Coach in need of help [Archive]

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dominatetheiron

07-29-09, 1:55 pm

So heres the deal i got hired as an assistant coach at a D1 highschool wrestling program and i am struggleing to make a workout program for the team. Although i have plenty of time to get it ready for the winter i want time to test and refine it.

Basically in season i will have two days a week one hour each day to try to strengthen the kids. My basic areas of concern are back, grip strength, and leg power. I was thinking of a back/upperbody/grip day for one day of the week and the second day being a leg/power movement day. in my mind this seems logical if im way off here let me know.

The gym is good sized it has a lot of open racks, lots of free weights, and lots of dumbells, A couple of the gyms set backs include only hammer strength equipment outside of the power racks, no cable machine, and only one lat pulldown machine which is shotty and outdated.

Although i do have several skeleton plans created i thought i would go to the brotherhood for some advice. Any and all advice is welcome so let me know guys and gals thanks.

GJN5002

07-29-09, 3:26 pm

push/pull routine might work well or just an overall focus on power movements. squats, bench, deads, some olympic moves thrown in, tire flipping, pull ups etc.

shizz702

07-29-09, 8:12 pm

With only two days a week to work with I'd opt for something like this as outlined in the classic strength training book Dinosaur Training:

Day 1

Squat 4x5
Standing Press 4x5
Bent over rows 4x5
Farmers walk-one time
Heavy ab work-2 sets
Optional assistance work for arms, calves, or grip.

Day 2

Deadlifts 4x5
Bench press 4x5
Sandbag carry-one time
Abs-2 sets
Same optional assistance work.

Something like would do wonders for the team I'm sure.

theharjmann

07-30-09, 5:33 am

dominatetheiron

07-30-09, 10:10 am

dominatetheiron

07-30-09, 10:15 am

What days of the week will the guys get to train with weights?

What's their diet like? Do they know much about diet? If they dont, educate them and their strength will increase tenfold trust me.

I am unsure what days of the week the workout sessions will be. they usually compete thursday and Sat and they do pool work on sundays. I am having a hard time figuring out what days would be best because i dont really want them to lift a day before a competition because they are going to have a limited diet.

also most of their diets are more than likely garbage. being that i wrestled for 18 years in my own life and continue to do so today, i have a great deal of information regarding their diet. I am going to do the best i can to educate them and help them make good choices but i can only open the door they have to walk through it.

Also thanks for the help the head coach is a friend of mine for many years and we live together and his strength program has been hurting for years because he lacks knowledge in this area and i really want to come up with something that will help the team improve.

thanks again guys.

shizz702

07-30-09, 6:23 pm

Thanks for the help i was thinking something similar to that for my boys. i think im going to make a modified version of that for them.

Something like would definitely be a great program for them.

If you have access to sandbags, you can even have them do sandbag cleans for the added explosiveness.

Power cleans of course are great for sport, but they are tough to teach the correct form, the strongman type exercises such as farmers walks and sandbag work would be probably translate into the mat really well, and of course the power lifts never hurt.

Best wishes for you and the team bro!

Let us know the final program you decide on for them.

Cstlfx

07-30-09, 8:15 pm

Here is a recent article from EliteFTS:

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/predictor_lifts.htm

I also think Strongman activities are great because they're fun, challenging, and a good way to compete. The sandbags mentioned above are a good idea. If you cant get those, have them carry each other.

Farmers walks are great for grip strength. Stonework depending on your bodyweight would be a good one, as there is a huge difference between dead weight and live weight. Or even borrow a keg from a liquor store filled with water. Different size kegs for different sized wrestlers.

Tire flips are amazing. They'll make you hurt in places you didnt know about.

Walking lunges are good too. Get a barbell and put it on your shoulders, or if their grip hasnt been shot yet, make em hold the Dumbbells and have them walk a certain distance.

TigerAce01

07-30-09, 8:30 pm

Young&Hungry

07-30-09, 9:01 pm

Go to www.crossfit.com and check out their workouts and choose the ones that would best suit your needs. CrossFit involves elements of running, powerlifting, olympic weightlifting, metabolic conditioning, endurance activities, and overall fitness. There are so many workouts to choose from, they're updated daily, and best of all...everything can be scaled to meet the needs of any athlete.

Many fighters, wrestlers, judoka, and countless fitness enthusiasts have found CrossFit to be a priceless tool in developing power, flexibility, endurance, stamina, and mental focus/intensity. I have been doing it for some time now, almost religiously, 3 days on 1 day off (the standard CrossFit split), and I have seen extraordinary results.

-Ace

Crossfit is also a non-periodized program and is also notorious to severe overtraining. Not the kind of overtraining like "oh my lifts are going down and I'm sore," but broken down muscle fibers blocking the kidneys and ending up in the ER on dialysis. This is one of the major flaws of Crossfit and it has been well documented and reported, even amongst its most diehard members. My training partner's sister is a hardcore Crossfitter and was hospitalized within the last year or so with the same syndrome. I don't know the exact terminology for what I described but that's it. I think for a smart, advanced trainee a modified approach to the Crossfit system of training is acceptable, but for a young athlete who has yet to master complex motor skills in the weightroom and is still growing, there are much better ways to train them.

Shizz laid out a great routine but remember, the program is only as good as the coach. I suggest you get Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe to learn how to coach the lifts effectively, it's the best book out there for teaching these lifts. I would add some unilateral work in the routine because of the varying body positions in the sport of wrestling, but other than that it's damn solid. Don't train your athletes like bodybuilders and I think you will have something good going.

TigerAce01

07-30-09, 9:22 pm

Crossfit is also a non-periodized program and is also notorious to severe overtraining. Not the kind of overtraining like "oh my lifts are going down and I'm sore," but broken down muscle fibers blocking the kidneys and ending up in the ER on dialysis. This is one of the major flaws of Crossfit and it has been well documented and reported, even amongst its most diehard members. My training partner's sister is a hardcore Crossfitter and was hospitalized within the last year or so with the same syndrome. I don't know the exact terminology for what I described but that's it. I think for a smart, advanced trainee a modified approach to the Crossfit system of training is acceptable, but for a young athlete who has yet to master complex motor skills in the weightroom and is still growing, there are much better ways to train them.

One, he said two days a week. Hence why I told him to choose 2 workouts a week, and scale them to the needs of his athletes.

Everything comes down to scaling the workouts, and choosing workouts that fit. I scale workouts...I take breaks when I need them, and I skip workouts when I feel my body needs it.

If you listen to your body and don't over do it, then the singular workouts CrossFit has put forward work very well.

Just like anyone can go overboard with simple lifting...someone can go overboard with CrossFit.

-Ace

Young&Hungry

07-30-09, 9:43 pm

One, he said two days a week. Hence why I told him to choose 2 workouts a week, and scale them to the needs of his athletes.

Everything comes down to scaling the workouts, and choosing workouts that fit. I scale workouts...I take breaks when I need them, and I skip workouts when I feel my body needs it.

If you listen to your body and don't over do it, then the singular workouts CrossFit has put forward work very well.

Just like anyone can go overboard with simple lifting...someone can go overboard with CrossFit.

-Ace

Point taken. I did not mean to attack your train of thought at all bro, I have trained with a very successful strongman who also competes in the Crossfit Games and he is definitely one strong mofo and all around solid athlete. My point is that I believe Crossfit is best for someone who has mastered complex movements in the weightroom (squats, deads, power cleans, bench, overhead presses, various lunge movements, jumping movements, bodyweight movements, etc) and already has a good understanding as to where their bodies are at and how hard they can push them.

When you're dealing with high school athletes, most have never seriously lifted weights in their life aside from going to the gym and doing chest and arms with friends, so their understanding of core movements is probably limited. Since you have to assume that none of them have ever "trained", the coaching and general preparation phases will be the most critical. Why put a kid on a bench if he can't do a clean pushup, or have a kid squat when he can't jump onto a 2 foot box? Instruction and getting kids conditioned prior to starting weightlifting (ie. getting them into decent shape, pushing bodyweight movements instead of heavy barbells, and spending time perfecting form rather than pushing maximal or even appreciable submaximal loads) should be the emphasis with these types of athletes.

I think if you push the Crossfit thing to an athlete at that stage, the whole concept of competitively timing workouts will lead the athlete to stray from what they should be focusing on which is building a base to start from. I think a few months of bodyweight/plyometric work, flexibility and conditioning work, and basic barbell lift instruction before or after said workouts would suit these guys much better than getting thrown into a weightroom as total lifting virgins and be expected to perform power cleans, burpees, and other advanced movements for time. The idea of having a fast paced cardio intensive workout for an athlete with the demands of a sport like wrestling is a novel concept (and frankly suitable) but you have to start from the ground up with a young athlete. And starting them right into the Crossfit world so unprepared is not the way to do it.

TigerAce01

07-30-09, 10:06 pm

Point taken. I did not mean to attack your train of thought at all bro, I have trained with a very successful strongman who also competes in the Crossfit Games and he is definitely one strong mofo and all around solid athlete. My point is that I believe Crossfit is best for someone who has mastered complex movements in the weightroom (squats, deads, power cleans, bench, overhead presses, various lunge movements, jumping movements, bodyweight movements, etc) and already has a good understanding as to where their bodies are at and how hard they can push them.

When you're dealing with high school athletes, most have never seriously lifted weights in their life aside from going to the gym and doing chest and arms with friends, so their understanding of core movements is probably limited. Since you have to assume that none of them have ever "trained", the coaching and general preparation phases will be the most critical. Why put a kid on a bench if he can't do a clean pushup, or have a kid squat when he can't jump onto a 2 foot box? Instruction and getting kids conditioned prior to starting weightlifting (ie. getting them into decent shape, pushing bodyweight movements instead of heavy barbells, and spending time perfecting form rather than pushing maximal or even appreciable submaximal loads) should be the emphasis with these types of athletes.

I think if you push the Crossfit thing to an athlete at that stage, the whole concept of competitively timing workouts will lead the athlete to stray from what they should be focusing on which is building a base to start from. I think a few months of bodyweight/plyometric work, flexibility and conditioning work, and basic barbell lift instruction before or after said workouts would suit these guys much better than getting thrown into a weightroom as total lifting virgins and be expected to perform power cleans, burpees, and other advanced movements for time. The idea of having a fast paced cardio intensive workout for an athlete with the demands of a sport like wrestling is a novel concept (and frankly suitable) but you have to start from the ground up with a young athlete. And starting them right into the Crossfit world so unprepared is not the way to do it.

This is a much better explanation than what you had originally posted, so thank you.

I've seen high school wrestlers use it, and they have had great seasons. I've seen track and field athletes use it, and have had great seasons. I've seen fighters use it, and have had outstanding fights. I believe it makes you a better all around athlete.

I do understand what you are saying about these younger athletes not knowing about complicated movements...but that is exactly where scaling comes into play. Scaling means not only lowering weight and intensity, but also substituting exercises. Can't do a muscle up? Sub it with 3 pull ups and 3 dips. Can't do a full pull up? Stand on a box and do them. Can't do a 135lbs power clean? Do it with the bar and do twice as many reps.

Also, most of these workouts are time constrained, meaning you can only push yourself to your threshold for a certain, and SAFE, amount of time. The typical time period is twenty minutes. If you can only do a single round of the workout in 20 minutes...then there's your workout.

Also, I told him to choose from ANY of the workouts. There's the "Filthy Fifty" which I would never suggest to anyone who is not an avid CrossFitter, then there's our 1RM days...after a warmup we do 7 single rep sets of a chosen exercise (deadlift, snatch, clean, OH press, bench), working up to our 1RM. You can't tell me that's more intense than a 5x5 program.

Tomorrow's workout seems like a perfect workout for these wrestlers...As many rounds as possible in 20 minutes of - Run 400m (quarter of a mile) and max pull ups. If they can only complete a single pull up...that's their max. If they only finish a single round...that's their workout. Sounds like they can push themselves as hard or as lightly as they want.

I have seen many do it...and not a single one of them was ever in the hospital.

-Ace

Young&Hungry

07-30-09, 10:51 pm

This is a much better explanation than what you had originally posted, so thank you.

I've seen high school wrestlers use it, and they have had great seasons. I've seen track and field athletes use it, and have had great seasons. I've seen fighters use it, and have had outstanding fights. I believe it makes you a better all around athlete.

No problem bro. I'm not arguing the fact that Crossfit is effective, it's blatantly obvious that it works and it does a lot of good for a lot of people. However you can say that any program is effective. When I first started lifting weights I used to do individual bodyparts for 2 hours a day, 7 days a week and I still managed to pack on 30 pounds in that year. With the references to it being effective for other people, that is heresay when you're trying to argue the hard science of a training methodology.

CrossFit has no clear cut methods of periodization for the development of athletes. I personally believe that when working with a beginner level athlete, having a plan that fits in accordingly to the athlete's yearly calendar is critical. I think at that beginning stage, the athlete should be worried about increasing bodyweight exercise rep numbers, becoming more flexible, better conditioned, and learning about their bodies and how to perform exercises properly. I don't think doing burpees and runs for time while a coach holds a stopwatch behind your back is the proper way to teach these athletes. There is a lot more to being a good athlete than just effort and having a good attitude. The guy who trains like a madman but trains stupid will always lose to the guy who trains hard but smart - it's just a fact. You need to have the brains to back up the brawn.

I do understand what you are saying about these younger athletes not knowing about complicated movements...but that is exactly where scaling comes into play. Scaling means not only lowering weight and intensity, but also substituting exercises. Can't do a muscle up? Sub it with 3 pull ups and 3 dips. Can't do a full pull up? Stand on a box and do them. Can't do a 135lbs power clean? Do it with the bar and do twice as many reps.

Also, most of these workouts are time constrained, meaning you can only push yourself to your threshold for a certain, and SAFE, amount of time. The typical time period is twenty minutes. If you can only do a single round of the workout in 20 minutes...then there's your workout.

Like I said previously, the beginning phases of an athlete's development should come through extensive coaching, learning, and preparation for the workload ahead. I don't think 80% of high school athletes are prepared to jump into the intensity, movement mechanics, and physical stress that a CrossFit style workout demands. And about the time thing, at the beginning of an athlete's development I don't think time should be a factor. These kids are probably at home playing X-Box and eating Doritos on the weekends and after school - who cares if the workout takes longer than 20 minutes at that stage? Anything is better than the nothing that they are probably doing.

The time factor can be pushed later on the training cycle when the athlete is better conditioned and more acclimated to an intense workload. I would rather have an athlete move at a slow pace in the very beginning stages yet have very good pushup, pullup, dip, situp, bodyweight squat, and box jump numbers and be in decent shape than be screaming at him to move his ass as he struggles with expectations that are beyond his abilities and movements that are beyond his capacity.[/QUOTE]

Also, I told him to choose from ANY of the workouts. There's the "Filthy Fifty" which I would never suggest to anyone who is not an avid CrossFitter, then there's our 1RM days...after a warmup we do 7 single rep sets of a chosen exercise (deadlift, snatch, clean, OH press, bench), working up to our 1RM. You can't tell me that's more intense than a 5x5 program.

I think what you're aiming towards is that he should implement a bodyweight style circuit routine with his athletes. Honestly, I wouldn't disagree with that logic very much at all and I think it's very suitable. However, I think the whole timing thing shouldn't be a factor AT THIS STAGE and more emphasis should be placed on getting basic movements mastered, correct form on all weight room lifts, and be in good condition rather than trying to beat the clock.

The statement I bolded is the only statement in your entire post I will come after a full head of steam with. That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. Why would you max on 7 lifts in one day? After reaching the 2nd or 3rd lift to max on, do you think your body is still even slightly ready to achieve peak performance on lifts 4-7? There is a BIG difference between building strength and testing strength. If you have a solid grasp on any form of linear periodization, even conjugate Westside style periodization for that matter, you should only be "testing" strength 4-6 times per year. Anything more is detrimental and the progress will be minimal, if any at all. If you understood the hormonal process at all you would realize the absolute havoc you're wreaking on your CNS and body overall by maxing on 7 lifts in a single day.

And about that being more intense than a 5x5 routine, what the hell does intensity mean anyways? Does intensity mean killing yourself on a daily basis and not intelligently planning stages to develop certain aspects of strength in various lifts? The heaviest I squatted for a 21 week training cycle leading up to a state level powerlifting meet was 415x5, and in that meet I squatted 475 with my ass hitting my calves for a state record. Was I the hardest working athlete at that meet? Maybe so, maybe not. But you have to remember what the training process is for - is it to be the strongest and most complete athlete you can be, or is it about self abuse in the weight room and living for the workout and forgetting about the purpose of it all?

Tomorrow's workout seems like a perfect workout for these wrestlers...As many rounds as possible in 20 minutes of - Run 400m (quarter of a mile) and max pull ups. If they can only complete a single pull up...that's their max. If they only finish a single round...that's their workout. Sounds like they can push themselves as hard or as lightly as they want.

I have seen many do it...and not a single one of them was ever in the hospital.

-Ace

I don't see how any biomechanical movements in the sport of wrestling are replicated by running for time and doing pullups. Two great movements - but I don't see how they'd specifically benefit a wrestler. When I build a program for an athlete, I want to watch the sport and see how the athletes body reacts and moves under routine stresses and situations. Then, I want to pick movements that can closely replicate these actions so that they can have the best translation to the given sport. I'm not saying run to the cable machines and Bosu balls - but for a wrestler I would thing various lunges, squats, pushups, dumbbell squats to presses, planks, sandbag work, various rows, strongman lifts and other odd object movements would more so replicate these movements than generic, non-sport specific Crossfit workouts that are not necessarily designed for athletes of said sport.

Young&Hungry

07-30-09, 10:57 pm

I understand you are trying to defend your philosophies and beliefs in Crossfit. I believe you are a hell of a worker because I don't think anybody can just come out of nowhere and do a Crossfit workout. But you need to understand that the Crossfit practices are not applicable to all situations and all ranges of athletes. I train strongman and have a background in olympic lifting and Westside as well, and I currently train my gym lifts using Wendler's 5/3/1. However, I am currently training a friend of mine who is a state champion wrestler and we do not train even slightly the same. I train specifically for my goals in strongman, and I train him for his goals in wrestling. I will not train him how I train myself because "it worked for me", however, I train him how I train him because I feel that that is what will make him the best athlete he can be.

Cstlfx

07-30-09, 11:20 pm

I didnt want to deal with the quotes A LOT of info here. But Y&H, you read his post wrong about the 1 rep max.

He said that you do 7 singles of ONE exercise. He just listed what to choose from, not everything you do in a workout. The workout would look like this:

Warm-up Squat
1 rep (max) x 7 sets Squat

In my opinion, Crossfit would be beneficial to a Varsity wrestler in the off season. However, seeing as practices all ready run 2-3 hours doing many similar moves to Crossfit, in season it could be detrimental to their training. I think traditional weighted strength training (in the two sessions a week he said he would have) would help the wrestlers go farther.

TigerAce01

07-30-09, 11:50 pm

That is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. If you have a solid grasp on any form of linear periodization, even conjugate Westside style periodization for that matter...if you understood the hormonal process at all.

You have lost quite a bit of my respect. I will not keep explaining things to you and have you insult me. I have already answered all of your questions in a respectful manner.

-Ace

Cstlfx

07-30-09, 11:59 pm

You have lost quite a bit of my respect. I will not keep explaining things to you and have you insult me. I have already answered all of your questions in a respectful manner.

-Ace

Once again, he read the quote wrong!

If you were maxing out in 7 different lifts in one workout, yes, that would be retarded!

TigerAce01

07-31-09, 12:03 am

Once again, he read the quote wrong!

If you were maxing out in 7 different lifts in one workout, yes, that would be retarded!

Absolutely...he read it wrong. And it's not even our 1RM for all sets, it is worked up to our 1RM. Say build up from 225 to 405. But I don't want to continue a bickering contest and just be insulted when I am merely trying to explain things and try to help the OP out.

Everyone put in their 2 cents, as did I. He was wondering about CrossFit, so I shared my knowledge in a respectful manner.

-Ace