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Kludwig64
01-18-09, 12:45 pm
does soy protein really raise estrogen levels in males? i also heard the same thing about flax seed oil that contain lignans.

TheBassGuy
01-18-09, 12:51 pm
I don't think it does. I switch it up with soy protein every so often.

Although if someone could show us some research that suggests that it does, I'd give it a read. Pretty interested to see what people think about this.

rhane
01-19-09, 10:03 am
It's really doubtful, and here is why. Most master hormones in males are derivatives of DHEA and some others. So in theory Soy is supposed to break down and provide enzymes to increase the conversion of DHEA to estrogen? No chance. Besides, you would probably have to drink an unconsumable amount of soy to get the reported estrogenic gains anyway. Probably one of those cases of "everything is fine in moderation."

theharjmann
01-19-09, 10:47 am
It's really doubtful, and here is why. Most master hormones in males are derivatives of DHEA and some others. So in theory Soy is supposed to break down and provide enzymes to increase the conversion of DHEA to estrogen? No chance. Besides, you would probably have to drink an unconsumable amount of soy to get the reported estrogenic gains anyway. Probably one of those cases of "everything is fine in moderation."

I know i dont believe the whole estrogenic thing either.....but im still gonna stick to Whey just to be on the safe side.....i dont want boobs LOL!

C.Coronato
01-19-09, 12:49 pm
You would be fine with soy as well as flax seed oil. Flax is actually a very good cut agent and i use it to diet down for my shows.

D-Kev
04-13-11, 5:29 pm
Hi,

I am currently using a mass gaining shake, it contains soy protein as well as whey protein...
I know soy gets a bad rap and I've heard of some negatives from it, just wondering if it really raises estrogen etc...
If you have any experience with it let me know. PM me and I can tell you which mrp it is.

Thanks

charlievanriper
04-13-11, 5:30 pm
Enjoy, your future Gyno!!!!!!!!!

Bruiser
04-13-11, 5:47 pm
Enjoy, your future Gyno!!!!!!!!!

X2

NJC_Manhattan
04-13-11, 8:04 pm
In a word....


NO!

D-Kev
04-15-11, 1:00 am
Well, that's what receipts are for...
Vitamin Shoppes' got another thing comin'...lol

its Lbc
04-18-11, 1:11 am
no bs....Stay away from it.....Use your regular Whey and Casein. you will see much greater gains. make sure you keep up with your whole proteins in your meals also.

Mr.X
04-19-11, 4:12 am
soy=increase in estrogen=bitch tits+fat

soy DOES help to slow down the whey being broken down so that is why it is in your shake

C.Coronato
04-21-11, 1:08 pm
I disagree with staying away from Soy. It is not my first choice, but if you enjoy it, then go for it.

I have used, and still use a blend of proteins. I also am a big fan of Edamame (soy beans) and all through college i only drank soy milk because it was cheaper to buy in bulk since it doesn't have to be refrigerated until it is open. Im talking gallons and gallons of the stuff through the years.

Unless you see it happening to yourself, dont believe all the hype brother.

Aggression
04-21-11, 1:22 pm
I'm glad someone has some sense in this thread, thanks C.Coronato.

People need to get their heads outta their asses. They see one 'study', and I put that word in parenthesis on purpose, and then start buggin' out.

OH NO! SOY PROTEIN IS GOING TO GIVE ME BITCH TITS.

Give me a break.

D-Kev
04-22-11, 1:52 am
Thanks all for the replies.
I appreciate the positive ones from CC and Agression too.

It's interesting soy gets a bad rap because the shake I had bought, is very reputable,
lotta lifters and pro's too swear by it. I had written to the company and got a very good reply,
obviously in favor of their product, but still, persuasive points none the less...

its Lbc
04-22-11, 2:01 am
Thanks all for the replies.
I appreciate the positive ones from CC and Agression too.

It's interesting soy gets a bad rap because the shake I had bought, is very reputable,
lotta lifters and pro's too swear by it. I had written to the company and got a very good reply,
obviously in favor of their product, but still, persuasive points none the less...

Ive never had a Over bearing bad experience with Soy Protein. Just personal preference and what I Have gotten from the different proteins. Ive gotten Best overall Gains From Whey and Caseins.

Aggression
04-22-11, 8:09 am
Ive never had a Over bearing bad experience with Soy Protein. Just personal preference and what I Have gotten from the different proteins. Ive gotten Best overall Gains From Whey and Caseins.

I won't argue that. I personally feel that WHEY and CASEIN are superior to SOY, but that doesn't dismiss SOY as valuable, nor does it mean SOY will give you gyno.

Bruiser
04-22-11, 8:20 am
I won't argue that. I personally feel that WHEY and CASEIN are superior to SOY, but that doesn't dismiss SOY as valuable, nor does it mean SOY will give you gyno.

I guess my bias comes from a few things. I only know of a handful of guys that have used soy, and almost all got gyno. I've not used it because soy tears up my stomach and makes it really hard to live with me... even more than usual (Uni-Liver makes me stink). But also, I have a good friend who is vegan and eats tons of soy, and so does his fiance who it causes sever stomach problems and has landed her in the hospital many times. I've seen too many studies proving the connection between soy and breast cancer in women (men forget they can get it too!!!) to want to put any of it my body. Whatever the connection to elavated estrogen, stomach problems and breast cancer... it's enough to scare me off.

Bruiser
04-22-11, 8:21 am
Thanks all for the replies.
I appreciate the positive ones from CC and Agression too.

It's interesting soy gets a bad rap because the shake I had bought, is very reputable,
lotta lifters and pro's too swear by it. I had written to the company and got a very good reply,
obviously in favor of their product, but still, persuasive points none the less...

Just because a product is popular and a brand is reputable, doesn't mean it's safe... have you ever heard of these things called cigarettes?

MRmichael.hooker
04-22-11, 8:31 am
Just because a product is popular and a brand is reputable, doesn't mean it's safe... have you ever heard of these things called cigarettes?

BAM!

PORTERHOUSE
04-22-11, 8:40 am
Im pretty sure I know what gainer you're talking about. I switched to real gains, but I used "it" for 2 years or so and I still don't have boobs.

B.S.
04-22-11, 9:31 am
i was vegan for 4 years, all i ate was soy or forms of it as protein, no tits. enjoy your shake.

J-Dawg
04-22-11, 11:14 am
Hi,

I am currently using a mass gaining shake, it contains soy protein as well as whey protein...
I know soy gets a bad rap and I've heard of some negatives from it, just wondering if it really raises estrogen etc...
If you have any experience with it let me know. PM me and I can tell you which mrp it is.

Thanks

In moderation, I don't see an issue with a healthy individual using something that has some soy protein in it (unless you have thyroid issues or a soy allergy). There can be potential issues with high soy intake but in moderation, I don't see an issue. More detailed studies need to be performed IMHO.

ionicrod
04-22-11, 11:35 am
I tried it for a little while, but I personally did not like the taste. I just quit using it because of that....man it was nastey.

Pizzalamp
05-01-11, 12:54 pm
soy has compounds in it that prevents the absorbition of protein in the body and causes the thyroid to slow down.

Carrnage
05-01-11, 6:33 pm
Oh the drama.

Sprint
05-01-11, 6:38 pm
I was hitting down soy protein shakes back in the day when I first started, because I didn't know anything about anything. For probably 3 or 4 months, maybe 6-7 shakes a week. No gyno, no nothing. Now I was very much a beginner, but no problems & made progress.

From my own personal experience, I'd second what's been said so far. Soy is inferior to whey, but it's good to be aiming for a full protein balance. Let's be honest, there's very few things these days that havn't been linked to cancer, particularly if it's consumed to excess.

What I would say, is that just as with whey, your main protein/calories should be coming from whole foods anyway. Shakes, be them protein, mass gainers etc should still be kept to a minimum.

spartan300
05-02-11, 6:17 am
If you are interested in putting on some serious muscle or not. Usually you can't go wrong with a milk and egg protein some may disagree but I stand by it.

Bob
05-02-11, 9:59 am
soy has compounds in it that prevents the absorbition of protein in the body and causes the thyroid to slow down.

i wonder how much of these compounds are taken out when soy is made into an isolate or concentrate. anyone have an idea?

Bob
05-02-11, 10:00 am
If you are interested in putting on some serious muscle or not. Usually you can't go wrong with a milk and egg protein some may disagree but I stand by it.

do you put on less muscle if you combine soy with whey vs milk and egg along with your regular diet?

Beowulf
05-02-11, 10:10 am
The misinformation is strong in this thread.

spartan300
05-02-11, 4:49 pm
Bob,
it's your choice my friend.

Beowulf
05-03-11, 8:23 am
Bob,
it's your choice my friend.

P.E.R.? That's so early twentieth century. P.E.R. was established in 1919 and was the accepted methodology by the FDA. It was based on the AA requirements of rats and not humans. Today, it's outdated and obsolete and has been for close to two decades. You do realize that there is a better and more accurate methodology, right? One that is now used by the FDA, FAO/WHO, among others? And if you were to rate soy and whey using the newer accepted methodology, both would score 1.0 (the highest possible score). But you know that, right?

Please, to have a good discussion, let's start with good, accurate information.

Big D
05-03-11, 9:30 am
I'm glad someone has some sense in this thread, thanks C.Coronato.

People need to get their heads outta their asses. They see one 'study', and I put that word in parenthesis on purpose, and then start buggin' out.

OH NO! SOY PROTEIN IS GOING TO GIVE ME BITCH TITS.

Give me a break.


youre gunna get bitch tits from drinking soy if you drink it and sit on your fat ass and dont train.

Beowulf
05-03-11, 9:49 am
youre gunna get bitch tits from drinking soy if you drink it and sit on your fat ass and dont train.

Has this happened to you? If not, can you actually support this with credible research/evidence and not just parrot what someone told you? Or are you just joking? Inquiring minds want to know.

C.Coronato
05-03-11, 10:26 am
The misinformation is strong in this thread.

Agreed. I would like to see the study where too much Soy is linked directly to gyno.

Im pretty sure I should have it by now, if that were the case, as would B.S.

You have no idea what those other people were taking or why that Gyno was caused.

Big D
05-03-11, 10:27 am
Has this happened to you? If not, can you actually support this with credible research/evidence and not just parrot what someone told you? Or are you just joking? Inquiring minds want to know.

naa no bitch tits here... but if you drink/eat too much of anything youre gunna get fat and eventually get bitch tits..... so i was have joking and half serious.

but before you start getting all serious over there whereever you are, behind whatever computer screen you troll from... i dont parrot anything. remmeber that.

but if you would like some credible research, drink a gallon of soy milk a day, and sit your ass on your couch. in 6 months tell me how ya look chief... theres ya research.

spartan300
05-03-11, 11:03 am
I can understand the rationale behind it.

Beowulf
05-03-11, 11:03 am
naa no bitch tits here... but if you drink/eat too much of anything youre gunna get fat and eventually get bitch tits..... so i was have joking and half serious.

but before you start getting all serious over there whereever you are, behind whatever computer screen you troll from... i dont parrot anything. remmeber that.

but if you would like some credible research, drink a gallon of soy milk a day, and sit your ass on your couch. in 6 months tell me how ya look chief... theres ya research.

I LOLd. Troll? No. Gadfly? Certainly. Thank you for your sage words.

Beowulf
05-03-11, 11:06 am
I can understand the rationale behind it.

Some research indicates that compounds in soy can reduce DHT and actually increase testosterone. Did you know that? Do you know how some believe the mechanism works?

Beowulf
05-03-11, 11:16 am
Agreed. I would like to see the study where too much Soy is linked directly to gyno.

Im pretty sure I should have it by now, if that were the case, as would B.S.

You have no idea what those other people were taking or why that Gyno was caused.

The idea that drinking a soy protein shake will lead to gynecomastia is a tall tale, an urban legend. Yet the myth remains to this day.

spartan300
05-03-11, 11:29 am
It's an inferior protein source!

Beowulf
05-03-11, 11:37 am
It's an inferior protein source!

Why is this? On what basis exactly? You have yet to address any of my posts thus far.

Sprint
05-03-11, 11:54 am
Seems to me that some folk are playing devil's advocate & disagreeing/ starting arguments for the hell of it. What began as a thread with an honest question in search of knowledge/answers is starting to descend into BS.

spartan300
05-03-11, 12:13 pm
why is this? On what basis exactly? You have yet to address any of my posts thus far.

based on the p.e.r. If you choose, you should conduct your own research like i did over 30 years ago.

Beowulf
05-03-11, 12:17 pm
based on the p.e.r. If you choose, you should conduct your own research like i did over 30 years ago.

LOL. P.E.R., like I said, is outdated and obsolete. Thirty years ago it might have been valid, but not today. Nobody uses that anymore (along with B.V.). It relied on rats. There are a number of other weaknesses with the methodology. PDCAAS is superior and is the accepted standard today (though it has limitations as well). I'm trying to get beyond personal anecdotes. Besides, the soy proteins of yesterday are nothing like the soy proteins of today. Technology has advanced since the 1980s. I can post links to actual studies/research if you like comparing whey with soy. I think the results would surprise you.

If anyone wants to have a good discussion, I started this thread over here: http://www.universalusa.com/Community/Forum/Eat/Soy-vs.-Whey#post_74809

spartan300
05-03-11, 12:30 pm
LOL. P.E.R., like I said, is outdated and obsolete. Nobody uses that anymore (along with B.V.). It relied on rats. There are a number of other weaknesses with the methodology. I'm trying to get beyond personal anecdotes. Besides, the soy proteins of yesterday are nothing like the soy proteins of today. Technology has advanced since the 1980s. I can post studies/research if you like comparing whey with soy.

You can read all the research you want my friend but until you have experienced the effects of actually doing a study you are merely relying on someone else to tell you what works for you. I competed in over 70 shows and managed to place in 63 of them. Of the 7 I failed to place in I was using a soy based protein supplement coincidence? I don't think so.

Beowulf
05-03-11, 12:36 pm
You can read all the research you want my friend but until you have experienced the effects of actually doing a study you are merely relying on someone else to tell you what works for you. I competed in over 70 shows and managed to place in 63 of them. Of the 7 I failed to place in I was using a soy based protein supplement coincidence? I don't think so.

You win. Nothing will change your mind.

spartan300
05-03-11, 12:47 pm
Back when I started doing this in the early 70's I did not have the luxury of having my choice of protein supplements.Trial and error was my only means to determine what was good and what was ineffective. I don't mean to offend if I did I apologize.

rev8ball
05-03-11, 2:56 pm
does soy protein really raise estrogen levels in males? i also heard the same thing about flax seed oil that contain lignans.


Multiple studies have shown that muscle protein synthesis is significantly greater with milk-based proteins vs. soy-based proteins, even though there is not much difference in absorbability. Also, though it is the closest plant-based protein, soy is not a complete protein ((i.e., it’s missing methionine).

On other health issues:
1. Soy has shown to decline endothelial function and increase lipids
2. Test levels and soy intake have been shown to be inversely related in several studies; however, one study showed that, though there was a decrease in test, there was no effect on lutenizing hormone
3. Though soy has been used to treat some cancers, it has also been shown to stimulate growth of estrogen based breast tumors.
4. If a patient is taking a thyroid medication, soy intake needs to be limited.

Hope that helps....

LegendKillerJosh
05-03-11, 11:18 pm
The latest study I just read all of concluded that soy protein gained lean muscle mass in subjects who lifted weights in equal amounts as those who consumed whey protein postworkout. In addition to adding as much lean muscle, soy protein DID NOT lower testosterone, and soy protein has many benefits such as isoflavones that increased athletic performance and other plant sterols that may lower cholesterol and help prevent some diseases.

In short, I don't know how some rumors get started, but people should stop spreading them without doing research.

D-Kev
05-04-11, 2:20 am
Hey LKJ - If that study was online, can you link it?

Man...So many conflicting ideologies on this topic.

I've since returned the meal replacement shake that caused me to start this thread, (which I see has somewhat confusingly been combined with someone else's from over 2yrs ago)
But man that shake was fucking delicious

Beowulf
05-04-11, 11:08 am
The latest study I just read all of concluded that soy protein gained lean muscle mass in subjects who lifted weights in equal amounts as those who consumed whey protein postworkout. In addition to adding as much lean muscle, soy protein DID NOT lower testosterone, and soy protein has many benefits such as isoflavones that increased athletic performance and other plant sterols that may lower cholesterol and help prevent some diseases.

In short, I don't know how some rumors get started, but people should stop spreading them without doing research.

If it's the same study I'm thinking, it was sponsored by the U.S. National Dairy Council, which is very interesting. And ironic.

Beowulf
05-04-11, 11:09 am
Hey LKJ - If that study was online, can you link it?

Man...So many conflicting ideologies on this topic.

I've since returned the meal replacement shake that caused me to start this thread, (which I see has somewhat confusingly been combined with someone else's from over 2yrs ago)
But man that shake was fucking delicious

Soy vs. whey. It's like iphone vs. Android-based smartphones. Republicans vs. Democrats. People are going to argue about it vehemently.

Beowulf
05-04-11, 11:18 am
Multiple studies have shown that muscle protein synthesis is significantly greater with milk-based proteins vs. soy-based proteins, even though there is not much difference in absorbability. Also, though it is the closest plant-based protein, soy is not a complete protein ((i.e., it’s missing methionine).

On other health issues:
1. Soy has shown to decline endothelial function and increase lipids
2. Test levels and soy intake have been shown to be inversely related in several studies; however, one study showed that, though there was a decrease in test, there was no effect on lutenizing hormone
3. Though soy has been used to treat some cancers, it has also been shown to stimulate growth of estrogen based breast tumors.
4. If a patient is taking a thyroid medication, soy intake needs to be limited.

Hope that helps....

It only helps in that it presents only half of the story. I can provide studies to show that soy reduces lipids (total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol). I could show you a study that shows that while whey had no significant impact on lowering triglyceride levels, soy did. I can also show you research that shows soy doesn't lower testosterone, or raise estrogen. Like you, I can also post research that shows the potential harms of using whey protein.

But you and I both know this kind of back and forth is ultimately fruitless. There will be no definitive answers on anything. Each has benefits and shortcomings. Neither is perfect. Far from it.

PORTERHOUSE
05-04-11, 11:53 am
Hey LKJ - If that study was online, can you link it?

Man...So many conflicting ideologies on this topic.

I've since returned the meal replacement shake that caused me to start this thread, (which I see has somewhat confusingly been combined with someone else's from over 2yrs ago)
But man that shake was fucking delicious

Honestly, its probably the best tasting shake on the market.

rev8ball
05-04-11, 12:02 pm
It only helps in that it presents only half of the story. I can provide studies to show that soy reduces lipids (total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol). I could show you a study that shows that while whey had no significant impact on lowering triglyceride levels, soy did. I can also show you research that shows soy doesn't lower testosterone, or raise estrogen. Like you, I can also post research that shows the potential harms of using whey protein.

But you and I both know this kind of back and forth is ultimately fruitless. There will be no definitive answers on anything. Each has benefits and shortcomings. Neither is perfect. Far from it.

Not really half of the story, just another side; no real intention on going back and forth. Studies were asked for, so I tried to accomidate. In fact, that's why I put exceptions to a few of the studies that I listed. But, yep - if anything were perfect, it'd put a lot of companies out of busines....lol

Beowulf
05-04-11, 12:34 pm
Not really half of the story, just another side; no real intention on going back and forth. Studies were asked for, so I tried to accomidate. In fact, that's why I put exceptions to a few of the studies that I listed. But, yep - if anything were perfect, it'd put a lot of companies out of busines....lol

Well played.

LegendKillerJosh
05-04-11, 1:27 pm
Hey LKJ - If that study was online, can you link it?

Man...So many conflicting ideologies on this topic.

I've since returned the meal replacement shake that caused me to start this thread, (which I see has somewhat confusingly been combined with someone else's from over 2yrs ago)
But man that shake was fucking delicious

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson71.htm
^^Here ya go, towards the bottom "the experts speak" and "benefits of soy protein" all contradict the negative shit people say, and they are all backed with sources, sites and studies.

Sprint
05-04-11, 7:29 pm
Everything in moderation.

Worried about getting quality protein in?

Steak + grill + fork.

Bottom line.

charlievanriper
05-06-11, 1:48 am
Enjoy, your future Gyno!!!!!!!!!

Alright after having lunch with a Research Scientist involved in Molecular nutrition 2 days after posting this, I have re evaluated and changed my mind on the use and effects of quality Non GMO Organic Soy Isolate.

I started using A product with Soy Isolate and Whey Hydrosalate within that same week, and now I am going to tell you my results so far.I am not looking for an argument or any internet posted research this is my experience so far in a couple weeks.
1) I have noticed a harder more lean muscle tone
2) I have noticed a much faster recovery rate
3) I have begun to see much more strength increases
4) the really cool thing which I always beleived would be the opposite is I have noticed a much leaner waist area since adding this Soy..

Obviously something is blocking Estrogen production, stimulating Testosterone and either blocking fat storage or stimulating the use of stored Brown Fat ( that around the waistline)

Sprint
05-06-11, 7:13 am
Alright after having lunch with a Research Scientist involved in Molecular nutrition 2 days after posting this, I have re evaluated and changed my mind on the use and effects of quality Non GMO Organic Soy Isolate.

I started using A product with Soy Isolate and Whey Hydrosalate within that same week, and now I am going to tell you my results so far.I am not looking for an argument or any internet posted research this is my experience so far in a couple weeks.
1) I have noticed a harder more lean muscle tone
2) I have noticed a much faster recovery rate
3) I have begun to see much more strength increases
4) the really cool thing which I always beleived would be the opposite is I have noticed a much leaner waist area since adding this Soy..

Obviously something is blocking Estrogen production, stimulating Testosterone and either blocking fat storage or stimulating the use of stored Brown Fat ( that around the waistline)

Out of interest, what were you using prior to changing things up bro?

charlievanriper
05-06-11, 7:58 am
Out of interest, what were you using prior to changing things up bro?

a blend of Whey ISO, Whey Concentrate,Mic Cassiein, Calcium Cassinate, Milk Protein ISO Egg for post Training and plain Whey ISO for wake up.

NJC_Manhattan
05-06-11, 6:21 pm
Let's revert to some academics....

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/protein-full-story/index.html

Sprint
05-07-11, 8:05 am
a blend of Whey ISO, Whey Concentrate,Mic Cassiein, Calcium Cassinate, Milk Protein ISO Egg for post Training and plain Whey ISO for wake up.

Already a fairly comprehensive protein profile then to start with then. I was just wondering if the addition of another form of protein could have accounted for the progress, but given that it was already fairly full, perhaps not.

charlievanriper
08-14-11, 8:19 pm
Well I stopped in to give some 2.5 month progress reports post surgery and remembered this little thread. Thier has been no other hidden sups are additives to my diet but look at how shredded I have gotten using a quality Non GMO Soy and Whey Protein source with hard work. Guys dont you think if all this generalized Crap about Soy was true dont you think some pushing 53 would have Estrogen stimulation problems among other things. In this pic you can see a dramitic improvement in lean bodyfat

This is a fully relaxed pic @7.69% bodyfat @ 166 lbs
http://i56.tinypic.com/16c56bc.jpg
Waist 30.10 //ABs measurement at Belly 30.45

I do agree with the findings when your dealing with general Commercial Soy Products to a point., But when you find a Product that is NON GMO (not genetically altered) and Has had the Isoflavones removed ( thus eliminating all Estrogen Activators and the problems inherant with Isoflavanoids) then you have a solid food based quality Protein source!

violator
08-16-11, 3:54 am
Why is this? On what basis exactly? You have yet to address any of my posts thus far.

Estrogen argument aside,

All protein is, is branched chain amino acids

Soy has a BCAA profile that is inferior to whey/ dairy products

Whey is inferior to Meat & poulty

hence, using soy will not provide you with enough of a complete BCAA profile to fuel recovery as efficiently as dairy, poultry or meat.

case closed.

and if anyone thinks using soy can give you gyno... get off the crack...

charlievanriper
08-21-11, 12:43 am
Well I stopped in to give some 2.5 month progress reports post surgery and remembered this little thread. Thier has been no other hidden sups are additives to my diet but look at how shredded I have gotten using a quality Non GMO Soy and Whey Protein source with hard work. Guys dont you think if all this generalized Crap about Soy was true dont you think some pushing 53 would have Estrogen stimulation problems among other things. In this pic you can see a dramitic improvement in lean bodyfat

This is a fully relaxed pic @7.69% bodyfat @ 166 lbs
http://i56.tinypic.com/16c56bc.jpg
Waist 30.10 //ABs measurement at Belly 30.45

I do agree with the findings when your dealing with general Commercial Soy Products to a point., But when you find a Product that is NON GMO (not genetically altered) and Has had the Isoflavones removed ( thus eliminating all Estrogen Activators and the problems inherant with Isoflavanoids) then you have a solid food based quality Protein source!

Again I disagree with any findings that put NON GMO SOY as a weak Protein source. It is building this Shredded 53 yr old. This is now current
http://i55.tinypic.com/ibhxyr.jpg

7.41% @ 163.7, 30 in waist, 31 inch Abdominal mmeasurement, And the biggest pro is major groups such as Shoulders, Chest, Quads are up in size. I'm not losing Muscle, I'm losing Fat, using a Blended Whey Concentrate with Cassien and NON GMO SOY!!!!!!!! According to all the negative comments I must be an Abnormality lol.

I also used The Same NON GMO SOY product to reach this back on March 12th at my first show.
http://i53.tinypic.com/dyoljb.jpg

violator
08-21-11, 9:31 am
^ bro, im sure its not just the soy thats helping you out, a protein replacement is just a small part of the total equation no?

whats the rest of your diet look like? Im sure thats where youre seeing the majority of the results from...

sure, soy might have its place but thats not saying there arent more effective options out there...

charlievanriper
08-21-11, 12:27 pm
V,
It all has its place. I am not saying Soy created this or has gotten me to a sub 30 wast or a sub 31 Abdominal Measurement as of this morning, The point that I am adding is not all SOY is bad, Not all Soy raises Estrogen, not all Soy should be avoided. As Beowolf has stated A quality Non GMO washed Soy Protein can be a valuable Healthy addition to any Diet, with hard work. I use this as a multitier Protein source.

Here is a link to what I use and have been using for 8 months now, along with Spotpharma's Just Whey for my Keto runs and when I need a quick digesting Protein source.
https://www.facebook.com/charlievanriper#!/note.php?note_id=10150258634255095

charlievanriper
08-21-11, 12:29 pm
^ bro, im sure its not just the soy thats helping you out, a protein replacement is just a small part of the total equation no?

whats the rest of your diet look like? Im sure thats where youre seeing the majority of the results from...

sure, soy might have its place but thats not saying there arent more effective options out there...

Agreed V, I would never use just Soy as a single source, but I am a fan of good quality blended sources. Take for example Sportpharmas Specialized for lean gains, I love that stuff and still occasionally use it as well.

violator
08-21-11, 1:32 pm
V,
It all has its place. I am not saying Soy created this or has gotten me to a sub 30 wast or a sub 31 Abdominal Measurement as of this morning, The point that I am adding is not all SOY is bad, Not all Soy raises Estrogen, not all Soy should be avoided. As Beowolf has stated A quality Non GMO washed Soy Protein can be a valuable Healthy addition to any Diet, with hard work. I use this as a multitier Protein source.

Here is a link to what I use and have been using for 8 months now, along with Spotpharma's Just Whey for my Keto runs and when I need a quick digesting Protein source.
https://www.facebook.com/charlievanriper#!/note.php?note_id=10150258634255095

Well done on the sub 30 measurement bro! thats one hell of an achievement!

i agree with soy being made out as the estrogen devil that will give you bitch tits if you use it...absolute nonsense, especially the GMO washed versions...

but i still believe that there are much more effective options out there...

that being said, youve still got that sub 30 waistline...and at the end of the day, thats what counts... shit, even if you were eating sugar coated dogcrap, if it brings the results, then i say mo power to ya!

charlievanriper
08-22-11, 5:17 pm
Well done on the sub 30 measurement bro! thats one hell of an achievement!

i agree with soy being made out as the estrogen devil that will give you bitch tits if you use it...absolute nonsense, especially the GMO washed versions...

but i still believe that there are much more effective options out there...

that being said, youve still got that sub 30 waistline...and at the end of the day, thats what counts... shit, even if you were eating sugar coated dogcrap, if it brings the results, then i say mo power to ya!

Hey Bro thats to funny, ya if it works, but the taste man I dont think even sugar would make that tasty lol.
ya I am pretty happy to hit sub 30 at the waist, but the big one is right across the belly button, thats the Abdominal one 24 months ago that was 38 inches across (freaking terrible ) today its just below 31 and the goal is 30. So I'm still struggling along lol.Again thx for the acknowelegment of the hard work it takes to get lean.

LegendKillerJosh
02-10-12, 6:10 pm
Here is part of an article about protein sources from Power magazine, one of my favorites:

Despite decades of research on soy, the debate rages: Will soy shrivel manly parts and enhance breast size? Both sides of this question can offer research to prove their points, as well as nasty words to refute everything else. That's fine, they can fight amongst themselves. Throw all the tofu burgers and pork chops you want, because there is no question that soy sucks - but not because of concerns over manliness or moobs.

The problem with soy: it contains antinutritional factors. That's right, anti-nutritional. A critical enzyme necessary for the digestion, and therefore use, of protein in mammals is trypsin, and soy contains large amounts of a trypsin inhibitor. Soy decreases the amount of protein the body can process. Adding the extra protein from the soy won't solve the problem because there's simply no way to digest any protein once soy neutralizes trypsin. As an example, research shows that eating soy with beef decreases the amount of protein utilization by almost 70%.

Although soy isolate might sound safe, as it should be the isolated soy protein, it still contains about 50% of the trypsin inhibitor found in the whole bean. Show me the research that indicates soy isolates and hydrolysates increase muscle protein synthesis. Great, now try to purchase the highly refined research-grade soy protein they use for the studies. You ain't gonna find it on the shelves at GNC.

Pizzalamp
02-10-12, 8:17 pm
i think we need to just focus on the basics
quality non soy supplements to keep the estrogen down
the boys in arnolds day focused on steak-not soy isolates
whole eggs
heavy whipping cream in shakes
compound lifts
being functional and not meat heads that get winded walking up stairs
oats
potatoes
fruits
veggies
basically us motherfuckers need lots of non soy calories to lift heavy ass weights

Universal Rep
02-15-12, 2:48 pm
Here is part of an article about protein sources from Power magazine, one of my favorites:

Despite decades of research on soy, the debate rages: Will soy shrivel manly parts and enhance breast size? Both sides of this question can offer research to prove their points, as well as nasty words to refute everything else. That's fine, they can fight amongst themselves. Throw all the tofu burgers and pork chops you want, because there is no question that soy sucks - but not because of concerns over manliness or moobs.

The problem with soy: it contains antinutritional factors. That's right, anti-nutritional. A critical enzyme necessary for the digestion, and therefore use, of protein in mammals is trypsin, and soy contains large amounts of a trypsin inhibitor. Soy decreases the amount of protein the body can process. Adding the extra protein from the soy won't solve the problem because there's simply no way to digest any protein once soy neutralizes trypsin. As an example, research shows that eating soy with beef decreases the amount of protein utilization by almost 70%.

Although soy isolate might sound safe, as it should be the isolated soy protein, it still contains about 50% of the trypsin inhibitor found in the whole bean. Show me the research that indicates soy isolates and hydrolysates increase muscle protein synthesis. Great, now try to purchase the highly refined research-grade soy protein they use for the studies. You ain't gonna find it on the shelves at GNC.

Ugh.... So much fear mongering. I expect better from ya LKJ...

charlievanriper
03-30-13, 3:14 am
Wow been a while lol. Lots have changed. 3 comps now under my belt. 1 did okay, 2 won top 3. Currently training at Metroflex Phx and in prep for Memorial day muscle beach, May 28th

Ox
03-30-13, 9:01 am
Consider this: Nolvadex, used to treat breast cancer is technically an estrogen. It so closely resembles estrogen that it has the ability to occupy the estrogen receptor, tie it up and not allow estrogen to bind and exert its effects. Is it possible that phytoestrogens can act in a similar way? All phytoestrogens will physically resemble estrogen but will they necessarily exert estrogen type effects or could they possibly act as an anti-estrogen?

Diindolylmethane is a chemical found is cruciferous veggies and it supposedly can aid in the metabolism of estrogen. Metabolism of estrogen is another thin to consider. Some say flax oil is good for reducing estrogen. How? My guess is that it's because it's good for your liver and your liver is what must metabolize all hormones. If your liver is overworked/congested/sick, it's safe to say that estrogen can build up and cause problems. Also, didn't know this but there are different types of estrogens and supposedly this chemical can reduce one type and raise another.

Bottom line, I don't think it's as simple as food "x" contains phytoestrogens> phytoestrogens resemeble estrogen> estrogen is bad = don't eat things high in phytoestrogens.

But I don't know even close to all there is to know on this subject so I don't know the answer! But I do generally avoid soy because nearly all of it is genetically modified and I don't know how I feel about that either.

skibasgym
03-30-13, 1:28 pm
Soy definitely increases estrogen. I steer away from it.

charlievanriper
03-30-13, 4:43 pm
Soy definitely increases estrogen. I steer away from it.

Yes good Estrogen, the kind that allows T to actually be used by Muscles. Ha ha 38 yrs of Soy god I absolutely LOVE my huge Man BOOBS. LMAO at all the Fear mongering.

charlievanriper
03-30-13, 4:51 pm
Consider this: Nolvadex, used to treat breast cancer is technically an estrogen. It so closely resembles estrogen that it has the ability to occupy the estrogen receptor, tie it up and not allow estrogen to bind and exert its effects. Is it possible that phytoestrogens can act in a similar way? All phytoestrogens will physically resemble estrogen but will they necessarily exert estrogen type effects or could they possibly act as an anti-estrogen?

Diindolylmethane is a chemical found is cruciferous veggies and it supposedly can aid in the metabolism of estrogen. Metabolism of estrogen is another thin to consider. Some say flax oil is good for reducing estrogen. How? My guess is that it's because it's good for your liver and your liver is what must metabolize all hormones. If your liver is overworked/congested/sick, it's safe to say that estrogen can build up and cause problems. Also, didn't know this but there are different types of estrogens and supposedly this chemical can reduce one type and raise another.

Bottom line, I don't think it's as simple as food "x" contains phytoestrogens> phytoestrogens resemeble estrogen> estrogen is bad = don't eat things high in phytoestrogens.

But I don't know even close to all there is to know on this subject so I don't know the answer! But I do generally avoid soy because nearly all of it is genetically modified and I don't know how I feel about that either.

Exactly OX, There are multiple types of Estrogen and the good kind is paramount Testosterone being used for something more than getting wood lol. As stated Soy Promotes the increase of Good Estrogen not The Bad. Not all is GMO but yes 98% of it in the US is, If it doesnt say Non GMO dont eat it but if it is NON GMO it is a great add to your Diet. Good Research is always better than Myths and Fear.

skibasgym
03-30-13, 4:58 pm
Touche!

TigerAce01
03-30-13, 5:16 pm
Am I the only person that doesn't really care?

I've taken soy in the past...didn't care for it due to texture and taste...but I used it as a supplement to my food because it was available. That's it...

From what I've read a researched, which from my knowledge is most likely biased, partial, and out of context...soy is genetically modified and not actually processed in a healthy way. For that reason, along with taste, I don't go out and buy it above other sources...but I don't care!! If someone gave me a free jar of soy protein, I'd use it for the sake of extra protein. I'm not afraid of the estrogen issues because if I started having side effects, I'd stop using it!!

Bottom line...if you feel it works for you, USE IT! If you don't like it or are afraid of potential effects...DON'T USE IT!!

I don't see the big problem here...

-Ace

charlievanriper
03-30-13, 5:41 pm
Am I the only person that doesn't really care?

I've taken soy in the past...didn't care for it due to texture and taste...but I used it as a supplement to my food because it was available. That's it...

From what I've read a researched, which from my knowledge is most likely biased, partial, and out of context...soy is genetically modified and not actually processed in a healthy way. For that reason, along with taste, I don't go out and buy it above other sources...but I don't care!! If someone gave me a free jar of soy protein, I'd use it for the sake of extra protein. I'm not afraid of the estrogen issues because if I started having side effects, I'd stop using it!!

Bottom line...if you feel it works for you, USE IT! If you don't like it or are afraid of potential effects...DON'T USE IT!!

I don't see the big problem here...

-Ace

:) Good response

IrishMike
04-02-13, 10:58 am
I am actually trying to lose some fat.

With flax, is it the fiber?

Also, do you have any more tips in regards to meal timing as far as a fat burning diet?

Do to my schedule, I have my first meal at about 730am and work out at 730 pm

Thanks alot