So just how big can you get naturally?

[xb24]

I got a workout in with a training partner today, and got into a locker room conversation. Actually it was a more of an argument.

He was claiming that, no matter how many calories, how strict your are to this discipline, natural bodybuilders will not have a physique of 70's era bodybuilder.

I took the opposite side of the argument, not that the sky was the limit but that it is pretty endless. Obviously genetics play factors, but I stated what I had read ie: Coleman managed to get his pro-card without taking steriods etc. Then commented on some guys in the NFL who have absolutely massive size and shape, and they are drug tested.

But at the peak of the argument he always countered with "But how do you know for certain?" "Ronnie is 1 freak, and NFLers could using Growth hormone or something of that kind". And he pretty much had me there because A) i've never used, and am not as big as I want to achieve. And B) I just don't know for sure.

Anyways brothers hit up your inputs, I doubt theres anything that can truly squash the argument, but hopefully give more cannon fodder for the next time this subject is brought up. Regardless this is the lifestyle I enjoy and I'll keep struggling in this game, shooting for the never ending limitations.

[randomality]

why bother arguing?

would you like to know your limit so you can try and reach it and have nothing else to push for? or would you rather not know so you can push and grow without any mental limitations? i'd opt for the latter and push my genetics as far as i can.

the thing is, yeah... there is a limit. BUT, it's individualized. that means that you won't know your limit unless you just keep growing until you stop. and trust me... that'll be YEARS down the line... and we're not even taking into account muscle maturity, density, and other factors. shoot... troy alves had 17 inch arms in high school... without even lifting! talk about genetics!

so to this... i say...

SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GROW!!! (no offense)

now get to it, and don't bother arguing because chances are, they're not gonna listen to you anyhow. and even if you do reach that look of 70's era bodybuilder naturally, he'll accuse you of doing AAS. there's no winning with these people. i get accused of doing AAS and i'm 5'10", 185, and currently 5% because i'm getting ready for a show. people's mentality is this: cut muscles=juice. people think brad pitt juiced for the movie Troy... and i know tons of people that are way bigger than him that are natural.

[SDR]

Would like to see some input from the more experienced fellas' too....always an intruiging discussion, always nice to have hope in being natural.

[Bam Bam]

IMO you can get pretty big naturally. Genetics, diet, training, sleep and effective supplementation can get you a loooong way. There are some monsters out there that are completely natural. As far as anabolics go they are similar to supplements in the sense that not everyone reacts the same way to them. Some will get huge, some will not. As far as the argument goes I dont see how either of you can win this one. There are too many what ifs, how do you know for sures, and things of that nature to really end it for either side. All you can do is work with what you got physique wise and let that be it.

[darkside64]

dude it is simple eat large train large be large. FyI drug testing is a joke. I had a friend that played football in a D1 school. His coach gave him juice. If you are interested in this subject I would really encourage you to do research, because the media and people will try to play off things that are absolutely ridiculous.

[peterpyper]

that guy prob got no motivation at all,and dont know how to work out hard and dont even know how to train,so he look the same all yr round with no results,even if they use steriods they still gotta work hard on it shit,i know ppl that was on juice and they didnt know how to train and they think pushing 175 is alot of weight on juice wow lol

[xb24]

why bother arguing?
SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GROW!!! (no offense)


None taken bro.
I pay my dues.

Just wanted to share this topic with others see what they had to say. But I'm pretty sure I was right in that argument now =)

I had looked into Natural Bodybuilding websites before but was really unimpressed, this was probably about 2 years ago. I think I was on a Canadian website. But after just looking again now i'd say some of these monsters, are damn close if not in as good of shape as a 70's era BB.

Have a look for yourself Natural Olympia pics:
http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?p=28012#post28012

[ct italian 1]

pro bodybuilders today are nothing like they were in the 70's. yes, juice is used both today and was back then but now the amount of chemical mixing is ridiculous (no offense to anyone who does chose to stack AAS). the style of physique is totally diff. going from "large, lean mean to superhuman monsters" I think with today's knowledge in nutrition, training and supplementation, one can easily achieve a similar physique to 70s bodybuilders naturally. It's all in the genetics, hardwork and dedication.

[waugie14]

Man look up Chet Yorton. One of the people to ever beat Arnold. Never used drugs. He's an awesome guy too. He is still jacked in his late 60's.

[TheNaturalG]

one can easily achieve a similar physique to 70s bodybuilders naturally. It's all in the genetics, hardwork and dedication.

You do know that Arnold, Lou Ferigno, and Franco Columbo are 70's bodybuilders right? Just checking because even with steroids I did not know it was easy to get their bodies just because of the advances in training and nutrition.

[Kiwi129]

I think by '70s era bodybuilders he's talking more of a Frank Zane type of deal... which... to be honest with you, I still wouldn't have a problem with hehe. I think it's damn near impossible to reach IFBB size without freak genetics AND some "help" to say the least. It's naive to believe otherwise. Why would the freaks, who already grow faster than 99% of us, need "help" to get that big if they could do it naturally. So unless you're like the one man on the planet with genetics that can get you like that naturally... the sky isn't the limit.

[LurkingBeast]

Agreed with Randomality! F-that. I don't give a damn about what the limits are . . . . I know what my limits are when I push myself 100% and do my absolute best. Then add on 30+ years of that and THEN I'll know what is possible with el' Natural. Until then, you ARE limitless! And only limited to what you limit yourself to!

[Kiwi129]

That's a really good mindset to have and will keep you motivated for sure. Just keep in the back of your head what the limits of the human BODY are. No matter how much your mind/drive want to, you can't will your body to a 270 lb., 2% bodyfat machine... sorry.

[Achilles]

I have a pic of Frank Zane on my Gym wall .. thats EXACTLY how I WILL look .. eventually .. then I will go on to Win Mr. West Virginia

[hjayss]

You do know that Arnold, Lou Ferigno, and Franco Columbo are 70's bodybuilders right? Just checking because even with steroids I did not know it was easy to get their bodies just because of the advances in training and nutrition.

I am on this one brothers I know a few guys that are just naturally big guys. There is a guy in security where I work this guy has like 20 inch arms and he is in his foourties and he has not lifted in years he is a big and he will go running and stuff like that, but just think if he were to get back into lifting he would be massive and he is natural that is my dog so I know.

[Arbalest]

I have a pic of Frank Zane on my Gym wall .. thats EXACTLY how I WILL look .. eventually .. then I will go on to Win Mr. West Virginia

Me too! Thats who's on my wall =)

[randomality]

you can't will your body to a 270 lb., 2% bodyfat machine... sorry.

hehe, that may be true. but it sure as hell won't stop me from trying!

[Shark]

Anyone who bitches and whines that anything is impossible for anyone to do without steroids is just making fucking excuses. I have nothing against those who choose to juice. I choose not to, because I want to know I did the work. But if you want to juice, all the power to you.

I grew up with my training partner. His father is a freakin toothpick and his mother is a BIG lady. He has always struggled with a small weight problem. Well he chooses to juice, and though yes, he is a HELL of a lot more cut than me and has lost a lot of weight, the fact remains that he chose to juice to try to keep pace with me, but still can't. Juicing allows him to get more lean and get stronger, but I dwarve him when it comes to muscle growth. He stopped growing about 6 months ago.

As far as wondering which pro's do or don't juice, we can never know because we are not them. Making excuses to not do something because someone else might do it different is bullshit.

Just my two cents. Don't mean to offend anyone.

[IRN-NML]

How big can you get naturally? Genetics won't change.

How big is your income to shop for groceries and supps and your cart look like you're feeding four or six instead of one?

How big is your mouth to shovel all that food down and you've forgotten how to feel hungry? Even cutting, you're still eating; just a far less interesting menu.

How big and long lasting is your desire for the iron; paying in all kinds of ways to physically and mentally sweat and suffer say six to ten hours a week, week and month and year after year?

It isn't family, work, school, friends. It's Family, iron, work, iron, school, iron, iron, friends & no, the last ones aren't out of order.

All that and still you probably won't be on the cover of a muscle mag (you might be inside though). It goes back to genetics but still, everything else will be worth it if you DO want it.

Reading many of the Animal essays; seems many of the guys have chosen the iron life and not always have the girl, the nice car, fancy digs but they have the iron and wear the results 24/7.

Your natural? Then you don't give a rats ass what a juicer can or cannot do. You MYOB and get'er done your own way.

How big do you want it? How bad do you want it?

Just my 2cents.

[Hollow1]

How big can you get naturally? Genetics won't change.

How big is your income to shop for groceries and supps and your cart look like you're feeding four or six instead of one?

How big is your mouth to shovel all that food down and you've forgotten how to feel hungry? Even cutting, you're still eating; just a far less interesting menu.

How big and long lasting is your desire for the iron; paying in all kinds of ways to physically and mentally sweat and suffer say six to ten hours a week, week and month and year after year?

It isn't family, work, school, friends. It's Family, iron, work, iron, school, iron, iron, friends & no, the last ones aren't out of order.

All that and still you probably won't be on the cover of a muscle mag (you might be inside though). It goes back to genetics but still, everything else will be worth it if you DO want it.

Reading many of the Animal essays; seems many of the guys have chosen the iron life and not always have the girl, the nice car, fancy digs but they have the iron and wear the results 24/7.

Your natural? Then you don't give a rats ass what a juicer can or cannot do. You MYOB and get'er done your own way.

How big do you want it? How bad do you want it?

Just my 2cents.

Good one IRN-NML.
When you set limits for yourself it just an excuse not to try harder.

[dragondad]

My workout partner (Billy) I watched lift for over a year and did not work out w/him. I heard over and over, even from some of his family, he's on the juice. He was 5'8",140lbs in high school and now at age 37 he's 180lbs and about 10% bf. He is a big, "little" guy. He's been lifting for 20yrs. Fuck yea he's big, (for his frame size.) I'm 38 and started at 6', 240lbs, dropped to 190lbs, now I'm back to 215lbs and I do have a large frame.(built for size I guess) Now after a year, I'm getting, "he's on the juice, him and Billy." I've had fantastic gains, ALL Natural. Diet, Dedication, the right sups (ANIMAL all the way) Bottom line, your frame, your diet, your dedication, will determine "just how big you can get naturally" All those people who say, "He's on the juice", "he's on roids", they have no fucking clue what it takes or who WE are as Animals! Be YOU and fuck everyone else. Just had this discussion with someone talking shit behind my back last week in the gym. "There's no way he is getting that big naturally." Almost came to blows. No sense in arguing anymore. Nothing to prove to anyone but myself. Get out of my face, shut the fuck up and train!

Peace

[Guardian]

You do know that Arnold, Lou Ferigno, and Franco Columbo are 70's bodybuilders right? Just checking because even with steroids I did not know it was easy to get their bodies just because of the advances in training and nutrition.

Right on, talkin about reality check for natural bodybuilders.

For me, i can look at the physique of an elite natural bb'er from a reputable natural organizations (who i think is very strict about monitoring and drug testing their athletes). That's the best i can think of about how big natural bodybuilders can be. It's also very genetic dependant.

[Torque757]

Hey,

Lets get realistic here almost every pro bodybuilder uses steroids because if

Danny

There is no "almost", all of them do.

[speedster00]

My workout partner (Billy) I watched lift for over a year and did not work out w/him. I heard over and over, even from some of his family, he's on the juice. He was 5'8",140lbs in high school and now at age 37 he's 180lbs and about 10% bf. He is a big, "little" guy. He's been lifting for 20yrs. Fuck yea he's big, (for his frame size.) I'm 38 and started at 6', 240lbs, dropped to 190lbs, now I'm back to 215lbs and I do have a large frame.(built for size I guess) Now after a year, I'm getting, "he's on the juice, him and Billy." I've had fantastic gains, ALL Natural. Diet, Dedication, the right sups (ANIMAL all the way) Bottom line, your frame, your diet, your dedication, will determine "just how big you can get naturally" All those people who say, "He's on the juice", "he's on roids", they have no fucking clue what it takes or who WE are as Animals! Be YOU and fuck everyone else. Just had this discussion with someone talking shit behind my back last week in the gym. "There's no way he is getting that big naturally." Almost came to blows. No sense in arguing anymore. Nothing to prove to anyone but myself. Get out of my face, shut the fuck up and train!

Peace

I know what you mean bro. I'm 5'6 nealry 190 and a small frame. People look at me funny in the gym and I'm not that big. Just eat all the time and stay dedicated. My best friend is my height but 220lb. 600lb+ dead and squat. 400lb bench. He is all natural. Granted he is 35 so he has a few years on me.

[CAPO190]

you can get as big as your genetics will take you. but when you do reach your genetic limit, you will be huge. but that is no easy feat.

and yes you can get a bodybuilding physique naturally.

[Kiwi129]

No, you cannot look like the pros in Mr. Olympia naturally. You're being naive.

[Alivewhenimdead]

there is a limit to what you can achieve naturally..otherwise steroids would never have been developed...

I have great respect for the dedication, commitment, countless hours in the house of iron, spartan diets, and strong will power of the pros...But on the matter of them taking steroid...I do believe pretty much all pros do. Sorry Ronnie, i doubt you were clean for 8 years in a row.

[BIG45s]

I do believe that natural bodybuilders can attain a pyshique of say a Zane. But even with that I will not say, "I will never use gear." It's an option and under the right supervision it can be an effective choice. In the end most of the guys at the top of the Mr. Olympia stage will still be the biggest of the big even if the gear is pulled out of the equation. Guys like Yates, Coleman, and Haney and the men who finished behind them busted their asses to get to the top. They were blessed with raw genetics and a tremendous desire that is matched by their unshaken discipline. They may have chosen the gear route but their dedication and intensity is no less than those of us who choose to be natural.


Peace


BIG45s

[Kiwi129]

Absolutely. In no way was I discrediting any pro bodybuilder out there. I'm just trying to convey that looking like them naturally is a very very naive thing to believe.

[sjchris408]

Let me state first that I believe that almost all Mr. Olympia level bodybuilders use juice. Im not trying to be negative or discredit them, they work their god damn asses off to get that physique. Its not like the juice did it for them, even if they stopped taking it theyd still be huge. But at the end of the day you've gotta be realistic, you guys have seen the 2006 Mr. Olympia pictures, you just can't get like Jay or Ronnie without steroids, the human body isn't capable of it. Literally, those guys are freaks of nature, thats why we get so pumped up and excited when we see them. Again, thats not to take away anything away from these guys, I respect the hell out of them, I'm just giving my honest opinion.

[conan75]

I have a pic of Frank Zane on my Gym wall .. thats EXACTLY how I WILL look .. eventually .. then I will go on to Win Mr. West Virginia

You relize that he was one of the first to use thyroid hormones right???

[conan75]

I do believe that natural bodybuilders can attain a pyshique of say a Zane. But even with that I will not say, "I will never use gear."
BIG45s

Well, naturally i can weight around 210 lbs....i weigh in now at 255 lbs and have a 36 inch waist. Naturally, i can eat about 3k calories a day max and not get fat...i eat 5k a day now....

From my experience, it is safe to say that there are no such thing as a NATURAL pro bodybuilder....ronnie became pro weighing 235 lbs...then comes back a year after his first olympia and weighed in at 265 lbs and wins...THEN comes in a year later at 280-285....come on guys....

[tbone]

my .02 says that there is no such thing as a 'genetic limit.' i think you can get to the point where you slow way down in terms of building muscle, but i don't think your body says one day, "i'm done growing for good." ya know what i mean? i don't think there is a finite 'limit.' it's all relative.

[BigTruck]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokoritel
Hey,

Lets get realistic here almost every pro bodybuilder uses steroids because if

Danny

There is no "almost", all of them do.

see now -- i don't like seeing lines like this. its comforting to think that most folks out there do work hard to get what they have achieved. granted, there is still a good amount of work involved in the process to get that 'pro bodybuilder' look -- but i could have done without this line.

honestly though, i'm not complaining. its one of those things that everyone knows about but that nobody talks about. maybe on some level we all think that if don't talk about it out loud, it isnt really out there. and why is that? why such a taboo on juice? if it was so good -- wouldnt we talk about it all the time?

enough on that -- i'm off to read some more posts.

lots of good thoughts in here. i enjoy the wide range of conversational topics and the ideas folks bring to the table.

until next time...

[bobbyj654]

you can get as big as your genetics will take you. but when you do reach your genetic limit, you will be huge. but that is no easy feat.

and yes you can get a bodybuilding physique naturally.

No, its just not possible, you cannot get a phyisque like that natrually, it is just not possible, like someone said earlier, you cannot will your body to a 270 lb 2% bodyfat machine, your body is a wonderful thing, but that is just ridicolous, it is so unconventional to be like that its almost wrong, juicing is the only way my man
Now, you can get into cover model shape natrually, just not like Arnold, Ronnie, or anyone that freakish

[dbbeast]

like most people have been saying, you can get as big as YOUR bod will allow. for most people it's pretty big but it takes a long time. i have had many points alont the way where i thought i had reached my peak but it just took some diet tweaking and some creative training and i was able to push through it. i do believe u can develop quite a good physique naturally through good training and diet

[Flash419]

I've working out either at a gym or at home doing push-ups, bench dips, etc for over 24 years. Started like most did with my friends in school, quickly growing out of that creaky little bench, and those plastic covered weights. Moved on to a gym and worked out there most of high school, and probably 2 or 3 years after. Started high school at 5'11" and 135 pounds, and graduated at 6' and 185#. By the time I was 21 I was up to #210 or so. Then due to work, family, etc.. I stopped going to the gym but would do pushups, bench dips, etc 3 times a week (doing 300-400 pushups) at home. This went on until I was 34, my weight at that time was 240, with a some extra weight around the middle, but by no means a fatty. Now I've been back in a gym for the past 3 years, my weight is up to 285, I'm much leaner then I was 3 years ago, and alot stronger. All of this was done with Animal Paks, protein, creatine, and the occasional M-Stak, Stak 2, etc... In other words NO steriods or any other illegal help.

I guess my point is, that getting big is obtainable without using drugs, but takes much longer. Since I have been back at it hard, I have put on basically 10-12 pounds a year, naturally. I don't have the hard dense look of a IFBB pro, and doubt I ever will. And I think that is the major factor in what steroids can do for you. We all know or have seen really big guys, but the difference between natural muscle and that steriod look is the dense muscle, low body fat look that drugs allow you to have. I'm not putting down the guys who use drugs, that is a decision we all have to make at some point in this journey. And I don't believe all the media hype about all the evils of steriods. They are a tool, like any other, it can be used and it can be abused.

The thing to think about for those making the decision to use or not is this. Do I really need them? Is getting bigger going to help me in my career (IFBB pro bodybuilder, NFL football player, etc), or is this just something I want to take so I don't have to wait, don't have to spend years training, just to get it now. Everyone wants that quick fix, but remember 'Easy come, Easy go'..

Anyway.. just my two cents...

[BIGGEST_THE_BEST]

The Most Shocking Bodybuilding Interview Ever (IRONMAN, February '97)
by Steve Holman

Warning:This is an extremely controversial interview. To be honest, we almost decided not to print it; however, because IRONMAN has always been an open forum, going to great lengths to tell the whole truth, we felt it was our responsibility to the sport and to you, the reader, to allow this athlete to speak his mind

It took a lot of courage for this man to stand up and tell it like it is, and we are keeping him anonymous to protect his status as a professional bodybuilder. We're inserting [blanks] in place of names to help protect his identity-no process of elimination to narrow down the field-and also in place of drug names, so drug-using bodybuilders don't get any inadvertent "help" with their drug programs

Keep in mind that we paid this man nothing because we feel money can only corrupt the information. When people are paid a high sum, they feel as if they have to give the interviewer his or her money's worth, and that can result in exaggeration

As you read this, remember that this athlete came to us because, like us, he loves bodybuilding and wants to see it prosper, not die a painful drug-induced death

Fasten your seatbelts. This dose of reality is going to open your eyes like nothing ever printed in this or any other bodybuilding magazine.

IM: You want to get some things off your chest. You have the bodybuilding world's ear. What is it you want to talk about?
BB: Well, you know, most of the things nobody wants to talk about. I want to let everybody know how it really is.

IM: How it is with the drugs?
BB: Damn right!

IM: You're having to take too many, correct?
BB: Way too many, man.

IM: What kind of drug bill are we talking about?
BB: Well, growth hormone alone costs you $30,000 a year.

IM: Good lord!
BB: And steroids, that's not a really big problem. I use a lot, but you can get it cheap. Mostly you gotta pay people to tell you how to use them. The growth hormone, IGF-IÉ.

IM: And just the thought of putting all that in your body all at one time-that's gotta take its toll on you mentally too.
BB: Well, I don't mind a little bit, because I do like big arms, big back, big chest and legs and everything. But when it comes to the point where I'm as big as I want to get-

IM: They tell you that you have to get bigger, right?
BB: Yeah, I don't have a choice. I'm gonna be bigger. Next year you're going to see me 24 pounds heavier.You know it's the whole mind-set that you gotta get bigger and sacrifice your shape. I may not like the way my back looks. I mean, I've got improvements to make, obviously. But those things come with time. Maturing into a physique is nice, but they want a monster.

IM: Do you think it can ever stop? I mean, if people keep getting bigger, what's going to happen to the sport?
BB: Well, the sport is already-

IM: Out of control?
BB: Yeah. It's an underground sport. It's [a cult that] likes to see the freaky mass monsters....They really don't care. They just say, Whatever it takes to do that, that's what we want to see. But I think a lot of people want to see something that's somewhat attainable.

IM: Do you think the size of the competitors has caused the people to be a little blast about it all? Like: Well, they're just going to have to do what it takes. We don't care; if they die, they die. We want to see 'em bigger, and we want to see 'em better.
BB: That's right. They want us to do it, and the judges want to see something bigger. In order for us to make a living and live our dreams, we gotta do whatever it takes, you know? You got guys like [blank, a bodybuilding columnist for another magazine] saying, "Well, nobody's making you." I guess nobody is, but a lot of us [have] this dream of being the best of the built.

IM: Absolutely. And it's a performance thing too. It's gratifying to be on stage. What do you think is a solution here? Do you think there is one at this point?
BB: Well, it's hard to say. Once you've seen extreme physique development, how are you going to train the eye of the audience to accept something less? You can practically see [some of these guys'] lungs when they do rear lat spreads. You just gotta accept something less. By the way, before I go on, let me tell you right now, there's a lot of things in your hands.

IM: I understand. Your identity is completely confidential, I promise you that. We'll just say you're a top pro. That's all.
BB: Right. Okay. Ask anything.

IM: Do you think part of the solution is for the judges to start rewarding a more aesthetic physique?
BB: That would be the only way the sport would go into a positive direction. Like Bob Paris.

IM: Right, if Bob Paris came back. I think the problem is you have to have an eye for that type of physique, and the general public and most bodybuilding fans don't have it, so they look at size as the top criterion for victory.
BB: I think there's a certain presence, an aura to a really complete physique like Lee Labrada's, rather than someone who's just grotesque.

IM: Getting back to the whole drug thing, do you have to stay on the drugs year-round?
BB: Yes. I haven't gone off at all for years.

IM: You have to inject, what, three to four times a week?
BB: Every day.

IM: Every day you have to inject something into your body?
BB: Yeah. Every day. Let me go over my stack.[He rattles off a list of injectibles and orals that's so long, my jaw hits the desk.]

IM: This is just off-season?
BB: Yeah. And of course I like to use [blank] that blocks estrogen and also increases testosterone levels. Also [blank] four times a day in the off-season to allow me to eat more calories. I also take half a tablet of [blank], which works better synergistically with growth hormone. Six weeks or so out I start taking some [blank] to stop some of the gyno. I did have to have it removed a few years back, but it kind of flares up now and then.And I use [blank] to take some of the water out. And [every so often] I switch from the heavy androgens to the lighter anabolics, like [blank and blank], 300 milligrams every other day. Let's see, [blank], 200 milligrams a day. That helps you harden up your physique, increase your vascularity. I take some [blank], which helps me harden, and I keep my insulin the same and my growth hormone the same.

IM: Whew! Quite a laundry list!
BB: Well, you know there's also many other things, like [blank], which keeps my gonadal system up and [blank] to boost my testosteone to make sure I don't atrophy down there. Also, anti-estrogens and other compound factors to combat the many side effects that I get.

IM: Have you ever noticed any serious health problems that you think are related to this?
BB: I piss a lot of blood come contest time.

IM: But in the off-season you feel pretty decent, even though you're taking all that stuff?
BB: Well, recently I started getting blood tests every two months.

[BIGGEST_THE_BEST]

IM: How about cholesterol count, blood pressure and so forth? All that's pretty normal?
BB: No, everything is high. My blood pressure gets really high, and that must be watched, especially when I take stimulants.

IM: It sounds as if you're on pins and needles a lot of the time.
BB: If you gotta do it, you got no choice. You want to make a living in this sport, that's what you gotta do.

IM: Race cars keep going faster and faster and there are more crashes, but the drivers keep doing it, right? What do you think your total drug bill is for the year?
BB: About $60,000, but it's going to be higher next year. Just this last year I had to add [blank]. Right now it's the number-one bodybuilding "supplement" in the competition ring. All these guys you see getting bigger, it's that. No question. Two years ago...I don't want to take nothing from [blank], really nice guy, nice family man, but physiquewise he was flat as a pancake. Now he's bigger, 20 to 30 pounds heavier. It's all [from this stuff]. [Blank] is heavy on it. Of course, we all are. I'm scared shitless.

IM: Are you guys pretty frank with each other about what you're taking?
BB: Only with friends. I mean, I get questions in the gym all the time, and I tell them I take [a popular protein powder]! Yeah, we talk.

IM: You don't feel you need to keep secrets and maintain an edge?
BB: There are no secrets. There's one guy out there-I won't mention his name-he's a top pro who helps out the other pros with their [blank] 'cause we don't know how to do it, so we go to him. He helps us out.

IM: I know the old-timers say there's no camaraderie in the sport anymore.
BB: Oh, there's some. But the only thing we talk about is-

IM: Drugs and training.
BB: We don't talk about training, because most of the guys-

IM: All train alike?
BB: Well, yeah. We don't train that hard. [Most of the guys] are half asleep when they [work out].

IM: So it's mostly just the drugs. The top guys really don't have an inkling how to train without them. Do you think most of the top 10 guys are taking pretty much the same thing then?
BB: Yeah, they're all jabbing themselves just as much, but I think [winning] has to do with your estrogen levels and your normal testosterone levels, your receptor abilities and things like that. You know, it's a genetic thing. Some people are more susceptible to steroids. Five milligrams might hit me differently than it might hit you.

IM: I asked you this earlier, and I know you said you think that it's just all part of the game, but aren't you afraid that this will catch up with you later in life?
BB: I am. I don't think I'll be able to have children. My doctor told me my sperm count is way too low. And my thyroid [is blown out].

IM: Do you feel that the sport indirectly promotes the whole drug thing?
BB: Yeah, but then you have people saying that nobody makes us. But this is our childhood dream. This is something we want to do, and for the most part we don't have other jobs.

IM: Do you think this drug test they had at the Olympia was a step in the right direction?
BB: It was a step in the right direction for the sport and probably a step in the wrong direction for people's careers because I know four people who [should have] tested positive. But we can beat the drug tests. Next year if they want to get diuretics, that's fine. We'll use plasmics. It's fairly simple. There's always exotic steroids."Let's change some molecule on the 17th position, and it can't be detected." [Blank] still can't be detected.

IM: This is the most eye-opening interview I've ever had. I appreciate your opening up to me.
BB: You're welcome. It could be because I'm very low on carbohydrates.

IM: And you're pissed off.
BB: Yeah, you know the diuretic scene is very difficult. I'm back there with my I.V. bag and heart monitor. It's just the situation. You take a person and put him into a lab in a freak science experiment. Then you throw him on stage, and you take him off to pump blood back into him. Is that a sport?The training is pretty much beaten to death. In fact, your magazine for the natural athletes is what I recommend. Professional bodybuilding [is about] drugs. Of course, there's abuse in every professional sport-boxing, basketball, baseball, football.

IM: How long do you think you can keep at it? I mean at this pace?
BB: Well I've been on forÉoh God. I'll tell you right now, if anybody's going to die next, it's going to be [blank]. He's too old to be messing with [junk] like that. His pancreas I don't think is too good.There's a look that you get. I can see it. [Blank, a top pro] is very ill. I understand what he wants to do for the sport, and he can do some great things, but he's dying and every contest he loses is a blow to him. He's killing himself literally because he wants to make this sport better. Eventually he's either going to win the contest or he's going to die.

IM: He's really playing Russian roulette?
BB: Yeah, he was using [blank] before any of us. I prefer his look back [a few years]. He wasn't big but aesthetic-a pleasing physique. Something a kid would look at and say, Hey, I would like to look like that. Now he should be concentrating more on certain bodyparts, but instead his body is getting bigger, his stomach, his head, everything.

IM: It's a scary look. Yes, the body's getting bigger, but all the internal organs are getting large, bloated.
BB: They should have a contest for the biggest growth-hormone gut.

IM: Got anything else you want to get off your chest?
BB: Yeah, you know I have a hard time thinking because of all the things I'm on now. But they don't talk about how much drug [abuse] there is. And it's not just the steroids. We've got to use speed and stuff like that. We have to use a lot of diuretics, things that aren't too healthy, and they don't feel good. Lots of guys are using cocaine-not just because they like it, but it helps you get cut up, it helps you not eat.With drugs there's use and abuse. But at our level I feel we're getting exploited, you know? They pump us full of drugs...or we pump ourselves full of drugs to make ourselves look like freaks, and we get on stage and that's our job. But we don't get paid hardly anything. The guy who uses our pictures, the supplement companies, make all the money, and they don't give us nothing. If it wasn't for our picture, they wouldn't have nothing to promote.

IM: Yeah, and you gotta keep risking your life to try to make a few bucks winning a show.
BB: I'll tell you what: [Some] of the guys, like [blank], are gay prostitutes.

[BIGGEST_THE_BEST]

IM: Think so?
BB: I know so. That's how they can afford all those drugs. That's definite. Of course [certain people in] the gay community are going to walk up and say, Hey, we'll give you so much to have sex. That's just like a straight guy walking up to Cindy Crawford and saying it. But for us it's a way to make a good $10,000 a month. It helps with our drug bill and sometimes they just give us drugs for the act.

IM: When you think about it, you guys can't make much money.
BB: There's not much money in the contracts. Especially with the drugs, the living, the food. You have to sacrifice your-

IM: Integrity?
BB: Yeah, your integrity, your pride. It's all a sacrifice. The drugs, the prostitution. These guys don't want to do that. They have to look in the mirror. They know they're sacrificing what makes them a man.And all this crap you see about carb loading and sodium. Bunch of shit.

IM: So you don't think they actually do sodium loading? It's all just drugs?
BB: Precontest every once in a while you catch a guy in McDonald's or eating pizza. You can do that kind of thing-of course, in moderation.

IM: But you're a pretty heavy supplement user?
BB: I don't use supplements at all! No vitamins, nothing.IM: You don't think that vitamins and minerals would help protect you somewhat from all the drugs?BB: Yeah, but-

IM: You've got put your money where it's going to be the most effective, right? On drugs.
BB: Right. I'd like to see a $1 million prize [for a bodybuilding contest]. That's something else that would help the sport. If there's a decent amount of money in there, it would be something people would watch. Unfortunately, I think people want to see the freaks at this point. Really big mothers up there. It's like you said, you really can't go backwards. I guess you have to let [it] self-destruct and see what happens.

IM: I don't want to see any of you guys die.
BB: We will. I guarantee you. You're going to see lots of guys dying in the next few years.

IM: I hope the drug test is a step in the right direction, and maybe they'll start judging for more aesthetic physiques. If they did backtrack to more of the Bob Paris look, I think it would help.
BB: Is that ever going to happen?IM: How much longer do you think you're going to go on with it?BB: Till I reach my goal. Or it beats me.

IM: Have you ever experienced any kind of depression or rage?
BB: Oh, yeah. Beaten many peopleÉgot out of hand. I feel bad about that.

IM: Having all that coursing through your system has to do something to you mentally.
BB: Well, besides that, you feel a lump here, and you feel scared, and you don't know what's going on.

IM: Do you get checked by a doctor regularly?
BB: I get the blood tests, and he reads it. It's foreign to me. I just ask how much longer do I have to live, what am I doing wrong?

IM: But he doesn't do any MRIs on you? It's just basically a blood test?
BB: No. He checks my thyroid, sperm count. Of course, I'm never going to be able to have children.

IM: Perhaps some of this will reverse itself once you-
BB: No, I have irreversible damage.

IM: That's really sad.
BB: I think it happened last year. When I upped everything, I shut my thyroid down. And if I go off the [blank], I'm going to get fat. I'm going to stay on the stuff permanently. If I go off, I'm going to rebound. None of these guys go off. It's just nonstop. These guys do what it takes.Don't you see that they're exploiting us? They're selling us. They're pumping us up, putting us on stage, throwing us off, and they're collecting the money. And we're back there rolling around in death.In the process they will make money. Sell ourselves. Sell our souls, and we don't get much. And even if you take the drugs, it's no guarantee you're going to win. You have to have something going on there. But [the people who run this sport] say, Keep it going, keep it going. And watch their wallets getting bigger. They don't care.

IM: But you did say looking like that helps you with women?
BB: That makes it a little worthwhile, but I never had any problem with the bitches. I got plenty before. Now I'm bigger, so I get a lot more. But you also get the bad-that includes harassment from the homos.I want to say for the guys who want to take their physiques to a [higher level], weight training, eating right and exercising will help you achieve your goals. What's big to you may be small compared to a pro, but like I said, Lee Labrada will look huge to a lot of guys. So you can attain your goals, get bigger, get better with the women, look good. You may not win Mr. Olympia, but you can still have something to be proud of [without the drugs].[Competitive bodybuilding, for the most part] is all chemistry. It's chemical warfare. Andreas Munzer had something we never had. All those striations and [blank] drugs, but look what it did to him. He died by the sword. And [blank] pocketed everything Andreas ever did.We have to deal with the rat race and the counterfeit steroids. All these guys saying, Yeah, I fell down and broke my arm. That's not true. That's the dealer breaking their arms because they didn't pay for their shipment of growth hormone.

IM: You say you go to Mexico for a lot of this stuff?
BB: Yeah, I go to Mexico. The European tour is where most of us get our drugs.[Switches subjects again] You don't need drug testing. Just a Lee Labrada. It didn't take a ton [of drugs] to do that. Pick that, and there you go. All the other guys will have to trim down to look like that.

IM: Go for the aesthetic physique. That's one of the big steps they have to take. By the way, isn't there a drug that you can inject directly into the muscle to blow it up?
BB: Oh, yeah, [blank]. Use that for my peak on my biceps. [Blank] uses it everywhere-80 to 100 shots. Tell you right now it hurts like hell. But it's hard to predict. It may look good five days before the show, then it lumps out and you'll get guys with the real lumpy, weird-looking biceps.This whole sport is about being a bitch. You gotta be a bitch to pay your bills. You gotta be a bitch to win. That's what it's all about. Total exploitation. I'd like the athletes to make a little more money. All these magazines talk about how much Michael Jordan and Mike Tyson make. They don't talk about how much we make, 'cause it's disgraceful. What am I going to do? Sell pictures of myself?

IM: Do a lot of the guys sell drugs on the side?
BB: Oh, yeah. I've done that myself. Now it's a lot harder.

[BIGGEST_THE_BEST]

IM: So what else? Is there's anything you can think of that you're really pissed off about.
BB: Well, I'm pissed off that we have to use this amount of drugs. I was happier with my physique last year. [They want us] in the 270-pound range.

IM: Don't you think the magazines are a little at fault too?
BB: Yeah, they are. They don't print nothing about the drug regimen. They're selling fake dreams to kids: Take this protein powder, and you're going to look like that. And it ain't true. Drugs play a predominant role, and most of the [champions'] training articles lead to overtraining. You know that. And unless you're on steroids, you're going to end up unhappy and lose your dream.

IM: I guess it's a vicious cycle.
BB: The insulin's very dangerous. I'm feeling it right now. I'm getting real tired, headaches, weakness. I breathe hard. Not a good drug to take.

IM: What's the danger with the insulin? It's a hormone, so what's the big problem?
BB: You can die right there. I mean, there isn't one of us who hasn't been in shock. You really don't know.

IM: Have you ever had to go to the hospital because of it?
BB: I've been in the hospital a few times, yeah. They had to use half a bag of glucose intravenously to keep me going. I didn't have any glucose in my liver, because I did too much insulin. My brain was starved, and I was beginning to fall asleep, go into a coma. It's the most painful feeling you'll ever feel. During that time your mind's going nuts.What am I getting out of all this? A cover picture? That won't pay the bills. Maybe they should start giving back to the athletes instead of taking. If they're gonna make it where we have to be bigger, we should get something out of it. Golfers make more money than we do. I saw how much they make at these rodeos too. They collect $50,000 for riding some damn bull. They don't have to take drugs to do that.

IM: The danger's there for eight seconds, then they're out of there. You guys have danger all year long.
BB: Yeah it's dangerous.

IM: To say the least.

[xb24]

Quite the read there.
He mentions Labrada and Bob Paris as physiques that should be more glorified than the mass monsters. But at the same time i'd think both Paris a former top 12 at the olympia must have done some kind of steroid? Probably just bad examples.

[bobbyj654]

ya know what, that post just made me sick to my fukin stomach

i just lost all my respect for those who juice, ya know, its not right to be taking all those drugs, just to look like a freak, whats wrong with having 18 inch arms? i have no sympathy at all for these "pros", theyre not even pros, its like he said, its just chemical warfare. i now have more respect for president bush than any of the bodybuilders, except for Wrath, he's awesome, and all the animals.

but dude, why would you want to fuk yur life up like that, youre not gonna be able to have children, you have to constantly worry about your health, its just not worth it man. life is just not enjoyable at that point

if i offended anyone, i am NOT sorry, i knew people juiced, i just didnt know to what degree it was and how far it went

[spartan300]

pro bodybuilders today are nothing like they were in the 70's. yes, juice is used both today and was back then but now the amount of chemical mixing is ridiculous (no offense to anyone who does chose to stack AAS). the style of physique is totally diff. going from "large, lean mean to superhuman monsters" I think with today's knowledge in nutrition, training and supplementation, one can easily achieve a similar physique to 70s bodybuilders naturally. It's all in the genetics, hardwork and dedication.

EASILY?

[Mr.Totality]

I think that regardless of drugs, the major component is genetics and diet

[Testpolska]

To say you can become a professional bodybuilder without the use of drugs is just ignorant. Bodybuilding and gear useage go hand in hand.

Everyone is different. If you went completly drug free you MIGHT reach your natural limitations someday. But it would take an extremly long time to do so.

[Bam Bam]

ya know what, that post just made me sick to my fukin stomach

i just lost all my respect for those who juice, ya know, its not right to be taking all those drugs, just to look like a freak, whats wrong with having 18 inch arms? i have no sympathy at all for these "pros", theyre not even pros, its like he said, its just chemical warfare. i now have more respect for president bush than any of the bodybuilders, except for Wrath, he's awesome, and all the animals.

but dude, why would you want to fuk yur life up like that, youre not gonna be able to have children, you have to constantly worry about your health, its just not worth it man. life is just not enjoyable at that point

if i offended anyone, i am NOT sorry, i knew people juiced, i just didnt know to what degree it was and how far it went

Keep in mind that this guy is talking about steroid abuse. Not everyone on steroids is juicing at this level.

[wolf]

Quite the read there.
He mentions Labrada and Bob Paris as physiques that should be more glorified than the mass monsters. But at the same time i'd think both Paris a former top 12 at the olympia must have done some kind of steroid? Probably just bad examples.


Paris admitted to steroid use and his not wanting to take the risks that it entails anymore was one of the reasons he cited for leaving body building.

At least according to his book Gorilla Suit.

[bobbyj654]

Keep in mind that this guy is talking about steroid abuse. Not everyone on steroids is juicing at this level.

explain this further to me, i dont quite understand

is there a difference to juicing and steriods?

[sjchris408]

No, Im pretty sure steroids and juice are two ways of saying the same thing: any type of illegial performance enhancing drug. What he means is there are different types of steroids, some are more dangerous than others.

And for the record, BIGGEST_THE_BEST, thank you for that interview. I hope what the bb is saying isn't true, but I'm afraid it is. It is very depressing to me. One thing that hit me is the notion that the sport has become more about who can pump the most drugs into their system, not about who trains the most hardcore. And the bodybuilder is stuck in a situation where in order to continue making a living, he has to take more and more drugs.

[Bam Bam]

explain this further to me, i dont quite understand

is there a difference to juicing and steriods?

Nah Im just sayin that not everyone is abusing it like this guy is talkin about.

[Giant Killer]

what a great article! long, but good, hits you right where it hurts-in your common sense bone-and everyone knows, whether they like it or not, use or abuse, its killing your internals...

[ThickasabricK]

Look guys , i wanna say my opinion frankly , this forum is like my home because its the only place i feel understood.

Look , honestly , i HAVE tried steroids once . Yes i did grow , a little , you know why "a little" , because I DIDN'T EAT RIGHT AND TRAINED RIGHT , i ate like shit , your gonna laugh at this , i was only eating about 50 to 70 grms of protein a day , ya i know its fucking stupid . I only used them once , then i analysed and looked at myself , how i was , how i am right now , i am not perfect but i am much much better, although i have never ate more than 100 grms of protein a day , and i have some pretty decsent body , still not perfect . BUT , when i ate right , and ya i can eat a shitload of food , lots and lots of protein without even one supplement , i fucking blew up i said to myself "WTF???" everybody started telling me that i am on juice and that i am swelling up , i was literally changing from week to week so fast .

My point is this : you have a very long time before you reach your genetic potential anyway , so dont use juice when you are really young and pushing through , my opinion on IFBB pros using juice , you know something , i dont like them , the pros , they are not my ideals , but i look a machine and wrath ya even though most people say he is surely on juice i say no an hell no , nor he nor machine nor anyone on animal pak , fucking hell people theyve been training fucking strict for like more than 15 friggin years , i am pretty damn sure i can get big as machine or wrath in 15 years naturally .

but for ronnie victor etc cutler etc etc , ya they all use juice because they need it to get to those levels, the levels that are a bit extreme , but i rather have the body of wrath than of ronnie and thats what i am striving for . One thing is for sure i think , I personally believe that i have the genetics to become a pro without roids.

thanks for your time .
~SilverbacK~

[Toni69]

I totally see where you are going Thickasabrick, and I agree. I am no huge gal but I am bigger than the average gal, and stronger at that. A clean diet and loads of hard work helped me get to where I am now. Before I had a kid, I never trained other than PT in the military, and that was just loads of running and basic pushups, situps and stretching. As a teen, I messed around with aerobics and light lifting, but was a typical young girl in the gym..ga ga over the guys lifting instead! Yes, guilty as charged!

However, a strong, hard, well developed and shredded physique with thick chunky muscle..this can be achieved naturally! No doubt!

Yes, genetics and other factors will only take you so far in your gameplan, but I have learned just from every show I have done so far, including the prep for this one, that with alot of mindpower, discipline, pain, motivation, inspiration, dedication, proper diet and regime, consistency and most of all, time and patience, you can look like those guys and gals in the mags. Maybe not as heavy...maybe not 300+lbs solid, but those are pros, you cant compare really. We are just real people in the real world..BB is their job, it is their world!

Really great people can make us feel great, as our BB and Power guys and gals here at the forum do for us everyday. I even wonder if they realize how often people like myself think about them when training in the gym, and fighting for that next rep. I know I did the other day. I thought about G when doing squats. I had 8 reps with the 135 and I said G wouldnt quit now, would he..and went deeper for two more.

Anyway, I find it more fun to try and achieve the impossible!

[eblnyc]

I agree with toni! Human strength or potenial has no boundries! You have to push your self to the breaking point to see how far you can grow every time in the gym! Machine is the perfect example of this! He works out like every day could be his last!

[feelthepain12]

I don't think there is a limit to how big anybody can get naturally. I really don't. Juicing will get you damn big, but it won't help you exceed what you could've accomplished had you put in the time. It just speeds things up. As long as you keep eating and training and eating some more, I think the sky's the limit. Anyone can be as big as they wanna be, you just gotta put in the hours and you'll get there.

[king1]

My opinion is there is a limit to how big you can get naturally. Some people can be bigger than others. But im pretty sure juice takes you past those limits. If anyone actually gets to their absolute genetic limit for size (and being reasonably lean) they should be satisfied. Most people on AAS have never reached that limit. But i tihnk its safe to say the average person could never get to 300 pounds and being moderately lean without juice.

[ironshaolin]

that interview is disgusting. People: Don't they realize this is why bodybuilders in general are ostracised? Because of the behavior of the pros, it forces even all natural bodybuilders to be labeled juice heads. If what that pro was saying is true, and I wouldn't be surprised then I too believe the sport is on a downward spiral. Maybe it should. Saying the pros don't even train that hard? WTF!!!! Maybe after it crumbles in the dust of chemicals, out of the ashes it can rise up again, promoting HEALTH first, remember the name of the game is BODY BUILDING not BODY DESTROYING. Build your body with honor into something respectable and appreciable, not selling out to the machine and fucking up your life permanently just for the sake of walking around with 300lbs of muscle.

[BigAnt]

I got a workout in with a training partner today, and got into a locker room conversation. Actually it was a more of an argument.

He was claiming that, no matter how many calories, how strict your are to this discipline, natural bodybuilders will not have a physique of 70's era bodybuilder.

I took the opposite side of the argument, not that the sky was the limit but that it is pretty endless. Obviously genetics play factors, but I stated what I had read ie: Coleman managed to get his pro-card without taking steriods etc. Then commented on some guys in the NFL who have absolutely massive size and shape, and they are drug tested.

But at the peak of the argument he always countered with "But how do you know for certain?" "Ronnie is 1 freak, and NFLers could using Growth hormone or something of that kind". And he pretty much had me there because A) i've never used, and am not as big as I want to achieve. And B) I just don't know for sure.

Anyways brothers hit up your inputs, I doubt theres anything that can truly squash the argument, but hopefully give more cannon fodder for the next time this subject is brought up. Regardless this is the lifestyle I enjoy and I'll keep struggling in this game, shooting for the never ending limitations.


************************************************** ****************

Don't set limits...based on genetics (always #1) and your dedication-desire and discipline...YOU control it! (your size)

At the 2007 IFBB NY Pro, Kai Greene and Milton Holloway are both IFBB Pros are and are both NATURAL. I competed against both of them in the past...my genetics are not as half as good as theirs...but I do have some over-all vitctories under my belt (against non-natural bodybuilders)...not bad for a 40 year old Natural Pro who trains in a basement.

Kai and Milt are the best of the best when it comes to Natural bodubuilding. I do sometimes train with Milt, he trains with Big Al in DE. Dude trains hard and lives the bodybuilding life style. And Kai, just another freak...Both guys are super nice and are still improvng. When we all competed against each other back in the day...none of us looked like what we do now (except these freaks are IFBB pros now) We never set limits....and guess what, Kai and Milt are still gowing to get bigger and harder and win more shows...I will be slightly behind them...again my genetics are NOT like theirs, but I GOT FIRE IN ME!

Natural OR Non-Natural...it really comes down to "how bad do you want it" and loose all distraction(s) in your way!

[Shawn J]

I hate the thought of Steriods. I do belive that the physiques are different between the users and non-users. Anyway you look at it, it's cheating. I don't want to sound like a goody two shoe, but I would have a hard time with myself if I used. I read "Muscle and Fitness" often and one day I was in a airport and I bought a "Muscle Development" mag, I was really shocked to read that they pretty much support steroid use.

[Frankie86]

explain this further to me, i dont quite understand

is there a difference to juicing and steriods?

The guy in that interview abused steroids..when you take steroids(juice) its supposed to be cycled..meaning you take it then come off for a while before you go back on..similar to how you cycle stak 2 or m-stak, just with longer rest periods..an ex: my friends older cousin is about 23 and was takin steroids,and ALOT of them for 2 1/2 years non stop..i believe he pissed black one day and was extremely close to dying almost needing a liver or kidney transplant....its not always like this, if done rite the effects are nowhere near this..i have friends that use them..i even personally inject half of them ( I DONT take them)..most of them see doctors who check there blood work, and monitor them while there on it, which is the smart thing to do..

now do not discredit the body builders who use them..these people still work harder then anyone for there bodies and have decided to take it to the next level..the people you discredit are those who only work out when there on steroids and stop when there cycle is done which is fucking dum and a complete waste of time..

as for bodybuilders..yes they take steroids..to say they dont is just naive..My father used to workout with Lou Ferrigno's brothers gym in brooklyn and has met him Lou several times..my dad thought about goin into competition..hes a big dude my dad and Ferrigno personally told him "if you wanna go into competition you need to take the drugs"..my dad did not do it, otherwise he would probably would have been standin up there on stage with him.. but its not rocket science..and genetics wont get you like that unless you have a fuckin tumor on the gland that secretes testosterone, and it produces at triple the normal rate, which would be cool..

You can get huge on your own no doubt, but to get like these guys is dam near impossible..just my thoughts..lata

86

[Skillz]

Just off the top of my head, who gives a shit? It's not like juicing will magically make everyone huge....i've seen guys juicing their heads off for years not breaking 225...I've seen natural guys doing some impressive things in the gym (I'm not gonna bullshit and say that that i've seen any impressive natural physiques...not in gyms at least) ...I do know a number of girls being 100% natural putting 95% of the male gymgoers to shame... Shit, my girl does bent over rows with 180 for reps and 700 on the leg-press....she murders me on intensity any day))

what I'm saying is the point is just to be huge (or whatever your goal is).....time/effort put in is the key to this sport. Dedicated hard work over time, coupled with the ability to analize and make the necessary adjustments will produce the results.... juice? that's only a small part of it really....

[Big Wides]

please watch the roid talk, its not necessary and a rule breaker. lets keep this clean