Question

[Machine]

Can one change the nature of a man?

I do alot of work with young people who are running three races.

1) The race to catch up

2) The race to keep up.

3) The race to get ahead.

I am wondering if anyone has any opinions on the nature of men...and if they feel that one can change the nature of a man. Because after all, how many people do you know who have really changed in their lifetimes?


MACHINE

[mritter3]

wow...thats a deep question Machine, but i think you can change the nature of a man, but the man has to want to change for himself, not for anyone else or because he thinks he is suppossed to, its got to be what he wants. Most men are too stubborn to want to change, but in reality many of us need to change, its what seperates us from the next man....just my 2 cents.

[Wasteland]

What is the nature of man? What is change and how do we measure it?

[CuttDeez]

I believe it is inherent in the nature of man to strive to better himself. It is the course of life to want to attain a better existance. However, what I believe varries from person to person are there motivations. Whether it be family, self promoting, or some other reason. There is always an underlying factor that drives a man.

In terms of changing the nature of man I do not think it is possible. The man always has his own desires and his own ways, but it is sometimes misguided and he even looses that drive on occasion (some refer to this as the sick nature). You can revamp a mans desire and set him back on his own path. However, I do not belive you can set a path for him.

I also understand that eevryone's path is different. One might has an ideal nature that melds with his or her personality and goals. Even another that has the same goals sees the path differently.

In terms of the races:

I would say that this is where misguidedness and loss of motivation comes from. Those that seem constantly motivated and are determined and commited to bettering themselves sometimes live in a constant internal battle to catch up. They themselves are pursuing becasue they believe they are behind while others are amazed at how they are seperating themselves from the pack. Others that belive they are in a race to better themselves seem to need to catch up. They are comfortable with there position so much so that they are blinded to the fact that they are falling behind.

Those that know they are ahead but strive anyway truly believe in attaining their perfect self. We would like to see everyone do this! Is it possible to motivate people towards this goal? Yes I believe so, but that admission is utopian. Not only would it be impossible to motivate everyone to that level, but I truly believe everyones path is different. Therefore even if everyone did attain this level of motivation no one would see it that way because in our minds not everyone would be motivated towards the same thing. So I think that is the nature of it. It is inherent in man to better himself/ herself, but what that is is unique to each of us.

[live2lift]

Can one change the nature of a man?

I do alot of work with young people who are running three races.

1) The race to catch up

2) The race to keep up.

3) The race to get ahead.

I am wondering if anyone has any opinions on the nature of men...and if they feel that one can change the nature of a man. Because after all, how many people do you know who have really changed in their lifetimes?


MACHINE

I personally feel that most men will not change. They complain about life in general but refuse to take the actions necessary to improve their circumstances. I also believe that life in general is a constantly evolving process and you must be willing to change certain things or you will never acheive your true potential. Life is all about accomlishing your ultimate purpose and doing whatever it takes to get there as long as it does not take away from others, and you cannot do this unless you are willing to make some sacrifices for the greater good. If you are not truly willing to do this, then why are you living?

Peace

[CuttDeez]

I believe it is inherent in the nature of man to strive to better himself. It is the course of life to want to attain a better existance. However, what I believe varries from person to person are there motivations. Whether it be family, self promoting, or some other reason. There is always an underlying factor that drives a man.

In terms of changing the nature of man I do not think it is possible. The man always has his own desires and his own ways, but it is sometimes misguided and he even looses that drive on occasion (some refer to this as the sick nature). You can revamp a mans desire and set him back on his own path. However, I do not belive you can set a path for him.

I also understand that eevryone's path is different. One might has an ideal nature that melds with his or her personality and goals. Even another that has the same goals sees the path differently.

In terms of the races:

I would say that this is where misguidedness and loss of motivation comes from. Those that seem constantly motivated and are determined and commited to bettering themselves sometimes live in a constant internal battle to catch up. They themselves are pursuing becasue they believe they are behind while others are amazed at how they are seperating themselves from the pack. Others that belive they are in a race to better themselves seem to need to catch up. They are comfortable with there position so much so that they are blinded to the fact that they are falling behind.

Those that know they are ahead but strive anyway truly believe in attaining their perfect self. We would like to see everyone do this! Is it possible to motivate people towards this goal? Yes I believe so, but that admission is utopian. Not only would it be impossible to motivate everyone to that level, but I truly believe everyones path is different. Therefore even if everyone did attain this level of motivation no one would see it that way because in our minds not everyone would be motivated towards the same thing. So I think that is the nature of it. It is inherent in man to better himself/ herself, but what that is is unique to each of us.

I forgot to add to my comment the third nature. There are the ones that know there path and are motivated. Then there are the 'Sick" or the ones that have a path and are misguided or lost a little desire. THen there are the unmotivated and ones without any goals. These are people that don't believe in themselves enough to think it possible to change. Or do not think it worth there effort. These are the people taht can be changed by outside forces. They can be shown a path and can start down it until the motivation comes on to them, but as they progress they will so down their own unique path.

[Mr. Dead]

Can one change the nature of a man?

I do alot of work with young people who are running three races.

1) The race to catch up

2) The race to keep up.

3) The race to get ahead.

I am wondering if anyone has any opinions on the nature of men...and if they feel that one can change the nature of a man. Because after all, how many people do you know who have really changed in their lifetimes?


MACHINE

As far as the nature of man, I'm not so sure that their "true" nature can be changed... Man in truth is an Animal, and is born with certain ingrained characteristics... Life events, and illness can change a persons outlook... But not who and what they truly are... Myself, for instance... When I was younger, I always had the drive to excel at whatever I did... Then, as time went on, I got lazy... I turned to alcohol... I stopped paying attention to my financial and personal obligations, and became homeless... So, would it be then, that my nature was to be a lazy worthless alcoholic bum...? No... I pulled myself back up, and reaffirmed that inner drive that I had all along, and have kept moving forward ever since, as that is my true nature...

As far as the races... Theyre all the same race... Just different legs of the journey...

[InkdMuscle]

I forgot to add to my comment the third nature. There are the ones that know there path and are motivated. Then there are the 'Sick" or the ones that have a path and are misguided or lost a little desire. THen there are the unmotivated and ones without any goals. These are people that don't believe in themselves enough to think it possible to change. Or do not think it worth there effort. These are the people taht can be changed by outside forces. They can be shown a path and can start down it until the motivation comes on to them, but as they progress they will so down their own unique path.

right on CD. spoken really well. i like that break down. its getting printed and posted up bro.

[CuttDeez]

right on CD. spoken really well. i like that break down. its getting printed and posted up bro.

Ha Ha sweet! I am honored! glad I could help

[belladiabla13]

I believe change is something one can only find and allow from within themselves.

He who rejects change is the architect of decay. The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery. ~Harold Wilson

peace..Bella

[TigerAce01]

As the scorpion said...

"...it's in my nature."

-Ace

[Wasteland]

As the scorpion said...

"...it's in my nature."

-Ace

Scorpion and the Frog. Often attributed to Aesop, but who knows the truth? Classic nonethless, lol.

[TigerAce01]

Scorpion and the Frog. Often attributed to Aesop, but who knows the truth? Classic nonethless, lol.

I think it fits perfectly with what we're discussing. One can make improvements to their actions and their habits...but when it comes down to it...your underlying nature will always be there.

-Ace

[Wasteland]

I think it fits perfectly with what we're discussing. One can make improvements to their actions and their habits...but when it comes down to it...your underlying nature will always be there.

-Ace

Even if the consequences are tragic?

[TigerAce01]

Even if the consequences are tragic?

Sadly, in my opinion, yes. We all have negative characteristics that impact us in a discomforting way.

-Ace

[Wasteland]

Sadly, in my opinion, yes. We all have negative characteristics that impact us in a discomforting way.

-Ace

Is it in man's nature to be an alcoholic? A drug addict? Or is this a choice? Is lifting nothing but pure choice or does it get more complicated with, say, muscle dysmorphia?

[TigerAce01]

Is it in man's nature to be an alcoholic? A drug addict? Or is this a choice? Is lifting nothing but pure choice or does it get more complicated with, say, muscle dysmorphia?

That's a very difficult question. I think this entire thread is merely a philosophical discussion, dwelling on a subject that many have argued for thousands of years.

It's like asking whether man is born with these negative characteristics, or if man learns these negative characteristics through the actions of his life.

I know there are some aspects of my nature I feel that I can control...until I can't control myself. When actions like these occur, it leads me to believe my inner most subconscious controls at least a few of my character flaws.

Now with addiction comes an entirely new realm of discussion...perhaps being addicted to a specific substance IS a choice...but being an addict in general very well could be something within themselves choosing the path for them. Some are addicted to substances...others are addicted to gambling...others are addicted to someone or a relationship. Perhaps lifting itself is an addiction? Or perhaps it is a habit, an action that has just become such an integral part of our lives?

Looking at the nature of a certain person is asking a question that may never have the ability to be answered.

-Ace

[Wasteland]

That's a very difficult question. I think this entire thread is merely a philosophical discussion, dwelling on a subject that many have argued for thousands of years.

It's like asking whether man is born with these negative characteristics, or if man learns these negative characteristics through the actions of his life.

I know there are some aspects of my nature I feel that I can control...until I can't control myself. When actions like these occur, it leads me to believe my inner most subconscious controls at least a few of my character flaws.

Now with addiction comes an entirely new realm of discussion...perhaps being addicted to a specific substance IS a choice...but being an addict in general very well could be something within themselves choosing the path for them. Some are addicted to substances...others are addicted to gambling...others are addicted to someone or a relationship. Perhaps lifting itself is an addiction? Or perhaps it is a habit, an action that has just become such an integral part of our lives?

Looking at the nature of a certain person is asking a question that may never have the ability to be answered.

-Ace

Ace, my questions aren't just for you. I'm posing them for the discussion in general. The issues raised here are ontological in nature and therefore, we won't come to any definitive conclusions we can all agree upon. You say there are aspects of your nature that you can't control. This is true for all of us. To me, one of the most interesting questions is what actions do we truly control? Is there such a thing as agency or is it merely an illusion?

[G Diesel]

I think some of us just need to feel pain and loss. Some of us simply can't learn without it.

Some of us have been told their entire lives that they'll never amount to shit and are hell bent to prove the world right. Others take this fact and use it as motivation to prove the world wrong.

Other folks are so weighed down by the pragmatic and practical responsibilities of life that they haven't the luxury to dream or aspire.

Some men want to change the world, some men want to save the world, some men want to destroy the world and some guys want to front like they care about any of that shit just to get laid.

Others would say that guys like us that have the time for such philosophical debates need a job, life, hobby or some combination thereof.

Peace, G

[Wasteland]

Others would say that guys like us that have the time for such philosophical debates need a job, life, hobby or some combination thereof.

Peace, G

So are you saying that collecting toy trains is more rewarding or valuable then pursuing a rigorous life for the mind?

[Machine]

All of your comments are truly appreciated and testimony to the fact that bodybuilding is the thinking man's game. Thank you very much for contributing.

MACHINE

[G Diesel]

So are you saying that collecting toy trains is more rewarding or valuable then pursuing a rigorous life for the mind?

I certainly wouldn't but I'm lucky like that.

I know of many who, because of their status neck deep in the muck and mire of the daily grind, have very little respect for those that live in the world of thoughts and ideas.

As for hobbies, I was just being facetious, I don't think philately for example is a worthwhile substitute for intellectual engagement or debate.

Peace, G

[Wasteland]

I certainly wouldn't but I'm lucky like that.

I know of many who, because of their status neck deep in the muck and mire of the daily grind, have very little respect for those that live in the world of thoughts and ideas.

As for hobbies, I was just being facetious, I don't think philately for example is a worthwhile substitute for intellectual engagement or debate.

Peace, G

As my plumber friend would say, "That don't make it right".

You have roused the ire of philatelists all over the world with your elitist dismissal.

[Maccabee]

I believe that man can change and I have seen it myself. My three brothers used to live their lives for nothing. They were like those club guys. I am proud and honored to say that with enough work and putting in a lot of effort they have all left that lifestyle.

Now they are all married to good women and live a great life. They changed everything about themselves. The way they dress, talk, move. They changed all their friends and they realized their mistakes.

But the truth is that CHANGE is the hardest thing any man can ever do. It is our biggest challenge. It's a lot easier to build a plane then to change one chracterisitic trait, habit, or behavior in a man. IMO.

[J-Dawg]

So are you saying that collecting toy trains is more rewarding or valuable then pursuing a rigorous life for the mind?


I certainly wouldn't but I'm lucky like that.

I know of many who, because of their status neck deep in the muck and mire of the daily grind, have very little respect for those that live in the world of thoughts and ideas.

As for hobbies, I was just being facetious, I don't think philately for example is a worthwhile substitute for intellectual engagement or debate.

Peace, G

Perhaps collecting toy trains could be just as rewarding for some at some point in their life. I think it's up to the individual to take it as far as they want to. Just using toy trains as an example b/c it was mentioned. Say you start out small. Then you learn more and more about the hobby. You begin to collect all sorts of trains and really get into it. You go out and meet with others who share the same passion. In doing so you meet and interact with all sorts of people who enrich your life and they do the same for you. You start your own toy train hobby store and help sell to others who have the same passion. In short, perhaps it's what you yourself make out of it and how far you take things. I think this could be a combo of what's innate (in our genetic makeup) and also based on nurture (what influences have been bestowed upon us in our life to shape who we are).

To get back to Machine's original question. I think the nature of man can be changed (my definition, in short, would be that man is not perfect, nor would ever be perfectible but is generally good). Man in a sense has been formed by nature and all that has taken place throughout the years that humans have populated the earth. Over time, through evolutionary measures, men have been fixed with a number of instincts--instincts for his survival, growth and development. I don't think these will ever change innately. What can change is the factors placed before us--leadership, laws, self interest, greed, immorality--things that change how men react to basic custom and tradition. These such factors can cause the nature of man to be changed in my opinion. I'm still trying to develop my thoughts further b/c the subject takes some time to digest and sink in.

[Wasteland]

Perhaps collecting toy trains could be just as rewarding for some at some point in their life. I think it's up to the individual to take it as far as they want to. Just using toy trains as an example b/c it was mentioned. Say you start out small. Then you learn more and more about the hobby. You begin to collect all sorts of trains and really get into it. You go out and meet with others who share the same passion. In doing so you meet and interact with all sorts of people who enrich your life and they do the same for you. You start your own toy train hobby store and help sell to others who have the same passion. In short, perhaps it's what you yourself make out of it and how far you take things. I think this could be a combo of what's innate (in our genetic makeup) and also based on nurture (what influences have been bestowed upon us in our life to shape who we are).

To get back to Machine's original question. I think the nature of man can be changed (my definition, in short, would be that man is not perfect, nor would ever be perfectible but is generally good). Man in a sense has been formed by nature and all that has taken place throughout the years that humans have populated the earth. Over time, through evolutionary measures, men have been fixed with a number of instincts--instincts for his survival, growth and development. I don't think these will ever change innately. What can change is the factors placed before us--leadership, laws, self interest, greed, immorality--things that change how men react to basic custom and tradition. These such factors can cause the nature of man to be changed in my opinion. I'm still trying to develop my thoughts further b/c the subject takes some time to digest and sink in.

I refer back to my original questions. What is the "nature of man" and how do we define and measure "change"? You could argue that the nature of man is constantly changing. Biologically speaking this is true. If so, the great challenge in life could be our attempt to remain fixed in a world of perpetual flux, no?

[CuttDeez]

I refer back to my original questions. What is the "nature of man" and how do we define and measure "change"? You could argue that the nature of man is constantly changing. Biologically speaking this is true. If so, the great challenge in life could be our attempt to remain fixed in a world of perpetual flux, no?

Do you want to remain fixed? I would think the act of moving in a flux independent of the worlds flux would show a evolution and growth on your part as well as a strong sense of individuality and purpose.

[G Diesel]

Perhaps collecting toy trains could be just as rewarding for some at some point in their life. I think it's up to the individual to take it as far as they want to. Just using toy trains as an example b/c it was mentioned. Say you start out small. Then you learn more and more about the hobby. You begin to collect all sorts of trains and really get into it. You go out and meet with others who share the same passion. In doing so you meet and interact with all sorts of people who enrich your life and they do the same for you. You start your own toy train hobby store and help sell to others who have the same passion. In short, perhaps it's what you yourself make out of it and how far you take things. I think this could be a combo of what's innate (in our genetic makeup) and also based on nurture (what influences have been bestowed upon us in our life to shape who we are).

To get back to Machine's original question. I think the nature of man can be changed (my definition, in short, would be that man is not perfect, nor would ever be perfectible but is generally good). Man in a sense has been formed by nature and all that has taken place throughout the years that humans have populated the earth. Over time, through evolutionary measures, men have been fixed with a number of instincts--instincts for his survival, growth and development. I don't think these will ever change innately. What can change is the factors placed before us--leadership, laws, self interest, greed, immorality--things that change how men react to basic custom and tradition. These such factors can cause the nature of man to be changed in my opinion. I'm still trying to develop my thoughts further b/c the subject takes some time to digest and sink in.

Great point on the value of diverse interests J and how having a passion for something (or anything for that matter) can do much to enrich an individual's life. Great post.

Peace, G

[Wasteland]

Do you want to remain fixed? I would think the act of moving in a flux independent of the worlds flux would show a evolution and growth on your part as well as a strong sense of individuality and purpose.

Isn't this what we all do though? The world around us is in a state of flux. Our bodies are in a perpetual state of change. We perceive ourselves in that world that is constantly changing, where time continues to move inexorably forward. We can't control that which remains external to us. That lack of control frightens us because we believe ourselves to be agents of our own destiny and free will. So we try to control what we can, or what we believe we can. What we eat. How we shape our bodies. By exerting this control, we are looking for something to anchor us, something to moor us in this frightening world. The iron is one such representation of that. The iron is a kind of constant that ties us to a certain reality. I'm not saying I believe this. Just another way to think about change.

[Dingo]

Can one change the nature of a man?

I do alot of work with young people who are running three races.

1) The race to catch up

2) The race to keep up.

3) The race to get ahead.

I am wondering if anyone has any opinions on the nature of men...and if they feel that one can change the nature of a man. Because after all, how many people do you know who have really changed in their lifetimes?


MACHINE
I feel most of mankind is running all three races at the same time. The nature of modern man almost dictates this. Each of us within our own circle of influence wants to keep up with our peers, sometimes feeling like we have stumbled and must catch up to them, and always trying to get ahead of them. Once we accomplish this we find ourselves in an entirely new circle of influence and we start the cycle all over again.

Now as far as changing the nature of an individual man, yes it can be done. However, change is not something that is always a light switch, to steal a quote from one of my favorite movies:
"You know the great thing, though, is that change can be so constant you don't even feel the difference until there is one. It can be so slow that you don't even notice that your life is better or worse, until it is. Or it can just blow you away, make you something different in an instant. It happened to me."
From the movie Life as a House

[Crash]

...In respose to the initial question...The answer is yes and no...On cannot force Change upon any man, as all we can control is ourselves and our actions...We can influence Change within people, should they seek it...However, they must be receptive to the opportunity...

...Until they reach the age of accountability, young people have no concept of self-empowerment...Therefore the methods of instruction that we choose to influence and instruct them are effective...However, once they dawn on the concept of self-realization and self-empowerment, our methods become less effective as they realize that they have the power to accept or reject the stimulus or instruction at hand...

...Deeper into this subject is the second statement, the individuals who run the three races...The Race to Catch Up, signifies the indivuidual who is still grasping the concept of self-empowerment...Blame is the most useful tool at his command, as most everything is not his fault...They are living in the past...The Race to Keep Up, is the indiviudal who is living in the moment...While they do grasp the concept of Accountablity, and Empowerment...They often get twisted up in the game, sacrificing long term happiness for immediate satisfacton...They are living in the present, or the moment...The Race to Get Ahead, is the individual who has truly grasped the concept of Accountability and Empowerment. They realize that anything is possible should the choose to apply themselves, and pay the cost...They are planning for the future...

...The Twelve Steppers got it right...One should always seek to Change the things they can...Accept the things they cannot...And Always seek the wisdom to know the difference...As for Men changing their nature, men can and do change, once they realize that the power is within them, and that anything is possible...If you are willing to pay the price...

...Strength and Honor...

[CuttDeez]

Isn't this what we all do though? The world around us is in a state of flux. Our bodies are in a perpetual state of change. We perceive ourselves in that world that is constantly changing, where time continues to move inexorably forward. We can't control that which remains external to us. That lack of control frightens us because we believe ourselves to be agents of our own destiny and free will. So we try to control what we can, or what we believe we can. What we eat. How we shape our bodies. By exerting this control, we are looking for something to anchor us, something to moor us in this frightening world. The iron is one such representation of that. The iron is a kind of constant that ties us to a certain reality. I'm not saying I believe this. Just another way to think about change.

It is an interesting take and for the purposes of discussion I would respond like this.

Yes we do try and control the only things we feel we can control. But instead of looking at it in a pesemistic light I see it as being in control of all that really matters to me. So instead of looking at is as a frantic individual in a wordwind of change clinging to anything that he might be able to control I see it as a hurricane of change moving outside, while I am inside my house. A sturdy foundations of the things that I care about and wish to control.

[J-Dawg]

I refer back to my original questions. What is the "nature of man" and how do we define and measure "change"? You could argue that the nature of man is constantly changing. Biologically speaking this is true. If so, the great challenge in life could be our attempt to remain fixed in a world of perpetual flux, no?

I don't know exactly how to define the nature of man, however from studying human history I come away with the fact that man will never be perfect, he cannot be perfectible and somehow was formed by nature but remains relatively bound by certain customs and traditions that he has learned over time on earth. Maybe someone else can help us come up with a better definition b/c my mind can't quite pinpoint what I'm trying to say. I guess depending on what your definition of nature is, man is constantly evolving, however, I think that the nature of man is somewhat constant, with the factors that I mentioned in my post above--leadership, laws, self interest, greed, immorality, politics, economics, too much information--these things are what can change how men react to basic custom and tradition, thus factors that can change the innate nature of man. Man however knows right from wrong (this separates us from others in the animal kingdom), whether man chooses to do the right things over time is the question that only time can answer.

[Wasteland]

It is an interesting take and for the purposes of discussion I would respond like this.

Yes we do try and control the only things we feel we can control. But instead of looking at it in a pesemistic light I see it as being in control of all that really matters to me. So instead of looking at is as a frantic individual in a wordwind of change clinging to anything that he might be able to control I see it as a hurricane of change moving outside, while I am inside my house. A sturdy foundations of the things that I care about and wish to control.

Who said anything about pessimism? More like pragmatism, lol. Seriously though, there is a long historical tradition, one which valorizes change, progress, progressivism, etc. This tendency runs through philosophy, science, religion, art--in short, all branches of human knowledge and understanding. That is, all human constructs. Do you think it's a coincidence? In this paradigm, stasis is equated with stagnation or even death. Change is posited as good. Anyway, I was just trying to turn this equation on its head. Maybe real progress is no progress at all.

[Wasteland]

I don't know exactly how to define the nature of man, however from studying human history I come away with the fact that man will never be perfect, he cannot be perfectible and somehow was formed by nature but remains relatively bound by certain customs and traditions that he has learned over time on earth. Maybe someone else can help us come up with a better definition b/c my mind can't quite pinpoint what I'm trying to say. I guess depending on what your definition of nature is, man is constantly evolving, however, I think that the nature of man is somewhat constant, with the factors that I mentioned in my post above--leadership, laws, self interest, greed, immorality, politics, economics, too much information--these things are what can change how men react to basic custom and tradition, thus factors that can change the innate nature of man. Man however knows right from wrong (this separates us from others in the animal kingdom), whether man chooses to do the right things over time is the question that only time can answer.

Why can't man be perfect? Maybe we should redefine what perfection, and its pursuit, is? Your natural state of man sounds awfully like something out of Hobbes or Rousseau.

[Hoomgar]

I'm just here for the free food.


Not! ha ha!


Hey Machine, "changed" having so many qualifying definitions in each mind is almost imposable to determine but based off the dictionary being taken literally only, I for one, have changed. I'm not even close to the same person I was in my younger years. I can't tell you with 100% certainty what all changes are for the better and what all changes were for the good but I do know that the biggest changes that I have made are the ones that mattered most to me and my family. Change is good, never fear it.




As for hobbies, I was just being facetious, I don't think "philately" for example is a worthwhile substitute for intellectual engagement or debate.


It was bound to happen sooner or later. I've been holding my own up until this post right here G. You've finally made me open the dictionary and look one up :) ha ha! Good writing. Keep it rolling...

Hg

[J-Dawg]

Why can't man be perfect? Maybe we should redefine what perfection, and its pursuit, is? Your natural state of man sounds awfully like something out of Hobbes or Rousseau.

Man can't be perfect b/c imperfection is in his nature and is not a divine being. I think my viewpoint is more like Calvin and Hobbes, lol. I kid, I kid.

[Wasteland]

Man can't be perfect b/c imperfection is in his nature and is not a divine being. I think my viewpoint is more like Calvin and Hobbes, lol. I kid, I kid.

I understand what you're saying, but why can't man be perfect? How are we arriving at this concept? Because that very definition is shaped in large by what?

I like Calvin and Hobbes. Much easier than reading Thomas Hobbes, lol. And more entertaining too.

[Necromatrix]

I understand what you're saying, but why can't man be perfect? How are we arriving at this concept? Because that very definition is shaped in large by what?

I like Calvin and Hobbes. Much easier than reading Thomas Hobbes, lol. And more entertaining too.

There is no one ideal for perfection because everyone has diffrent views of what is "perfect". One might become perfect in thier own mind, but that is usually relegated to an over active ego. However, if such a person arrived at that conclusion they would cease to strive and thus not race to catch up, keep up, nor get ahead.

In general though, I think the concept of perfection is just that, a concept, and not something attainable. Man always wants more. What I view as perfection, once reached would not seem so perfect because there is more to be had, or to do. Life is a series of evolutions and how one reacts to them. If we stop evolving we become stale and outdated, hardly perfect.

[Wasteland]

There is no one ideal for perfection because everyone has diffrent views of what is "perfect". One might become perfect in thier own mind, but that is usually relegated to an over active ego. However, if such a person arrived at that conclusion they would cease to strive and thus not race to catch up, keep up, nor get ahead.

In general though, I think the concept of perfection is just that, a concept, and not something attainable. Man always wants more. What I view as perfection, once reached would not seem so perfect because there is more to be had, or to do. Life is a series of evolutions and how one reacts to them. If we stop evolving we become stale and outdated, hardly perfect.

Wow, this is an old thread that got bumped. You're responding to me but I forget what my train of thought was, lol.

But in general, I agree with you. The problem is, we tend to want to think of terms as universal--concepts like perfection or good or evil. What good for me may be evil for another. My conception of good and evil are always constantly in flux, just like my idea of perfection.

I'm not sure why, maybe it's just human nature, but we want to believe in some form of universality. Maybe it's comforting. Truth is, this is merely an illusion. As you're saying, everything is filtered through subjectivity and subjective experience. Therefore abstract concepts like "perfection" and our ability to nail down a single definition we can all agree upon is futile.

[Necromatrix]

Yeah, I was a bit worried about it being so outdated, but I went for it any way. -shrug- Gotta love a good philosophical discussion from time to time...

It is rather amusing how people need to feel as part of a group, yet individuals at the same time. We sometimes cross bounderies and apply our personal views as a blanket for others. Meanwhile some individual's thoughts are controlled by the masses to the point that they lose thier own view. Sorry... Just rambling now...

[Wasteland]

Yeah, I was a bit worried about it being so outdated, but I went for it any way. -shrug- Gotta love a good philosophical discussion from time to time...

It is rather amusing how people need to feel as part of a group, yet individuals at the same time. We sometimes cross bounderies and apply our personal views as a blanket for others. Meanwhile some individual's thoughts are controlled by the masses to the point that they lose thier own view. Sorry... Just rambling now...

Yes, this is it I think. You can't have one without the other, can you? Individuality cannot exist without the group, and the relationship is paradoxical.

[spanish.iron]

I believe that a man's nature can change...but only under immense stress. Most people don't want to change and will never change, all thanks to a society that's all about "the easy way". For a man to change... something intense needs to happen; something traumatic needs to stimulate some part of their consciousness.

Steel will only change form under a lot of heat, pressure, and a big ass hammer.

[xMATT182x]

I feel that all men and women are born with the potential to shape, form, sculpt and change ourselves and become what we want in our hearts and minds. Human nature is partially predetermined but it also left in the hands and hearts of the person themselves. All events, all situations have effect on us no matter if you truly believe it or not. Some more notably drastic and forming then others but all have their course, all have their power.

I've learned that although the course and power are initiated, they do no have a predetermined end. We have the power and the tools ourselves to define the road and decide where it will end and what you will become because of it. Some events and aspects in life and of human nature are out of our control but how we react to it and what we become is up to us. You have the option and abililty to mold that energy and to rechannel it as a force is contructive and not destructive. As far as human nature goes we have our beginning, we find our path and we decide our end. Thats the power everyone has.

[craig028]

[QUOTE=Mr. Dead;775872]As far as the nature of man, I'm not so sure that their "true" nature can be changed... Man in truth is an Animal, and is born with certain ingrained characteristics... spokenly realy well as far as peoples point of view on certain subjects or their outlook on life i think your view can change but when it comes down to who you are as a person and your defining characteristics you may change them in public to adapt to your situation and the poeple your arround but come crunch time everybodys true colors show

[msktyshha]

In my opinion everyone is born with the same "nature" basically a blank slate. it's the society that changes or molds a person's "nature". Now if you want to change a persons "nature" then you have to influence them and keep then in an environment that can mold them to be a new person. You can change them, but it all depends on how old the person is. If it's someone who's young and hasn't been hardened by the society then you can mold them easily, but if it's someone who has lived for quite a while then you'll have to do some serious work on them. If a hundred blows don't bend them out, don't give up on them cause maybe the hundred and first will do the job.

[squattingtillipuke]

[QUOTE=Crash;777431...Until they reach the age of accountability, young people have no concept of self-empowerment...Therefore the methods of instruction that we choose to influence and instruct them are effective...However, once they dawn on the concept of self-realization and self-empowerment, our methods become less effective as they realize that they have the power to accept or reject the stimulus or instruction at hand...[/QUOTE]

Crash, I think that this in of itself is debatable. I think that the child's upbringing is what determines when they recognize this and if they are held to a higher responsibility in life. I will tell you that a child growing up on a farm understands this a hell of a lot sooner than a child brought up playing his Xbox all day.



BACK to the OP

I do believe that people can change to a point, and that point isn't predetermined by how we are made. I truly believe that each and every person will react to some type of stimilus in their life whether they react negatively or positively is time dependant. By that I mean we could react completely different to the same situation depending on the day that we are having. We could have a perfect opportunity to change our life for the better but because the boss shit on us today we say fuck it and pass it by.

[7]

Nature vs. nurture. No chance this question will ever be definitively answered here or elsewhere.