View Full Version : DEADLIFTS; first or last in routine?
Tallwhitebread0042
01-25-09, 5:57 pm
i must say my deadlift and squat are weak-simply because i have never done them really (ironically my legs are undersized.
i am 6 foot 6 so i do not do barbell squats because i feel nothing but a lower back pump. im a bout to start squatting on a smith machine and do front squats.
my question is. should i do deadlifts first or last in my routine? i really wanna work on my back and get it as thick as possible, but would deadlifting first give me more overall mass?
(ironically i can move the same weight pretty much at the beginning of my workout as opposed to doing them at the end when my back is pre-exhausted).
some insight from some bright dead/squatters???
although i do them at the end of my workout, i have already seen an improvement in my thickness and my inner hams
SQUAT or DIE!
01-25-09, 5:58 pm
i rotate them, some weeks i squat then pull others pull then squat...
I like to get my major compounds out of the way first. Once in a while I will hit some heavy bb rows or T-bar rows then do my deads, but for the most part I do them first.
I read somewhere that maybe if you do your deads last for a couple months then move them back up to doing em first....you should gain some good strength. Same goes for squats, etc. Hope that helps bro.
I think you may be overanalyzing a bit here...regardless of whether you do them first or last, just make sure week after week your progessing with weight while keeping perfect form.
shizz702
01-25-09, 8:56 pm
I understand being tall (I'm 6'3") makes it a bitch to squat, but still you should not neglect it. The smith machine can't compare to the barbell squat, and if you you develop the proper form you won't have any back pumps.
Depending on your routine, I would do deadlifts on back day first if you are doing a split, if you are doing full body, I'd do squats first. Of course, if doing a split do squats first on leg day.
prowrestler
01-25-09, 10:18 pm
height means nothing. alot of strong men are tall and it is advantagoues, yet they can still squat a ton.
you must simply learn how to squat and strengthen your lower back with good mornings, reverse hypers ect.
we got alot of tall guys here who squat, SHIZZ is tall and he has squatted 3 times a week on a program, and pulls too.
IRBS is 6 foot 3 i think and squats a shit load.
..and im 5 foot 7.... but whatever lol! just means my approach is a bit different then yours.
remember, if you dont barbell squat, your a pussy. its ingraved in stone dude.
oh, and john cena is 6 foot 4 and squats 555 raw and for working sets. PERFECT FORM AND ATG.
look up some vids on youtube for proper squatting form. your missin out on alot. and the smith makes it worse, trust me, i had to spend a lot of time after useing it to re learn free weight squats. i wish i just did no squats vs smith squats.
ive done both, ive maxed on deads prior to squats, i was ok, i have maxed on squats prior to deads and found it harder. lower back pumps.
id alternate it like this
week 1, squat then deadlift VARIATION
week 2, deadlift then squat VARIATION ( or higher rep deep squats)
Stovall
01-25-09, 10:37 pm
remember, if you dont barbell squat, your a pussy. its ingraved in stone dude.
Now I take alittle offense to that statement. Some people are not suited for squats. I can't do them due to an injury to my left knee in a motorcycle accident so I physically can not squat. Everyone is built different and all excercises don't fit them.
If you would have said that doing the barbell squat will probably be more beneficial than a smith machine then I would agree. You would also like to keep his pain in consideration. Telling him that he is basically a "pussy" for not doing squats is the same as telling him to ignore his pain and keep doing them. That is not the way you need to train, that leads to injuries. He would need to build his lower back first while doing a different leg routine without squats. Then when he feels his back is stronger he then could start using the bb squat and see if the pain continues.
Now as for that stone, I want to see that and meet the cave man that chiseled it. No offense meant in any way Pro.
prowrestler
01-25-09, 10:58 pm
ive come back form 4 knee injurys so i no what its about.
and the "if you dont squat your a pussy" thing is a common saying. and there is a pick, its been posted here a few times recently.
no offence taken. i do have a balls lol.
look, if you can squat and choose not too cause its hard, YOU ARE A PUSSY. i dont care if i hurt anyones feelings or not, truth hurts...
IF YOU CAN NOT squat do to a legit reason, then i can definatly under stand.
but i learned how to rehab and returned to squating
Iceiktitan
01-25-09, 11:07 pm
First step to conquering this problem is to do Squats and Full Deadlifts reguarly with good form. You be the judge of how textbook close you are to form.
As far as a lower back pump is concerned, that is a common issue for some. If you really want to isolate the quads pause at the bottom of the squat for 2-5 seconds and explode up. 4 sets x 10 reps for example. No you won't be able to use a whole lot of weight but your Quads will be fried.
Front Squats are a good option along with Smith Squatting every so often. It is good to rotate the exercises you use and the intensities and techniques of those exercises every so often.
A basic layout could point you towards doing deadlifts first one week and then at the end another week. You will have to find out what works best for you bro.
Hope this helps.
i must say my deadlift and squat are weak-simply because i have never done them really (ironically my legs are undersized.
i am 6 foot 6 so i do not do barbell squats because i feel nothing but a lower back pump. im a bout to start squatting on a smith machine and do front squats.
my question is. should i do deadlifts first or last in my routine? i really wanna work on my back and get it as thick as possible, but would deadlifting first give me more overall mass?
(ironically i can move the same weight pretty much at the beginning of my workout as opposed to doing them at the end when my back is pre-exhausted).
some insight from some bright dead/squatters???
although i do them at the end of my workout, i have already seen an improvement in my thickness and my inner hams
ronald1919
01-25-09, 11:27 pm
Deads first in the workout, you want to go all out this is a power movement.
Taller guys have it harder but I think they are also potentially stronger.
btw isnt John Cena like 6/6'1 ?
prowrestler
01-25-09, 11:57 pm
Deads first in the workout, you want to go all out this is a power movement.
Taller guys have it harder but I think they are also potentially stronger.
btw isnt John Cena like 6/6'1 ?
no, 6 foot 4
ive come back form 4 knee injurys so i no what its about.
and the "if you dont squat your a pussy" thing is a common saying. and there is a pick, its been posted here a few times recently.
no offence taken. i do have a balls lol.
look, if you can squat and choose not too cause its hard, YOU ARE A PUSSY. i dont care if i hurt anyones feelings or not, truth hurts...
IF YOU CAN NOT squat do to a legit reason, then i can definatly under stand.
but i learned how to rehab and returned to squating
im glad someone's with me. i just had my 3rd surgery on my right knee, and like you probably know, it fucking sucks. my quads and hamstrings are gone and now its physio and rehab for 6 months to a year.
u squatting now and everythings fine? i really want to squat, and i used to after my first and second operation, but i cant fuck my knee up again. theres already 2 sets of holes drilled through my pattella and i cant do this again. any advice will be appreciated man
and to regards to the topic, i always did it at the beginning of my workout, but i read a article by Shak on the main site the other day where he said u should do it at the end of your workout. so i guess both work, like the guys said, maybe mix it up. for a few week do it in the beginning and then at the end. my 2 cents
Stovall
01-26-09, 12:09 pm
no offence taken. i do have a balls lol.
That part made me laugh pretty hard. The girl at the front desk of the hotel thinks I'm going crazy now. Hurt feelings...nah. And its great that you recovered enough to be able to squat again. I would love to because it was my best lift at one time. If I do elect to have surgery later on I hope this will solve my problem and put me back under the bar.
prowrestler
01-26-09, 3:04 pm
im glad someone's with me. i just had my 3rd surgery on my right knee, and like you probably know, it fucking sucks. my quads and hamstrings are gone and now its physio and rehab for 6 months to a year.
u squatting now and everythings fine? i really want to squat, and i used to after my first and second operation, but i cant fuck my knee up again. theres already 2 sets of holes drilled through my pattella and i cant do this again. any advice will be appreciated man
you must rehab 100% before trying to get back in
i had re injured my knee 4 times in 6 months. i got back in the ring and it simply could not support my weight comming down from the moves we do and the pace i do them at. it simply popped.
took my time off, trained eveything else, stretched the hurt leg to regain flexibility, lots of ice...
now after my self applied rehab, its been since july 2007 and no fuckin re injury. i was able to begin barbell squatting july 2008 and my best squat is 405lbs 1 inch high unfortunatly and an easy 345lbs 2 inchs below depth. both paused on a box.
nothin special but for 7 months training, im happy.
it is do able. Triple H, Shawn micheals and i think even my boy John Cena have all come back from knee injurys. john squats 555 raw and no drugs and ATG and perfect form.
it is do able. remember that.
knee extensions,side pressure exercises (youtube) and step ups of all heights work great. do not nrglect calfs, they are important for knee injurys
i must say my deadlift and squat are weak-simply because i have never done them really (ironically my legs are undersized.
i am 6 foot 6 so i do not do barbell squats because i feel nothing but a lower back pump. im a bout to start squatting on a smith machine and do front squats.
my question is. should i do deadlifts first or last in my routine? i really wanna work on my back and get it as thick as possible, but would deadlifting first give me more overall mass?
(ironically i can move the same weight pretty much at the beginning of my workout as opposed to doing them at the end when my back is pre-exhausted).
some insight from some bright dead/squatters???
although i do them at the end of my workout, i have already seen an improvement in my thickness and my inner hams
OP, if you're getting back pumps doing squats, you're not doing them right. Chest up, back straight, then squat as you would into a chair and KEEP THE CHEST UP, LOOK SLIGHTLY DOWN TO YOUR FEET (will help you keep your chest up), GO DOWN LOW, THEN SQUAT UP.
The squat is a great exercise as is the deadlift. I suggest squat first, since your legs are your weak point. Then procede to the deadlift. Once you feel that your legs are up to point, then switch the order every month or so.... Don't ever use the height as a excuse to not squat! I've seen 6'6 boys squat 500 to the ground... don't let excuses and improper form hinder your squat!
Tallwhitebread0042
01-26-09, 3:44 pm
well i do deadlifts on back day and squats on leg day so that's not a problem BUT.
"OP, if you're getting back pumps doing squats, you're not doing them right. Chest up, back straight, then squat as you would into a chair and KEEP THE CHEST UP, LOOK SLIGHTLY DOWN TO YOUR FEET (will help you keep your chest up), GO DOWN LOW, THEN SQUAT UP."
my chest is up, back is straight but i have to bend forward quite far (just as arnold did) because im 6'6". i dunno if it's physically possible for my back to stay "upright", yet i've seen Tony Freeman have perfect form. does this have something to do with my hip flexibility or something?
Tallwhitebread0042
01-26-09, 3:46 pm
and to Prowrestler
if you dont squat, you are not a pussy. dorian yates did not squat and he was definitely not a pussy. bodybuilders are concerned about doing certain exercises to get certain results. if they can't get a certain feel outta exercises like they are supposed to then they shouldn't do them.
for example 82934903240% of guys quit doing bench press cause they have stronger front delts and get nothing out of it.
in my case, i have to bend forward quite far and get a lowerback pump instead, thus i ignore the exercise.
i put 6 inches in my thighs in a year and i didn't squat. i know it's possible to get gains without it, but if i started squatting correctly they'd blow up.
SQUAT or DIE!
01-26-09, 3:54 pm
though i will agree that you dont have to squat to have big legs, if your not willing to put your well being at risk and get under a bar and squat a shit load of weight.. in a way your being a pussy, unless for some reason you can not squat then you are ok..
then again i powerlift, and squatting is the corner stone of my sanity... but if your gonna get on stage, do what ya gotta do to get them wheels..
prowrestler
01-26-09, 4:11 pm
looks like i hurt peoples feelings with the "if you dont squat, your a pussy" quote
like previously stated, if there is no reason why not to squat, the quote holds true.
what you gotta do is learn to squat properly, look on videos on youtube.com practice it as often as you can.
dont take it as im shooting on you, im not, just trying to help you out man.
damn, i must be a puss, not because i dont squat, but i cant squat and dl on the same night.
period. in a nut shel my split is mon-fri
legs-m
chest-t
back-w
shoulders-t
arms-f
however i can couple chest and back into one night, but if i squat then my dl sucks and vice versa. it ends up beings alow back problem/fatigue before anything else. im not the largest guy, or the strongest. 5'10'' 220 (no super lean though).
i can consistently dl 315 (conventional) squat numbers suck though 225 (atg)
anyway im not asking for advice on form, i just dont see how you sons of bitches can do squat and dl on the same night and give it 100% on both.
Giant Killer
01-26-09, 4:52 pm
Deadlifts first. Everything else is secondary.
well i do deadlifts on back day and squats on leg day so that's not a problem BUT.
"OP, if you're getting back pumps doing squats, you're not doing them right. Chest up, back straight, then squat as you would into a chair and KEEP THE CHEST UP, LOOK SLIGHTLY DOWN TO YOUR FEET (will help you keep your chest up), GO DOWN LOW, THEN SQUAT UP."
my chest is up, back is straight but i have to bend forward quite far (just as arnold did) because im 6'6". i dunno if it's physically possible for my back to stay "upright", yet i've seen Tony Freeman have perfect form. does this have something to do with my hip flexibility or something?
Wider stance. Hip flexibility and calf flexibility will allow you to squat deeper with better form. Stretch your calves and go wide on the squat to involve the hips more. Also, place the bar lower, as a powerlifter would. That should help. If not, then just focus on other things for legs. Squats are not necessary to build legs, but they will definetely build legs like no other.
prowrestler
01-26-09, 5:02 pm
damn, i must be a puss, not because i dont squat, but i cant squat and dl on the same night.
period. in a nut shel my split is mon-fri
legs-m
chest-t
back-w
shoulders-t
arms-f
however i can couple chest and back into one night, but if i squat then my dl sucks and vice versa. it ends up beings alow back problem/fatigue before anything else. im not the largest guy, or the strongest. 5'10'' 220 (no super lean though).
i can consistently dl 315 (conventional) squat numbers suck though 225 (atg)
anyway im not asking for advice on form, i just dont see how you sons of bitches can do squat and dl on the same night and give it 100% on both.
cuz where awsome, only reason lol
i think it really has to do with adaption, keep on trying squats and deads same workout and see. took me a while back in my BB days but it payed off ALOT in my PL days now.
i say this
squat 100% first, then a form of the deadlift
-next week-
deadlift 100%, some form of the squat second
Tallwhitebread0042
01-26-09, 7:06 pm
well i want to squat. i know the correct form but i have to bend forward quite far giving my lowerback a stronger workout than my thighs (my lowerback is strong its just cuz im so tall if i want to go parallel then my torso just bends forward)
what would i have to do to correct my back from leaning forward? it's not just hey check your technique. i really think it's something to do with flexibility. cuz arnold used to bend forward quite far while he squatted (which he noted "squats were my best lower back exercise")
i would love to learn how to squat properly...
Giant Killer
01-26-09, 7:07 pm
well i want to squat. i know the correct form but i have to bend forward quite far giving my lowerback a stronger workout than my thighs (my lowerback is strong its just cuz im so tall if i want to go parallel then my torso just bends forward)
what would i have to do to correct my back from leaning forward? it's not just hey check your technique. i really think it's something to do with flexibility. cuz arnold used to bend forward quite far while he squatted (which he noted "squats were my best lower back exercise")
i would love to learn how to squat properly...
When you squat keep your chest high and puffed out and squat down "between your legs", keep your eyes straight forward or at a slight angle upwards. That should prevent your back from bending.
shizz702
01-26-09, 7:09 pm
Everything you need to know about squatting here: http://www.melbook.co.cc/mbook/Bodybuilding%20%26%20Fitness/Mark%20Rippetoe%20-%20Starting%20Strength.pdf
Read the entire chapter on the squat.
jeff00z28
01-26-09, 7:43 pm
looks like i hurt peoples feelings with the "if you dont squat, your a pussy" quote
like previously stated, if there is no reason why not to squat, the quote holds true.
what you gotta do is learn to squat properly, look on videos on youtube.com practice it as often as you can.
dont take it as im shooting on you, im not, just trying to help you out man.
who cares if they were offended. the dude made an excuse. NO EXCUSES = big lifts
Young&Hungry
01-26-09, 11:36 pm
Keep in mind there is a stark difference between Dorian Yates and the author of this post. Dorian could probably touch his prick all day and be 275 pounds completely ripped, any pro bodybuilder at that kind of championship level must have God like genetics to even think about winning an Olympia, let alone as many as he did. Dorian was also a bodybuilder who had 20, 30 years of hard training under his belt. Sure, as he got older and more beat up, and more importantly wiser, he used 20 years of experience as an elite level bodybuilder to make the judgement call that he could still benefit from other exercises and keep his leg growth where it should be without the risk versus reward that he based that call on.
Now the author sounds like pretty much a new guy. I do not think at this stage of the game that he has any authority to deem what exercises he feels suit him best. Sure, with assistance stuff I think everyone has something that works differently for each individual, but if you have less than 10-15 years of completely balls out training, you should live breathe eat sweat the core four - bench press, military press, squats, and deadlifts.
About being too tall? Matt Rhodes is 6'5" and has squatted a grand, Phil Phister has done something like over 700-800 raw and does a 1200+ yoke, you won't see a top 10 high school lineman recruit squatting any less than 500 and they're all 6'4" and over. The list goes on. Shut up and squat my friend.
SQUAT or DIE!
01-26-09, 11:53 pm
Shut up and squat my friend.
beautifully written my friend...
well i want to squat. i know the correct form but i have to bend forward quite far giving my lowerback a stronger workout than my thighs (my lowerback is strong its just cuz im so tall if i want to go parallel then my torso just bends forward)
what would i have to do to correct my back from leaning forward? it's not just hey check your technique. i really think it's something to do with flexibility. cuz arnold used to bend forward quite far while he squatted (which he noted "squats were my best lower back exercise")
i would love to learn how to squat properly...
i've been workin with a guy at my gym, who has poor balance in the squat. and whats been helping him, just found this out tonight are front squats, with the bar across his front delts, it allows him to put his body weight back more and hold his torso more upright as he squats deep. helluva a core workout as well