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Aggression
01-07-09, 2:49 pm
I like to roam the forums and give my opinions on various matters. I'm not an expert on anything, but I feel everyone has the right to give their opinion on something if they have some experience/knowledge. I've noticed a lot of threads on various forums dealing with the taste issues of certain products, mainly the ones dealing with pre/intra/post workout supplementation.

In my mind, if a product works, I'm going to use it, no matter what. Over the years, I've choked down some nasty stuff because it worked, plain and simple. Years ago, products didn't have an abundance of flavors to choose from. And even when there was a selection, it was rare that they actually had a satisfactory taste.

I cannot say enough about some of the products that I've recently added to my supplement repertoire. Two supplements that I've recently added to my stash are Intra-Aid and Torrent. I can honestly say that Intra-Aid is the best tasting drink I've ever used. During a workout, I can't be bothered by thick mixes that sit in my stomach as I'm trying bury a heavy set of leg presses. Intra-Aid is like drinking Blue Raspberry Kool-Aid that has been spiked with aminos. To be able to get the aminos in while enjoying the flavor is priceless.

As for Torrent, the same deal applies. Green Apple Avalanche is full of flavor. To be getting the simple carbs and protein in while enjoying the taste is the reason why Torrent is and will remain to be my only PWO supplement.

Why are some people trying to gag down their intra/post workout supplements when such great tasting products exist?

Thoughts?

Mr. Dead
01-07-09, 2:59 pm
Well, so and so takes this (Insert various endorsers names...) and made killer gains, so if I take his product, I'll be just like him...

That seems to be a very prevalent mentality...

naturalguy
01-07-09, 3:00 pm
What I don't understand is I've seen some companies rush products to market only to have to go back and reformulate them because they taste bad. I've seen some companies come out with 3 versions of the same product, it's like they don't taste test their products.

I am glad that Universal takes it's time and alpha and beta test their formulas. More than once I have started some beta testing threads and after gathering consumer feedback we went back and tweaked the flavoring to get it right.

simpleguy
01-07-09, 3:00 pm
I don't know either... but hey, all you need is the pak and some whey lol

naturalguy
01-07-09, 3:22 pm
Another pet peeve, a lot of people get hung up on the numbers and people always think more is better when that is not always the case. I've run across some threads specifically about Intra-Aid where some people will come in (mostly competitors) and claim that their product has the highest percentage of hydrolyzed whey. First off they assume that Intra-Aid has less than that. Secondly they claim more is better. As far as I know there are no studies that show any certain percentage is ideal intra-workout. Also if more is better then why don't they use 40%, 50% or even 100%??????

The best way to know is to try a supplement, give it a good run for a month or two and see if you get any results.

Mr. Dead
01-07-09, 3:25 pm
Another pet peeve, a lot of people get hung up on the numbers and people always think more is better when that is not always the case. I've run across some threads specifically about Intra-Aid where some people will come in (mostly competitors) and claim that their product has the highest percentage of hydrolyzed whey. First off they assume that Intra-Aid has less than that. Secondly they claim more is better. As far as I know there are no studies that show any certain percentage is ideal intra-workout. Also if more is better then why don't they use 40%, 50% or even 100%??????

The best way to know is to try a supplement, give it a good run for a month or two and see if you get any results.

Exactly... That, and they read one "study" that says this, that, or the other, and take that one study tobe the absolute be all and end all... Nevermind that there are 15 different "studies" that say otherwise...

Aggression
01-07-09, 3:27 pm
Another pet peeve, a lot of people get hung up on the numbers and people always think more is better when that is not always the case. I've run across some threads specifically about Intra-Aid where some people will come in (mostly competitors) and claim that their product has the highest percentage of hydrolyzed whey. First off they assume that Intra-Aid has less than that. Secondly they claim more is better. As far as I know there are no studies that show any certain percentage is ideal intra-workout. Also if more is better then why don't they use 40%, 50% or even 100%??????

The best way to know is to try a supplement, give it a good run for a month or two and see if you get any results.

I agree 100%. I've been through many supplements. Some had good results, while others didn't do much for me. Everyone is different. But you won't know unless you try it. That's another reason why I'm such a big Universal fan; they also beta test their products first. I think this is the key to producing such great supplements. I've never had a problem with the flavors at Universal, and its only getting better from here

Giant Killer
01-07-09, 3:35 pm
At the end of the day I've tried lots of products but most pale in comparison to the quality, price, and flavor of Universal supplements. There are a slim few exceptions and I reward those companies with my business also.

Another thing is perserverance and consistency. Anything I use must be proven in the trenches. I wouldn't do a workout program for 1 week expecting amazing results and I wouldn't expect the same from a supplement. So help me if I see another "I've been using 'Supplement X' for 8 days and I'm not hyooge what's happening here???"... Giving a supp it's due day in court coupled with an airtight nutrition and training program, and evaluating the results can make a huge difference.

RESULTS are what matters. And Universal has never failed to deliver.

Mr. Dead
01-07-09, 3:40 pm
I remember back in the late '80s and early '90s, that sometimes you really didn't have a choice... Most of the stuff tasted like crap, so it had better work!!! Some things were only available in certain areas... Taste was merely a dream, results only mattered... Even when a particular company came out with some chewable tab versions of their powders... It was like eating chalk...

GJN5002
01-07-09, 4:18 pm
Bad taste means it works really well. Haha, I wish, Ive had some bad stuff. Most of UNI's stuff is decent tasting, but beyond that 90% of the stuff Ive used has been effective. Most importantly, its safe. I see a lot of things being posted about tainted supps and bad sides, I know I dont have to worry about those.

TigerAce01
01-07-09, 4:26 pm
Bad taste means it works really well. Haha, I wish, Ive had some bad stuff. Most of UNI's stuff is decent tasting, but beyond that 90% of the stuff Ive used has been effective. Most importantly, its safe. I see a lot of things being posted about tainted supps and bad sides, I know I dont have to worry about those.

I agree 100% about the safety of UN's supps. A lot of the "fad following" companies are using formulas that, when looked at in a nutritional and chemical stance, are more than just unhealthy, they are downright dangerous if taken in higher doses. You'll see UN include antioxidant blends, liver detoxifiers, and cleansers in any of their products that have an even small chance of being toxic.

simpleguy
01-08-09, 1:00 pm
I never, ever gave a shit about how supps taste... after you try bulk bcaas in water, every other supp tastes at least decent haha

Aggression
01-08-09, 1:22 pm
I never, ever gave a shit about how supps taste... after you try bulk bcaas in water, every other supp tastes at least decent haha

Agreed 100%. I've downed some nasty shit in the past. But if I found out it produced positive results, then I kept choking that bitch down. It may only taste bad for a few minutes, but the effects last a helluva lot longer than that. At least that's how I look at it.

Aggression
01-08-09, 2:21 pm
I've used some supplements over the years that have a consistency similar to that of trying to drink sand. Some products were even thrown into a blender (a high powered mother fucker) only to find clumps and grit in the liquid as I went to drink it. Its not a normal scene when you have to pick shit out of your teeth while finishing up a weight gainer, pre workout, post workout, etc.

I'm glad I've found Universal. Every one of their products that I've tried, and believe me, its been a shit ton, has mixed up perfectly whether in a blender, shaker cup, or even when using a spoon. Real Gains mixes up perfectly. Other weight gainers in the past left me feeling like I was drinking sludge, leaving me bloated for 8 hours. RG is the Real Deal. Torrent is another product that mixes up very well. With my shaker cup only going up to 20oz, I fill it up and level is off with 3 scoops of Torrent. At this point, the cap is just fitting on the bottle. Sure enough, with a few seconds of shaking, I take a sip and its smooth as hell.

Universal does a great job with their products. I've never had to floss out some leftover remnants when using Universal.

Wasteland
01-08-09, 2:22 pm
There are some products that many people don't seem to like for whatever reason. If some people use it with success, the critics say it's a "placebo" effect. But when others use that same product and say they didn't get any results, those same critics say, "I told you so". You can't win.

Wasteland
01-08-09, 2:31 pm
On the subject of supplements, I think bodybuidling forums can largely be divided into two camps. Theorists and realists. The theorists have access to pubmed and post links to abstracts and have long discussions trying to either prove/disprove a supplement's worth based on an abstract or two. "Science" is exchanged like currency. On the other side, there are the realists. They tend to use a supplement and if they like it, they'll stick with it. Often, these two camps battle it out. The theorists accuse the realists of being mindless and ignorant. The realists accuse the theorists of overthinking everything and not focusing on training and nutrition enough.

The theorists will tell you they don't have to try a supplement to know if it will work or not. Science provides all the answers they need. The realists will tell you that you can't know if something works unless you actually use it in your training.

What is the value of science when it comes to supplements? What is the importance of personal experience when having used a supplement?

Aggression
01-08-09, 2:31 pm
There are some products that many people don't seem to like for whatever reason. If some people use it with success, the critics say it's a "placebo" effect. But when others use that same product and say they didn't get any results, those same critics say, "I told you so". You can't win.

I'm all for the placebo effect in the beginning. I don't take many supplements outside of the basics. But I just started dabbling into the hardcore paks. I finished up M-stak a week ago and gained 8lbs. Placebo effect? I'll say no. Within a few days I thought it was making my appetite increase, so I ate more and thus gained. Whether that was a placebo or not, it worked. I'm now on day 4 of Stak. On my second day, I felt like an Animal in the gym. Placebo? Who the fuck cares, I was rack deadlifting 495lbs.

I believe placebo effects are evident in the beginning of taking something (like the first few days on something like M-stak). But when it gets closer to a weeks time, the real effects start to take over and bring you to another level.

I'm a big believer in that I think you'll have much success with a product if you have your diet and training on point. If your body is always primed for growth, and you feed it that extra supplement to help forge new growth, your body is going to respond a helluva lot better than if your main diet consists of pizza and ice cream.

That is what I believe separates the believers and doubters of a product. If someone has something negative to say about M-stak, I'll respond with: "I took M-stak for 3 weeks and ate 5k+ calories of clean food/day. What did your diet look like"
-chances are, its nothing close to that, thus the lack of/negative results.

Wasteland
01-08-09, 2:36 pm
I believe placebo effects are evident in the beginning of taking something (like the first few days on something like M-stak).

I wasn't debating the existence of the placebo effect. If memory serves, there's a big discussion here on the Forvm already. I was just talkiing about the use of the placebo as an argument for proving why certain supplements don't work.

Aggression
01-08-09, 2:41 pm
On the subject of supplements, I think bodybuidling forums can largely be divided into two camps. Theorists and realists. The theorists have access to pubmed and post links to abstracts and have long discussions trying to either prove/disprove a supplement's worth. Abstracts are shared and exchanged like common currency. On the other side, there are the realists. They tend to use a supplement and if they like it, they'll stick with it. Often, these two camps battle it out. The theorists accuse the realists of being mindless and ignorant. The realists accuse the theorists of overthinking everything and not focusing on training and nutrition enough.

Bodybuilding forums definitely have battles of theorists v realists. Personally, I'm a realist, both because I don't know much about scientific studies and because I'd rather see real world results with a product rather than a published piece of paper saying it's 'doesn't work because ..'

Take whole eggs for example. It's not a 'supplement', but it relates. In the 60's-70's, everyone ate whole eggs. No one knew what an egg-white was. Then all of a sudden, this egg-white craze came about and scientists and doctors were putting out articles saying that eating more than a few whole eggs per day can seriously put you at risk. Restaurants starting making egg-white omelets, companies started putting out containers of egg whites next to the whole eggs at foods stores, etc.

I remember looking at a MD magazine about a year ago, and an article in the health section mentioned something along the lines of ''whole eggs may not be the culprit''. The article went on to say how the yolk in the egg is good for you and does not necessarily increase cholesterol and yadda yadda yadda. I know its a little off the track of supplements, but its the first related thing that came to mind. I'm sure supplements and their ingredients have gone through the same thing.

I don't pay much attention to scientific studies. Just like I don't pay much attention to people that tell me 50g protein is the total limit/day for the body.

Aggression
01-08-09, 2:43 pm
I wasn't debating the existence of the placebo effect. If memory serves, there's a big discussion here on the Forvm already. I was just talkiing about the use of the placebo as an argument for proving why certain supplements don't work.

O bro I wasn't trying to spark and argument/debate. I just read your post and went off of it into my own thoughts. After reading it, I just had a bunch of thoughts run through my head. Good post. I also like the second one, theorists/realists.

Wasteland
01-08-09, 2:47 pm
Another pet peeve, a lot of people get hung up on the numbers and people always think more is better when that is not always the case.

I know what you mean. In theory, the best of anything is, well, the best. But in practice, you don't need the best of everything. For example, if you drive an old, beat up VW Bug from the 70s, you probably don't need to fill it up with expensive 93 octane gasoline. Same applies to things like whey protein isolate vs. whey protein concentrate, this form of a certain vitamin over another form, etc.

Don't get me wrong. For those who want the absolute best, we live in a capitalist society, so we have choices. If you can afford it, who's to say you shouldn't spend your money the way you see fit? Does this mean you'll actually derive anything significant from that "best"? If I spend two bucks and get bottled water, is that better than what comes out of my tap? Ultimately, our choices have more to do with ideas, not practical matters.

Wasteland
01-08-09, 2:47 pm
O bro I wasn't trying to spark and argument/debate. I just read your post and went off of it into my own thoughts. After reading it, I just had a bunch of thoughts run through my head. Good post. I also like the second one, theorists/realists.

No argument here Aggression, just clarification.

Cellerator65
01-08-09, 3:31 pm
1 thing I like about animal pak, which i think alot of other people do too... is the fact that its an insurance policy. They have alot of vitamins in it... which if you dont need, you excrete. But, if you do, you're covered on all basises.

I rather have more then enough, then less than enough.

Aggression
01-08-09, 3:38 pm
1 thing I like about animal pak, which i think alot of other people do too... is the fact that its an insurance policy. They have alot of vitamins in it... which if you dont need, you excrete. But, if you do, you're covered on all basises.

I rather have more then enough, then less than enough.

Agreed

Hoomgar
01-08-09, 3:41 pm
I like to roam the forums and give my opinions on various matters.

Hey no one asked for your opinion...



But we are glad you shared it bro :)

LOL!

I am in 100% agreement with you on this. I've tried some of the stuff that gets good reviews on other forums out there in the past and some of it was so bad tasting it almost made me sick. And I'm like you when it comes to this, I need it to work primarily and the taste is an after thought to me.

One of the big names out there beside Universal products that I've seen people rant and rave about how they like it I just don't understand. Ask NG what I said about it LOL! Tastes like you are drinking swill from a used garbage can with a little fruit flavoring in it. Seriously!

After experiences like this the flavors of the products in the AWO stack are such a pleasure to drink.

We asked Universal for products that worked. I don't recall anyone asking them to make them taste so great but they did that for us anyway.

It's just like home made mashed potatoes and gravy. You better get your own because this one is mine!

Hg

G Diesel
01-08-09, 4:29 pm
Universal products have always worked and worked well...

It seems in recent years The U has raised the bar even higher, not only delivering products that are ahead of the game, but putting a priority on making them taste so good that you actually look forward to using them, as I do, which is fucking priceless.

What happens is that once that high standard of excellence is set, you have to live up to it, and anything short of that is a letdown. The U knows this and they're holding themselves to that higher standard and we reap the benefits.

Peace, G

Mr. Dead
01-08-09, 4:44 pm
Universal products have always worked and worked well...

It seems in recent years The U has raised the bar even higher, not only delivering products that are ahead of the game, but putting a priority on making them taste so good that you actually look forward to using them, as I do, which is fucking priceless.

What happens is that once that high standard of excellence is set, you have to live up to it, and anything short of that is a letdown. The U knows this and they're holding themselves to that higher standard and we reap the benefits.

Peace, G

I think this would explain my Torrent and Ultra Iso Whey and EAA Stack addiction... *L*

PJC
01-08-09, 5:16 pm
Universal products have always worked and worked well...

It seems in recent years The U has raised the bar even higher, not only delivering products that are ahead of the game, but putting a priority on making them taste so good that you actually look forward to using them, as I do, which is fucking priceless.

What happens is that once that high standard of excellence is set, you have to live up to it, and anything short of that is a letdown. The U knows this and they're holding themselves to that higher standard and we reap the benefits.

Peace, G

I don't care what they taste like I buy UN/Animal products because they work, not the same degree for all, but they work.

The only thing that should matter is whether it works for YOU. Just because it works for one animal doesn't mean it will work for all. No one size fits all.

How do you know if it works for YOU? By paying your dues in the iron, real food and supplementation for an extended period of time, 12 weeks not 12secs. So what if YOU think it tastes like crap, pucker up and deal with it. If in the end it didn't work for YOU, then at least YOU know and move on. But if it worked as advertised, despite tasting like crap, YOU will go back and get more.

While it's an afterthought, I am thankful UN/Animal have vested time and effort into taste.

prowrestler
01-08-09, 5:20 pm
....i use whey.....

Dingo
01-08-09, 5:41 pm
I remember back in the late '80s and early '90s, that sometimes you really didn't have a choice... Most of the stuff tasted like crap, so it had better work!!! Some things were only available in certain areas... Taste was merely a dream, results only mattered... Even when a particular company came out with some chewable tab versions of their powders... It was like eating chalk...

haha i remeber trying some "chewable" orange flavored creatine mono tabs...... had to down about a gallon of water with each one.