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redskin 344
04-02-09, 6:33 pm
Pavel Tsatsouline wrote a russion strength training book called "the naked warrior" which I currently own and got these facts from. Pavel says that strength is a 'mind over muscle' kind of thing and is achieved with greatness when your mind focuses on tensing the muscle harder. Its called 'skill-strength' by the russians because strength is a skill from what I have heard. He says that frequent practice of muscle tension and focus on tensing the muscle harder without fatiguing or straining the muscle so you are able to train as frequently as possible is the true key to strength.

I believe in this and have been for a while.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mm2.htm
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/164/
GTG (what I am talking about)http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/85/health-fitness/grease-groove-gtg-351628/



In the book, he includes 'The 5 Fs' of strength training:

FOCUSED
-focus on no more than doing 2 big movements and their variations
-focus on tensing the muscle harder using tension techniques (tensing hands, abs and glutes)
-Use high tension and low reps
-do fewer exercises better

FLAWLESS
-Practice must be perfect
-use perfect form and technique

FREQUENT
-train as frequently as possible
-the more often you do something, the better you get at it

FRESH
-completely avoid fatigue so you can train as frequently as possible
-Low reps are best for staying fresh along with being best for max strength gains

FLUCTUATE
-constantly vary the volume, intensity and exercise variation
-you will avoid overuse injury and keep things fun




Do you guys agree with this way of strength training? I do.

brandonA
04-02-09, 6:44 pm
There ya go, something we can chew on and see how it tastes....nice work...

-B

sodapop
04-03-09, 8:36 am
I'd have to say that I don't agree with this kind of training. I don't see strength as a skill (though skill is part of it). Strength is built up over time as muscles break down and are rebuilt bigger and stronger.

Just my opinion.

JMC
04-03-09, 9:29 am
Good stuff redskin!

JUGGERNAUT
04-03-09, 11:53 am
Cool

mritter3
04-03-09, 12:00 pm
it is an intersting theory, i do believe more in breaking the muscle fibers down and growing and such, but i do believe it takes a certain skill to do it, otherwise wouldn't we all be huge by now?? i mean seriously lets face it not just any joe off the street can do it, if so we would see a lot more joe's

J-Dawg
04-03-09, 12:45 pm
It is an interesting theory. Are there examples of elite powerlifters who perform this?

mark
04-03-09, 12:46 pm
Yes, the Russians are known for doing the big 3 several times per week. However, there are very strict guidelines they follow for their loading, frequency, average volume and average intensity.

Most of their lifting occurs in the 60-80% range, with an argumenet of pushing 85% in certain clubs.
The reason for their percentage guidelines is a result of bar speed vs. total power output vs work. When you hit the extremes of the curves, aka below 60 and above 80, the amount in increase of effort doesn't produce an equal increase in results (remember, this is theory), aka the training becomes less efficient.

To simply go in haphazardly and do X number of reps at Y weight for Z sets is asking for failure when you actually get to a greater than average level of strength.

Pavel's concept that you speak of in this thread does work... HOWEVER... you still have much to learn about how the specifics of training and adaptation work... ESPECIALLY if you are going to give out advice on it.
I suggest you pick a copy of "Supertraining" from EliteFTS. It's a book by Mel Siff, that ties much of the original Russian texts together.

IRBS
04-03-09, 1:22 pm
Yes, the Russians are known for doing the big 3 several times per week. However, there are very strict guidelines they follow for their loading, frequency, average volume and average intensity.

Most of their lifting occurs in the 60-80% range, with an argumenet of pushing 85% in certain clubs.
The reason for their percentage guidelines is a result of bar speed vs. total power output vs work. When you hit the extremes of the curves, aka below 60 and above 80, the amount in increase of effort doesn't produce an equal increase in results (remember, this is theory), aka the training becomes less efficient.

To simply go in haphazardly and do X number of reps at Y weight for Z sets is asking for failure when you actually get to a greater than average level of strength.

Pavel's concept that you speak of in this thread does work... HOWEVER... you still have much to learn about how the specifics of training and adaptation work... ESPECIALLY if you are going to give out advice on it.
I suggest you pick a copy of "Supertraining" from EliteFTS. It's a book by Mel Siff, that ties much of the original Russian texts together.

Excellent post Mark.

fenix237
04-03-09, 1:34 pm
Yes, the Russians are known for doing the big 3 several times per week. However, there are very strict guidelines they follow for their loading, frequency, average volume and average intensity.

Most of their lifting occurs in the 60-80% range, with an argumenet of pushing 85% in certain clubs.
The reason for their percentage guidelines is a result of bar speed vs. total power output vs work. When you hit the extremes of the curves, aka below 60 and above 80, the amount in increase of effort doesn't produce an equal increase in results (remember, this is theory), aka the training becomes less efficient.

To simply go in haphazardly and do X number of reps at Y weight for Z sets is asking for failure when you actually get to a greater than average level of strength.

Pavel's concept that you speak of in this thread does work... HOWEVER... you still have much to learn about how the specifics of training and adaptation work... ESPECIALLY if you are going to give out advice on it.
I suggest you pick a copy of "Supertraining" from EliteFTS. It's a book by Mel Siff, that ties much of the original Russian texts together.

mark- that's exactly what i was going to say- hahaha!!! just kidding.... very insighful post- i'd like to read more on style of training

peace-BRP

mark
04-03-09, 1:57 pm
mark- that's exactly what i was going to say- hahaha!!! just kidding.... very insighful post- i'd like to read more on style of training

peace-BRP

Go to EliteFTS and buy all the Russian Texts. They're the frame work from which this system of training is built.
Also, go to dragondoor.com and ask around for more info regarding Pavel's loading parameters.

redskin 344
04-03-09, 5:44 pm
Heres another great article

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode3&articleid=353
about excelling in the bench press using my technique program

Giant Killer
04-03-09, 6:34 pm
Time under tension is really a bodybuilding technique and doesn't have a place in powerlifting in my opinion. I don't think it would really have much value in the context of strength training, focusing extensively on muscle tensing would detract from strength and maximum effort.

redskin 344
04-03-09, 7:41 pm
http://trainingdimensions.net/SOS/SOS%202007/Grease%20the%20Groove%20for%20Strength.pdf This article sums up what GTG is all about-SYNAPTIC FACILITATION. You do so many sets in the week that your muscles become superconductors from the messages sent from your brain and your muscles tense harder. SKILL!

'Four times powerlifting world record holder Dr. Judd Biasiotto set up a bench in his kitchen, got in the habit of hitting it every time he was in the area and put up a 319BP @ 132!'

strivin for more
04-03-09, 8:28 pm
everyone seems to be a lot more receptive on this topic now that you have some hard copy testimonies/instruction. i personally dont believe in this type of training, but none the less its very interesting.

redskin 344
04-03-09, 8:33 pm
everyone seems to be a lot more receptive on this topic now that you have some hard copy testimonies/instruction. i personally dont believe in this type of training, but none the less its very interesting.

sorry man, believe it. it works.

If you want to you can try it out for a week or 2 to get an experience.

mark
04-04-09, 2:09 am
http://trainingdimensions.net/SOS/SOS%202007/Grease%20the%20Groove%20for%20Strength.pdf This article sums up what GTG is all about-SYNAPTIC FACILITATION. You do so many sets in the week that your muscles become superconductors from the messages sent from your brain and your muscles tense harder. SKILL!

'Four times powerlifting world record holder Dr. Judd Biasiotto set up a bench in his kitchen, got in the habit of hitting it every time he was in the area and put up a 319BP @ 132!'


There's more than one way to cause this adaptive response though. This is not the only way.
For example, Westside Barbell does this using the Dynamic Effort Method. The Shock Method (also referred to as Plyrometrics) cause the same effect, but more so in the Speed-Strength realm than in the Strength-Speed realm.
Different strokes for different folks, however, before you go around telling people to just bench heavy every day, you need to put it context of intensities per workout, average intensity per week, volume per workout, average volume per week, and set rep schemes. The method that Pavel likes does work, HOWEVER, there is A LOT more than what you saying. PLEASE educate yourself more before going around making statements that are just partial truths and have the ability to cause major damage if followed as you suggest.

IRBS
04-04-09, 8:42 am
sorry man, believe it. it works.

If you want to you can try it out for a week or 2 to get an experience.
I still would like for you to tell me how this has worked so well for you personally that you believe in it so much. You have given no personal results at all on this program, simply what you have read.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I just don't understand why you believe in this so much other than it looks good to you on paper and based on what other people have done with similar programs.

You say to "believe it, it works" yet it has not "worked" for you yet. (135x8 strict press does not count by th way). You have lead me to believe that you do not even train on a consisten basis, why should people take your advice?

The russian model generally has to be followed very specifically to work and is not really a guessing game either. Your programming has to be set up and thought out.

Again, not trying to be a jerk here, I just don't understand your belief in the system.

redskin 344
04-04-09, 8:44 am
There's more than one way to cause this adaptive response though. This is not the only way.
For example, Westside Barbell does this using the Dynamic Effort Method. The Shock Method (also referred to as Plyrometrics) cause the same effect, but more so in the Speed-Strength realm than in the Strength-Speed realm.
Different strokes for different folks, however, before you go around telling people to just bench heavy every day, you need to put it context of intensities per workout, average intensity per week, volume per workout, average volume per week, and set rep schemes. The method that Pavel likes does work, HOWEVER, there is A LOT more than what you saying. PLEASE educate yourself more before going around making statements that are just partial truths and have the ability to cause major damage if followed as you suggest.

Sorry that was my bad. This way is not the ONLY way of making rapid strength gains. Programs like 5x5 work great.

I am just trying to prove that strength IS a skill. In a study, people were told to simply imagine tensing their biceps harder for a whole month without lifting any weights and their curlling strength increased by 13%. That has to prove something.

Increasing muscle size and practicing tensing muscles harder through CNS nerve force are 2 ways for great strength gains.

MrMonday
04-04-09, 1:13 pm
redskin, what kind of REAL progress have you been making like this?

From what I have seen based on your posts here, you are listening to all the wrong sources and getting sucked in by sales pitches and flashy controversial BS. It looks like you're on the road to failure and zero progress.

So I ask again, what are your actual RESULTS?

mark
04-04-09, 1:14 pm
Sorry that was my bad. This way is not the ONLY way of making rapid strength gains. Programs like 5x5 work great.

I am just trying to prove that strength IS a skill. In a study, people were told to simply imagine tensing their biceps harder for a whole month without lifting any weights and their curlling strength increased by 13%. That has to prove something.

Increasing muscle size and practicing tensing muscles harder through CNS nerve force are 2 ways for great strength gains.


And i can do nothing but get drunk every night for a week, go in, and squat an all time PR. Does that mean getting drunk every night is the key to getting strong, nope...

There's too many unanswered questions in that study, such as what was their training like before hand.... Perhaps they just needed a long break in order to fully recover and had got tested the max day of te super compensation period. Unless you can find something in that study specifically rules out that theory.

Tanth
04-04-09, 7:31 pm
this seems way to much like a pseudo-science to me. Just for me personally I enjoy my workouts I enjoy a 45 minute to hour long adrenaline rush 4-5 times a week, If im only allowed to perform 1 rep every couple of hours, its like saying im allowed to fuck Jennifer Lopez but can only get one thrust every couple hours. I'd rather perform slightly under the maximum potential for strength gain (assuming Redskins approach holds water which I doubt) then perform such a boring monotonous routine. I'm down for more work to get my goals not less.

Jonisocool
04-05-09, 2:55 am
Sorry that was my bad. This way is not the ONLY way of making rapid strength gains. Programs like 5x5 work great.

I am just trying to prove that strength IS a skill. In a study, people were told to simply imagine tensing their biceps harder for a whole month without lifting any weights and their curlling strength increased by 13%. That has to prove something.

Increasing muscle size and practicing tensing muscles harder through CNS nerve force are 2 ways for great strength gains.

My dad's a psychologist proffessor and was telling me about this study a group of psychologist did. I dont remember the details of it too much, but it was similar to what you're describing. They took a few volunteer's and trained their minds/brain wave patterns or something, and they had performed a better on paper in some lifts that they had tried pervious(not too sure of all of the variables in this study). It was a small marginal increase, but none the less there.

I havent taken the time to read all of your sources yet, but I'll call my dad sometime to ask him about the study, and read your sources tomorrow. Sounds interesting to me. I'll hear anything out once.

paintrain69
04-05-09, 7:28 pm
awesome post. very interesting. might have to start this practice possibly.

redskin 344
04-05-09, 8:02 pm
awesome post. very interesting. might have to start this practice possibly.

Just try it for a week or even better, 2 weeks and please tell me the progress

paintrain69
04-05-09, 8:41 pm
k will do redskin 344...ill start it this week

redskin 344
04-06-09, 1:51 pm
k will do redskin 344...ill start it this week

Appreciated. I can tell you the details to what you need to do.

-Pick an exercise you like and use around 80%1RM
-do as many sets of 1-3 reps throughout the week without getting fatigued/sore
-Always train while you are fresh. NEVER train fatigued/sore
-Build up the intensity and frequency of training slowly as you feel you are getting stronger and the weight feels a little lighter
-Strict form!
-I you want to, do different variations of the chosen exercise and vary the intensity/reps

redskin 344
04-06-09, 3:06 pm
would you guys agree with this?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler23.htm

GJN5002
04-06-09, 3:53 pm
I agree there is definately some skill in strenght. Practicing a lift makes you more efficient at it juast as you do any task over and over you get better at it. But what is off about lifting is that making a muscle grow requires it to be less efficient in handling the load and therfore forced to "grow" in order to cope with moving the said load. So strictly as a means of increasing power output, I think it could be a skill, but bodybuilding is always much trickier than that.

Also, what is there to be said about people who are just brutally strong. I have a friend who is brutally strong. He works as a plumber and Ive seen him carrying around things I would go get two other guys to help me with, but get him i the gym and cant bench 135 10 times because his form. So I guess it contradicts itself in a sense, in the real workd strenght is not a skill but as far as lifting goes it is.

redskin 344
04-06-09, 10:59 pm
I agree there is definately some skill in strenght. Practicing a lift makes you more efficient at it juast as you do any task over and over you get better at it. But what is off about lifting is that making a muscle grow requires it to be less efficient in handling the load and therfore forced to "grow" in order to cope with moving the said load. So strictly as a means of increasing power output, I think it could be a skill, but bodybuilding is always much trickier than that.

Also, what is there to be said about people who are just brutally strong. I have a friend who is brutally strong. He works as a plumber and Ive seen him carrying around things I would go get two other guys to help me with, but get him i the gym and cant bench 135 10 times because his form. So I guess it contradicts itself in a sense, in the real workd strenght is not a skill but as far as lifting goes it is.

good to hear

what I am talking about is synaptic faciliation. From what I know, you usually use around 20-30% of your muscle fibers when lifting or working. If you practiced strength with frequent training, your mind would be adapted to providing the muscles with nerve force so more muscle fibers would be used meaning more strength.

Lunchead
04-07-09, 10:27 am
strength cannot be a skill, lifting something heavy is a skill and getting your muscles stronger or bigger is a skill, but not strength. the two week workout that you suggest ppl should try would most likely make someone stronger, but only because their muscles must now adapt to a new workout, this kind of workout isnt likely to have long term benefits for drug free athletes.
still waiting for some figures on how this type of training benefitted you...

redskin 344
04-07-09, 10:30 am
strength cannot be a skill, lifting something heavy is a skill and getting your muscles stronger or bigger is a skill, but not strength. the two week workout that you suggest ppl should try would most likely make someone stronger, but only because their muscles must now adapt to a new workout, this kind of workout isnt likely to have long term benefits for drug free athletes.
still waiting for some figures on how this type of training benefitted you...

this program i mentioned is a 'mind over muscle' thing. You train your CNS to give your muscles a stronger command to contract harder. It is not designed to increase muscle mass.

KiNgKoNgPrOnGeD
04-07-09, 10:45 am
I'm just going to throw in my short .2 cents on this. It's a very interesting topic and granted it would prolly work for the more novice lifters who are just starting out. BUT, for the more seasoned lifters and those who have developed their strength for years, I think i can speak for all of them when I say that I could not deadlift 565 for multiple sets of 1-3 reps everyday of the week and not beat myself up. Nor with anyone doing any lift in the 400+ range. I find it hard to even imagine that a drug-free lifter could recover so fast to do such heavy lifting everyday of the week. Reguardless if it's only 1-3 reps of 80% of your max or more, there is no miracle supplement to make your CNS day in and day out 100%.

IRBS
04-07-09, 10:57 am
this program i mentioned is a 'mind over muscle' thing. You train your CNS to give your muscles a stronger command to contract harder. It is not designed to increase muscle mass.

I still would like to hear what results you have had personally and why you believe in this so much. You have been asked several times, but still haven't answered. Just curious.

GJN5002
04-07-09, 12:22 pm
I'm just going to throw in my short .2 cents on this. It's a very interesting topic and granted it would prolly work for the more novice lifters who are just starting out. BUT, for the more seasoned lifters and those who have developed their strength for years, I think i can speak for all of them when I say that I could not deadlift 565 for multiple sets of 1-3 reps everyday of the week and not beat myself up. Nor with anyone doing any lift in the 400+ range. I find it hard to even imagine that a drug-free lifter could recover so fast to do such heavy lifting everyday of the week. Reguardless if it's only 1-3 reps of 80% of your max or more, there is no miracle supplement to make your CNS day in and day out 100%.

I agree, the load you are using will dictate a lot. Also, Ive heard there are some CNS recovery supps in the works from a few companies.


I still would like to hear what results you have had personally and why you believe in this so much. You have been asked several times, but still haven't answered. Just curious.

X 2 The theory makes sense to a degree but who cares if it doesnt give real world results.