What kind of program should i do?

[Nemmm]

My lists are like

160lb bench,
210 deadlift
and idk squat

seem pretty weak, i weight 159 closer to 160

Should i gain mass or focus on gaining strength

[MojoMike36]

I'd suggest you take a look at a full body routine until you get your big 3 up (Deads, squats, bench). Full body routines aren't very fashionable or popular anymore. I say do what works not what happens to be featured in a magazine.

FBs are better for a starter. Lay your foundation bro and pay your dues.


.....


You should not train for mass at your present strength. You can't get big moving small weights.

[shizz702]

Mike is spot on, do this routine: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

Drink a gallon of milk a day, eat good, and sleep well and within 3 months you will have added some appreciable mass and strength.

[Geronimo]

Hey nemmm, it is true what the say...eat big, train big and sleep like a baby.
Do that routine and within half a year you'll see some serious results.
Just keep it goin' bro

[fenix237]

I'd suggest you take a look at a full body routine until you get your big 3 up (Deads, squats, bench). Full body routines aren't very fashionable or popular anymore. I say do what works not what happens to be featured in a magazine.

FBs are better for a starter. Lay your foundation bro and pay your dues.


.....


You should not train for mass at your present strength. You can't get big moving small weights.


x2

i agree with Mojo and Shizz. before i "knew" any better, i did a full body routine for 16 weeks with awesome results. i followed a M/W/F split.... same exercises, sets, and reps. in this order:

Squats, Bench Press, Barbell Rows, Standing Shoulder Press, Pulldowns, BB curls + 100 reps for abs.

-3 sets of 8 for 4 weeks
-4 sets of 6 for 4 weeks
-5 sets of 6 for 4 weeks
-6 sets of 6 for 4 weeks

*you should complete all sets/reps but still challenge yourself- add weight as you get stronger. contrary to what a lot of people want to believe, i got bigger, stronger, and my stamina went throught the roof. IDK why many believe full body w/o's are not productive- these workouts are time tested and proven to work well, just like many others!

[Littlefry]

First and foremost start SQUATTING now!

[MrMonday]

This:



You should not train for mass at your present strength. You can't get big moving small weights.

...makes no sense.

[Muscleguy93]

keep your rep range between 6-8(maybe 3-5 for deads/sq) and ur good. plus eat alot... work on that deadlift and squat u will notice a huge diffrence un ur body when u can DL or squat twice ur body weight.

[violator]

check this out:

http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/65-westside-for-skinny-bastards-part3.html

i used this system with great results...something a little different........

[MojoMike36]

When someone's 1R Max are all so low they should be focussing on strength.




This:



...makes no sense.

[bradley92rs]

i haven't posted much but i gained alot by doing a 5x5 my first time around get your stength up and size will follow can't remem exactly but it looked kinda like this

mon: squat 5x5
bench 5x5
deadliftl 5x5
accessory lifts

wed squat 5x5
overhead press 5x5
deadlift 5x5

fri squat 5x5
bench 5x5
deadlift 5x5
accessory lifts

start with a empty bar and add 5-10 lbs each work out till you stall 32 lifts in a row then go back 10 lbs and do it again run this for awhile and eat big and rest alot, then look to a split imho take it for what it is but it worked for me

[MojoMike36]

i haven't posted much but i gained alot by doing a 5x5 my first time around get your stength up and size will follow can't remem exactly but it looked kinda like this

mon: squat 5x5
bench 5x5
deadliftl 5x5
accessory lifts

wed squat 5x5
overhead press 5x5
deadlift 5x5

fri squat 5x5
bench 5x5
deadlift 5x5
accessory lifts

start with a empty bar and add 5-10 lbs each work out till you stall 32 lifts in a row then go back 10 lbs and do it again run this for awhile and eat big and rest alot, then look to a split imho take it for what it is but it worked for me


Sound advice sir.

[MrMonday]

When someone's 1R Max are all so low they should be focussing on strength.

The reason what you said made no sense is because gaining mass means you must focus on strength (and eat enough to grow).

Only focusing on strength would just mean he lifts and then doesn't eat enough food. And that would be dumb.

[GLHF]

My lists are like

160lb bench,
210 deadlift
and idk squat

seem pretty weak, i weight 159 closer to 160

Should i gain mass or focus on gaining strength

3x5 programs, 5x5 programs, WSB, do that in that order and you will be amazed at the numbers going up. AND DONT BE AFRAID TO EAT, you will cutt after ;)

and a tip for you 5$=4 cheeseburgers at MacDonals

[FlexThe135lbMenace]

My lists are like

160lb bench,
210 deadlift
and idk squat

seem pretty weak, i weight 159 closer to 160

Should i gain mass or focus on gaining strength

I'd say a full body like HST. I did that for about 6-8 weeks, and I managed to get my squats and deadlifts up. I'm 135 and went from a 150x4 deadlift to 245x3 deadlift, along with a 135 squats to 245x10. You'd be amazed at your strength gains if you do it right.

[Ir0nClad]

Mike is spot on, do this routine: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

Drink a gallon of milk a day, eat good, and sleep well and within 3 months you will have added some appreciable mass and strength.

I'm really starting to think that more than half the people on this forum need to do starting strength.

[shizz702]

I'm really starting to think that more than half the people on this forum need to do starting strength.

Yea it's unfortunate that most think they need to jump right into a bodypart split when they have yet to even develop those body parts.

No better way to build your foundation than SS.

[MVP]

My lists are like

160lb bench,
210 deadlift
and idk squat

seem pretty weak, i weight 159 closer to 160

Should i gain mass or focus on gaining strength

Master compound exercises and progressive resistance.

Look up starting strength, include rows and pull-ups and you're on your way.

[MrMonday]

This was a very strange statement:


Yea it's unfortunate that most think they need to jump right into a bodypart split when they have yet to even develop those body parts.

What exactly do you think a body part split is used for if not developing someone's body parts?


No better way to build your foundation than SS.

I disagree.

[shizz702]

This was a very strange statement:



What exactly do you think a body part split is used for if not developing someone's body parts?



I disagree.
Lol Monday here we go again.

If you don't think SS is a good way to start out and build your base then what would you suggest?

And I don't think it is necessary for someone to isolate bodyparts when their whole body is still a weak point.

Point being is a lot of guys jump right into 5 day splits when they have yet to even squat 1.5x their bodyweight or press or pull substantial weight, and I think one would be much better off doing a routine like SS or the 5x5 to build a strength base and develop their whole body first, and then go into bodybuilding split.

Why do I think that? Because first off, a full body strength program will produce much faster strength gains, and secondly it trains the whole body as a unit and will yield overall mass.

If you disagree what would you suggest, and why?

[MVP]

Good to see another guy that has read and acknowledging starting strength.

This is an excellent program (and book) that teaches movement technique, why you should perform certain movements and more importantly involves frequency.

Shiz is correct, you should not consider a body part split until you get your foundation going.

Less is more with beginners.


Lol Monday here we go again.

If you don't think SS is a good way to start out and build your base then what would you suggest?

And I don't think it is necessary for someone to isolate bodyparts when their whole body is still a weak point.

Point being is a lot of guys jump right into 5 day splits when they have yet to even squat 1.5x their bodyweight or press or pull substantial weight, and I think one would be much better off doing a routine like SS or the 5x5 to build a strength base and develop their whole body first, and then go into bodybuilding split.

Why do I think that? Because first off, a full body strength program will produce much faster strength gains, and secondly it trains the whole body as a unit and will yield overall mass.

If you disagree what would you suggest, and why?

[bradley92rs]

i agree SS is a great starting point it's just a proggressive 5x5 seemed to fit me better starting again, but i used to lift with the big 3 alot so i had the basic movements down and after 3 years off it was the right routine at the right time for me. Either would be a great start till they get to 1.5x body weight squat. hell to be truthfull i won't touch a split till i have a good 2+ years of pure strength training in again and maybe not even then, but my goals may be diffrent from others.

[MVP]

i agree SS is a great starting point it's just a proggressive 5x5 seemed to fit me better starting again, but i used to lift with the big 3 alot so i had the basic movements down and after 3 years off it was the right routine at the right time for me. Either would be a great start till they get to 1.5x body weight squat. hell to be truthfull i won't touch a split till i have a good 2+ years of pure strength training in again and maybe not even then, but my goals may be diffrent from others.

I agree with a lot of what you just said but not the last part.

"Strength training" would refer to resistance training without the calorie surplus, if you're "strength training" (using compounds/primary motions in the 4-6 rep range) and in a calorie surplus you'll gain weight and the weight is depended upon the source of the calories.

Strength training with no accompanying size is just an indicator of lack of calories, if you're lifting heavy and eating big you'll gain hypertrophy.

[bradley92rs]

yea after rereading my post i may have over simplified a bit. All i was trying to say is almost any proggressive compound routine in the 4-8 rep range will be a great starting point for anyone getting into this life. i was just useing "stength training" as a generic term for compound lifts and not iso lifts. like myself i went from proggressive 5x5 to pirio 5x5 and going to a 5/3/1 next

[MVP]

yea after rereading my post i may have over simplified a bit. All i was trying to say is almost any proggressive compound routine in the 4-8 rep range will be a great starting point for anyone getting into this life. i was just useing "stength training" as a generic term for compound lifts and not iso lifts. like myself i went from proggressive 5x5 to pirio 5x5 and going to a 5/3/1 next

Yeah - 5 X 5 people categorize as "strength" but as long as the appropriate calories are there it's difficult to separate strength and size. If you're in a calorie deficit and lifting heavy, you'll get strong but not big. If you're lifting heavy in a calorie surplus you'll get big regardless of the rep range. As long as you're giving enough microdamage to your muscles.

[prowrestler]

This was a very strange statement:



What exactly do you think a body part split is used for if not developing someone's body parts?



I disagree.

i dunno if you've realised but you have a trend of simply disregarding advise you do not agree with yet doing nothing postitive.

instead of simply make smartass like comments, why don't you post what you'd consider good advise? takes about the same time to do yet actualy will benefit this site.

[MVP]

i dunno if you've realised but you have a trend of simply disregarding advise you do not agree with yet doing nothing postitive.

instead of simply make smartass like comments, why don't you post what you'd consider good advise? takes about the same time to do yet actualy will benefit this site.

Agreed. If you're going to disagree with someone an elaboration is necessary.

[MrMonday]

Lol Monday here we go again.

If you don't think SS is a good way to start out and build your base then what would you suggest?

And I don't think it is necessary for someone to isolate bodyparts when their whole body is still a weak point.

Point being is a lot of guys jump right into 5 day splits when they have yet to even squat 1.5x their bodyweight or press or pull substantial weight, and I think one would be much better off doing a routine like SS or the 5x5 to build a strength base and develop their whole body first, and then go into bodybuilding split.

Why do I think that? Because first off, a full body strength program will produce much faster strength gains, and secondly it trains the whole body as a unit and will yield overall mass.

If you disagree what would you suggest, and why?

Why are you under the impression that a 5-way split doesn't make the whole body bigger?

Why do you think you can't have rapid strength gains on a 5-way split?

And why do you think the best "whole body" gains you will see are on a program that neglects entire bodyparts, and sacrifices some of the basics just to have a high squat frequency?

SS can offer rapid gains in squat poundage obviously, and some people can get a decent bench with the program although I have noticed most people start to have problems there first. But you seem to forget that all muscles need to be trained and made stronger to see the most growth.

Obviously relying on back exercises alone to elicit bicep growth is a poor option compared to training both your back and your biceps directly. Relying on chest and shoulder exercises to develop your triceps is a poor option compared to training all of them, and furthermore relying on only bench pressing and military pressing for shoulder development is a great way to (a) get a dangerous muscle imbalance, and (b) have crappy lagging lateral deltoids.

Obviously the best option when training shoulders is to do pressing, AND raises.

And that's besides the fact that only doing squats and deadlifts is a poor way to train your thighs, and the calves get no training whatsoever.

When you correct all of the problems there are with recommending Starting Strength to someone who wants to get bigger, you arrive at a traditional 3-4 way bodybuilding split, which is exactly what I'd recommend to a beginner...

... using ALL of the basics to make ALL of their muscle groups stronger. Not just a handful and then having to play catch-up later on.

[MVP]

Why do you think you can't have rapid strength gains on a 5-way split?

Because it lacks in frequency. You cannot say that you will progress better on a split that allows you to train a movement 1X per week over one that you train 3X per week.


And why do you think the best "whole body" gains you will see are on a program that neglects entire bodyparts, and sacrifices some of the basics just to have a high squat frequency?

How do you neglect entire body parts? You can train each movement and with this each muscle group will be worked.


SS can offer rapid gains in squat poundage obviously, and some people can get a decent bench with the program although I have noticed most people start to have problems there first. But you seem to forget that all muscles need to be trained and made stronger to see the most growth.

There was good thinking behind the starting strength routine. But, I believe the movement can cause potential shoulder imbalance (ask if you want to know why). But you'll progress in much more than just squats and bench, you'll progress in overhead presses, pull-ups (I always tell people to include them and rows).


Obviously relying on back exercises alone to elicit bicep growth is a poor option compared to training both your back and your biceps directly. Relying on chest and shoulder exercises to develop your triceps is a poor option compared to training all of them, and furthermore relying on only bench pressing and military pressing for shoulder development is a great way to (a) get a dangerous muscle imbalance, and (b) have crappy lagging lateral deltoids.

I agree with one thing you said - working the lateral deltoids, that can be included in a full body routine though.

Next thing, no... training back the biceps would be synergists, therefore they WOULD be overloaded. So you cannot say that would not result in hypertrophy, progressive overload required workout to workout progression, is it easier to progress each week on a barbell curl or a barbell row? Sticking with just curls to biceps growth is the best way to plateau and look the same.. rely on the back movements, once you synergists plateau then it's time to work them to bring the lagging part up.


Obviously the best option when training shoulders is to do pressing, AND raises.

Huh?


And that's besides the fact that only doing squats and deadlifts is a poor way to train your thighs, and the calves get no training whatsoever.

Really? How about I take a picture of my enormous calves in relation to the rest of my body to display on here that have become developed through squats and deadlifts alone. Having 315lbs setting on your back and pushing up on your feet will not work your calves?


When you correct all of the problems there are with recommending Starting Strength to someone who wants to get bigger, you arrive at a traditional 3-4 way bodybuilding split, which is exactly what I'd recommend to a beginner...

Beginners can make linear progress on their compound movements (those movements you hate so much), if he is training those compound movements 1X per week he is only cheating himself of progression. Am I for splits? Yes.. do I believe they should be recommended to a beginner? Absolutely not.


... using ALL of the basics to make ALL of their muscle groups stronger. Not just a handful and then having to play catch-up later on.

Once again, a synergist, antagonist... they are overloaded. All that is required to hypertrophy a muscle is it to be overloaded.

Biceps stimulus directly comes from flexsion at the elbow which is exactly occurs in a pull-up, barbell row, face pull... so what argument you have is not logical. Flexsion of the elbow occurs during rows too.

How many huge guys have you seen with little arms? Not many, eh? Your synergists are forced to grow when you develop a compound.

[shizz702]

Why are you under the impression that a 5-way split doesn't make the whole body bigger?

Why do you think you can't have rapid strength gains on a 5-way split?

And why do you think the best "whole body" gains you will see are on a program that neglects entire bodyparts, and sacrifices some of the basics just to have a high squat frequency?

SS can offer rapid gains in squat poundage obviously, and some people can get a decent bench with the program although I have noticed most people start to have problems there first. But you seem to forget that all muscles need to be trained and made stronger to see the most growth.

Obviously relying on back exercises alone to elicit bicep growth is a poor option compared to training both your back and your biceps directly. Relying on chest and shoulder exercises to develop your triceps is a poor option compared to training all of them, and furthermore relying on only bench pressing and military pressing for shoulder development is a great way to (a) get a dangerous muscle imbalance, and (b) have crappy lagging lateral deltoids.

Obviously the best option when training shoulders is to do pressing, AND raises.

And that's besides the fact that only doing squats and deadlifts is a poor way to train your thighs, and the calves get no training whatsoever.

When you correct all of the problems there are with recommending Starting Strength to someone who wants to get bigger, you arrive at a traditional 3-4 way bodybuilding split, which is exactly what I'd recommend to a beginner...

... using ALL of the basics to make ALL of their muscle groups stronger. Not just a handful and then having to play catch-up later on.

I'm not completely against a 5 day split or any of the like, shit I'm doing a 4 day split myself. There's different routines suited for different people.

I am against a novice or someone who has yet to build a solid base of bulk and strength to go into a high volume bodybuilding split because it is not necessary nor is it suitable.

Why do I think you can't make rapid strength gains on a high volume split?

Well first off I can base that on my own experience. I started off like most with a specific day for each body part 5+ days a week and got no nowhere.

That is how most people start out and how most people train, and it is little wonder to me why you don't see a whole lot of muscle in commercial gyms.

So I ask you, why should someone have a chest day, if they can't even bench press their own body weight yet? Or why should they have a leg day when they can't even squat 150% of their body weight?

A novice who has yet to build a strength base doesn't need calf raises, or leg curls, or crossovers, or flys.....yet.

Until someone has built up a good base of bulk on the basic exercises all that shit is going to do is get in the way and interefere with recovery.

And nobody is saying one should do Starting Strength forever, think about it, it is simply starting strength training, it is just an effective way to start out, build a base of bulk and strength on the basic exercises.

The creators of these routines (Starting Strength, Madcow 5x5) have dedicated their entire lives to exercise and I'd like to think they know what they are doing.

There are countless testimonials to their effectiveness and many (myself included) have had great success with them.

Are they the only programs/way to train? Certainly not, nor would I recommend only doing them.

I would recommend a newb or someone who has trained ineffectively to give SS a go for a few months, and the 5x5 is great for the intermediate who wants to bulk up and gain some strength or simply take a break from a bodybuilding split.

No one is saying (at least I'm not) don't train your arms, don't do lat raises or any of that shit, I'm simply trying to reccommned what I feel would be in the OP's best interest at this stage of his training.

And as far as only squatting and deadlifting for your lower body, the only thing squats and deadlifts do not directly hit is the calfs.

Other than you can build some solid fucking wheels with them.

My thighs tape off at 28" and the only thing I do for them is that.

I will agree though that some calf work is necessary if you are bodybuilding.

[Elite]

To back up shizz, i've gone way back to basics after 2 yrs of 4-5day splits and isolation work, seperating muscle groups. I myself am doing the SS 3day split routine, which i guess in a couple months will spill over to madcows 5x5. I've noticed improvements in size, strength, balance, coordination and general satisfaction that i never got from the reg BB splits. If i had my time again, there is no doubt i would start with rippetoes 3x5, it just makes perfect sense.

[MonsterGenes]

My lists are like

160lb bench,
210 deadlift
and idk squat

seem pretty weak, i weight 159 closer to 160

Should i gain mass or focus on gaining strength


build up your base first, you can do a bodybuilding split but have your main focuses on your core lifts like presses,squats,deadlifts, dont believe shit like "this exercise will peak this.....or do these flys for more detail!!! oh bull, here try this


day 1 chest,delts, triceps

incline bench press 3 of 5-8 reps
chest dips 3xfailure

standing military press 3x6-10
wide grip upright row 3x8-12

lying barbell skullcrusher 3x8-12
tricep dips 3xfailure


day 2 rest


day 3 quads, hams

squats 3x10-15
stiff-leg deadlift 3x10-15
dumbbell lunge 3x10-15

day 4 rest


day 5 back, biceps

chin ups (2 sets wide grip, 2 sets close grip, 2 sets underhand grip all to failure)
deadlift 3x5-10
dumbbell row 3x8-12

barbell curl 3x5-8
dumbbell hammer curl 3x5-10)

day 6 and 7 rest

nothing too fancy

[MVP]

build up your base first, you can do a bodybuilding split but have your main focuses on your core lifts like presses,squats,deadlifts, dont believe shit like "this exercise will peak this.....or do these flys for more detail!!! oh bull, here try this


day 1 chest,delts, triceps

incline bench press 3 of 5-8 reps
chest dips 3xfailure

standing military press 3x6-10
wide grip upright row 3x8-12

lying barbell skullcrusher 3x8-12
tricep dips 3xfailure


day 2 rest


day 3 quads, hams

squats 3x10-15
stiff-leg deadlift 3x10-15
dumbbell lunge 3x10-15

day 4 rest


day 5 back, biceps

chin ups (2 sets wide grip, 2 sets close grip, 2 sets underhand grip all to failure)
deadlift 3x5-10
dumbbell row 3x8-12

barbell curl 3x5-8
dumbbell hammer curl 3x5-10)

day 6 and 7 rest

nothing too fancy

Agreed with everything except upright rows - best way to damage your rotator cuffs.

[MonsterGenes]

Agreed with everything except upright rows - best way to damage your rotator cuffs.

arnt wide grip upright rows basically the same thing as a heavy dumbbell side lateral?

[MVP]

arnt wide grip upright rows basically the same thing as a heavy dumbbell side lateral?

No, upright rows are anterior delt dominant, dumbell lateral raises area later delt dominant.