess is it's the most popular PWO supp at BB.com... I think a lot of fellas know about it brother...

J-Dawg
10-17-08, 12:47 pm
I just started reading up on the new (2008) ISSN paper... For those of ya who don't know, that's the International Society of Sports Nutrition--the leading body. Some smart minds right there. They just issued their official position on "Nutrient Timing"--pre-, intra-, and post-workout nutrition. Some conclusions:

- "Daily post-exercise ingestion of a CHO + PRO supplement promtes greater increases in strength and improvements in lean tissue and body fat % during regular resistance training."

- "Addition of Cr to a CHO + PRO supplement in conjunction with regular resistance training facilitates greater improvements in strength and body composition as compared with when no Cr is consumed."

- "The universal findings of these studies suggest that adding some combination of CHO (50 - 75 g) to a PRO source (20 - 75 g) while completing heavy resistance training facilitates an increase in the development of lean mass and overall improvements in body fat %."

For the record, Universal's Torrent is all about PRO + CHO. Torrent has creatien in it. Lastly, Torrent has 20g of PRO and 52g of CHO, both of which are within the ISSN recommended guidelines.

Looks like science confirms what we Torrent users have known all along.



PRO = protein
CHO = carbs
Cr = creatine monohydrate

Backed by science but most importantly, real world results.

TheDarkHalf
10-17-08, 1:00 pm
Can any of you guys speak to using an ALA supplement with Torrent? I've been doing some research into ALA and was wondering what your thoughts were on combining ALA with torrent and how much would have to be ingested to be effective.

Universal Rep
10-17-08, 1:01 pm
Can any of you guys speak to using an ALA supplement with Torrent? I've been doing some research into ALA and was wondering what your thoughts were on combining ALA with torrent and how much would have to be ingested to be effective.

Why exactly are you using ALA? For what specific reason?

TheDarkHalf
10-17-08, 1:09 pm
Why exactly are you using ALA? For what specific reason?

Well from what i've read - ALA can increase your pump, prevent fat accumulation, increase amino acid transport (as well as creatine transport), and increase insulin sensitivity.

I'd be using it to mimic insulin basically (and all of the aforementioned), which ALA has been shown to do. It allows more glucose to be shuttled into your muscles instead of fat (due to increasing the Glut-4 receivers on the outside of your muscle cells). And since the number of Glut-4 receptors has increased, more glucose can be absorbed by your muscles.

Haven't started using it yet, was considering it though. Just wanted to hear some thoughts since I would take this with my torrent.

sanga
10-17-08, 2:11 pm
I don`t think you can beat Torrent PWO when not on keto that is and I use it when I`m not on keto, great product, lovely taste (Cherry) no bloat or gas.

Just got to try the Apple one soon.

calcaneous
10-17-08, 2:37 pm
I love my postworkout shake combo:

Green apple torrent
Watermelon EAA
M-stak.

born0withno0soul
10-17-08, 4:05 pm
i have never openly bragged about a supplement until torrent. i recommend it to anyone who listens. not for universal, but so new people can get a real supplement that will give real results.

ionicrod
10-31-08, 2:59 am
My guess is it's the most popular PWO supp at BB.com... I think a lot of fellas know about it brother...

that is true. but where i am at, most people do not even know what Universal or Animal is. I am the only person in both of the gyms i go to, who drinks an intra, or even pwo drink. Most accuse me of doing something illegal when they see me with my amino tech.

rev8ball
10-31-08, 3:09 am
I just started reading up on the new (2008) ISSN paper... For those of ya who don't know, that's the International Society of Sports Nutrition--the leading body. Some smart minds right there. They just issued their official position on "Nutrient Timing"--pre-, intra-, and post-workout nutrition. Some conclusions:

- "Daily post-exercise ingestion of a CHO + PRO supplement promtes greater increases in strength and improvements in lean tissue and body fat % during regular resistance training."

- "Addition of Cr to a CHO + PRO supplement in conjunction with regular resistance training facilitates greater improvements in strength and body composition as compared with when no Cr is consumed."

- "The universal findings of these studies suggest that adding some combination of CHO (50 - 75 g) to a PRO source (20 - 75 g) while completing heavy resistance training facilitates an increase in the development of lean mass and overall improvements in body fat %."

For the record, Universal's Torrent is all about PRO + CHO. Torrent has creatien in it. Lastly, Torrent has 20g of PRO and 52g of CHO, both of which are within the ISSN recommended guidelines.

Looks like science confirms what we Torrent users have known all along.



PRO = protein
CHO = carbs
Cr = creatine monohydrate


Good stuff!
This is one of the articles that I cited in my lit review on my research thread. Four of the listed authors presented it at the NSCA conference. These guys really know what they are talking about.....

ralf_snake
11-02-08, 8:17 pm
Why hello down there everyone!

Hey come up here to the year 2008 where we already know Torrent is great.

TheDarkHalf
11-02-08, 10:33 pm
Why hello down there everyone!

Hey come up here to the year 2008 where we already know Torrent is great.

I think you're a poet, wouldn't ya know it?

Universal Rep
02-10-09, 9:47 am
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/161

Study above gives us some guidance as to how much protein we should be consuming postworkout. That amount is 20g, which according to researchers is "sufficient to maximallystimulate MPS" after lifting. It suggests that anything more is beyond "maximal" levels. Torrent uses 20g of protein but the difference is that the study above used egg protein, whereas Torrent uses WPH, a much more efficient form of protein. So the 20g of WPH in Torrent should be more than enough (answering the many questions that people ask about whether or not Torrent has enough protein).

sportsfan4110
02-10-09, 1:11 pm
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/161

Study above gives us some guidance as to how much protein we should be consuming postworkout. That amount is 20g, which according to researchers is "sufficient to maximallystimulate MPS" after lifting. It suggests that anything more is beyond "maximal" levels. Torrent uses 20g of protein but the difference is that the study above used egg protein, whereas Torrent uses WPH, a much more efficient form of protein. So the 20g of WPH in Torrent should be more than enough (answering the many questions that people ask about whether or not Torrent has enough protein).

nice post U-Rep. i was always a little worried about the 20g of protein not being enough but i always stuck to it... but now i know that it is enough so now im not as worried... another reason torrent is the best post workout drink ever!

mritter3
02-10-09, 1:14 pm
bar none.........torrent is the best post workout supp. out there. PERIOD!

Wasteland
02-20-09, 9:56 am
I'm reading the NSCA's paper on nutrient timing as it applies to heavy resistance training. I wanted to cite a few interesting observations.

First, there has long been a debate about the value and efficacy of whole foods vs. supplements. Is using a post-workout supplement superior to eating a whole food meal? Though this paper does not definitely answer the question once and for all, the researchers do note that with respect to nutrient timing, "supplements [essential amino acids] do indeed 'work better' than whole foods."

Second, the researchers suggest that "essential amino acids plus carbohydrate is the best way to promote skeletal muscle protein accretion". This applies to both pre-workout and for the purposes of this conversation here, post-workout.

rev8ball
02-20-09, 10:34 am
Nutrient-wise, your body is able to break down what it needs (aminos, etc.) whether the meal is solid or liquid. That being said, most sport dieticians will suggest to athletes a liquid post workout meal vs a solid one mostly on the idea of it being "easier" to digest, that is, a liquid meal is easier to tolerate after an intense workout verses having solid food sit in your stomach.

Wasteland
02-20-09, 10:39 am
Nutrient-wise, your body is able to break down what it needs (aminos, etc.) whether the meal is solid or liquid. That being said, most sport dieticians will suggest to athletes a liquid post workout meal vs a solid one mostly on the idea of it being "easier" to digest, that is, a liquid meal is easier to tolerate after an intense workout verses having solid food sit in your stomach.

That's right. A shake is suggested for convenience, among other things. Still, a shake can get absorbed more efficiently than a whole food meal. The NSCA makes this recommendation for both pre- and post-workout.

Universal Rep
06-16-09, 1:20 pm
Does Torrent have enough protein for post-workout? See this...

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/161

20 grams.

Coupla interesting observations here. First, this gives us some guidance as to how much protein we should be consuming postworkout. That amount is 20g, which according to researchers is "sufficient to maximallystimulate MPS" after lifting. It suggests that anything more is beyond "maximal" levels.

Also interesting is that Torrent uses 20g of protein. The difference is that the study above used egg protein, whereas Torrent uses WPH, a much more efficient form of protein. So the 20g of WPH in Torrent should be more than enough (answering the many questions that people ask about whether or not Torrent has enough protein).

The study may also give us some ideas about that age old question--how much protein can I utilize in one sitting? Anyways, food for thought fellas.

Wasteland
06-16-09, 1:52 pm
Does Torrent have enough protein for post-workout? See this...

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/161

20 grams.

Coupla interesting observations here. First, this gives us some guidance as to how much protein we should be consuming postworkout. That amount is 20g, which according to researchers is "sufficient to maximallystimulate MPS" after lifting. It suggests that anything more is beyond "maximal" levels.

Also interesting is that Torrent uses 20g of protein. The difference is that the study above used egg protein, whereas Torrent uses WPH, a much more efficient form of protein. So the 20g of WPH in Torrent should be more than enough (answering the many questions that people ask about whether or not Torrent has enough protein).

The study may also give us some ideas about that age old question--how much protein can I utilize in one sitting? Anyways, food for thought fellas.

Nice find on the AJCN study Universal Rep.

TheDarkHalf
06-16-09, 2:24 pm
the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability....

Then maybe it would be even more beneficial to throw down a pack or two of nitro 20min prior to that shake?

Universal Rep
06-16-09, 2:46 pm
the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability....

Then maybe it would be even more beneficial to throw down a pack or two of nitro 20min prior to that shake?

Could, but at some point I gotta think it's overkill... For MPS post-workout, you can use ffEAAs or WPH or intact proteins, though I'd think standalone ffEAAs are the most efficient (as opposed to the WPH in Torrent which is combined with other goodies)...

TheDarkHalf
06-17-09, 10:57 am
Could, but at some point I gotta think it's overkill... For MPS post-workout, you can use ffEAAs or WPH or intact proteins, though I'd think standalone ffEAAs are the most efficient (as opposed to the WPH in Torrent which is combined with other goodies)...

To further my hypothesis......

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/72/1/106?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&title=carbohydrates+amino+acids+&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/nutrition;130/10/2508?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&title=carbohydrates+amino+acids+&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/72/1/96?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&title=carbohydrates+amino+acids+&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

rev8ball
06-17-09, 12:08 pm
Check out post #25:

http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=14062&highlight=confessional&page=2

TheDarkHalf
06-17-09, 1:04 pm
Check out post #25:

http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=14062&highlight=confessional&page=2

Great read! Can you speak to the types of individuals these results came from?

Would it be safe to assume that one should structure the pre, intra, and post nutrients as a part of their daily macros?

rev8ball
06-17-09, 1:33 pm
Great read! Can you speak to the types of individuals these results came from?

Would it be safe to assume that one should structure the pre, intra, and post nutrients as a part of their daily macros?


The various investigations studied several types of athletes in the environment of high intensity exercise lasting at least an hour.

You should include these in your daily macros; however, they need to be a priority in these counts.

Universal Rep
06-17-09, 1:40 pm
Check out post #25:

http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=14062&highlight=confessional&page=2

Why check it out? Let's repost it right here:

"A popular research topic in the modern Sport Science studies has been pre- and post- training nutrition, and their effects on performance. However, more recent research has focused on intra-workout nutrition as well. This review will touch on all three.

Before proceeding further, one must understand the concept of Net Protein Balance. Net Protein Balance (NPB) equals Muscle Protein Synthesis (MPS) minus Muscle Protein Breakdown (MPB), or NPB = MPS - MPB. And for muscle repair to occur, NPB must be positive, that is, MPS > MPB. And though MPS does increase with resistance training, it is not enough to be greater than MPB. NPB can only be positive when some sort of protein is consumed in conjunction with resistance training. Phillips et al JACN 2005.

Pre-workout nutrition has been discovered to be as important, if not more, than post. In several recent studies, the consumption of plain water, a carbohydrate (CHO) drink, a whole protein and CHO drink, and an Essential Amino Acid (EEA) and CHO drink was analyzed. The results were that with the consumption of 6g of EEA, along with 35g of CHO, stimulated the greatest amount of net protein synthesis, and that this combination is significantly superior to the other fluids. More importantly, however, is that NPS is superior when this combination of EEA and CHO is consumed prior to exercise as compare to when consumed after exercise. Tipton et al AJP 2001.

For intra workout nutrition, the consumption of 6g of EEA with 35g of CHO, independent of the pre-workout meal, presents several major benefits: a greater decrease in Cortisol; the greatest effect on Insulin release post exercise; the greatest effect on Testosterone release during exercise; and the greatest decrease in Muscle Protein Breakdown up to 48 hours post exercise. It also boosts the anabolic effect of resistance training to greater extent vs. CHO or EEA independently. Byrd et al 2006. Also, during glycolysis, carbohydrate ingestion helps with the maintenance of intramuscular glycogen stores due to greater glycogen resynthesis during resistance training: muscle glycogen stores are used during repeated bouts of anaerobic activity. When a particular set is discontinued, the glycogen stores attempt to reload, up to the commencement of another bout of exercise, in which the glycogen stores are activated once again. The consumption of 4-8g/mL of CHO provides adequate CHO for glycogen maintenance during exercise without gastric emptying distress.

In regards to post workout, both casein and whey protein are very rich in EEAs and BCAAs. Since casein clots in the gut, it delays gastric emptying, thereby exhibiting a slower release of aminos. Whey is soluble, allowing for a faster gastric emptying, and therefore a more rapid release of aminos. It had been thought that consuming casein with whey post workout would delay the absorption of whey, minimizing the effectiveness of its rapid release of aminos. However, a major find is that consuming casein and whey together will not negatively affect the absorption of each individually. In fact, the combination of both, such as in milk, seems to improve their absorbability, and will actually provided protein synthesis 4-9 times better and for longer period of time post workout than casein or whey individually. Bilsborough et al IJSNEM 2006.

At least 15g of whole protein is needed in order to get at least 6g of EAAs post workout. However, the effectiveness ceiling may be 40g.

Also, though no study has definitively concluded a specific ratio of CHO and protein post workout (2:1, 4:1, etc.), research has concluded that the aforementioned protein must be consumed in conjunction with a CHO in a ratio greater than 1:1 in order to maximize the absorbability of both the protein and the CHO. And, since glucose is not insulin dependent post workout, a combo of CHO/PRO will also provided for greatest storage of glycogen, as well as a greater insulin response. Ivy et al JAP 2002, Van Loon et al AJCN 2000.


Summarized by Michael S. Palmieri, CSCS, USAW, from the NSCA National Conference 2008 symposiums presented by:
•Jose Antonio, PhD, CSCS, FACSM, FNSCA, FISSN
•Jeffrey Stout, PhD, CSCS, FNSCA
•Joseph Weir, PhD, FNSCA
•Joel Cramer, PhD, CSCS, FNSCA
•David Sandler, MS, CSCS*D, FNSCA"

Universal Rep
06-17-09, 1:41 pm
To further my hypothesis......

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/72/1/106?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&title=carbohydrates+amino+acids+&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/nutrition;130/10/2508?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&title=carbohydrates+amino+acids+&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/72/1/96?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&title=carbohydrates+amino+acids+&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=10&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Sorry DH, don't have a lotta time to run down the abstracts... Could ya summarize briefly?

Mr. Dead
06-17-09, 1:49 pm
A lot of great info in here...

TheDarkHalf
06-17-09, 4:00 pm
Sorry DH, don't have a lotta time to run down the abstracts... Could ya summarize briefly?

Not a problem, slow day at work =D

Basically, insulin responses and glycogen synthesis are positively correlated to the amount of CHO + PRO + AA present in post exercise nutrition. However, doubling the dose of the amino acid and protein mixtures that were presented in the abstract provided a greater rise in insulin response. This in turn should yield a greater MPS post exercise, since MPS may be dependent upon amino acid availability.

But I would speculate that one could over do it with AAs - any harm in that? I've followed some AA overdose logs (such as G's) and have read nothing but good things from those that have chosen that route. Maybe even speculate that it's better to over do it with AA than to under do it. I would love to see a study that would look into the maximum amount of AAs an individual could consume and what the benefits and/or drawback would be.

Also, I'd like to note from one of the abstracts that glycogen synthesis can also be accelerated by simply doubling the amount of CHO in your post exercise nutrition. Makes sense to me!

Wasteland
06-17-09, 4:26 pm
But I would speculate that one could over do it with AAs - any harm in that? I've followed some AA overdose logs (such as G's) and have read nothing but good things from those that have chosen that route. Maybe even speculate that it's better to over do it with AA than to under do it.

One can definitely "overdo" it with AA. But the issue isn't about "harm" per se as it is about "waste" or "excess" (see my bold in passage below). Are you familiar with the studies on free form EAA? Some have actually looked into it and come up with some numbers. I don't have these off the top of my head, but I recall it being in the teens or low twenties.

As for upper limits of protein intake, post-workout, here is a study which provides some guidelines. It was done on weightlifters and it dealt with protein synthesis:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/161

"Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation."

Also, while not "harm" per se, with intact proteins, excess AA means excess caloric intake as well--something to think about for the dieting bodybuilder.

TheDarkHalf
06-17-09, 4:36 pm
One can definitely "overdo" it with AA. But the issue isn't about "harm" per se as it is about "waste" or "excess" (see my bold in passage below). Are you familiar with the studies on free form EAA? Some have actually looked into it and come up with some numbers. I don't have these off the top of my head, but I recall it being in the teens or low twenties.

As for upper limits of protein intake, post-workout, here is a study which provides some guidelines. It was done on weightlifters and it dealt with protein synthesis:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/1/161

"Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation."

Also, while not "harm" per se, with intact proteins, excess AA means excess caloric intake as well--something to think about for the dieting bodybuilder.

Good point. That's what I meant at the time....I meant more of a waste than harm. I have not seen those studies on the ffEAAs, but am definitely interested in reading them and will do a search for them. Good call on the extra calories as well, I feel that's something that a lot of people that supplement with ffEAAs generally don't factor into their equations.

Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation. - isn't this based on the individual? Not the irreversible oxidation, but the rate at which protein can be assimilated.

Wasteland
06-17-09, 5:11 pm
Good point. That's what I meant at the time....I meant more of a waste than harm. I have not seen those studies on the ffEAAs, but am definitely interested in reading them and will do a search for them. Good call on the extra calories as well, I feel that's something that a lot of people that supplement with ffEAAs generally don't factor into their equations.

Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation. - isn't this based on the individual? Not the irreversible oxidation, but the rate at which protein can be assimilated.

Yes, for me it's mostly about wastage (oxidation/conversion to urea). Regarding calories, where it gets tricky is trying to calculate them for ffAA. Intact protein is pretty straightforward, obviously.

Take a look at the literature on EAA and weightlifters. It's all pretty recent (last 9 years) and that body of work is growing.