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View Full Version : Training for width myth? Disagreement everywhere



MojoMike36
01-06-09, 9:47 pm
So I'm flipping through a very popular BBing mag. One of the more reputable ones. Not too many adds and it does offer some decent advice.

Theres this big page spread on training for V taper. It stresses wide grip pull ups as the king of width. Meanwhile I've been putting on great width Neutral Close Grip pulldowns and Neutral pullups. This article raves about it and has all these quotes/advice from clearly unnatural BBers raving about acquiring their taper from wide grips.

This seems so counter to the in gym truth to me but could the majority of people be wrong and the magazine correct? I hardly believe anything I read ever. I'm a big skeptic and only a believer in basic principles of old school lifting and good old fashion hard work.

I feel wide grips in the inner lats and back. I feel narrow grips in my outer lats big time. I'm not going to change my exercises in my split I'd just like to know which one is accomplishing which. I have a width back week and a thickness back week on an A week B week cycle split.

Can anyone offer some insight on this?

Maharg
01-06-09, 9:49 pm
Its backwards in the muscle world. Wide grip curls hits more inner bicep, while close grip hits more outer biceps. Same holds true for pull ups. A close grip hits more outer lats then widegrip. Keep doing what your doing bro.

Psycho77
01-06-09, 9:53 pm
If you see good progress with what you're doing, then just keep doing it.

I don't believe everything I read either. Just absorb most info I get and give it a shot. If I see results, then I stick to it,not then just mix it up again.

MojoMike36
01-06-09, 11:37 pm
Its what I figured but this article spread scared me a little and made me question my tactics.

They just throw these pictures up of guys with stupid big V-taper and they all claim wide grips were their best weapon for building their taper. I guess they have no self respect or pride.

GJN5002
01-07-09, 10:22 am
I think the only thing a wide grip pullup is good for is hurting the tator cuffs. I dont go much wider than my shoulders anymore. i agree, opposties-close grip = wide back

MeanStreet
01-07-09, 8:40 pm
imo just wider that your shoulder behind the head pull ups = wide lats

sanga
01-08-09, 8:35 am
Ok imagine your lats are elastic bands, now when are they the most stretched? Close grip!

But wide grip pull ups hit the lats from a diferent angle, hanging from a chinning bar stretching also hits the lats well.

Personally I do both wide and narrow and do extreme stretching by hanging from a chinning bar with weight attached to my waist.

theharjmann
01-08-09, 8:57 am
How's this for thought:

Dorian Yates...6 time Mr Olympia....arguably with one of the best backs, if not THE best back ever hardly did wide grip stuff.

He preached heavy rowing. He did pulldowns, but preferred underhand close grip stuff. I'm sure he did wide grip stuff aswell, but did not preach by it. Just heavy pulling, rowing and deadlifts for years, coupled with rest and food will get you the back of your dreams!

I'm working on it....long way to go though!

sanga
01-08-09, 9:13 am
Agreed with the best back ever, don`t forget the heavy deadlifts too.

NickSP
01-08-09, 10:25 am
Its backwards in the muscle world. Wide grip curls hits more inner bicep, while close grip hits more outer biceps. Same holds true for pull ups. A close grip hits more outer lats then widegrip. Keep doing what your doing bro.

IMO there's a big difference, there are two separate heads to the bicep whereas the lats run somewhat horizontally and then up to the top of the arm so to say there's an inner and outer lat is like saying there's an inner and outer chest, which IMO it doesn't work like that. But that's just me I know a lot don't agree.
But anyway like someone said if you like neutral grip, why would anything make you change if it's working for you? Personally I go kinda wide, probably a couple inches beyond shoulder width and I love it.


Its what I figured but this article spread scared me a little and made me question my tactics.

They just throw these pictures up of guys with stupid big V-taper and they all claim wide grips were their best weapon for building their taper. I guess they have no self respect or pride.

Again, no reason to question your tactics if they're working. And woah, no offense but where the hell do you get off telling people they have no self-respect or pride? I'm well aware that people put their face on supplements that they didn't use to get results but this was an exercise article and human anatomy is human anatomy no matter who it is. Overhand grip pull ups happens to be an incredibly popular, and IMO great move. Just because you like doing them a different way doesn't mean that everybody who says they get results with overhand is lying.

SDR
01-08-09, 10:32 am
Easy....Deadlifts, Close grip pulldowns, Pull Ups, Side Laterals......the recipe for width

NickSP
01-08-09, 10:33 am
My last bit is on width vs. thickness. I don't believe there's any reason to have two back days. The only reason people refer to overhead moves as width exercises and rows for thickness is the proportions that certain muscles are worked, but there's still incredible overlap. Both types of movements will hit lats, traps, rhomboids (underneath the traps), the teres, etc.

krazyassmexican
01-08-09, 10:36 am
natural or not the steak and potatoes makes you grow, same thing with exercises, just because they may not be natural it doesnt mean that exercise is worthless for you, give it a try and find out if it works or not

GJN5002
01-08-09, 10:44 am
I really dont think deads make you wide. I know we'll debate this forever. They are good for overall development and have made me thick but I really dont feel they stress the outer portion of the lats.
And I agree 100% with the Dorian comment. Underhand grips baby.

theharjmann
01-08-09, 10:52 am
I really dont think deads make you wide. I know we'll debate this forever.

WOW WOW WOW i hope this doesn't turn into a "The Awful Truth" style debate LOL!

sanga
01-08-09, 10:55 am
I know someone that only does deadlifts for back, bench for chest and squats for legs, no other exercises, never has done, no he isn`t a powerlifter either, he trains 3 days a week training each bodypart twice in 9 days for 4-5 sets each for reps and he is thick and wide at 19 stone.

Aggression
01-08-09, 11:12 am
I do chins with a slightly wider than shoulder with grip, and I also go CG pulldowns. Both hit the back very well and ever since then, I've noticed both an increase in back strength and thickness.

GJN5002
01-08-09, 1:14 pm
I know someone that only does deadlifts for back, bench for chest and squats for legs, no other exercises, never has done, no he isn`t a powerlifter either, he trains 3 days a week training each bodypart twice in 9 days for 4-5 sets each for reps and he is thick and wide at 19 stone.

yea and I know a woman that smoked till she was 90 and didnt die of lung cancer. Everyone knows someone who doesnt follow the rules and has a good outcome, doesnt mean cigs dont cause lung cancer and deads make you wide. Dont forget genetics, house could have never trained his calves and probably still had bigger ones than 80% of guys on this forum.
Like I said, the debate will rage on about this.

MojoMike36
01-08-09, 6:27 pm
My last bit is on width vs. thickness. I don't believe there's any reason to have two back days. The only reason people refer to overhead moves as width exercises and rows for thickness is the proportions that certain muscles are worked, but there's still incredible overlap. Both types of movements will hit lats, traps, rhomboids (underneath the traps), the teres, etc.

A week emphasizes width building exercises. B week emphasizes thickness building exercises.

I'm aware that they'll all get worked. I'm no fool man and you're spot on. But its a fact you can train in a specific manner to build more general thickness by utilizing specific exercises. I still hit Rows on both weeks because they're just a bread and butter exercise no back day is complete without in my opinion.

Back A and B back are as follows:
Back and Calves A (width)
-Deadlifts x4
-Neutral CG Lat Pulldown x3
-BB Rows x3
-Neutral Grip Pullups x3
-Leg Press Calf x3
-Standing Calf x3

Back and Calves B (thickness)
-Deadlifts x4
-Wide Grip Lat Pulldown x3
-BB Rows x3
-Seated Cable Rows x3
-Seated Calf x3
-Donkey Calf x3

If you don't believe its been working just look at my journey. Going A then B has allowed me to continually add weights nonstop each week.

NickSP
01-08-09, 6:52 pm
Ah my bad, I thought you were doing two back workouts each week.

sin-city-customs
01-08-09, 8:37 pm
Why would u use and underhand grip? I can pull more weight that way, specifically cable pull downs, but then isnt that taking away from using your back muscles and putting more on the bi's?

Tron
01-08-09, 10:47 pm
Take only some you read with a grain of salt... One of those so called magazines has told me that you could spot reduce on the good ol' tummy cause it adds blood to the target area and heats it up. If I didn't know better I would have totally been fooled.

... I also read in one of them that one of their healthy recipes was a buffalo chicken meal... "Perfect for that low carb beer." Treat everything you read as a piece of fiction until you find otherwise.

Yolo
01-09-09, 4:15 am
Why would u use and underhand grip? I can pull more weight that way, specifically cable pull downs, but then isnt that taking away from using your back muscles and putting more on the bi's?

I wouldn't worry about it much. Just make sure you use decent form.

simpleguy
01-09-09, 7:10 am
So I'm flipping through a very popular BBing mag. One of the more reputable ones. Not too many adds and it does offer some decent advice.

Theres this big page spread on training for V taper. It stresses wide grip pull ups as the king of width. Meanwhile I've been putting on great width Neutral Close Grip pulldowns and Neutral pullups. This article raves about it and has all these quotes/advice from clearly unnatural BBers raving about acquiring their taper from wide grips.

This seems so counter to the in gym truth to me but could the majority of people be wrong and the magazine correct? I hardly believe anything I read ever. I'm a big skeptic and only a believer in basic principles of old school lifting and good old fashion hard work.

I feel wide grips in the inner lats and back. I feel narrow grips in my outer lats big time. I'm not going to change my exercises in my split I'd just like to know which one is accomplishing which. I have a width back week and a thickness back week on an A week B week cycle split.

Can anyone offer some insight on this?

you know I kinda agree with you... on most exercises that's how I feel, and speaking about feel, I feel close to medium grips work my lats better then wide grips... that been said I don't avoid wide grips, I use all of them, but probably focus a bit more on close grips, or a medium grip


I really dont think deads make you wide. I know we'll debate this forever. They are good for overall development and have made me thick but I really dont feel they stress the outer portion of the lats.


x2


WOW WOW WOW i hope this doesn't turn into a "The Awful Truth" style debate LOL!

LOL

V Man
01-09-09, 8:08 am
Why would u use and underhand grip? I can pull more weight that way, specifically cable pull downs, but then isnt that taking away from using your back muscles and putting more on the bi's?

Under hand pull ups work the lats primarily with biceps as a minor secondary muscle. As a young pup I actually used to think that over arm was for back and that under hand pull ups were just a biceps exercise when the truth is its your lats getting hit.

Confusing I know