The Awful Truth

[G Diesel]

This is a long time coming, but it needs to be said...

The young guys here, looking to take their physique and their strength from the beginner stages to the next level up, need to avoid the advice of the online gurus and their gimmick diet bullshit.

I've noticed for a while now, that kids at the earliest stages of their development begin to follow the recommendations of the drug gurus, thinking that their diet applications apply to them and will transform them into a high level NPC monster. This is not the case, I assure you.

If you are under 220 lbs and have been lifting less than 5 years, you should not be doing a keto diet, thinking it will make you look like an IFBB pro. It will not. More than likely, you will starve yourself down into a tinier version of your old physique.

Ox looks the way Ox does because he built a huge base of raw mass over years and years of eating quality whole foods, including carbs. His offseason diet, as seen in the new MD includes OJ, quaker oats, Torrent, potatoes and sweet potatoes everyday. His zero carb keto approach is used for his precontest diet. My boy House goes weeks and weeks in the precontest without a single carb, but guess what? Offseason, the dude drinks Real Gains shakes mixed with a cup of oat bran and whole milk multiple times daily. These two eat like the huge athletes they are to stay that way and continue to grow and they ate even more to get there in the first place.

It saddens me, when the primary catalyst for the growth process is somewhat cast aside by these supposed gurus. Yeah, I'm talking about training. The kind of heavy, consistent, intense training that your favorite IFBB pro did for years and years before anybody knew their names and they were ever in a magazine.

You see, the fine print in the advice of so many of these experts is the great unspoken "d word". The drug aspect of the sport, while now more openly discussed, is the elephant in the room of bbing and it probably always will be. Either it is shoved down young guys' throats as their only option for progress or it is altogether left out when diet advice is disseminated. Good because 99% of people in the world that lift weights shouldn't even contemplate the use of anabolics. Bad because diet advice that is dependent on drug use, doesn't work so well when drugs aren't used. They leave out that waxy maize became so popular because it worked really well with insulin or other similar unspoken truths.

I've heard enough horror stories about guys with feet that grow 3 sizes in their thirties from the use of GH and exotic peptides to take a "buyer beware" approach when it comes to who I listen to regarding my diet and training and supplementation. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone or to outright piss on anybody's parade... I just want the guys on here to reach their goals and to not be sold a bill of goods by people that don't give a fuck about you or your goals or your health.

Hard and heavy training, the copious consumption of quality whole foods, basic supplementation--these are not fads. These are not dependent on having a back alley juice hookup or a digital scale to weigh your orange roughy or a whole foods boutique through which to purchase exotic nut butters. These won't go out of style, these won't steal your money, these won't lead you astray.

Peace, G

[theharjmann]

Good post.

Here's proof....written BY House ABOUT House.

http://www.animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?section=diet&ID=321

[Hollow]

Great post G!!! A subject that needs to be brought to the forefront every once in a while for a reminder.

[McFly]

Hard and heavy training, the copious consumption of quality whole foods, basic supplementation--these are not fads.


as usual...well said G.

stop by my journey anytime for a dose of the above quoted....you know how we do!

[krazyassmexican]

didnt you post this same thread a few months ago?

i understand the reasson behind your post but on the other hand, i cant believe and i dont understand a reasson why this forum gets so pissed and defensive when someone says the word keto or dave palumbo, some of us listen to the man just in some areas, in my case precontest diet and training, why? cuz they are tested by me and work for me....

i would love to know why that statement of if you are under 220 you shouldnt do it, there may be tons of kids that weight 180 and be overweight that can benefit from this diet, which is virtually the same diet some skimos still follow, a diet that the cave man did, a diet that vince gironda did, the difference is the type of fats used here, again to me it seems there's a lot of hate towards this diet and i still dont find a reasson why, last but not least, in order for this diet to workout you dont need performance enhancement drugs

as i raise my tuperware with chicken cashews and green salad..... CHEERS!

[krazyassmexican]

didnt you post this same thread a few months ago?

i understand the reasson behind your post but on the other hand, i cant believe and i dont understand a reasson why this forum gets so pissed and defensive when someone says the word keto or dave palumbo, some of us listen to the man just in some areas, in my case precontest diet and training, why? cuz they are tested by me and work for me....

i would love to know why that statement of if you are under 220 you shouldnt do it, there may be tons of kids that weight 180 and be overweight that can benefit from this diet, which is virtually the same diet some skimos still follow, a diet that the cave man did, a diet that vince gironda did, the difference is the type of fats used here, again to me it seems there's a lot of hate towards this diet and i still dont find a reasson why, last but not least, in order for this diet to workout you dont need performance enhancement drugs

as i raise my tuperware with chicken cashews and green salad..... CHEERS!


i also dont see anything wrong with someone ending up skinny after his diet, that means he burned body fat and revealed the real progress

i apologize if i didnt post something like great post, or solid post etc etc, i just feel like i need to express my opinion and not follow anybody's opinion

[shortstack]

This is a great post to start the year off with.

Thanks G

[G Diesel]

didnt you post this same thread a few months ago?

i understand the reasson behind your post but on the other hand, i cant believe and i dont understand a reasson why this forum gets so pissed and defensive when someone says the word keto or dave palumbo, some of us listen to the man just in some areas, in my case precontest diet and training, why? cuz they are tested by me and work for me....

i would love to know why that statement of if you are under 220 you shouldnt do it, there may be tons of kids that weight 180 and be overweight that can benefit from this diet, which is virtually the same diet some skimos still follow, a diet that the cave man did, a diet that vince gironda did, the difference is the type of fats used here, again to me it seems there's a lot of hate towards this diet and i still dont find a reasson why, last but not least, in order for this diet to workout you dont need performance enhancement drugs

I have posted similar sentiment in the past, Krazy... Thanks for noticing. I agree that this diet does have applications for the obese and for some sedentary individuals looking to "lose weight". That is why the Atkins diets were all the rage a few years back. I'm glad this approach works for you and I wish you continued progress and success.

Thing is, most of the young guys on The Forvm are into bodybuilding and powerlifting and are looking to build a respectable physique from the ground up, through the most practical and efficient means and I'm of the opinion that the tried and true methods of the past would better serve them. Most of these guys don't have the muscle base yet to even worry about strict dieting, let alone a zero carb precontest approach and if they think that dieting in this fashion is the secret behind a pro physique they are greatly misinformed.

Peace, G

[krazyassmexican]

I have posted similar sentiment in the past, Krazy... Thanks for noticing. I agree that this diet does have applications for the obese and for some sedentary individuals looking to "lose weight". That is why the Atkins diets were all the rage a few years back. I'm glad this approach works for you and I wish you continued progress and success.

Thing is, most of the young guys on The Forvm are into bodybuilding and powerlifting and are looking to build a respectable physique from the ground up, through the most practical and efficient means and I'm of the opinion that the tried and true methods of the past would better serve them. Most of these guys don't have the muscle base yet to even worry about strict dieting, let alone a zero carb precontest approach and if they think that dieting in this fashion is the secret behind a pro physique they are greatly misinformed.

Peace, G

so you are tellin me that skinny kids think doing a pre contest diet like keto puts on muscle?
WOW that is nuts!

[shizz702]

Fucking awesome post G! I agree with everything you are saying here.

[Giant Killer]

This is a long time coming, but it needs to be said...

The young guys here, looking to take their physique and their strength from the beginner stages to the next level up, need to avoid the advice of the online gurus and their gimmick diet bullshit.

I've noticed for a while now, that kids at the earliest stages of their development begin to follow the recommendations of the drug gurus, thinking that their diet applications apply to them and will transform them into a high level NPC monster. This is not the case, I assure you.

If you are under 220 lbs and have been lifting less than 5 years, you should not be doing a keto diet, thinking it will make you look like an IFBB pro. It will not. More than likely, you will starve yourself down into a tinier version of your old physique.

Ox looks the way Ox does because he built a huge base of raw mass over years and years of eating quality whole foods, including carbs. His offseason diet, as seen in the new MD includes OJ, quaker oats, Torrent, potatoes and sweet potatoes everyday. His zero carb keto approach is used for his precontest diet. My boy House goes weeks and weeks in the precontest without a single carb, but guess what? Offseason, the dude drinks Real Gains shakes mixed with a cup of oat bran and whole milk multiple times daily. These two eat like the huge athletes they are to stay that way and continue to grow and they ate even more to get there in the first place.

It saddens me, when the primary catalyst for the growth process is somewhat cast aside by these supposed gurus. Yeah, I'm talking about training. The kind of heavy, consistent, intense training that your favorite IFBB pro did for years and years before anybody knew their names and they were ever in a magazine.

You see, the fine print in the advice of so many of these experts is the great unspoken "d word". The drug aspect of the sport, while now more openly discussed, is the elephant in the room of bbing and it probably always will be. Either it is shoved down young guys' throats as their only option for progress or it is altogether left out when diet advice is disseminated. Good because 99% of people in the world that lift weights shouldn't even contemplate the use of anabolics. Bad because diet advice that is dependent on drug use, doesn't work so well when drugs aren't used. They leave out that waxy maize became so popular because it worked really well with insulin or other similar unspoken truths.

I've heard enough horror stories about guys with feet that grow 3 sizes in their thirties from the use of GH and exotic peptides to take a "buyer beware" approach when it comes to who I listen to regarding my diet and training and supplementation. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone or to outright piss on anybody's parade... I just want the guys on here to reach their goals and to not be sold a bill of goods by people that don't give a fuck about you or your goals or your health.

Hard and heavy training, the copious consumption of quality whole foods, basic supplementation--these are not fads. These are not dependent on having a back alley juice hookup or a digital scale to weigh your orange roughy or a whole foods boutique through which to purchase exotic nut butters. These won't go out of style, these won't steal your money, these won't lead you astray.

Peace, G

Great post G. You're always on the level with some poignant shit when it's been bugging me lately. Seems like there's always an easy way to reach your goals, but the black and white is that it takes years of hard labor and dedication.


i also dont see anything wrong with someone ending up skinny after his diet, that means he burned body fat and revealed the real progress

i apologize if i didnt post something like great post, or solid post etc etc, i just feel like i need to express my opinion and not follow anybody's opinion

Did you take progress pics? Maybe if we could see how this diet made you better it would be a more convincing argument. It seems to me that all this yo-yo keto dieting would affect a physique negatively, just like G was saying. Pics don't lie bro, let's see whats up.

[Wasteland]

Here's my awful truth: So many beginners get bogged down by details that won't make a whit of difference in the long run. They worry about the glycemic index so they will literally cut out good foods from their diet. They worry about measuring out every last milligram of beef for each meal without getting enough cals. They worry about supplements without having an adequate training program. The basics are where it's at. Beginners should stop worrying about the miniscule details that only serve to assuage the mind but not build the body.

[G Diesel]

so you are tellin me that skinny kids think doing a pre contest diet like keto puts on muscle?
WOW that is nuts!

Another issue is that it is an expensive diet, one that many of the young guys or middle class guys with real financial responsibilities just can't swing.

Peace, G

[krazyassmexican]

Great post G. You're always on the level with some poignant shit when it's been bugging me lately. Seems like there's always an easy way to reach your goals, but the black and white is that it takes years of hard labor and dedication.



Did you take progress pics? Maybe if we could see how this diet made you better it would be a more convincing argument. It seems to me that all this yo-yo keto dieting would affect a physique negatively, just like G was saying. Pics don't lie bro, let's see whats up.

if you followed my journey a year ago you could see that it worked i dont have access to my myspace while i am at work, yo-yo diet?
seriously when i head that term it drives me nuts i get mad and pissed off, if someone comes off from zero carbs and starts stuffin on real gains and carbs of course you are gonna get fucked up, you need to know how to come off and increase your carbs

[krazyassmexican]

Another issue is that it is an expensive diet, one that many of the young guys or middle class guys with real financial responsibilities just can't swing.

Peace, G

i am a low class fuck i made a lil over 20 000 dollars last year and i have bills and rent to pay monthly it was the cheapest diet ever

[brandonA]

so you are tellin me that skinny kids think doing a pre contest diet like keto puts on muscle?
WOW that is nuts!

No, read it again...

What do you hope to prove with this course of discussion?

-B

[wedge]

Solid words G. Eat big, train your ass off for several years and then worry about the details.

[Brutus_515]

I think the yo-yo diet works for alot of people...and doesnt for alot...Its all goals and perspective....it was intended for obese people I think...not for your average gym goer to lose some unwanted bodyfat and muscle if they dont have to proper tool to actually retain it (the elephant)

[krazyassmexican]

No, read it again...

What do you hope to prove with this course of discussion?

-B

that you guys need to quit bashing diets and at some point lean down you may be 400lbs right now and if you end up 190lbs after a diet at least you know those 190lbs are lean muscle and you dont lie to yourself thinkin you are a 400lbs monster

[Flash419]

Solid post as always G..

The man always cuts through the bullshit and speaks the truth!

Thanks again!

[InkdMuscle]

Nice post G. Straight and to the point.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Good stuff G. As you know already, we are certainly building our base with high cals...a much needed plan of action to get what we are after. I can't remember the last time I restricted food or tried to diet, I have never felt better.

[wedge]

that you guys need to quit bashing diets and at some point lean down you may be 400lbs right now and if you end up 190lbs after a diet at least you know those 190lbs are lean muscle and you dont lie to yourself thinkin you are a 400lbs monster

I don't want to start a fight or some drama in here, but I fail to see anywhere in G's post where he is bashing a diet.

[GJN5002]

G, Good post. i think too many people rely on training advice from people that have years of training under their belt or rely heavily on drugs. Amazing thigns are possible with dedication and a good diet. I think too many guys are afraid of getting a little "fat."
The only point Id like to disagree on is that people under 220 shouldnt be doing keto. I think keto is a great approach, some may argue it is aimed more at those that use enhancement but it is effective at reducing bodyfat and maintaining muscle. I do agree that carbs shouldnt be avoided in the off season, plus they are delicious.

[krazyassmexican]

I don't want to start a fight or some drama in here, but I fail to see anywhere in G's post where he is bashing a diet.


i never said he did, but basically everytime someone ask about keto a pissin match starts with the pro carbohidrates boys

[Brutus_515]

i never said he did, but basically everytime someone ask about keto a pissin match starts with the pro carbohidrates boys

is piss a carbohyrate?

[krazyassmexican]

I think the yo-yo diet works for alot of people...and doesnt for alot...Its all goals and perspective....it was intended for obese people I think...not for your average gym goer to lose some unwanted bodyfat and muscle if they dont have to proper tool to actually retain it (the elephant)

how can you lose muscle when you are burning fat for energy 24/7 ......

i can see why.....

"oh i had 20inch arms before keto and after keto they are 14" i lost a lot of muscle"

NO!

the person actually lost 6inches of extra cellular fat and that revealed his real arm size! period

i never thought i would have to quote this guy but since you guys are always talkin about losing size:

This is very true. Sometimes it's an honest mistake, while most times it's sheer ignorance. I really had no idea til I started competing and had hydrostatic testing done, then I saw what the deal was.
Most guys really think they don't have much fat to lose. Those would be in for a real shock if they dieted for a show. I don't know anyone who didn't have a heart attack dieting for their 1st show, including myself. I remember looking in the mirror saying I had about 18 pounds to lose. LOL, yea right! 31 pounds later and looking at my skinny ass in the mirror was a HUGE fucking wake up call. I know many others, over the years, who experienced the same thing. We can laugh about it now, but at the time, it was fucking shocking. <<<< This could be why some guys WON'T diet down, since they know they'd look small doing so. I love the guys who say they lost muscle dieting down. No, you lost fat and reveiled you don't have nearly the muscle you thought you did!

[krazyassmexican]

is piss a carbohyrate?

i dont wanna joke or either fight bro so dont try to make me look like stupid

[theharjmann]

The post was trying to tell the young guns that it is very easy to be steered away from heavy, compound training and big calorific eating.

The majority of people wanting to get massive will pick up a copy of Flex and read it....what young guns forget is that the diets and trainign regimes set in Flex are devised by SEASONED PROFESSIONALS that are drugged and do the sport 24/7.

The new starters looking to put on mass need to stick to the basics.

I was guilty of following the glorified Flex articles to begin with, i still am...and im pretty sure most people on this forum are.

The post was just one to bring us young guys back down to earth for building a true solid base of mass. These posts are partly what motivates me to eat more when im at work/home.

[simpleguy]

good post G, I agree with the fact that to build a solid base you need to grow, even though you might put some fat on... but the situations change if you start out overweight, hope you get my point... first you are kinda aiming to get off some of that 40% bf you got, and then think about gaining muscle


as for the other topic that's going on, I noticed myself from some posters (I won't give names - but it's not G Diesel) at times they get ironic about keto diets... I'm not for them, nor against them, I just think we should look at this with from an open perspective


and besides, what works for you doesn't work for me... this is especially true for carbs, I've seen on another board someone who eats up to 4 kg of carbs on weekends and gets ripped... others stay on high-carbs year round and are fairly lean, while others gain fat by eating that amount

[McFly]

I'm not one to chime in much on these debates....but I think g's point is VERY CLEAR in regards to new guys in this sport and trying to make progress as a "lifter" so to speak. however, the Atkins diet which was a huge fad and now coined as a "keto" diet isn't for everyone. I personally don't see it as a lifestyle diet....those overweight can use it to shed some pounds but it's not something one can carry on as a new "lifestyle". it may be a great precontest diet for some bodybuilders but is it for the average joe hitting the gym and wanting to shed a few pounds of fat?? probably not.

just my .02

out

[jayanticoli]

Solid fuckin post G, of course from reading all your others i wouldnt expect any less

[G Diesel]

i never said he did, but basically everytime someone ask about keto a pissin match starts with the pro carbohidrates boys

Haha... It's all good, Krazy.

I didn't know The Forvm was split into two camps: pro- vs. anti-carbohydrate. Can any macronutrient be completely evil?

As for the losing muscle dieting concept... It is a fact that people lose muscle while in caloric deficit. Anabolics help in retaining muscle on restricted kcals. Think about the difference between a 220 lb natural bodybuilder dieting and a 220 lb enhanced athlete. At the end of the diet, which one will be bigger and hold onto more mass?

Peace, G

[krazyassmexican]

Haha... It's all good, Krazy.

I didn't know The Forvm was split into two camps: pro- vs. anti-carbohydrate. Can any macronutrient be completely evil?

As for the losing muscle dieting concept... It is a fact that people lose muscle while in caloric deficit. Anabolics help in retaining muscle on restricted kcals. Think about the difference between a 220 lb natural bodybuilder dieting and a 220 lb enhanced athlete. At the end of the diet, which one will be bigger and hold onto more mass?

Peace, G

i am not an anticarbohydrate i just agree with plenty of doctor including scott conelly that they are not necessary for your body, i did use carbs offseasson, the reasson why i went so high on weight was MENTAL PROBLEMS, stopped eatin and i was drinkin everyday for 3 months straight that's another topic.....

muscle lost while dieting imo has to do with what you previously stated but mostly with nutrients, and cardio

once again why would you lose muscle on keto when you are burning fat 24/7?
my answer HIT cardio

[mikejones1]

first of all you have to have muscle to lose muscle.
and yes pics do not lie.

and btw, good post g.

[simpleguy]

first of all you have to have muscle to lose muscle.


any person has muscle, some have more, some less but we all do

[naturalguy]

Great post G and needed to be said.

I wish I had someone straighten me out when I was starting out. You have to build a solid foundation before you start putting fancy shingles on the house.

[JUGGERNAUT]

G, I don't understand why this has gone the way of a diet debate. I think it's very clear you are simply warning the young guns of “premature dieting" before putting on a nice base of muscle. No?

[GJN5002]

however, the Atkins diet which was a huge fad and now coined as a "keto" diet isn't for everyone.

There are major differences between keto and atkins. Im not trying to spark anymore arguements here but, Atkins is a lifestyle diet that does not build muscle efficeintly because it is relatively low protein and includes foods that are by no means healthy. The "palumbo" keto diet and atkins both have the goal of ketosis but by different means.

[HOCKEY TEMPER]

how can you lose muscle when you are burning fat for energy 24/7 ......

i can see why.....

"oh i had 20inch arms before keto and after keto they are 14" i lost a lot of muscle"

NO!

the person actually lost 6inches of extra cellular fat and that revealed his real arm size! period

i never thought i would have to quote this guy but since you guys are always talkin about losing size:

This is very true. Sometimes it's an honest mistake, while most times it's sheer ignorance. I really had no idea til I started competing and had hydrostatic testing done, then I saw what the deal was.
Most guys really think they don't have much fat to lose. Those would be in for a real shock if they dieted for a show. I don't know anyone who didn't have a heart attack dieting for their 1st show, including myself. I remember looking in the mirror saying I had about 18 pounds to lose. LOL, yea right! 31 pounds later and looking at my skinny ass in the mirror was a HUGE fucking wake up call. I know many others, over the years, who experienced the same thing. We can laugh about it now, but at the time, it was fucking shocking. <<<< This could be why some guys WON'T diet down, since they know they'd look small doing so. I love the guys who say they lost muscle dieting down. No, you lost fat and reveiled you don't have nearly the muscle you thought you did!

G. solid post man. you never hype shit up. strictly the tried and true.

Krazy, dude I don't know how you can argue the fact that inexperienced natural bodybuilders out there don't loose muscle during a cut. Unless you've been in this game for 10 years strong (bulking and cutting) you don't have cutting down to a science and to say that some muscle is not lost in the process is absurd. Most of the guys on this forum should not be using keto at this point in their lives and moreover when they do it you can't honestly say muscle is not lost in the process. It took one of my boys from home years to nail his diet so that muscle was not lost and he's a natural pro. Moroever, I agree with G that people should not be worrying about cutting untill they have created a big strong base to cut from. This takes a long time of eating big and training hard.

[mikejones1]

any person has muscle, some have more, some less but we all do

exactly my point. when you barely have any muscle to lose while on keto, its not hard to maintain.

[TigerAce01]

is piss a carbohyrate?

Hahahahahahaha

[G Diesel]

i am not an anticarbohydrate i just agree with plenty of doctor including scott conelly that they are not necessary for your body


The good doctor also developed the original MRP, which basically revolutionized the industry. Everybody used it from guys looking to add mass to dieting athletes and it worked well for all. That formula had at least 20g of carbs per serving if I recall.

Peace, G

[krazyassmexican]

The good doctor also developed the original MRP, which basically revolutionized the industry. Everybody used it from guys looking to add mass to dieting athletes and it worked well for all. That formula had at least 20g of carbs per serving if I recall.

Peace, G

20grams is not enough to make ur insuline go crazy and spare into new fat growth lol

[naturalguy]

The good doctor also developed the original MRP, which basically revolutionized the industry. Everybody used it from guys looking to add mass to dieting athletes and it worked well for all. That formula had at least 20g of carbs per serving if I recall.

Peace, G

22 to be exact and everyone back in the day was using multiple servings of Met-Rx per day. I know many, many competitive bodybuilders that were using 3-4 packets of Met-Rx per day during their contest diet and they got ripped.

[prowrestler]

wow, an actual decent thread has been started.

this turned out to be a solid thread. good debating

[Fury317]

God its about time someone fills people in on this. I was starting to get real fed up with thread titles like "Help with my keto diet"

As G states, and I agree, eat some carbs already!

[J-Dawg]

This is a long time coming, but it needs to be said...

The young guys here, looking to take their physique and their strength from the beginner stages to the next level up, need to avoid the advice of the online gurus and their gimmick diet bullshit.

I've noticed for a while now, that kids at the earliest stages of their development begin to follow the recommendations of the drug gurus, thinking that their diet applications apply to them and will transform them into a high level NPC monster. This is not the case, I assure you.

If you are under 220 lbs and have been lifting less than 5 years, you should not be doing a keto diet, thinking it will make you look like an IFBB pro. It will not. More than likely, you will starve yourself down into a tinier version of your old physique.

Ox looks the way Ox does because he built a huge base of raw mass over years and years of eating quality whole foods, including carbs. His offseason diet, as seen in the new MD includes OJ, quaker oats, Torrent, potatoes and sweet potatoes everyday. His zero carb keto approach is used for his precontest diet. My boy House goes weeks and weeks in the precontest without a single carb, but guess what? Offseason, the dude drinks Real Gains shakes mixed with a cup of oat bran and whole milk multiple times daily. These two eat like the huge athletes they are to stay that way and continue to grow and they ate even more to get there in the first place.

It saddens me, when the primary catalyst for the growth process is somewhat cast aside by these supposed gurus. Yeah, I'm talking about training. The kind of heavy, consistent, intense training that your favorite IFBB pro did for years and years before anybody knew their names and they were ever in a magazine.

You see, the fine print in the advice of so many of these experts is the great unspoken "d word". The drug aspect of the sport, while now more openly discussed, is the elephant in the room of bbing and it probably always will be. Either it is shoved down young guys' throats as their only option for progress or it is altogether left out when diet advice is disseminated. Good because 99% of people in the world that lift weights shouldn't even contemplate the use of anabolics. Bad because diet advice that is dependent on drug use, doesn't work so well when drugs aren't used. They leave out that waxy maize became so popular because it worked really well with insulin or other similar unspoken truths.

I've heard enough horror stories about guys with feet that grow 3 sizes in their thirties from the use of GH and exotic peptides to take a "buyer beware" approach when it comes to who I listen to regarding my diet and training and supplementation. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone or to outright piss on anybody's parade... I just want the guys on here to reach their goals and to not be sold a bill of goods by people that don't give a fuck about you or your goals or your health.

Hard and heavy training, the copious consumption of quality whole foods, basic supplementation--these are not fads. These are not dependent on having a back alley juice hookup or a digital scale to weigh your orange roughy or a whole foods boutique through which to purchase exotic nut butters. These won't go out of style, these won't steal your money, these won't lead you astray.

Peace, G

G, you know how I feel about this topic. I know the benefit and application of keto outside of bb and won't comment about that part for this discussion. It's role in bodybuilding these days seems to be so out of whack. From an outsiders perspective, there are some athletes that can benefit from it-- overweight, need to cut, slow metabolism, carb senstive. But is it absolutely necessary for best results? No. We worry about the most minute detail of dieting when we should be concerned with busting our ass training hard, getting enough sleep and taking in enough of the right calories to begin with. I think the problem is that most of us want to do what the professionals are doing. I have been guilty of this as well and I think many fall into this trap. We see a particular diet being used by a pro and think, hey if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me b/c I want to look like him. It ain't that easy. First, these guys have tremendous genetics. Second, the majority didn't follow a restrictive diet in order to get where they are today. Third, they are using "super supplements" which allows the body to react much differently to a keto diet than an average Joe.

At the end of the day, we have to honestly ask ourselves, are we happy with our physiques? Are we doing all we can to get the best out of our phsyiques with despite whatever genetic limitations we may have? The answer often isn't switching to a new diet. That's what those infomercials want you to believe. They want you to think that everything you've ever been doing is wrong and you need to switch over ASAP. For the majority, it's often not that severe. It's about making tweaks to your current diet and using common sense to make the right progress. Don't let a diet become a crutch that limits you from progressing further. And to speak for myself, I'm not yet worthy to be on a pre-contest diet and have the balls to admit that to myself.

[Wasteland]

We worry about the most minute detail of dieting when we should be concerned with busting our ass training hard, getting enough sleep and taking in enough of the right calories to begin with.

My sentiments exactly. Can't tell the forest from the trees.

[krazyassmexican]

We worry about the most minute detail of dieting when we should be concerned with busting our ass training hard, getting enough sleep and taking in enough of the right calories to begin with.

hey J DAWG i dont know if you know this but i have a lot of respect towards you, you have been helpin me a lot since i started on this game, but with all due respect would you recommend that to a 350lbs person with 4" down there and someday wants to be muscular?? of would you tell him to cut? and probably eliminate carbs?

i understand that if you are lean with at least a 4pack on your midsection you will be losing time dieting, but what about the otherside?

[Lunatic001]

I love food, any food.......sorry I had to say it......good debate though...

[Ox]

First off, great posts G Diesel and Wasteland. I have to agree with G here. Having my own thread on this forum and being someone who follows a ketogenic diet pre-contest, a lot of the questions that I get asked pertain to the keto diet. There are a few things that we have to get straight here.

1. I trained for 8 years before I ever even thought about competing. You can pretty much count that as one long offseason. I didn't give a fuck if I was lean or fat. Looking good during the summer didn't matter to me. I did whatever I felt would help me progress. I could have competed as a teen but waited until I built a mentionable base first.

2. This is bodybuilding. This is not fitness or figure. If you just want to be small and lean then that's fine. But you don't need to train like a bodybuilder, follow a pre-contest diet or live life like you're getting ready for the stage just to be small and lean. It's just not necessary. The name of the game is muscle. Anyone can be small and ripped...no one gives a shit. Some SERIOUS time spent training and eating like a BODYBUILDER is a must before the thought of ANY diet should even be a thought in your head.

3. Keto is not for everyone. I've seen it work well for both natural and enhanced bodybuilders...both men and women. And I've seen other people tank on it. The bottom line is that anyone who hasn't put in some serious time and put on a serious amount of muscle should not even be considering keto or any other diet just because they're a little soft. C'mon.

4. Wasteland is right...the fucking most miniscule details are NOT THAT IMPORTANT to someone who is a beginner! All you need to know is train like a fuckin animal and eat up! God damn it. I'm polite and answer everyone's questions but seriously, there are times when people ask me the most specific detailed shit and it's someone who just started working out. Granted, there's a lot of shit I've learned over the years but sometimes people complicate this shit way too much. And doing exactly what I do is not the answer. I'm not you and you're not me.

I love you guys and sincerely want to help in any way I can. But sometimes you guys gotta take a step back. This is bodybuilding. Body-building. Not bodysculpting. Not bodyfatlosing. We train. We eat. We do whatever we have to do to BUILD (key word) the physique we want. Once we build it, then we clean shit up. But this is a LONG procsess. You don't "bulk" for a winter and "cut" for the summer. Motherfucker you spend years building this shit.

[Lunatic001]

Nicely said, Ox, G.......what works for one individual might not work for another!!!!!!

[Dingo]

G, you know how I feel about this topic. I know the benefit and application of keto outside of bb and won't comment about that part for this discussion. It's role in bodybuilding these days seems to be so out of whack. From an outsiders perspective, there are some athletes that can benefit from it-- overweight, need to cut, slow metabolism, carb senstive. But is it absolutely necessary for best results? No. We worry about the most minute detail of dieting when we should be concerned with busting our ass training hard, getting enough sleep and taking in enough of the right calories to begin with. I think the problem is that most of us want to do what the professionals are doing. I have been guilty of this as well and I think many fall into this trap. We see a particular diet being used by a pro and think, hey if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me b/c I want to look like him. It ain't that easy. First, these guys have tremendous genetics. Second, the majority didn't follow a restrictive diet in order to get where they are today. Third, they are using "super supplements" which allows the body to react much differently to a keto diet than an average Joe.

At the end of the day, we have to honestly ask ourselves, are we happy with our physiques? Are we doing all we can to get the best out of our phsyiques with despite whatever genetic limitations we may have? The answer often isn't switching to a new diet. That's what those infomercials want you to believe. They want you to think that everything you've ever been doing is wrong and you need to switch over ASAP. For the majority, it's often not that severe. It's about making tweaks to your current diet and using common sense to make the right progress. Don't let a diet become a crutch that limits you from progressing further. And to speak for myself, I'm not yet worthy to be on a pre-contest diet and have the balls to admit that to myself.

same here, as much as i wanna be "ripped in 10 weeks" i know it'll be more detrimental to me later on in building and maintaining a solid base. Got a kid at the gym who it seems like every other day hes tellin me hes gettin some new supplement (so i guess those ad's work) meanwhile my regime stays the same, food, protein, aminos, caffiene.

Build your base before you carve your pyramid, otherwise you'll get burried in the dunes.

[prowrestler]

point of thread

skinny kids, your not jacked enough to get cut. EAT

[krazyassmexican]

point of thread

skinny kids, your not jacked enough to get cut. EAT

agreed on that i see your point i see g's point i hope you guys see my point

shit as many of you i wanna be huge one day but sometimes you gotta play the game different

[Firefist]

great post as usual.

i think that alot of the newbies out there are too focused on the short term goals. Rarely do they get exposed to seeing pro's in the off season, as most pics of them are in contest condition. they keep that picture in mind and completely exclude the images of the pro before cutting.

you said it best sir, the new guys completely look past the years and years of constant mass building that pros like ox and house had to do, and look right to the stage. everyone is so obsessed with keeping 365 abs that they forget what really works. thus, they get sucked into false advertisements for drugs and start following precontest diets to "look like the pros onstage".

i dont know if you guys get what im saying, but this is my take.

[JUGGERNAUT]

That was amazing Ox, no debate past that post!

[Wasteland]

the fucking most miniscule details are NOT THAT IMPORTANT to someone who is a beginner! All you need to know is train like a fuckin animal and eat up!

Sadly, and though it's neither the fault nor the intent of the athletes themselves, beginners see their heroes grace the covers and articles of the bodybuilding mags. It's human nature to want to aspire to something better, to be like those they admire and respect, whether it's bodybuilding, football or baseball. It's the cult of celebrity at work. It's the "If something works for Joe Pro, then it has to work for me" mentality and unfortunately, this kind of thinking is misguided at best, and dangerous at worst.

[GSant434]

G you like always, bring a solid set of points to the table. It really is awesome to have guys like you on this forum with not only a wealth of knowledge, but the balls to just cut the shit and tell it like you see it. If someone doesn't agree with your posts or thoughts, you don't take it personally and respect there opinion; and for that I respect the hell out of you.

[prowrestler]

agreed on that i see your point i see g's point i hope you guys see my point

shit as many of you i wanna be huge one day but sometimes you gotta play the game different

i see your point and back it up too, im on your side

but i think the threads driftin from the main issue.

[J-Dawg]

hey J DAWG i dont know if you know this but i have a lot of respect towards you, you have been helpin me a lot since i started on this game, but with all due respect would you recommend that to a 350lbs person with 4" down there and someday wants to be muscular?? of would you tell him to cut? and probably eliminate carbs?

i understand that if you are lean with at least a 4pack on your midsection you will be losing time dieting, but what about the otherside?

Krazy, I appreciate your kind words. In this situation, I'd have to take a look at everything they were eating and really work with them to clean it up. I've never been a big fan of restrictive diets though I know they can be successful (Atkins) and believe in educating about making changes before anything else. Getting people to change their habits is very important to me and finding out why they let themselves get to such a heavy weight in the first place.

[krazyassmexican]

Krazy, I appreciate your kind words. In this situation, I'd have to take a look at everything they were eating and really work with them to clean it up. I've never been a big fan of restrictive diets though I know they can be successful (Atkins) and believe in educating about making changes before anything else. Getting people to change their habits is very important to me and finding out why they let themselves get to such a heavy weight in the first place.

Thank you, you made my day

[Big Al]

Well as you all know I'm PRO-carbohydrate's.I've been quoted as saying sugar is my friend.
I think G and Ox made it clear as they can.
FUCKIN EAT and TRAIN and GROW!!!
Don't over think this shit.I see guys in the gym talking about taking this or drinking oil,FUCK THAT.
McFly is a great example of a younger guy thats eating and training his ass off every day.And guess what???He's gettin bigger and stronger.
Wow we might be onto something.

[Big Al]

And I will say I eat carbs my whole pre-contest diet and I have almost everyone I train eat carbs there whole diet.

[J-Dawg]

First off, great posts G Diesel and Wasteland. I have to agree with G here. Having my own thread on this forum and being someone who follows a ketogenic diet pre-contest, a lot of the questions that I get asked pertain to the keto diet. There are a few things that we have to get straight here.

1. I trained for 8 years before I ever even thought about competing. You can pretty much count that as one long offseason. I didn't give a fuck if I was lean or fat. Looking good during the summer didn't matter to me. I did whatever I felt would help me progress. I could have competed as a teen but waited until I built a mentionable base first.

2. This is bodybuilding. This is not fitness or figure. If you just want to be small and lean then that's fine. But you don't need to train like a bodybuilder, follow a pre-contest diet or live life like you're getting ready for the stage just to be small and lean. It's just not necessary. The name of the game is muscle. Anyone can be small and ripped...no one gives a shit. Some SERIOUS time spent training and eating like a BODYBUILDER is a must before the thought of ANY diet should even be a thought in your head.

3. Keto is not for everyone. I've seen it work well for both natural and enhanced bodybuilders...both men and women. And I've seen other people tank on it. The bottom line is that anyone who hasn't put in some serious time and put on a serious amount of muscle should not even be considering keto or any other diet just because they're a little soft. C'mon.

4. Wasteland is right...the fucking most miniscule details are NOT THAT IMPORTANT to someone who is a beginner! All you need to know is train like a fuckin animal and eat up! God damn it. I'm polite and answer everyone's questions but seriously, there are times when people ask me the most specific detailed shit and it's someone who just started working out. Granted, there's a lot of shit I've learned over the years but sometimes people complicate this shit way too much. And doing exactly what I do is not the answer. I'm not you and you're not me.

I love you guys and sincerely want to help in any way I can. But sometimes you guys gotta take a step back. This is bodybuilding. Body-building. Not bodysculpting. Not bodyfatlosing. We train. We eat. We do whatever we have to do to BUILD (key word) the physique we want. Once we build it, then we clean shit up. But this is a LONG procsess. You don't "bulk" for a winter and "cut" for the summer. Motherfucker you spend years building this shit.

Well said Ox.

[GJN5002]

Well said Ox.

x2
I think that ends the debate.
All arguing aside, this was one of the better threads on this site in a long time.

[prowrestler]

All arguing aside, this was one of the better threads on this site in a long time.

1billion% agreee. like, you have no fuckin idea how much i agree with you lol

[simpleguy]

1billion% agreee. like, you have no fuckin idea how much i agree with you lol

yeah, kinda like a movie, but I had almonds instead of popcorn

[Mr. Dead]

Definitely needed to be put out there, G...

[krazyassmexican]

yeah, kinda like a movie, but I had almonds instead of popcorn

mac nut oil is heaven's sent

i just had wpi with it and a pak of omega

[Corvus]

I remember the "awful truth" of which G Diesel speaks. It's awful, but shit, it's the truth.

[redskin 344]

Good post G

[brandonA]

that you guys need to quit bashing diets and at some point lean down you may be 400lbs right now and if you end up 190lbs after a diet at least you know those 190lbs are lean muscle and you dont lie to yourself thinkin you are a 400lbs monster

Once again you are missing the whole point of what G is saying. He is not bashing anything...And he is not calling you out, or Dave out, or Keto out....


I am glad to see that nothing has changed....Welcome back....

-B

[Latimer316]

Damn, such a good thread. I read that from beginning to end and took it all in. Thanks for opening our eyes up G, especially mine! Ox-well said man and has given me a new thought for where I am and where I need to be before thinking of the stage again. Much appreciated

[J Wong]

Awesome post. I realized that I still need to build that base. I've done keto once, with good results, but I was small underneath that fat. Being young, I realized with hard work and discipline I can achieve my goals. Realized I can grow, and even lean out, just have to sacrifice with a CLEAN diet and cardio.

[Giant Killer]

Think about the difference between a 220 lb natural bodybuilder dieting and a 220 lb enhanced athlete. At the end of the diet, which one will be bigger and hold onto more mass?

Peace, G

Hmmmm if only I knew some really big natural bodybuilder to get some solid advice from. Hahahaha

[sanga]

If you are under 220 lbs and have been lifting less than 5 years, you should not be doing a keto diet, thinking it will make you look like an IFBB pro. It will not. More than likely, you will starve yourself down into a tinier version of your old physique.

Ox looks the way Ox does because he built a huge base of raw mass over years and years of eating quality whole foods, including carbs.

I'm talking about training. The kind of heavy, consistent, intense training that your favorite IFBB pro did for years and years before anybody knew their names and they were ever in a magazine.

G

Good thread G, every pro without exception lifted heavy and progrssively over years and also ate to fuel and replenish that training.

Problem is everyone wants to look like a pro but doesn`t want to eat or train heavy like one for years and years to get there even if they do have the genetics.

[prafull]

First off, great posts G Diesel and Wasteland. I have to agree with G here. Having my own thread on this forum and being someone who follows a ketogenic diet pre-contest, a lot of the questions that I get asked pertain to the keto diet. There are a few things that we have to get straight here.

1. I trained for 8 years before I ever even thought about competing. You can pretty much count that as one long offseason. I didn't give a fuck if I was lean or fat. Looking good during the summer didn't matter to me. I did whatever I felt would help me progress. I could have competed as a teen but waited until I built a mentionable base first.

2. This is bodybuilding. This is not fitness or figure. If you just want to be small and lean then that's fine. But you don't need to train like a bodybuilder, follow a pre-contest diet or live life like you're getting ready for the stage just to be small and lean. It's just not necessary. The name of the game is muscle. Anyone can be small and ripped...no one gives a shit. Some SERIOUS time spent training and eating like a BODYBUILDER is a must before the thought of ANY diet should even be a thought in your head.

3. Keto is not for everyone. I've seen it work well for both natural and enhanced bodybuilders...both men and women. And I've seen other people tank on it. The bottom line is that anyone who hasn't put in some serious time and put on a serious amount of muscle should not even be considering keto or any other diet just because they're a little soft. C'mon.

4. Wasteland is right...the fucking most miniscule details are NOT THAT IMPORTANT to someone who is a beginner! All you need to know is train like a fuckin animal and eat up! God damn it. I'm polite and answer everyone's questions but seriously, there are times when people ask me the most specific detailed shit and it's someone who just started working out. Granted, there's a lot of shit I've learned over the years but sometimes people complicate this shit way too much. And doing exactly what I do is not the answer. I'm not you and you're not me.

I love you guys and sincerely want to help in any way I can. But sometimes you guys gotta take a step back. This is bodybuilding. Body-building. Not bodysculpting. Not bodyfatlosing. We train. We eat. We do whatever we have to do to BUILD (key word) the physique we want. Once we build it, then we clean shit up. But this is a LONG procsess. You don't "bulk" for a winter and "cut" for the summer. Motherfucker you spend years building this shit.

well said evan..

[G Diesel]

Damn, such a good thread. I read that from beginning to end and took it all in. Thanks for opening our eyes up G, especially mine! Ox-well said man and has given me a new thought for where I am and where I need to be before thinking of the stage again. Much appreciated

Mission accomplished...

Peace, G

[sanga]

First off, great posts G Diesel and Wasteland. I have to agree with G here. Having my own thread on this forum and being someone who follows a ketogenic diet pre-contest, a lot of the questions that I get asked pertain to the keto diet. There are a few things that we have to get straight here.

1. I trained for 8 years before I ever even thought about competing. You can pretty much count that as one long offseason. I didn't give a fuck if I was lean or fat. Looking good during the summer didn't matter to me. I did whatever I felt would help me progress. I could have competed as a teen but waited until I built a mentionable base first.

2. This is bodybuilding. This is not fitness or figure. If you just want to be small and lean then that's fine. But you don't need to train like a bodybuilder, follow a pre-contest diet or live life like you're getting ready for the stage just to be small and lean. It's just not necessary. The name of the game is muscle. Anyone can be small and ripped...no one gives a shit. Some SERIOUS time spent training and eating like a BODYBUILDER is a must before the thought of ANY diet should even be a thought in your head.

3. Keto is not for everyone. I've seen it work well for both natural and enhanced bodybuilders...both men and women. And I've seen other people tank on it. The bottom line is that anyone who hasn't put in some serious time and put on a serious amount of muscle should not even be considering keto or any other diet just because they're a little soft. C'mon.

4. Wasteland is right...the fucking most miniscule details are NOT THAT IMPORTANT to someone who is a beginner! All you need to know is train like a fuckin animal and eat up! God damn it. I'm polite and answer everyone's questions but seriously, there are times when people ask me the most specific detailed shit and it's someone who just started working out. Granted, there's a lot of shit I've learned over the years but sometimes people complicate this shit way too much. And doing exactly what I do is not the answer. I'm not you and you're not me.

I love you guys and sincerely want to help in any way I can. But sometimes you guys gotta take a step back. This is bodybuilding. Body-building. Not bodysculpting. Not bodyfatlosing. We train. We eat. We do whatever we have to do to BUILD (key word) the physique we want. Once we build it, then we clean shit up. But this is a LONG procsess. You don't "bulk" for a winter and "cut" for the summer. Motherfucker you spend years building this shit.


I love the way you write mate, top notch as always.

This thread should be made a sticky and newbies/youngsters starting out need to be pointed to it at least so they have read it, what they decide to do after is up to them, most will still want to train the way Ox does, lol

[AFTazz06]

that you guys need to quit bashing diets and at some point lean down you may be 400lbs right now and if you end up 190lbs after a diet at least you know those 190lbs are lean muscle and you dont lie to yourself thinkin you are a 400lbs monster

I agree with ya there Krazy, alot of "big" guys in the gym these days, but all they are is fat. If they cut down to zero carbs and restict their diets such as on keto, they'll see that their size was all fat and the smaller guy left is the real "big" guy. i'm on keto, and i can honestly say that ive gotten nothing but great compliments from everybody that dont even i was on any diet. They just think i workout and thats it, everybody wanted to know what i was on. I personally prefer to see veins, and muscle fibers over just getting big and round, not just because i know i'm carb sensitive and because i collect everything in my gut. Point being, these diets are popular for a reason, they work, people get the results they're looking for. Sadly as G said, alot of young guys go straight for the bodybuilding magazines, see a guy thats shredded and want to look just like him this summer. Not gonna happen no matter how many drugs the kid can get his hands on. Problem isnt the kids looking for the wrong info, its that the wrong info is out there, and so the really GOOD info, the true advice is left in the dirt because bodybuilding today has become this mass media mess. Young kids today need to watch 'Bigger, Stronger, Faster' that really clears things up.

[BigAnt]

Again to sum up a lot of view points...NOT FOR EVERYONE...Ever see Ox, House or VinnyG eat in the off season...at the NJ ABC Ox had like a 2lb container of rice and was also munching on tomato pie--at 300lbs. and still rock hard. VinnyG eats his carbs and also his fair share of cheat meals, we had several meals together the Arnold Weekend in the past years! House, he keeps growing every year with lean muscle and has carbs and some junk every now and then as well!


Mcfly and myself diet hard and learned from the best, Big AL...All three of us come in razor sharp/dry/muscular and grainy at contest time and loose little if any muscle. And I am not afraid to say at the lowest point in my 16-18 week diet, my carbs drop to---READY--- 225 grams! And yes striated glutes are there as well with this carbohydrate amount...Ever see the monster amount of weight Mcfly and Big Al lift, both set power lifting records! Do ya think they have low carbs..HAHAHAHA---They live off carbs..again--according to their own body--AGAIN IT IS AN INDIVIDUAL THING PEOPLE!

To be an IFBB Pro genetics rule---no doubt and yeah Keto does work well and better with certain things (supplements) but to be Mr. ShopRite aisle nine, the cut guy in the club in the tight t-shirt, the sexiest female in your bikini at the pool or just a well muscled lean person...You don't need keto...You do need to bust your ass hard with a very precise weight lifting protocol along with a very good cardio program and healthy diet that is suited for you...individually. You can eat fruit-rice-yams-pasta and still obtain a six pack mid section and have garden hose veins running down your arms...

Keto--try it if you want, take notes...but you can stay on it forever!

[DHBAKER15]

Great post as always G, makes alot of sense. It took me a while to realize this but now im on the right track. I used to get caught up in all the HYPE instead of focusing on whole foods and a routine that works for me. Thanks. -DB

[krazyassmexican]

I agree with ya there Krazy, alot of "big" guys in the gym these days, but all they are is fat. If they cut down to zero carbs and restict their diets such as on keto, they'll see that their size was all fat and the smaller guy left is the real "big" guy. i'm on keto, and i can honestly say that ive gotten nothing but great compliments from everybody that dont even i was on any diet. They just think i workout and thats it, everybody wanted to know what i was on. I personally prefer to see veins, and muscle fibers over just getting big and round, not just because i know i'm carb sensitive and because i collect everything in my gut. Point being, these diets are popular for a reason, they work, people get the results they're looking for. Sadly as G said, alot of young guys go straight for the bodybuilding magazines, see a guy thats shredded and want to look just like him this summer. Not gonna happen no matter how many drugs the kid can get his hands on. Problem isnt the kids looking for the wrong info, its that the wrong info is out there, and so the really GOOD info, the true advice is left in the dirt because bodybuilding today has become this mass media mess. Young kids today need to watch 'Bigger, Stronger, Faster' that really clears things up.


amazing post bro

[h 3 L L b 0 y]

Damn real good post. Props to KAM for standing out and bringing about a constructive debate. Think too many people when pro's post on here simply make endless replies praising them rather than really questioning them and bringing out the truth. Nice post G, think too many people (including myself) have often at times been worried about the minor details without having a good few years experience under their belts and trying to figure out what works for them. Big Ant brings it home with his carb eating during pre-contest. Hell some people will probably gain a gut the size of a 6 month old baby with that many carbs; all depends on what works for you. Think G was speaking metaphorically when he said about 220lbs and 5 years.. Its not an actual figure you need to achieve, just a good base of a few years training with some muscle under your belt. Rather than following a diet a pro does in his 10th year of bodybuilding, why not look at his first 5 years? What did he actually do to get to that stage and see how well it works for you.

[G Diesel]

Think G was speaking metaphorically when he said about 220lbs and 5 years.. Its not an actual figure you need to achieve, just a good base of a few years training with some muscle under your belt. Rather than following a diet a pro does in his 10th year of bodybuilding, why not look at his first 5 years? What did he actually do to get to that stage and see how well it works for you.

Dead on the money bro... You got it. Peace, G

[Big Wides]

Lot of good points made here with the main underlying point is that it takes time and consistancy to get there. Years of eating and training your balls off to pack on the size needed for whatever it is you do. Eating in large quantites, even when dieting is a necessity in this sport. You've gotta eat to gain mass, but you have to do it smartly and know when to tighten your own reigns. But please heed the advice that G, Ox, Al, Ant and all of the other mass monsters in this thread have mentioned, you'll be thanking yourself over the course of your training career and your muscles will to.

[MELTDOWN]

this fits in nicely.... http://www.animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?section=diet&ID=415

[Maharg]

Aww, the good ole Keto diet pops up right fuck out of no where again. Welcome back KAM. I after all so sorely missed these unneeded fucking waste of time debates.

Everyone needs to build a base first. Period. I really dont give a fuck if they are 250lbs with 90lbs of useless fat. By starting a steady, reliable, good routine, they will start loosing weight. They dont need to start any diet at all. Simply making it to the gym 3-4 times a week and doing cardio, they will start to lose the fat. Yes, a healthy diet is important, and hopefully the person will realize that and cut out any junk food. But they dont need to suddenly say "alright, according to this person, my best bet for loosing weight is Diet A." But wait, what about Diet B? Is it no good compared to the other?

Any diet can lead to weight loss provided it is sensible. But by dieting to early you are pissing in the well you drink from. You cant gain muscle size while trying to drop alot of weight. I would rather slowly lose the fat while steadly gaining muscle. Fuck, ive gone from 235 my 7th grade year, to a much more impressive 205 with out ever, EVER, doing what i would call a diet. If i want to eat shit, i eat shit. Fats, carbs, Protien, it all gets taken in. Are carbs needed? No, i totally agree they arent. But they are useful, readily avalible, and can still help you grow.

Its like saying a machine wont help you grow if you train on it. If it give you a pump, makes you sore, and like the way it feels, it can help. But say someone else says the machine is a piece of crap and cannot do any thing. Do you quit using it? Lets say for example, oh I know, THE LEG EXTENSION. For years people have been using it, getting their quads pumped, and stretched, and pre fatigued getting ready for the big lifts. Suddenly someone says its no damn good, even though many pros have used it for years. Does it suddenly get sent to the scrap heap cause of one groups view? Fuck now, because other free thinkers realize it can still be used for great results. As much as Squats, Hack Squats, Or leg press? No, but its a great aid to build around. And here is where i come to the point of this rant...

DIETING IS A FUCKING AID! With nothing for it to aid, its a waist of time. By using your time to shrink to nothing, you have lost time you could be using to gain mass, and cut fat.

Im out.

*Disclaimer*
The views of Michael "Maharg" Graham do not reflect the view of the Forvm at large. Any views expressed in this rant are the sole possesion of said person, and should not be based on your views. If you agree with my though, Give me a Hell Yea! at dropping the subject.

[Vaze_06]

Amen... sucka stop changing your text!...

[HOCKEY TEMPER]

I think my favorite thread on this site is the one about bulking on keto...what the fuck are people thinking...talk about carb-phobia...

[Carpe Diem P.T]

I have posted similar sentiment in the past, Krazy... Thanks for noticing. I agree that this diet does have applications for the obese and for some sedentary individuals looking to "lose weight". That is why the Atkins diets were all the rage a few years back. I'm glad this approach works for you and I wish you continued progress and success.

Thing is, most of the young guys on The Forvm are into bodybuilding and powerlifting and are looking to build a respectable physique from the ground up, through the most practical and efficient means and I'm of the opinion that the tried and true methods of the past would better serve them. Most of these guys don't have the muscle base yet to even worry about strict dieting, let alone a zero carb precontest approach and if they think that dieting in this fashion is the secret behind a pro physique they are greatly misinformed.

Peace, G

What im taking out of all this is what I try to tell everyone. Keep it simple until you seriously plateau. I think most plateaus dont even happen. A lot of folk just want to speed up results or they dont understand the theory of progressive over load. Eat right and exercise regularly. Try that for 9 months then maybe give some specialist diet a trial.

[Cellerator65]

i need to eat more

[GJN5002]

Aww, the good ole Keto diet pops up right fuck out of no where again. Welcome back KAM. I after all so sorely missed these unneeded fucking waste of time debates.

Suddenly someone says its no damn good, even though many pros have used it for years. Does it suddenly get sent to the scrap heap cause of one groups view? Fuck now, because other free thinkers realize it can still be used for great results.



I hardly think this was a waste of time debate, I think everyone involved has thought a little more about why they think what they think and had to examine it.

I feel like many people of the carb guys do just what you say and throw no carb diets in the scrap heap as you put it. Im not saying everyone, many guys on here have said, it works for some not for all, which is the truth.

Someone else said that its funny people try to put on mass with no carbs, I beleive that is totally possible. It may not be as efficient but I gurantee it works for some people. Carbs ar enot a necessary nutrient in the body and it can produce. what is needed of carbs from protein and fat

Anyway, thats besides the point. My first instinct was to be combative of G's post, but after reading many of the posts on here, I think I understand his message a lot better. No ones word is gospel. The only thing that is, you need to eat a lot, train hard, and stop expecting results tomorrow. Basics are essential, carbs or no carbs dont matter.

[andrewT]

Great post G,

It has sparked a shitload of good information.

I hope my bulk or cut thread didn't spark this. Guys, don't be afraid to get BIG, your gonna gain a little bit of unsightly weight building the house underneath. Its natural, just don't let it get to epicly dangerous proprotions and drop cardio ( like I did..)

EAT UP!

[prafull]

this fits in nicely.... http://www.animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?section=diet&ID=415

amen to that.

[stumblin54]

I honestly do not believe that G's intent was to start a great debate under his original post. What I took out of it (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you should stick with the tried and true before dealing with all the BS that comes years down the road in competition bodybuilding or powerlifting. Anytime I learn or hear at the gym of the new hot diet on the scene that will get you ripped, I count my spoons and keep my mouth shut because I do believe there to be some truth to the saying, "The loudest in the room is the weakest," well, you get the point..

Stumblin

[IRBS]

Great post by G. This aint freakin rocket science...

I will defer to Matt Rhodes to sum up my feelings:

"Any man under 200lbs is a woman."

[simpleguy]

I will defer to Matt Rhodes to sum up my feelings:

"Any man under 200lbs is a woman."

lol, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought up until last year, Vinny competed at 198 and below... he still looked huge

[IRBS]

lol, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought up until last year, Vinny competed at 198 and below... he still looked huge

A bodybuilder who cuts down to 198 is not a viable argument. He might have been 198 for what, a day or 2??? LOL

I stand by my statement! LOL

[prowrestler]

A bodybuilder who cuts down to 198 is not a viable argument. He might have been 198 for what, a day or 2??? LOL

I stand by my statement! LOL

agreed

198 at 3% body fat doesnt count! its all about off season weight

[Dingo]

please get back to topic, that G so graciously started.

[JUGGERNAUT]

please get back to topic, that G so graciously started.

The correct and obvious choice. Carry on without carrying-on.

[Aggression]

please get back to topic, that G so graciously started.

My Attempt:

I wish I had someone to preach this type of stuff to me when I was younger. I went through various dieting phases. All might have had their place in the sun, but not one of them was followed through consistently enough to yield results. Back then, I was a big sucker for the diets planned out in the magazines. I'd try everyone that was suppose to ''add mass in 8 weeks''. Although they may have worked, I didn't give it enough time before the next issue came out with another, 'better' diet.

As I've grown in this game, I realize that 'there's nothing to it but to do it'. I'm still young, but I'm much more knowledgeable than I was a few years ago. Diets in general work when you give them time to work; when you stick with the plan. Every one here knows 'consistency' is the name of the game. Whether it be Keto, low-carb, or something else crazy, it all comes down to consistency and dedication.

I was the typical kid at 17 trying to cut. I ran with this scheme for a few summers until I made the decision to just bulk year round until I got to a certain level. I'm at that level now, and I will bulk until July. At that point, I will begin my contest prep diet for my first show in October.

[Dingo]

My Attempt:

.... consistency and dedication.



is that the new super supplement? (put the damned magazines down)

I'm glad G laid this one out here, He's helped to reaffirm that I shouldn't try a diet yet, unless i use the term diet as eating habits. I just need a few more minutes of cardio. I like wearing my Xl's at 220, plus it would make that climb to to 250 that much harder and less rewarding when i reach it to start a cut.

[Rhys]

please get back to topic, that G so graciously started.

For sure...this is a great thread by the way.

[born0withno0soul]

im so glad ox said what he did. its sickening to hear people say they want to be a bodybuilder but they have to bulk in the winter and cut in the summer. im with ox when i say im bulking year around and i dont give a shit how much i put on and who dont like looking at me.

[addiction543]

i don't post here often, but i'm going to say something in the same vein as g and ox. i see alot of younger guys here who are talking about cuts and strict diets 24/7/365, who arent anywhere near large enough to be worried about such things. you want to know what makes you truly a large muscular person? boatloading the protien, caloric excess and moving some heavy iron. the "ultra new caveman anabolic macrobolic 112.5% vitamin a super mass gain diet with 200 grams of protien" isn't going to help you on your quest. eating will.

the next part of what i am going to say here may ruffle some feathers but so be it.

i am by no means saying that while bulking up you should look like a real life version of cartman from south park, but i truly believe that if you want to become very large, you may have to give a little to gain a lot. what i mean by this is that you may need to put on a little excess fat to attain your goals, and THEN cut down when you far surpass those goals. i hate to use myself as an example, but right now i'm weighing in at a little over 230 at 5'11. i'm 19 and over the last four years i've gained about 70 pounds. ultimatly, i think that my style of eating is what has brought me the sucess i've had. during this time i have had little concern over how lean i was, and yes, i do have a little extra fat on me at this point, but i do a sensible amount of cardio to keep my bodyfat at a point where i'm comfortable, and thats all that matters. you can see the outline of my abs, my waist is in control, and right now thats enough for me. what i feel has brought me to the point i'm at right now is eating, and i will be the first to say i don't eat entirely clean. i would say i probaly eat at resturants about 5 times a week. i know someone out there is going to say that i could easily just bring food with me, and it's absolutly true. but you know what? having that food keeps me happy, sain, and gaining, and that's what's important. now i do follow a few guidelines when i'm getting food such as it must contain a substanital amount of protien, and must have some nutritional value, so things such has pizza, french fries, ect ect are off the table, but give me ten tacos for chipolte or 40 pieces of sushi and it's on

anyways, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, and i'm not trying to tear anyone down, it's just to help someone out there who was like me a few years ago, stuck at 180 and wondering why i was spinning my wheels until i figured it out. also sorry for this massive post haha

[Cstlfx]

This is why I became a powerlifter. I just have to eat healthy and clean and there's no need to ever worry about cutting unless I want to drop a weight class.

[MojoMike36]

Im in total agreement.


I've always said quietly to myself that until you're getting into the upper tier of competing your BF% shouln't go below 6-8% because you're only going to look silly small against a bunch of fellas that maintained by not doing all that much but cutting a few pounds and drying out.

Its just silly. Why look so small when you can look physically bigger, keep more mass, and sacrifice only a few cuts that might have been there had you decided to drop 30 lbs instead of 12?

When I will step on stage in 2010 for the first time I won't be shredded to the bone. Ill be somewhere in the middle. I'll be bigger and more physically "on" during the comp. and I believe I'll measure up quite nicely against many of the guys who took cutting to the extreme without the mass to back it up.

I think the line between bodybuilding and being totally vein and obsessed with ones image has blurred a large amount. Its more apparent on other forums for sure. I blame this for the high rate of 180 lbers trying to get shredded.

I had someone at the gym just two days ago, named Eric, tell me he wanted to get really shredded and lean. He weighed may 170 on a good day if I can eyeball him right. Really is he going to be a very impressive 5'10 145 lb. mass monster? Wow. I never really respected his training style and muscle mass but now I just don't respect him. I even told him how idiotic it was but he couldn't see any reason not to "just get shredded."

Perfect Post G. Love hearing what you say.

[born0withno0soul]

most of these guys do the damn summer cutting with a contest prep style diet so they can pretend to be a competition bodybuilder. they may have dreams of competing some day, but all the goofy ass diets they do just delays their goals. someone with the goal of competing on a stage should never cut until they are ready to compete.

[MojoMike36]

This thread is still on my mind and it just needs to be bumped. Its so freakin important for everyone to read.

It made me asking myself and notice, all these cats on here posting "I'm cutting" threads mid-winter. Why the hell would they even consider cutting during winter is a mystery to me.

BBing ain't a beauty competition but alot of guys can't get it through their head.
They're not cutting. In my opinion they're chickening out because they looked in the mirror and got upset about the way they look during a vulnerable moment. Thats weak.

On top of all that, you look bigger, healthier, and more attractive to most women if you're just average body fat. Which is easy to maintain while bulking with cardio.

[shizz702]

This thread has made me realize a cut won't be necessary for this summer, and I'm going to keep on getting my huge on instead.

[MojoMike36]

I vote this thread gets a sticky.

[MELTDOWN]

thinking out loud, i'm pretty sure the guys are not "cutting". beit the 18 y/o or 28 y/o. ask house, ox, big ant, any pro, semi pro, whatever, and cutting is getting shreadded, freaky vascular, and dry. i'm reading into alot of the " I'M CUTTING " threads that most are just wanting to loose weight and adjust diet to trim some fat. i've started a true cut for 2 shows (which both were halted by stoopid injuries) and it's no fun. and it's not something you throw in there during spring or early summer, like adding a new supplement or something. it's 12-16 weeks of your life that you'll never forget.

overall, tis is an outstanding thread either way you think...Carry On !!!

[born0withno0soul]

thinking out loud, i'm pretty sure the guys are not "cutting". beit the 18 y/o or 28 y/o. ask house, ox, big ant, any pro, semi pro, whatever, and cutting is getting shreadded, freaky vascular, and dry. i'm reading into alot of the " I'M CUTTING " threads that most are just wanting to loose weight and adjust diet to trim some fat. i've started a true cut for 2 shows (which both were halted by stoopid injuries) and it's no fun. and it's not something you throw in there during spring or early summer, like adding a new supplement or something. it's 12-16 weeks of your life that you'll never forget.

overall, tis is an outstanding thread either way you think...Carry On !!!

this is what alot of us are trying to say. contest diets like the keto are just that, "contest diets". these are not to be used as a damn everyday weight loss plan for the man wanting to simply look better. KAM i mean no disrespect, but im using you as an example. You go around promoting the keto to anyone who listens about losing weight, but a diet this strict and serious isnt needed for fat loss. Losing weight is simple as counitng calories. Thats all it takes to just lose weight. Keep a daily diary of your calories, if your not losing weight, you lower calories. You really have no right to promote a contest diet because you have never been in competition ready physique. You dont really know if you can reach the level of bodyfat needed to compete in a real show. These guys have to be in dangerously low bodyfat levels and so dry they shit tumbleweeds. When you reach that level you will have the right to preach a contest diet.

[prowrestler]

This thread has made me realize a cut won't be necessary for this summer, and I'm going to keep on getting my huge on instead.

thank god
i swear i never wanna read a cardio post in your journey LOL

[simpleguy]

i've started a true cut for 2 shows (which both were halted by stoopid injuries) and it's no fun. and it's not something you throw in there during spring or early summer, like adding a new supplement or something. it's 12-16 weeks of your life that you'll never forget.


you make it sound like a nightmare to be cutting... if in your mind cutting seems like a nightmare, you're gonna have a hard time doing it... no pun intended, just my two cents

see the good part in it, you're gonna look better, and more defined



this is what alot of us are trying to say. contest diets like the keto are just that, "contest diets". these are not to be used as a damn everyday weight loss plan for the man wanting to simply look better. KAM i mean no disrespect, but im using you as an example. You go around promoting the keto to anyone who listens about losing weight, but a diet this strict and serious isnt needed for fat loss. Losing weight is simple as counitng calories.

I don't know if anyone was recommending keto for weight loss, it's a diet for cutting, for shedding fat, not for losing weight...

and I mean no disrespect either, but I've seen many threads on internet boards and it always seems the guys who are naturally lean and tend to stay lean easily are the same guys that will tell you that you don't need a strict diet to lose fat

listen, I know everyone's different... if you want examples, for instance prowrestler's posts such as 'my weight varies depending on my wendy's intake' crack me up, the guy is funny, and I like joking on that topic as well... and I would never see him doing a keto diet, he probably could lean out on moderate to high carbs... but that's his body, he knows what works for him, so he doesn't need to go on a keto diet... doesn't mean it will be the same for everyone

just my two cents

[MELTDOWN]

you make it sound like a nightmare to be cutting... if in your mind cutting seems like a nightmare, you're gonna have a hard time doing it... no pun intended, just my two cents

see the good part in it, you're gonna look better, and more defined


so, at 18, how many real cuts have you done??? i can guess and prolly count on zero fingers. as i stated in my post a true CUT is hard and not just adding subway instead of burger king and drinking diet soda instead on energy drinks to lose a few pounds for spring break and your 'beach body'. go ahead and ask the pros, "nightmare" isn't close. yes it's alot strain and there's nothing that makes it fun. it kicks your ass in the dirt and drains your energy and drive. and keep in mind, as G and others stated, you first must have something to cut.oh yeah, bodybuilding is 90% mental, the other half is physical...Carry On !!!

[shizz702]

thank god
i swear i never wanna read a cardio post in your journey LOL

lol don't worry, you won't!

[born0withno0soul]

so, at 18, how many real cuts have you done??? i can guess and prolly count on zero fingers. as i stated in my post a true CUT is hard and not just adding subway instead of burger king and drinking diet soda instead on energy drinks to slose a few pounds for spring break and your 'beach body'. go ahead and ask the pros, "nightmare" isn't close. yes it's alot strain and there's nothing that makes it fun. it kicks your ass in the dirt and drains your energy and drive. and keep in mind, as G and others stated, you first must have something to cut.oh yeah, bodybuilding is 90% mental, the other half is physical...Carry On !!!

thanks meltdown. people just lose a little fat so they can fit in theri summer jeans have not even the slightest idea how hard it is to contest diet. I have done one show, and it was the toughest and most miserable thing i have ever done. Sure the first few weeks are easy, dropping 10-15 lbs are easy. When you start getting down to those last few weeks, where the average joe will quit and say they are lean enough for the beach, the bodybuilding lifestyle reveals itself. that is when your true mental strength is threatened and tested.

[simpleguy]

so, at 18, how many real cuts have you done??? i can guess and prolly count on zero fingers. as i stated in my post a true CUT is hard and not just adding subway instead of burger king and drinking diet soda instead on energy drinks to lose a few pounds for spring break and your 'beach body'. go ahead and ask the pros, "nightmare" isn't close. yes it's alot strain and there's nothing that makes it fun. it kicks your ass in the dirt and drains your energy and drive. and keep in mind, as G and others stated, you first must have something to cut.oh yeah, bodybuilding is 90% mental, the other half is physical...Carry On !!!

well I guess I should be off from this thread if you know that well how many cuts I've done and what I've been going through them...

[prowrestler]

anything more productive then arguin about the difference between a cut and loosing weight?

lets not turn the only good thread the forum has had in a while into an argument.

simpleguy said he cut, his age doesnt matter, ever hear about teen bodybuilding?
and so what if it wasnt for a competition? he said cut vs fat loss wich is pretty much the same thing. lets not get all technical hear and ruin G's thread over stupidity.

[rob_in_korea]

Great post G. I went from a horribly thin 133lbs (I am 6' tall) at 18 to 225 right now and I never once thought about doing a cut along the way. My plan is once I get to around 240 I'll do a little cut just to see how it goes.

-Rob

[MELTDOWN]

well I guess I should be off from this thread if you know that well how many cuts I've done and what I've been going through them...

you make it sound like a nightmare to be on this thread... if in your mind being on this thread seems like a nightmare, you're gonna have a hard time doing it... no pun intended, just my two cents.

see the good part in it, you're gonna learn better, and more defined in your words and thought processes.

[GJN5002]

this is what alot of us are trying to say. contest diets like the keto are just that, "contest diets". these are not to be used as a damn everyday weight loss plan for the man wanting to simply look better. KAM i mean no disrespect, but im using you as an example. You go around promoting the keto to anyone who listens about losing weight, but a diet this strict and serious isnt needed for fat loss. Losing weight is simple as counitng calories. Thats all it takes to just lose weight. Keep a daily diary of your calories, if your not losing weight, you lower calories. You really have no right to promote a contest diet because you have never been in competition ready physique. You dont really know if you can reach the level of bodyfat needed to compete in a real show. These guys have to be in dangerously low bodyfat levels and so dry they shit tumbleweeds. When you reach that level you will have the right to preach a contest diet.

Look Im not debating the fact that people who have never done a real cut for a show dont really cut when they lose the winter fat for the summer. My training partner just did a contest and was pretty miserable on his cutting diet, I have never done one Ive only done the"i want to look better for summer thing," which isnt easy either when youre used to shoveling food down 8 months out of the year. Just because Ive never cut for a show doesnt mean I am any less credable than anyone else. Just because Ive never attained a bf% of 2 doesnt mean I dont know more or as much as someone who has.

Also, just because I want to cut back on my calories and slim down (I wont say cut because I dont want to offend any holier than thou's) doesnt mean keto isnt a viable option. Its the same concept as just cutting back your calories to lose weight, without carbs. It isnt 'extreme." As far as dieting, I am anti-carb for myself. I would never say no one should ever eat carbs on a cut, but many people are too fast too say unless youre a pro or cant fit through a door, dont do keto. Take a second and look into the science instead of using broscience.

Before I get attacked by 100 people, this is not aimed at G's post, I fully understand him and agree with him, this is for the people who think because youve done one show makes you a better bodybuilder than anyone else. We're here to support eachother, not shit on eachothers ideas. If you think Im wrong for believing somethign, explain to me why Im wrong rather than saying until I do a show I have no room to talk

Put your work in, eat your food, and keep an open mind.

[Wasteland]

Just because Ive never cut for a show doesnt mean I am any less credable than anyone else. Just because Ive never attained a bf% of 2 doesnt mean I dont know more or as much as someone who has.

I fully understand him and agree with him, this is for the people who think because youve done one show makes you a better bodybuilder than anyone else. We're here to support eachother, not shit on eachothers ideas. If you think Im wrong for believing somethign, explain to me why Im wrong rather than saying until I do a show I have no room to talk

Put your work in, eat your food, and keep an open mind.

I'd like to think I have an open mind and approach things from a logical and commonsensical point of view. And, respectfully, I'd have to disagree with you. Unless you've walked in someone else's shoes, you really can't begin to know a person.

So unless you've competed, and unless you've dieted for a show, I don't think you can be as credible as someone who has on the topic of precontest preparation. There's a big difference knowing how to do something on paper (theory) and knowing how to really do it (practice).

It certainly doesn't mean that you can't weigh in with your opinion--you certainly can. But to me, this is tantamount to saying something like, "I don't lift weights, but my opinions are as credible as anyone's on how to lift weights." Frankly, not everyone's opinions have the same weight here (or in life) and there are those who have much more experience and expertise than I will ever have. I'm not ashamed to admit this.

Ultimately, I don't think this issue is about people who have competed and having a superiority complex. I haven't seen that here. Nor do I think people are raising the issue that anyone is talking in terms of being the "better bodybuilder". There is tremendous support here. That said, this place is for debating ideas and issues. Therefore, I stand by my original contention that some people have more credibility than others. The real trick is knowing the limitations of our knowledge and posting in a manner that reflects those limitations.

[simpleguy]

I'd like to think I have an open mind and approach things from a logical and commonsensical point of view. And, respectfully, I'd have to disagree with you. Unless you've walked in someone else's shoes, you really can't begin to know a person.

So unless you've competed, and unless you've dieted for a show, I don't think you can be as credible as someone who has on the topic of precontest preparation. There's a big difference knowing how to do something on paper (theory) and knowing how to really do it (practice).



I think he meant he has been on a cut (or more) before, just not for a show... which was the same in my case...

I also think if you need a show to really motivate you to do everything it takes for your cut to be successful you should reflect a bit upon your values... the reason I'm saying this is because I've heard said many times in this thread 'unless you've cut for a show'... do you really need to step on a stage to make your body change?

[IRBS]

"A man with experience is never at the mercy of anyone with a theory."

[GJN5002]

I'd like to think I have an open mind and approach things from a logical and commonsensical point of view. And, respectfully, I'd have to disagree with you. Unless you've walked in someone else's shoes, you really can't begin to know a person.

So unless you've competed, and unless you've dieted for a show, I don't think you can be as credible as someone who has on the topic of precontest preparation. There's a big difference knowing how to do something on paper (theory) and knowing how to really do it (practice).

It certainly doesn't mean that you can't weigh in with your opinion--you certainly can. But to me, this is tantamount to saying something like, "I don't lift weights, but my opinions are as credible as anyone's on how to lift weights." Frankly, not everyone's opinions have the same weight here (or in life) and there are those who have much more experience and expertise than I will ever have. I'm not ashamed to admit this.

Ultimately, I don't think this issue is about people who have competed and having a superiority complex. I haven't seen that here. Nor do I think people are raising the issue that anyone is talking in terms of being the "better bodybuilder". There is tremendous support here. That said, this place is for debating ideas and issues. Therefore, I stand by my original contention that some people have more credibility than others. The real trick is knowing the limitations of our knowledge and posting in a manner that reflects those limitations.

Good post wasteland. We have have differences in our opinions but you make some good, and very valid points. I agree that some people have more credibility than others, but just because youve done a show or two doesnt mean you know more than someone who hasnt. There are many knowledgeable people who dont compete but still understand more than most bodybuilders, but I get your point. I think I may have just been a bit defensive because so many times on internet forums you get guys with little experience or expertise giving others bad advise and using all encompassing statements.

[Wasteland]

I think he meant he has been on a cut (or more) before, just not for a show... which was the same in my case...

I also think if you need a show to really motivate you to do everything it takes for your cut to be successful you should reflect a bit upon your values... the reason I'm saying this is because I've heard said many times in this thread 'unless you've cut for a show'... do you really need to step on a stage to make your body change?

Perhaps I misread this post. It sounded to me like he was stating that you didn't need to diet for a show to talk as credibly as someone who did.

I'm not sure anyone was saying that you need to prepare for a show to have a successful cut. But I could be mistaken. Instead, I think some members have been suggesting that dieting in general, while similar, is not the same thing as preparing/dieting for a bodybuilding show.

Here's an analogy. I know how to ride a bike, so I can ride a BMX bike. Maybe I've read many books on how to do tricks on a BMX bike. But just because I can ride a bike in gneral, it doesn't mean I can actually do the tricks on that bike. Nor does book/theoretical knowledge of those techniques qualify me to teach others how to do tricks on that bike. On the subject of BMX bike tricks, my opinions would not be as "credible" as those who are experts in the sport. Ask me a question about bike riding down the street and, well sure, I could talk credibly about that. See the distinction?

[krazyassmexican]

Losing weight is simple as counitng calories. Thats all it takes to just lose weight. Keep a daily diary of your calories, if your not losing weight, you lower calories.

first of all i dont promote no diets, if they ask questions i try to help that is it


second of all with all due respect your statement is ignorant as hell

you said if i am never been on a pre contest condition i dont have the right to talk about it
ok

i said if you never been fat dont talk about how to lose weight

[Wasteland]

Good post wasteland. We have have differences in our opinions but you make some good, and very valid points. I agree that some people have more credibility than others, but just because youve done a show or two doesnt mean you know more than someone who hasnt. There are many knowledgeable people who dont compete but still understand more than most bodybuilders, but I get your point. I think I may have just been a bit defensive because so many times on internet forums you get guys with little experience or expertise giving others bad advise and using all encompassing statements.

I've been a part of many forums and you're right--it's easy for many to get defensive. That said, this place is not like other forums I think.

The internet is a great thing and it has done much to truly "democratize" the flow of information and knowledge. Knowledge should never be left solely in the hands of "experts", to create and to distribute. There is more information available to the average citizen than ever before and this access is unprecedented. But, as with all things that are a part of the human endeavor, this is both good and bad. There is a lot of good information and there is a lot of bad information.

But, even assuming all the information was good, there's this complication. It's not just about having access to knowledge--it's knowing how to interpret it, use it, frame it, and then apply it. All too often, I've seen people take some basic information, and use it to guide an entire approach. I agree with your last point. That's why I was stressing the importance of talking (and posting) responsibly. It can be difficult acknowledging your shortcomings, but I believe it's often more important to listen (or read in this case) than to speak (or write).

[Wasteland]

"A man with experience is never at the mercy of anyone with a theory."

What happens in between is where the trouble happens, lol.

[Mizzarler]

so true...kinda makes me not wanna cut lol

[prowrestler]

you bodybuilders fight over the supidest things....

loosen up abit and bust open a bag of oreos, chill man

[BaseballMonster]

Real Gains is the only fucking good piece of my arsenal!

[MELTDOWN]

you bodybuilders fight over the supidest things....

loosen up abit and bust open a bag of oreos, chill man

a klondike bar is part of my bulking program LOL..

[prowrestler]

a klondike bar is part of my bulking program LOL..

make that an oreo ice cream sandwich and we are in business

[violator]

wow...the last 2 pages of this thread look like they belong in BB.com...haha...

[StockRock]

First off, great posts G Diesel and Wasteland. I have to agree with G here. Having my own thread on this forum and being someone who follows a ketogenic diet pre-contest, a lot of the questions that I get asked pertain to the keto diet. There are a few things that we have to get straight here.

1. I trained for 8 years before I ever even thought about competing. You can pretty much count that as one long offseason. I didn't give a fuck if I was lean or fat. Looking good during the summer didn't matter to me. I did whatever I felt would help me progress. I could have competed as a teen but waited until I built a mentionable base first.

2. This is bodybuilding. This is not fitness or figure. If you just want to be small and lean then that's fine. But you don't need to train like a bodybuilder, follow a pre-contest diet or live life like you're getting ready for the stage just to be small and lean. It's just not necessary. The name of the game is muscle. Anyone can be small and ripped...no one gives a shit. Some SERIOUS time spent training and eating like a BODYBUILDER is a must before the thought of ANY diet should even be a thought in your head.

3. Keto is not for everyone. I've seen it work well for both natural and enhanced bodybuilders...both men and women. And I've seen other people tank on it. The bottom line is that anyone who hasn't put in some serious time and put on a serious amount of muscle should not even be considering keto or any other diet just because they're a little soft. C'mon.

4. Wasteland is right...the fucking most miniscule details are NOT THAT IMPORTANT to someone who is a beginner! All you need to know is train like a fuckin animal and eat up! God damn it. I'm polite and answer everyone's questions but seriously, there are times when people ask me the most specific detailed shit and it's someone who just started working out. Granted, there's a lot of shit I've learned over the years but sometimes people complicate this shit way too much. And doing exactly what I do is not the answer. I'm not you and you're not me.

I love you guys and sincerely want to help in any way I can. But sometimes you guys gotta take a step back. This is bodybuilding. Body-building. Not bodysculpting. Not bodyfatlosing. We train. We eat. We do whatever we have to do to BUILD (key word) the physique we want. Once we build it, then we clean shit up. But this is a LONG procsess. You don't "bulk" for a winter and "cut" for the summer. Motherfucker you spend years building this shit.


This is a long time coming, but it needs to be said...

The young guys here, looking to take their physique and their strength from the beginner stages to the next level up, need to avoid the advice of the online gurus and their gimmick diet bullshit.

I've noticed for a while now, that kids at the earliest stages of their development begin to follow the recommendations of the drug gurus, thinking that their diet applications apply to them and will transform them into a high level NPC monster. This is not the case, I assure you.

If you are under 220 lbs and have been lifting less than 5 years, you should not be doing a keto diet, thinking it will make you look like an IFBB pro. It will not. More than likely, you will starve yourself down into a tinier version of your old physique.

Ox looks the way Ox does because he built a huge base of raw mass over years and years of eating quality whole foods, including carbs. His offseason diet, as seen in the new MD includes OJ, quaker oats, Torrent, potatoes and sweet potatoes everyday. His zero carb keto approach is used for his precontest diet. My boy House goes weeks and weeks in the precontest without a single carb, but guess what? Offseason, the dude drinks Real Gains shakes mixed with a cup of oat bran and whole milk multiple times daily. These two eat like the huge athletes they are to stay that way and continue to grow and they ate even more to get there in the first place.

It saddens me, when the primary catalyst for the growth process is somewhat cast aside by these supposed gurus. Yeah, I'm talking about training. The kind of heavy, consistent, intense training that your favorite IFBB pro did for years and years before anybody knew their names and they were ever in a magazine.

You see, the fine print in the advice of so many of these experts is the great unspoken "d word". The drug aspect of the sport, while now more openly discussed, is the elephant in the room of bbing and it probably always will be. Either it is shoved down young guys' throats as their only option for progress or it is altogether left out when diet advice is disseminated. Good because 99% of people in the world that lift weights shouldn't even contemplate the use of anabolics. Bad because diet advice that is dependent on drug use, doesn't work so well when drugs aren't used. They leave out that waxy maize became so popular because it worked really well with insulin or other similar unspoken truths.

I've heard enough horror stories about guys with feet that grow 3 sizes in their thirties from the use of GH and exotic peptides to take a "buyer beware" approach when it comes to who I listen to regarding my diet and training and supplementation. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone or to outright piss on anybody's parade... I just want the guys on here to reach their goals and to not be sold a bill of goods by people that don't give a fuck about you or your goals or your health.

Hard and heavy training, the copious consumption of quality whole foods, basic supplementation--these are not fads. These are not dependent on having a back alley juice hookup or a digital scale to weigh your orange roughy or a whole foods boutique through which to purchase exotic nut butters. These won't go out of style, these won't steal your money, these won't lead you astray.

Peace, G



Well, I'm inspired.

[HOCKEY TEMPER]

Just a bump to one of G's most on point posts to date.

[N. Motta]

Great, great post G.

You knocked it out of the park.

People just getting into this game need to take this thread to the bank.

[strivin for more]

i hadnt read this post when it came out, but i just did.

about 6 months ago i was that kid that weighed 165 pounds at 5 foot eleven thinking if i got 1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, it was enough to get jacked and shredded at the same time. i stumbled upon a keto diet by accident (i thought the less carbs the better) and hey, i was shredded, but how huge is 165 pounds? ill tell ya.

not much.

i dont wanna repeat this like eveyone else, but this was a great reminder of what really makes up the "backstage" of bodybuilding.

[t_mh]

Very nice, G. It's great to see genuine care for health and safety in a sport that can walk a fine line of dangerous practices.

[krazyassmexican]

Very nice, G. It's great to see genuine care for health and safety in a sport that can walk a fine line of dangerous practices.

can you explain me how eating the way you are genetically predisposed to eat it's a dangerous practice?

i have done this kind of diet before and i am still alive
and probably healthier plenty people here bashing keto diets

[t_mh]

I wasn't referring directly to keto-- I'm sure it's fine. Most of the people on this forum have tried it and their all alive. I thought this was a good post because G Diesel stressed the basics and discouraged the fads.

[LegendKillerJosh]

This is a long time coming, but it needs to be said...

The young guys here, looking to take their physique and their strength from the beginner stages to the next level up, need to avoid the advice of the online gurus and their gimmick diet bullshit.

I've noticed for a while now, that kids at the earliest stages of their development begin to follow the recommendations of the drug gurus, thinking that their diet applications apply to them and will transform them into a high level NPC monster. This is not the case, I assure you.

If you are under 220 lbs and have been lifting less than 5 years, you should not be doing a keto diet, thinking it will make you look like an IFBB pro. It will not. More than likely, you will starve yourself down into a tinier version of your old physique.

Ox looks the way Ox does because he built a huge base of raw mass over years and years of eating quality whole foods, including carbs. His offseason diet, as seen in the new MD includes OJ, quaker oats, Torrent, potatoes and sweet potatoes everyday. His zero carb keto approach is used for his precontest diet. My boy House goes weeks and weeks in the precontest without a single carb, but guess what? Offseason, the dude drinks Real Gains shakes mixed with a cup of oat bran and whole milk multiple times daily. These two eat like the huge athletes they are to stay that way and continue to grow and they ate even more to get there in the first place.

It saddens me, when the primary catalyst for the growth process is somewhat cast aside by these supposed gurus. Yeah, I'm talking about training. The kind of heavy, consistent, intense training that your favorite IFBB pro did for years and years before anybody knew their names and they were ever in a magazine.

You see, the fine print in the advice of so many of these experts is the great unspoken "d word". The drug aspect of the sport, while now more openly discussed, is the elephant in the room of bbing and it probably always will be. Either it is shoved down young guys' throats as their only option for progress or it is altogether left out when diet advice is disseminated. Good because 99% of people in the world that lift weights shouldn't even contemplate the use of anabolics. Bad because diet advice that is dependent on drug use, doesn't work so well when drugs aren't used. They leave out that waxy maize became so popular because it worked really well with insulin or other similar unspoken truths.

I've heard enough horror stories about guys with feet that grow 3 sizes in their thirties from the use of GH and exotic peptides to take a "buyer beware" approach when it comes to who I listen to regarding my diet and training and supplementation. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone or to outright piss on anybody's parade... I just want the guys on here to reach their goals and to not be sold a bill of goods by people that don't give a fuck about you or your goals or your health.

Hard and heavy training, the copious consumption of quality whole foods, basic supplementation--these are not fads. These are not dependent on having a back alley juice hookup or a digital scale to weigh your orange roughy or a whole foods boutique through which to purchase exotic nut butters. These won't go out of style, these won't steal your money, these won't lead you astray.

Peace, G

This is my favorite post of all time on this forum.

[On Letting Go]

Just read through the entire thread... and im glad i did.

Gotta love the input from G and Ox. No bullshit there. This thread was a wake-up call for me. No more worrying about the minutiae. I'll be eating to build some real mass and not even thinkin about cutting until im jacked to the hilt.

OLG

[krazyassmexican]

Just read through the entire thread... and im glad i did.

Gotta love the input from G and Ox. No bullshit there. This thread was a wake-up call for me. No more worrying about the minutiae. I'll be eating to build some real mass and not even thinkin about cutting until im jacked to the hilt.

OLG

people confuses "being jacked" with having over 25% BF

[Ironjaw]

LMAO i luv this thread and i thank G for posting it... i agree with both sides to this arguement tho... such diets work for you great ... but thats not the only road and that shouldn't be your 1st road... i have done 3 shows so far and hell that aint alot by any means but the experience has taught me a great lesson because n each i took a different approach to how i dieted... my NPC show that was my middle show was by far the best i looked probably shredded wise because i did a regular diet my 3rd however i cut down pretty good but i lost some good shit with it ... why cuz i followed 1 of the advertised diets ... so truthfully play around wth how your body works... and dont assume someone who's been in the biz for eons... has the right approach for you ... thats just my opinion tho

[G Diesel]

people confuses "being jacked" with having over 25% BF

In a lot of cases, krazy, I think you're right. Though I also know a lot of guys that would rather be 210 at 15% than 165 at 6%.

Peace, G

[Ironjaw]

In a lot of cases, krazy, I think you're right. Though I also know a lot of guys that would rather be 210 at 15% than 165 at 6%.

Peace, G

amen bro

[Fury317]

In a lot of cases, krazy, I think you're right. Though I also know a lot of guys that would rather be 210 at 15% than 165 at 6%.

Peace, G

Thank you.

[On Letting Go]

In a lot of cases, krazy, I think you're right. Though I also know a lot of guys that would rather be 210 at 15% than 165 at 6%.

Peace, G

True that.

[Firefist]

people confuses "being jacked" with having over 25% BF

to each his own...


In a lot of cases, krazy, I think you're right. Though I also know a lot of guys that would rather be 210 at 15% than 165 at 6%.

Peace, G

add me to that list.

[andrewT]

add me to that list.

And I as well

[IronWilson]

If your goal is to be a respectable physique, why would you want to be heavier while carrying a lot of fat when you can be lean, healthy, strong, and gain the same amount of mass that you would anyway sans the fat?

Most of us will never see the stage. So what is the point of getting really fat, then having to suffer and lose muscle through hardcore dieting, then gain back the fat back easier on the next bulk? What ends up happening is that your body becomes more efficient at storing fat.

I find this thread to be one giant misunderstanding of a good message.

[Firefist]

If your goal is to be a respectable physique, why would you want to be heavier while carrying a lot of fat when you can be lean, healthy, strong, and gain the same amount of mass that you would anyway sans the fat?

Most of us will never see the stage. So what is the point of getting really fat, then having to suffer and lose muscle through hardcore dieting, then gain back the fat back easier on the next bulk? What ends up happening is that your body becomes more efficient at storing fat.

I find this thread to be one giant misunderstanding of a good message.

with respect, i think most of us are not saying to go and get fat. we just feel that it is nessesary to get more calories in to help us grow. if we start carrying a some fat, so be it. I think we all got the sense in us that if it got to that point where we were actually "fat" and not "bulky" we would clean it up a bit and or do some cardio.

and yes, i do believe that a portion of this thread has been a misunderstanding, and I apologize if i have done anything to lead this thread astray.

My take on the original post and what i am going to do:

Train hard, eat often, stick to the proven basics, build a good base, and then lets talk about taking it to the next level.

It seems that everything I read has the disclaimer "everyone is entitled to thier own opinions". Well, with respect and thought to all other posts on this thread, that is my opinion.

[IronWilson]

with respect, i think most of us are not saying to go and get fat. we just feel that it is nessesary to get more calories in to help us grow. if we start carrying a some fat, so be it. I think we all got the sense in us that if it got to that point where we were actually "fat" and not "bulky" we would clean it up a bit and or do some cardio.

and yes, i do believe that a portion of this thread has been a misunderstanding, and I apologize if i have done anything to lead this thread astray.

My take on the original post and what i am going to do:

Train hard, eat often, stick to the proven basics, build a good base, and then lets talk about taking it to the next level.

It seems that everything I read has the disclaimer "everyone is entitled to thier own opinions". Well, with respect and thought to all other posts on this thread, that is my opinion.

it sounds like you have a good understanding of what you need to do. But a lot of people who are new to the game get on here and see people saying stuff like" "EAT LIKE AN ANIMAL" or "EAT UNTIL IT HURTS, THEN EAT SOME MORE." Obviously, they just mean not to be a wuss when it comes to your diet, but a lot people don't understand that.

The first time I bulked, I wanted to eat to gain mass. I listened to everyone who said to eat huge but I didn't know what that really meant. So, here was my bulking diet at 180 lbs. (at the time):

1. 9 egg whites, 4 whole eggs, 2 cups Oatmeal, orange juice
2. 2 scoops of whey, 70g of carbs from Creatine product (pure sugar), rice cakes
3. more than 9 0z. Chicken breast with 2.5 cups of rice
4. 1 lb ground beef on wheat bread, apple.
5. 10 oz. steak, a really big sweet potato
6. Large Chicken breast, Veggies, Oatmeal, Peanut Butter

Throughout the day, I would eat nuts and peanut butter when I was hungry between meals. I have a truly bottomless pit of a stomach, haha. A ate A LOT of clean food. Just because it was clean food didn't save me from gaining fat. i did gain muscle, but a lot of fat as well, because it was way too much food for my weight at the time. Then I cut, I cut until my body started to give me signs of extreme starvation. I felt sick everyday, and lost A LOT of muscle with that fat. Then when I came off cutting because I was forced to, I gained a lot of fat back.

It is just plain not healthy. Particularly if you don't compete. This is why I feel so passionate about people telling beginners to eat "everything that is not nailed down." It is very misleading. I know that they did that in the 50's and 60's. But we have better knowledge now, so why not use it?

Now, I feel that I am gaining as much muscle as I did on that diet, with less fat. So I ask, what is the point of doing this when it doesn't need to be done this way?

[Firefist]

it sounds like you have a good understanding of what you need to do. But a lot of people who are new to the game get on here and see people saying stuff like" "EAT LIKE AN ANIMAL" or "EAT UNTIL IT HURTS, THEN EAT SOME MORE." Obviously, they just mean not to be a wuss when it comes to your diet, but a lot people don't understand that.

The first time I bulked, I wanted to eat to gain mass. I listened to everyone who said to eat huge but I didn't know what that really meant. So, here was my bulking diet at 180 lbs. (at the time):

1. 9 egg whites, 4 whole eggs, 2 cups Oatmeal, orange juice
2. 2 scoops of whey, 70g of carbs from Creatine product (pure sugar), rice cakes
3. more than 9 0z. Chicken breast with 2.5 cups of rice
4. 1 lb ground beef on wheat bread, apple.
5. 10 oz. steak, a really big sweet potato
6. Large Chicken breast, Veggies, Oatmeal, Peanut Butter

Throughout the day, I would eat nuts and peanut butter when I was hungry between meals. I have a truly bottomless pit of a stomach, haha. A ate A LOT of clean food. Just because it was clean food didn't save me from gaining fat. i did gain muscle, but a lot of fat as well, because it was way too much food for my weight at the time. Then I cut, I cut until my body started to give me signs of extreme starvation. I felt sick everyday, and lost A LOT of muscle with that fat. Then when I came off cutting because I was forced to, I gained a lot of fat back.

It is just plain not healthy. Particularly if you don't compete. This is why I feel so passionate about people telling beginners to eat "everything that is not nailed down." It is very misleading. I know that they did that in the 50's and 60's. But we have better knowledge now, so why not use it?

Now, I feel that I am gaining as much muscle as I did on that diet, with less fat. So I ask, what is the point of doing this when it doesn't need to be done this way?

everyones body is different, everyones thought proccess is different. Like alot of the sayings overused on this forum, but that statement remains true. I know that even though I am eating a large (and almost, but not completely copious) ammount of food, I see gains in size, a little fat, but the abs outlined. 4 of my 8 meals consist of pasta and shredded chicken, hell, i go through almost a box of pasta a day! We all react differently to different training, different foods and thier portions, etc. If i tried to do House's or Ox's offseason diet, do you think I would put on unnessesary weight? ABSOLUTELY. why? because that diet isnt suited for me. I know from (sadly) past experience that without an ample supply of carbs and enough calories, my body just cant progress. I think its great that you have found out what works for you, and that you are seeing gains. but at the end of the day, some things work for some people and it may not work for everyone else.

[Wasteland]

I think one of the important messages in this thread is simple. Resist the temptation to follow the diets and training programs of the "pros". Assuming the information we read in magazines is even accurate, the pros are operating at a level we will likely never experience. You can't expect to take Ox's actual pre-contest diet (assuming you had it), follow it, and get the same results. He's a pro, for starters. But also, there are other variables at play--you can't take one piece of the puzzle (his diet, say) in isolation, and expect it to lead to the same place. Plus, that diet has been tailored for him, by him, through much personal trial and error. To complicate matters, the information that we read in magazines about this athlete's diet or that bodybuilder's training program may not even be true. What articles are actually written by the athlete and which articles are ghostwritten? I realize there's great temptation, especially for beginners, to do what they believe the pros are doing, but this approach will likely not make any sense. For the rest of us, we need to follow the basics of training and nutrition, and not overcomplicate things, or get bogged down with specific details.

[Sphinx]

I think one of the important messages in this thread is simple. Resist the temptation to follow the diets and training programs of the "pros". Assuming the information we read in magazines is even accurate, the pros are operating at a level we will likely never experience. You can't expect to take Ox's actual pre-contest diet (assuming you had it), follow it, and get the same results. He's a pro, for starters. But also, there are other variables at play--you can't take one piece of the puzzle (his diet, say) in isolation, and expect it to lead to the same place. Plus, that diet has been tailored for him, by him, through much personal trial and error. To complicate matters, the information that we read in magazines about this athlete's diet or that bodybuilder's training program may not even be true. What articles are actually written by the athlete and which articles are ghostwritten? I realize there's great temptation, especially for beginners, to do what they believe the pros are doing, but this approach will likely not make any sense. For the rest of us, we need to follow the basics of training and nutrition, and not overcomplicate things, or get bogged down with specific details.

I'll second that, my first year when I started weight lifting for myself was all one big experiment. I had to try all sorts of foods in amounts I didn't normally eat, and train in ways I'd never known about.

Its been a year and a half now and I think I've finally built a foundation of what does and doesn't work for me. Of course, I'm still learning something new everyday, and I'm still trying new foods and workouts. The best advice I got was to stop over analyzing everything and just do it, there is no workout, or diet that is set in stone to guarantee results.

[B.C.]

Good post.

Here's proof....written BY House ABOUT House.

http://www.animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?section=diet&ID=321

JUST a word of caution:

If you attempt to make the oatmeal cookie House refers to in this article, DON'T USE PYREX!! I just exploded a Pyrex measuring bowl in my microwave. It just shattered! I am attempting to improvise right now, and I'm going to bake it inside an oven safe sauce-pan. I hope it works, because I'm eating 1 cup of un-prepared oats for breakfast every day for the next three months, and that is a huge ass bowl of oatmeat. I'm really hoping to find a better way.

[futurefreak101]

epic quote right here


I love you guys and sincerely want to help in any way I can. But sometimes you guys gotta take a step back. This is bodybuilding. Body-building. Not bodysculpting. Not bodyfatlosing. We train. We eat. We do whatever we have to do to BUILD (key word) the physique we want. Once we build it, then we clean shit up. But this is a LONG procsess. You don't "bulk" for a winter and "cut" for the summer. Motherfucker you spend years building this shit

[LegendKillerJosh]

epic quote right here


I love you guys and sincerely want to help in any way I can. But sometimes you guys gotta take a step back. This is bodybuilding. Body-building. Not bodysculpting. Not bodyfatlosing. We train. We eat. We do whatever we have to do to BUILD (key word) the physique we want. Once we build it, then we clean shit up. But this is a LONG procsess. You don't "bulk" for a winter and "cut" for the summer. Motherfucker you spend years building this shit

I'm in love with the oldest bodybuilding "secrets." G-Diesel definitely knows as good as anyone. Many things are battle-tested and will never go away. The basics - heavy training and heavy eating. Yeah, a Keto diet is a terrible idea for someone who's 180 trying to get shredded. To fuel your workouts and build muscle, you need quality foods. And don't get caught up with fucking percentages or calculations. If you eat quality protein like beef, eggs, chicken, fish, pork, milk and other dairy, and supplement with whey protein, uniliver, nitro and other goodies (which aren't completely neccessary), and eat quality carbs like rice, pasta, whole wheat, rye or pumpernickel bread, oatmeal, fruits and vegetables, and quality fats from nuts and oils, and do it consistently, you will build a healthy, muscular physique and fuel yourself up for strong, effective workouts. And don't ever try to rush. Don't avoid going out with your friends in high school because you are "dieting." You can't/won't be the biggest or strongest person ever most likely in your lifetime, and especially not by age 20. Consistency is key. Hundreds of workouts and thousands of meals over possibly DECADES of time will get you where you want to be. Now go ahead animals, and eat a nice and rich meal and get to bed early and rest. Because you will be stronger tomorrow than you are now, and weaker tomorrow than the day after that.

[LegendKillerJosh]

it sounds like you have a good understanding of what you need to do. But a lot of people who are new to the game get on here and see people saying stuff like" "EAT LIKE AN ANIMAL" or "EAT UNTIL IT HURTS, THEN EAT SOME MORE." Obviously, they just mean not to be a wuss when it comes to your diet, but a lot people don't understand that.



Fuck yeah. There is a post like that in the Animal Owner's Manual. I think it might have been G's "eat like a man" but can't remember for sure. It said something like "whether it be a protein shake, chicken breast and rice, or Mickey-D's, by all means, EAT. Don't waste all that sweat and sacrifice you put in the gym because you are too pussy to eat when you need to."

[Muscleguy93]

I love you guys and sincerely want to help in any way I can. But sometimes you guys gotta take a step back. This is bodybuilding. Body-building. Not bodysculpting. Not bodyfatlosing. We train. We eat. We do whatever we have to do to BUILD (key word) the physique we want. Once we build it, then we clean shit up. But this is a LONG procsess. You don't "bulk" for a winter and "cut" for the summer. Motherfucker you spend years building this shit

I love this.

[LegendKillerJosh]

people confuses "being jacked" with having over 25% BF

Not everyone cares about being "ripped." I don't care what I look like. I just want to be bigger and stronger like a Phil Pfister, those are the guys I idolize.

[G Diesel]

I'm in love with the oldest bodybuilding "secrets." G-Diesel definitely knows as good as anyone. Many things are battle-tested and will never go away. The basics - heavy training and heavy eating. Yeah, a Keto diet is a terrible idea for someone who's 180 trying to get shredded. To fuel your workouts and build muscle, you need quality foods. And don't get caught up with fucking percentages or calculations. If you eat quality protein like beef, eggs, chicken, fish, pork, milk and other dairy, and supplement with whey protein, uniliver, nitro and other goodies (which aren't completely neccessary), and eat quality carbs like rice, pasta, whole wheat, rye or pumpernickel bread, oatmeal, fruits and vegetables, and quality fats from nuts and oils, and do it consistently, you will build a healthy, muscular physique and fuel yourself up for strong, effective workouts. And don't ever try to rush. Don't avoid going out with your friends in high school because you are "dieting." You can't/won't be the biggest or strongest person ever most likely in your lifetime, and especially not by age 20. Consistency is key. Hundreds of workouts and thousands of meals over possibly DECADES of time will get you where you want to be. Now go ahead animals, and eat a nice and rich meal and get to bed early and rest. Because you will be stronger tomorrow than you are now, and weaker tomorrow than the day after that.

Good post LKJ... This is a dude that gets it.

I agree with your point about not everyone looking to be shredded also. The key for many of us, is to be muscular and healthy. Do I want to be leaner? Absolutely. Do I want to look like an underwear model or can I expect to have the mass and condition of an IFBB pro? Not bloody likely on either account. But that is OK. I've just gotta do me on my terms to the best of my ability, which is better on some days than on others. That is all any of us can ultimately do.

Peace, G

[J-Dawg]

I've just gotta do me on my terms to the best of my ability, which is better on some days than on others. That is all any of us can ultimately do.


Well said G. At the end of the day, we can only answer to ourselves--that man in the mirror. Some days will be better than others but the average should always show that we are putting in our highest level of effort possible. What ever it is that we choose to do--bodybuilding, powerlifting, lifting, etc--we should never half-ass it. We must keep our ultimate goals in mind and strive to get there day by day.

[GJN5002]

I'm in love with the oldest bodybuilding "secrets." G-Diesel definitely knows as good as anyone. Many things are battle-tested and will never go away. The basics - heavy training and heavy eating. Yeah, a Keto diet is a terrible idea for someone who's 180 trying to get shredded. To fuel your workouts and build muscle, you need quality foods. And don't get caught up with fucking percentages or calculations. If you eat quality protein like beef, eggs, chicken, fish, pork, milk and other dairy, and supplement with whey protein, uniliver, nitro and other goodies (which aren't completely neccessary), and eat quality carbs like rice, pasta, whole wheat, rye or pumpernickel bread, oatmeal, fruits and vegetables, and quality fats from nuts and oils, and do it consistently, you will build a healthy, muscular physique and fuel yourself up for strong, effective workouts. And don't ever try to rush. Don't avoid going out with your friends in high school because you are "dieting." You can't/won't be the biggest or strongest person ever most likely in your lifetime, and especially not by age 20. Consistency is key. Hundreds of workouts and thousands of meals over possibly DECADES of time will get you where you want to be. Now go ahead animals, and eat a nice and rich meal and get to bed early and rest. Because you will be stronger tomorrow than you are now, and weaker tomorrow than the day after that.

I agree, I love old bodybuilding but I have to disagree that you have to have carbs. Im noy trying to throw gas on the fire here but there are no absolutes in bodybuilding. Girdonda was famous for his low carb approach. He would eat as many as 36 whole eggs a day
a cup of cream with protein powder mixed in, green veggies, some fruit, 1 pound of hamburger a day, raw milk. Quality bodybuilding staples. Now I agree, if you are 160lbs at 5'10, you dont need keto, you need to eat and grow. Also if youre 250 with 30% bf you need to adjust some things. Overall though LKJ, I agree with your message so I dont want you to think Im picking you apart, Im really not. Too many people dont stick to the basics.

[G Diesel]

I agree, I love old bodybuilding but I have to disagree that you have to have carbs. Im noy trying to throw gas on the fire here but there are no absolutes in bodybuilding. Girdonda was famous for his low carb approach. He would eat as many as 36 whole eggs a day
a cup of cream with protein powder mixed in, green veggies, some fruit, 1 pound of hamburger a day, raw milk. Quality bodybuilding staples. Now I agree, if you are 160lbs at 5'10, you dont need keto, you need to eat and grow. Also if youre 250 with 30% bf you need to adjust some things. Overall though LKJ, I agree with your message so I dont want you to think Im picking you apart, Im really not. Too many people dont stick to the basics.

Though I'm a carb guy... I do have a soft spot for the old Gironda and Reeves methods.

Peace, G

[TigerAce01]

Though I'm a carb guy... I do have a soft spot for the old Gironda and Reeves methods.

Peace, G

Now that's old school.

-Ace

[Wasteland]

Though I'm a carb guy... I do have a soft spot for the old Gironda and Reeves methods.

Peace, G

Gironda was a genius. No less true today than yesterday.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Juggs has to shake this up some more. After hearing so much about diet in this thread molding the body, consider this. Let training govern your diet.

I bet a whole box of Pop Tarts on this simple fact... there is a higher percentage of expert hardcore dieters out there than dudes that get down and dirty with training. The point? Example would be my own journey. Always muscular but light about 160 many years ago. Jumped to 180 full steam ahead with no restriction in my diet. Jumped to 207, clearly my highest body fat level.

Now the interesting part. Did I diet because I was out of shape and strong as hell? Nope, I went balls out training, raised the cals even higher. That fat 207 got tighter. 210-215 looking the same as the improved 207. Last phase; the recent ARNOLD, jumped to 225 to compete in the bench. Returned and did not diet.

I have not been on any type of restrictive or modified diet for about (a bad guess) 8 years. The longer you stay big, the easier it is to maintain it. In addition to this, you don't need to restrict anything or go on keto to get lean; it's all about the training, not the diet. The best answer to this is this... I am eating so much that the nutrition level is through the roof and all I have to do is bust my hump in the gym...life is good. Right now I'm 218 (not tight but not fat and very healthy), more muscle than ever before, don't do any cardio, eat like a cow. I know how to diet for shows and could be ready for the stage in 12-16 weeks from today, even Powerlifting only for the last 4 years.

Juggs, "The anti diet."

[G Diesel]

The longer you stay big, the easier it is to maintain it.

Fact.

Peace, G

[J-Dawg]

Juggs has to shake this up some more. After hearing so much about diet in this thread molding the body, consider this. Let training govern your diet.

I bet a whole box of Pop Tarts on this simple fact... there is a higher percentage of expert hardcore dieters out there than dudes that get down and dirty with training. The point? Example would be my own journey. Always muscular but light about 160 many years ago. Jumped to 180 full steam ahead with no restriction in my diet. Jumped to 207, clearly my highest body fat level.

Now the interesting part. Did I diet because I was out of shape and strong as hell? Nope, I went balls out training, raised the cals even higher. That fat 207 got tighter. 210-215 looking the same as the improved 207. Last phase; the recent ARNOLD, jumped to 225 to compete in the bench. Returned and did not diet.

I have not been on any type of restrictive or modified diet for about (a bad guess) 8 years. The longer you stay big, the easier it is to maintain it. In addition to this, you don't need to restrict anything or go on keto to get lean; it's all about the training, not the diet. The best answer to this is this... I am eating so much that the nutrition level is through the roof and all I have to do is bust my hump in the gym...life is good. Right now I'm 218 (not tight but not fat and very healthy), more muscle than ever before, don't do any cardio, eat like a cow. I know how to diet for shows and could be ready for the stage in 12-16 weeks from today, even Powerlifting only for the last 4 years.

Juggs, "The anti diet."

Haha, I like the Juggs anti-diet. But you're exactly right. Hardgainers that want to be more muscular (myself included) need to only worry about training as hard as possible not keto dieting or other meticulous diets. You just need to eat big to get big. You can always clean up the diet later.

[McFly]

The longer you stay big, the easier it is to maintain it.

I could not agree more!!!

[C.Coronato]

Great post, and well said. Young bucks need to take heed and learn a few things.

[andrewT]

Great post, and well said. Young bucks need to take heed and learn a few things.

damn right we do!

we should all always be listening and learning from those around us, young and old. I love seeing vets like G and others listen to us youngbloods talk and take something from it. We can all always learn at least one thing from eachother

great thread!

buon appetite

[LegendKillerJosh]

damn right we do!

we should all always be listening and learning from those around us, young and old. I love seeing vets like G and others listen to us youngbloods talk and take something from it. We can all always learn at least one thing from eachother

great thread!

buon appetite

Hell yeah, sometimes I feel like the "advances" in nutrition made lately are BULLSHIT. Especially the ones talking about how to be "healthier" and not the ones that have anything to do with bodybuilding. Steak and potatoes always has worked and always will work. Same with chicken and rice, or beef and pasta. These meals will always pack on size. They worked for Arnold, they still work for Cutler. If some scientist decides that eating 4.3oz of plum skins per day could reduce the risk of prostate enlargement, that's great. But I'm looking to build muscle, that's all I care about.

[Ironjaw]

lol but wat if u have a large prostate???? lmoa... but i agree lateey every fad about fruit has come to rise and the masses eat up all the bullshit like its candy

[G Diesel]

I like fruits and vegetables, but then again so did people a hundred centuries ago. Not exactly fad... Getting big has always been top priority for me, but if it comes at the expense of being healthy, in my opinion it isn't worth it and if your health is compromised, no size or strength will endure or last. Fuck that, I want to be jacked when I'm 60.

Peace, G

[TigerAce01]

I like fruits and vegetables, but then again so did people a hundred centuries ago. Not exactly fad... Getting big has always been top priority for me, but if it comes at the expense of being healthy, in my opinion it isn't worth it and if your health is compromised, no size or strength will endure or last. Fuck that, I want to be jacked when I'm 60.

Peace, G

This was the main point of my new Journey, and especially one of my last posts. I was referring to Machine's condition, and how we should all be much more wary of our health an longevity. We all like to gain muscle and be huge, and even more so, do it quickly...but at what cost? I don't know the full causes of Machine's cardiac problems, but from other cases I have seen, I have a good idea. Machine is a great guy, and he has been one of the faces of Animal, and I think he needs to be the face of change. We have a very skewed view of nutrition as bodybuilders that is finally starting to change, albeit slowly.

We need to stop, sit back, analyze what we are doing, and plan ahead for the future. We have one body...let's make he most of it.

-Ace

[GJN5002]

great posts by G Diesel and TigerAce. For most people they take their health for granted until somethign goes wrong. LegendKillerJosh, you dont care about your prostate until you cant piss or get an erection, then who gives a shit how strong you are.

TigerAce, Ive come to the same conclusions. I used to eat like shit al in the name of mass and strenght and want to fix my ways before it has a lasting effect.

[Reacher34]

Just to chime in....
I like to think that as a bodybuilder, I'm constantly evolving. Lately (past 1-2 months) I've added 2 cups of spinach twice a day. Also, in my morning ezekiel cereal I add blueberries. Two simple changes and I feel so much better. Perhaps there is something to this whole antioxidant thing. Also, my gut never felt so good after a day full of eating spinach.

Additionally, I've cut out so much fat. Now my only fats come from egglands best, natural peanut butter, and the little fat left after I cook my 93/7 beef.

What is the result of all this? I feel grrrrrrrrreat! What happens when my stomach feels great?...I can eat even more quality food. What happens when I eat more quality food?... I add lean mass and start looking more and more like "I stepped off the mothership."

Bottom line is health and progress in your physique go hand in hand. No, you can't follow a pro's diet exactly, because they aren't you. BUT you can emulate the principles they use and benefit from them.

**side note... Machine has always been a face of change and evolution. But we'd be insulting him if we didn't learn from him now. Our everlasting quest for strength and mass doesn't need to be compromised, but we need to find the right balance so that mass can last.

[MedicJBoy]

how I see it everyone who posts advice posts it based on their personal experience and knowledge. The longer you are around the more you learn, and that is learning good and bad. They are not bashing diets they are simply letting people who do not have the same level of experience know what they have learned, it is their personal opinion. If you do not agree with something that is said then post your opinion, and if you are just going to be getting mad and disrespecting someone else close that thread and move to one you like. I appreciate alot of the advice that I get from the animal crew.

[charlievanriper]

First IMHO G is right on the button on this. A beginning lifter no matter thier age has no business being concerned with high tech dieting, listen up you need to create a solid base of muscle before you start playing around with cutting up. These guys on thye top are on top for a reason ( only 4% of lifters will ever get to the top, and I think alot of that is because only a few are not followers) they dont go all nuts over every new technique they understand the concept of hard work. Thier is no way no how without drugs you are getting to the top in less than 5 yrs and thats a conservative number. Okay so your 5'8 190 with 22% bodyfat and you want to be 10% dieting at this point will get you 175 at 10%, wouldnt you rather lift heavy and hard get in your cardio sessions and grow. Understand your building up your metabolism and burning off excess fat to fuel that muscle growth so in another year lets say your down to 10% at 190 and now you look hard. Wouldf that not be worth the wait, nothing cmes quick people.

Well thats my 50 cents.

Thx G for another great post of common sense.