Milk, Or The Forgotten Basic?

[Wasteland]

So often I see lifters trying new fads and the latest hyped craze. This applies to exercises, diets and supplements. Whatever happened to the basics? You know, the kind that's been around for 20, 30, or even 40 years? In that time, our bodies haven't changed. We still respond to new stimulus, whether it be weights or food.

One of the most basic of all foods is milk. Today, you have a lot of different choices when it comes to milk. Back in the 50s, 60s and 70s, competitive bodybuilders used to drink by the gallon. They didn't worry about fat, lactose or other sugars in the milk. They just drank it and grew.

Some have returned to the basics and things. Think of the Squats & Milk Program for example. Does milk still make sense today? According to one study done in 2007 (published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition), it appears so. Researchers studied 56 weightlifters ages 18-30 and followed them on a rigorous 5-day weight training plan for 12-weeks. Following lifting (postworkout), the subjects either had two cups of skim milk, and equivalent (protein and energy) soy beverage, and an equivalent (energy) carb drink.

At the end of the 12-week trial, the researchers observed that the milk group lost twice 2 lb of fat, while the carbohydrate group lost only 1 lb. The soy group lost no fat. Also, the lean mass gains was larger for the milk group than for the carbohydrate or soy groups.

Upon the study's conclusion, researchers found that the milk drinking group had lost nearly twice as much fat - two pounds - while the carbohydrate beverage group lost one pound of fat. Those drinking soy lost no fat. At the same time, the gain in muscle was much greater among the milk drinkers than either the soy (2.5 lb more muscle) or carbohydrate (3.3 lb more muscle) beverage study participants. According to Dr. Phillips, "I think the practical implications of these results are obvious: if you want to gain muscle and lose fat as a result of working out, drink milk."

As reported in the first phase of the study, the milk drinking group came out on top in terms of muscle gain with an estimated 40 per cent or 2.5 pounds more muscle mass than the soy beverage drinkers. In addition, this group gained 63 per cent or 3.3 pounds, more muscle mass than the carbohydrate beverage drinkers.

Lose fat and gain muscle? The answer may be in your fridge. A cup of milk has approximately 8g of protein and 12g of carbs. With milk post-workout, you have both your macros covered.

[CuttDeez]

So often I see lifters trying new fads and the latest hyped craze. This applies to exercises, diets and supplements. Whatever happened to the basics? You know, the kind that's been around for 20, 30, or even 40 years? In that time, our bodies haven't changed. We still respond to new stimulus, whether it be weights or food.

One of the most basic of all foods is milk. Today, you have a lot of different choices when it comes to milk. Back in the 50s, 60s and 70s, competitive bodybuilders used to drink by the gallon. They didn't worry about fat, lactose or other sugars in the milk. They just drank it and grew.

Some have returned to the basics and things. Think of the Squats & Milk Program for example. Does milk still make sense today? According to one study done in 2007 (published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition), it appears so. Researchers studied 56 weightlifters ages 18-30 and followed them on a rigorous 5-day weight training plan for 12-weeks. Following lifting (postworkout), the subjects either had two cups of skim milk, and equivalent (protein and energy) soy beverage, and an equivalent (energy) carb drink.

At the end of the 12-week trial, the researchers observed that the milk group lost twice 2 lb of fat, while the carbohydrate group lost only 1 lb. The soy group lost no fat. Also, the lean mass gains was larger for the milk group than for the carbohydrate or soy groups.

Upon the study's conclusion, researchers found that the milk drinking group had lost nearly twice as much fat - two pounds - while the carbohydrate beverage group lost one pound of fat. Those drinking soy lost no fat. At the same time, the gain in muscle was much greater among the milk drinkers than either the soy (2.5 lb more muscle) or carbohydrate (3.3 lb more muscle) beverage study participants. According to Dr. Phillips, "I think the practical implications of these results are obvious: if you want to gain muscle and lose fat as a result of working out, drink milk."

As reported in the first phase of the study, the milk drinking group came out on top in terms of muscle gain with an estimated 40 per cent or 2.5 pounds more muscle mass than the soy beverage drinkers. In addition, this group gained 63 per cent or 3.3 pounds, more muscle mass than the carbohydrate beverage drinkers.

Lose fat and gain muscle? The answer may be in your fridge. A cup of milk has approximately 8g of protein and 12g of carbs. With milk post-workout, you have both your macros covered.



Strong point. I have a friend that played college football and is now a free agent for the packers. He is huge. 6'4 about 295 and he ran a 4.7. He Cleaned 370!!! After everyone of his workouts he would drink a big thing of chocolate milk. He swore by it and look where he is now!!!!

[Fury317]

Milk is natures protein shake. Drink up fellas.

[Wasteland]

Strong point. I have a friend that played college football and is now a free agent for the packers. He is huge. 6'4 about 295 and he ran a 4.7. He Cleaned 370!!! After everyone of his workouts he would drink a big thing of chocolate milk. He swore by it and look where he is now!!!!

This is an example of the real world benefits of milk, as opposed to the study I presented, lol.

Why have so many young lifters forgotten about the basics? Why the need to try the latest craze or hyped program?

[GJN5002]

thats why whey is so great, its like milk extract.

[Wasteland]

thats why whey is so great, its like milk extract.

It's made from milk but to me, it's not milk exactly. Milk has both protein and carbohydrates. The carbohydrates and fat are largely removed from WPC and especially WPI. In the process, other nutrients are removed as well. So yes, it's made from milk, but it's not whole milk.

[GJN5002]

It's made from milk but to me, it's not milk exactly. Milk has both protein and carbohydrates. The carbohydrates and fat are largely removed from WPC and especially WPI. In the process, other nutrients are removed as well. So yes, it's made from milk, but it's not whole milk.

true, you know me, I take the carbs out of everything haha.

Are you into raw milk?

[J-Dawg]

So often I see lifters trying new fads and the latest hyped craze. This applies to exercises, diets and supplements. Whatever happened to the basics? You know, the kind that's been around for 20, 30, or even 40 years? In that time, our bodies haven't changed. We still respond to new stimulus, whether it be weights or food.

One of the most basic of all foods is milk. Today, you have a lot of different choices when it comes to milk. Back in the 50s, 60s and 70s, competitive bodybuilders used to drink by the gallon. They didn't worry about fat, lactose or other sugars in the milk. They just drank it and grew.

Some have returned to the basics and things. Think of the Squats & Milk Program for example. Does milk still make sense today? According to one study done in 2007 (published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition), it appears so. Researchers studied 56 weightlifters ages 18-30 and followed them on a rigorous 5-day weight training plan for 12-weeks. Following lifting (postworkout), the subjects either had two cups of skim milk, and equivalent (protein and energy) soy beverage, and an equivalent (energy) carb drink.

At the end of the 12-week trial, the researchers observed that the milk group lost twice 2 lb of fat, while the carbohydrate group lost only 1 lb. The soy group lost no fat. Also, the lean mass gains was larger for the milk group than for the carbohydrate or soy groups.

Upon the study's conclusion, researchers found that the milk drinking group had lost nearly twice as much fat - two pounds - while the carbohydrate beverage group lost one pound of fat. Those drinking soy lost no fat. At the same time, the gain in muscle was much greater among the milk drinkers than either the soy (2.5 lb more muscle) or carbohydrate (3.3 lb more muscle) beverage study participants. According to Dr. Phillips, "I think the practical implications of these results are obvious: if you want to gain muscle and lose fat as a result of working out, drink milk."

As reported in the first phase of the study, the milk drinking group came out on top in terms of muscle gain with an estimated 40 per cent or 2.5 pounds more muscle mass than the soy beverage drinkers. In addition, this group gained 63 per cent or 3.3 pounds, more muscle mass than the carbohydrate beverage drinkers.

Lose fat and gain muscle? The answer may be in your fridge. A cup of milk has approximately 8g of protein and 12g of carbs. With milk post-workout, you have both your macros covered.

Milk is indeed one of the basics. Nowadays with all of the various food choices/supplements presented before us, we often second guess the use of basics. Milk should not be forgotten by bodybuilders and the people in general. Same things with eggs. Every week I stock up on milk and eggs (also fruits and veggies) from a local farm that I shop at. Quality stuff.

[Wasteland]

Milk is indeed one of the basics. Nowadays with all of the various food choices/supplements presented before us, we often second guess the use of basics. Milk should not be forgotten by bodybuilders and the people in general. Same things with eggs. Every week I stock up on milk and eggs (also fruits and veggies) from a local farm that I shop at. Quality stuff.

It's hard to go wrong with milk and eggs, J-Dawg.

[J-Dawg]

true, you know me, I take the carbs out of everything haha.

Are you into raw milk?

But carbs (the right sources of course) are the best part, lol. But don't let me divert the topic.

Raw milk is great stuff. I generally don't buy it b/c of cost. I try to balance the quality of the food that I purchase and its cost which at times isn't easy. But raw milk, now that's real 70s bodybuilding food.

[CuttDeez]

In my mind this all goes back to the fact that some people do nut understand that supplements are "SUPPLEMENTS." They should help and support a diet and workout regime. They are not the most important element.

[J-Dawg]

It's hard to go wrong with milk and eggs, J-Dawg.

Indeed. It's great for bodybuilders whether on a budget or not.

[Wasteland]

true, you know me, I take the carbs out of everything haha.

Are you into raw milk?

Yes I do, gjn5002. You have an irrational fear of carbs, lol.

I know many bodybuilders who are disciples of raw milk. Gironda himself was. I also know that many ascribe benefits to raw milk that border on the miraculous (though there are some studies to possibly support raw milk use for asthma and certain allergies). I also know that raw milk is growing in popularity today. The upside is milk in its more natural state. The downside is the risk for listeria, salmonella, and E. coli. I believe twenty-three states ban the sale of raw milk for human consumption. But I suppose it's human nature to want what you can't have, lol.

[theharjmann]

what im about to say is not gonna be liked by most people but i shall say it anyhow!

i dont believe the milk we buy from supermarkets is "milk". Milk from the cow's udder....now THAT is milk.

With the amount of chemical processes it goes under i just dont feel i can call it milk.

Personally (this is me only...may be different for 99% of people out there), when i include milk in my diet i put on unwanted weight and no more muscle than if i didnt drink it. I just dont feel the carbs in milk help me....thats just me though.

The bodybuilders in teh 70s....they lived off milk....but the milk then wasnt like the milk is now....it underwent far less chemical processes....if milk now is what it was liek then....i would be drinking it in my sleep!

[Wasteland]

what im about to say is not gonna be liked by most people but i shall say it anyhow!

i dont believe the milk we buy from supermarkets is "milk". Milk from the cow's udder....now THAT is milk.

With the amount of chemical processes it goes under i just dont feel i can call it milk.

Personally (this is me only...may be different for 99% of people out there), when i include milk in my diet i put on unwanted weight and no more muscle than if i didnt drink it. I just dont feel the carbs in milk help me....thats just me though.

The bodybuilders in teh 70s....they lived off milk....but the milk then wasnt like the milk is now....it underwent far less chemical processes....if milk now is what it was liek then....i would be drinking it in my sleep!

Now were entering the territory of semantics and what constitutes "milk". Straight from the udder? That is certainly what I would call "raw milk", and as far as I know, there are no laws against drinking milk right from the source, lol.

What "chemical processes" are you referring to exactly? And chances are, the carbs in the milk is not what lead to your "unwanted weight" I'm thinking.

You could argue real milk is milk that has not been pasteurized, or homogenized, or whatever. There are dairies that do not homogenize their milk and only pasteurize their milk at low temperatures (for longer periods). So, what is real milk? Milk that is unfiltered and raw with all the goodies and baddies (like bacteria)? Or milk that is as natural as you can get without the e coli for example?

[theharjmann]

Now were entering the territory of semantics and what constitutes "milk". Straight from the udder? That is certainly what I would call "raw milk", and as far as I know, there are no laws against drinking milk right from the source, lol.

What "chemical processes" are you referring to exactly? And chances are, the carbs in the milk is not what lead to your "unwanted weight" I'm thinking.

You could argue real milk is milk that has not been pasteurized, or homogenized, or whatever. There are dairies that do not homogenize their milk and only pasteurize their milk at low temperatures (for longer periods). So, what is real milk? Milk that is unfiltered and raw with all the goodies and baddies (like bacteria)? Or milk that is as natural as you can get without the e coli for example?

you lot are gonna think im fucked up but here goes LOL....

my family are farmers in northern India. When i go to visit, the milk i drink is straight from the udder into a pot which is then brought to the boil. Once its cooled i then drink it....mmmmmmmmmm

Now that is what you call raw milk!

Ive also tried it directly from the udder....squeeze it into a cup and drink it.....hardcore LOL

[Fury317]

what im about to say is not gonna be liked by most people but i shall say it anyhow!

i dont believe the milk we buy from supermarkets is "milk". Milk from the cow's udder....now THAT is milk.

With the amount of chemical processes it goes under i just dont feel i can call it milk.

Personally (this is me only...may be different for 99% of people out there), when i include milk in my diet i put on unwanted weight and no more muscle than if i didnt drink it. I just dont feel the carbs in milk help me....thats just me though.

The bodybuilders in teh 70s....they lived off milk....but the milk then wasnt like the milk is now....it underwent far less chemical processes....if milk now is what it was liek then....i would be drinking it in my sleep!


WAIT!!!!! You can drink in your sleep? Please share the secret so I can avoid any catabolic state...

[Wasteland]

you lot are gonna think im fucked up but here goes LOL....

my family are farmers in northern India. When i go to visit, the milk i drink is straight from the udder into a pot which is then brought to the boil. Once its cooled i then drink it....mmmmmmmmmm

Now that is what you call raw milk!

Ive also tried it directly from the udder....squeeze it into a cup and drink it.....hardcore LOL

Brought to a boil? This is essentially pasteurization theharjmann.

[Ironjaw]

make ya think what te hell arnie was talkin bout when he said milk is for babies.... i drink alot of it and truthfully im a big boy ....so im not sure why ppl avoid it

[theharjmann]

Brought to a boil? This is essentially pasteurization theharjmann.

yeah

but i dont for one second believe that the milk in cartons that we buy from the store has been simnply brought to the boil and put in cartons.

i dont wanna get into beef about this because i know that loads of people swear by the milk available today...and i know it helps them grow....ive seen it....im just saying it doesnt work for me.

[adidas]

Ironically I still get bamboozled here when ever I mention casien/whey mixes or milk period for PWO...I find it fucking hilarious...

[Wasteland]

Ironically I still get bamboozled here when ever I mention casien/whey mixes or milk period for PWO...I find it fucking hilarious...

Bamboozled? What do you mean?

[N. Motta]

It doesn't work for me either. Studies have shown that after the earliest years, humans have a somewhat allergic reaction to dairy. One of the side effects of the allergic reaction is retaining water, great if you want to "look big," bad if you want to actually look like a bodybuilder. I never used to believe that, until I took dairy out of my diet. For me, it was on point.

[Wasteland]

It doesn't work for me either. Studies have shown that after the earliest years, humans have a somewhat allergic reaction to dairy. One of the side effects of the allergic reaction is retaining water, great if you want to "look big," bad if you want to actually look like a bodybuilder. I never used to believe that, until I took dairy out of my diet. For me, it was on point.

Milk is highly allergenic, that's true. But for the purposes of this conversation, iwontquit, we're bracketing that aside. If you are allergic to milk, then obviously, you have to employ a different strategy here.

[IronWilson]

i dont wanna get into beef about this because i know that loads of people swear by the milk available today...and i know it helps them grow....ive seen it....im just saying it doesnt work for me.

I think milk sucks, lol. It makes me sick and tastes like shit.... But I think it can help you grow....maybe...

[Wasteland]

I think milk sucks, lol. It makes me sick and tastes like shit.... But I think it can help you grow....maybe...

Are you allergic to milk?

[GJN5002]

It doesn't work for me either. Studies have shown that after the earliest years, humans have a somewhat allergic reaction to dairy. One of the side effects of the allergic reaction is retaining water, great if you want to "look big," bad if you want to actually look like a bodybuilder. I never used to believe that, until I took dairy out of my diet. For me, it was on point.

ironically many people dont have any adverse reaction to raw milk. there is a theory that pasteurizing milk kills the bacteria in it whihc in turn release hystemines (allrgens), whether or not its true I dont know.

ALso they make lactose free milks.

[LegendKillerJosh]

make ya think what te hell arnie was talkin bout when he said milk is for babies.... i drink alot of it and truthfully im a big boy ....so im not sure why ppl avoid it

"Milk is for babies, when you grow up you get to drink beer"

[Wasteland]

ironically many people dont have any adverse reaction to raw milk. there is a theory that pasteurizing milk kills the bacteria in it whihc in turn release hystemines (allrgens), whether or not its true I dont know.

ALso they make lactose free milks.

Can you cite evidence to support this, something other than anecdotal feedback from those who support raw milk use?

The truth is, milk allergies don't arise out of the bacteria that may or may not be in milk, but from the predominant fractions in bovine milk (fractions not found in human milk). What you're saying about histamines sounds like nothing more than propaganda espoused by the raw milk proponents, lol. But I could be wrong.

[Sphinx]

Just a question for clarification purposes, is it not advisable not to get too much fat in post workout? Or maybe I'm just judging the fat content in milk too high?

By the way, anyone know where I can buy raw milk? Be it online or in person - I'm in Ontario, Canada by the way - I'm want to try something whole and pure and not tampered with.

[widdlewade44]

By the way, anyone know where I can buy raw milk? Be it online or in person - I'm in Ontario, Canada by the way - I'm want to try something whole and pure and not tampered with.


http://www.realmilk.com/where-other.html#can

Kevin
widdlewade44

[ronnie]

make ya think what te hell arnie was talkin bout when he said milk is for babies.... i drink alot of it and truthfully im a big boy ....so im not sure why ppl avoid it

of course arnie says milk is for babies... i bet arnie drank alot of milk. think about how he tries to mislead all of his competitors.

[IronWilson]

Are you allergic to milk?

Slightly, but I never liked it, the taste and the way it feels in your stomach just doesn't sit right with me. Although I will say that I have a weaker bone structure because I didn't drink milk as a kid. I wish I would have had something to replace it. But back then (y'know the late 80's, early 90's) we didn't have milk substitutes.

[Ironjaw]

"Milk is for babies, when you grow up you get to drink beer"

funny quote since beer is 1 gigantic beverage of empty calories and carbs


of course arnie says milk is for babies... i bet arnie drank alot of milk. think about how he tries to mislead all of his competitors.

ye never was a fan of him....

[Sphinx]

http://www.realmilk.com/where-other.html#can

Kevin
widdlewade44

YEAH! Thanks a million! One of those places is only about an hours drive from me :D

So my original question, is it not bad to be taking in fat immediately post workout? Or does milk not have that high a content of fat?

[ronnie]

Just a question for clarification purposes, is it not advisable not to get too much fat in post workout? Or maybe I'm just judging the fat content in milk too high?

By the way, anyone know where I can buy raw milk? Be it online or in person - I'm in Ontario, Canada by the way - I'm want to try something whole and pure and not tampered with.

there are alot of dairy farms in our area, you could probably go knock on a door and ask. i know a few families that are all dairy farmers, i may just ask for some raw goodness next week and see how much they can give me.

[widdlewade44]

YEAH! Thanks a million! One of those places is only about an hours drive from me :D

So my original question, is it not bad to be taking in fat immediately post workout? Or does milk not have that high a content of fat?

It's cool that one of the providers isn't too far from you.

I would say that the fat content (which is higher in raw milk) and how you personally handle it depends on your body's metabolism. Even pasteurized milk has a decent amount of fat.

If it works for you, do it. And only you can answer that question...

Kevin
widdlewade44

[Wasteland]

Slightly, but I never liked it, the taste and the way it feels in your stomach just doesn't sit right with me. Although I will say that I have a weaker bone structure because I didn't drink milk as a kid. I wish I would have had something to replace it. But back then (y'know the late 80's, early 90's) we didn't have milk substitutes.

If you're allergic or lactose-intolerant or both, definitely, it won't sit right.

[adidas]

Bamboozled? What do you mean?

I get shitted on...it gets rejected as crap...everyone KNOWS you have to have Whey only PWO...milk digests to slowly PWO to be of use...the typical responses.

[Sphinx]

there are alot of dairy farms in our area, you could probably go knock on a door and ask. i know a few families that are all dairy farmers, i may just ask for some raw goodness next week and see how much they can give me.

Let me know how you make out, I've been keeping my eyes open but haven't found anything yet.

Except for eggs, I've finally found a source for some decent eggs from a farm. I'm paying less than at the grocery store, and these eggs come in crazy BIG sizes. I'm sick of these companies advertising eggs sized medium when I know they are small cause any smaller than what they already are and I'd be getting some kinda tweety bird sized eggs or something.


It's cool that one of the providers isn't too far from you.

I would say that the fat content (which is higher in raw milk) and how you personally handle it depends on your body's metabolism. Even pasteurized milk has a decent amount of fat.

If it works for you, do it. And only you can answer that question...

Kevin
widdlewade44

I understand that, but I'm talking generally, some quick acting carbs post workout and some protein, but not too much fat right?

[jon_carter13]

If you're allergic or lactose-intolerant or both, definitely, it won't sit right.

Sadly I am lactose-intolerant, BUT I drink Soy Milk. Honestly, Soy Milk tastes great, and it has valuable nutriants. Not as much as raw milk, but I am willing to make up for lost vitamins through Pak.

[ronnie]

Let me know how you make out, I've been keeping my eyes open but haven't found anything yet.

Except for eggs, I've finally found a source for some decent eggs from a farm. I'm paying less than at the grocery store, and these eggs come in crazy BIG sizes. I'm sick of these companies advertising eggs sized medium when I know they are small cause any smaller than what they already are and I'd be getting some kinda tweety bird sized eggs or something.

my dad comes home with some monster sized eggs once in a while, im not sure where he gets em but they are about as round as a tennis ball.

[IronWilson]

Despite being only slightly lactose intolerant (which I think is fading with age.), I want to try raw milk sometime.

[adidas]

It's cool that one of the providers isn't too far from you.

I would say that the fat content (which is higher in raw milk) and how you personally handle it depends on your body's metabolism. Even pasteurized milk has a decent amount of fat.

If it works for you, do it. And only you can answer that question...

Kevin
widdlewade44

Fat content of Raw milk not the same as fat content of pasterized milk

Raw = MCT fats
Pasterized = shit

[Wasteland]

I get shitted on...it gets rejected as crap...everyone KNOWS you have to have Whey only PWO...milk digests to slowly PWO to be of use...the typical responses.

Whey only postworkout? I would disagree with that statement as well.

[Hollow]

my dad comes home with some monster sized eggs once in a while, im not sure where he gets em but they are about as round as a tennis ball.

The secretary here at work brings in some monster sized eggs, not quite as big as tennis balls but bigger then what you’ll find at any store.

I don’t know about the area you’re in Sphinx but if you can hit up a local farmers market, I am sure you could easily find a source for raw milk.

[Wasteland]

Fat content of Raw milk not the same as fat content of pasterized milk

Raw = MCT fats
Pasterized = shit

Do you know how much of the MCT are lost during the processing of pasteurized/homogenzied milk? I suppose if you really care about MCT, you avoid skim or fat-free cow milk, or better yet, would drink goat milk, which has up to twice as much MCT as cow milk.

[wedge]

http://www.realmilk.com/where-other.html#can

Kevin
widdlewade44

Thanks for the link. The question of where to get raw milk was on my mind the whole time i was reading this thread.
Is the taste of raw milk any different than the store milk?

[adidas]

Do you know how much of the MCT are lost during the processing of pasteurized/homogenzied milk? I suppose if you really care about MCT, you would drink goat milk, which has up to twice as much MCT as cow milk.

for what I understand the Pasteurization process destroys the Saturated fat/MCT chain...they stay as a Sat Fat but are no longer MCT. If one was so inclined they could use FF milk I suppose and supp in coconut oil or MCT oil for the fat...

Raw goat milk? or pasteurized goat milk? I would think if its pastuerized it will destroy the MCT chain as well in goats milk.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Accessory Work.....8/4/09 at 8PM

Trained with Big Wides

Barbell Curls - barx10, 65x8, 95x5, 115x6, 135x4, 135x4, 135x4, 135x5, 135x6

Tiba Flexions - 9 sets of 6-10, upped the weight getting stronger

Single Leg Calf Raises - 8 sets of 5, used the same weight as we use for 2 leg.

One Arm DB preacher curls - 4 sets of 5, done slow

Intra-Aid Pre and strawberry Real Gains with milk PWO

[Wasteland]

for what I understand the Pasteurization process destroys the Saturated fat/MCT chain...they stay as a Sat Fat but are no longer MCT. If one was so inclined they could use FF milk I suppose and supp in coconut oil or MCT oil for the fat...

Raw goat milk? or pasteurized goat milk? I would think if its pastuerized it will destroy the MCT chain as well in goats milk.

I'm neither in food technology nor the dairy industry, so I'm can't comment on this. Homogenization might play a role in the reduction of MCT as well (assuming there is a reduction of course), I don't know. However, as fat free milk strips away the fat, it would therefore strip away the MCT or so the logic would go. I'll do some reading on this.

As for MCT, goat milk, in general has more MCT. Then again, for MCT, why not coconut oil? And milk?

[GJN5002]

Can you cite evidence to support this, something other than anecdotal feedback from those who support raw milk use?

The truth is, milk allergies don't arise out of the bacteria that may or may not be in milk, but from the predominant fractions in bovine milk (fractions not found in human milk). What you're saying about histamines sounds like nothing more than propaganda espoused by the raw milk proponents, lol. But I could be wrong.

purely anecdotal big man haha

[Wasteland]

purely anecdotal big man haha

Lol. Just making sure we're on the same page.

[adidas]

If you don't mind Wasteland I will add in the article I have on MILK for PWO as well...



Originally Posted by alan aragon
Clearing Up Casein's Misunderstood Role in Workout Nutrition

By Alan Aragon


Dairy Protein Primer

God bless the dairy industry. Who would have known that pitchfork-toting guys in straw hats and overalls would play a tremendous role in bodybuilding nutrition? In the dawn of the sport, cow's milk has been regarded as a staple bodybuilding food. The reasons milk works so well for size and strength gains have only recently been investigated. By now it's pretty common knowledge that milk protein consists of a combination of whey and casein. Casein is the dominant fraction of milk protein (82 percent) with whey rounding out the remainder (18 percent). Minor but commercially significant milk proteins are lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase. It's well known that casein and whey are among the most biologically available proteins in the food supply.

Primary Differences Between Whey and Casein

Whey and casein have distinctly different composition and physiological effect. Whey is higher than casein in leucine, isoleucine, lysine, and the sulfur-containing amino acids. In contrast, casein has more phenylalanine, tyrosine, and aromatic amino acids. Casein has a more intimate link with IGF-1 binding capacity, while whey has been noted for its ability to suppress oxidation. Casein is the slowly absorbed fraction, and whey is the quick one. As a result, whey has a greater effect on protein synthesis, while casein has a greater effect on nitrogen retention and the prevention of protein breakdown. Casein holds the less glorious position of keeping the floor from crashing into the basement, while whey has been in the spotlight raising the roof.

The Obsession with Speed

Traditional thinking about postworkout nutrition has been all about speed. It all began with the rate of appearance of plasma glucose directly affecting the rate of glycogen synthesis. Higher glycemic response equals quicker glycogenesis (glycogen synthesis), and presumably, quicker recovery. That objective is just perfect if you're an ultra-endurance athlete with multiple sessions in a single day. Ironically, all of the nutrient timing principles bodybuilders have adopted are derived from research geared toward endurance sports, where the athlete's structure and function is nearly the opposite of the bodybuilder.

So, are there crossover lessons to be applied? Yes and no. From a cellular hydration standpoint, it certainly can't hurt bodybuilders to follow suit and maximize the rate of glycogenesis. But in most cases, the glycogen you used up during training is easily restocked by the same time the next day, regardless of whether you consume "fast" or "slow" proteins and carbs after working out. In addition, all the research indicating the anabolic benefit of quick postworkout substrates was done on subjects in an overnight fasted state, in the absence of a preworkout meal or shake - not exactly the real-world workout conditions of typical bodybuilders.

Whey Became the Dextrose of the Protein World

Dextrose was recognized for quite some time as the quickest carb, and thus best for postworkout recovery. Naturally, a whey plus dextrose combination became the standard for postworkout nutrition due to the quickly absorbed nature of each substrate. But again, the postworkout nutrition objectives were all based upon unrealistic conditions in a nearly irrelevant population (fasted endurance trainees). People around the world spouted off familiar advice: "You shouldn't have casein postworkout because it will hinder the absorption of the whey and dextrose." And hence the whey-only era continued. Some folks have latched onto the speed of absorption idea and swear (without evidence) that whey hydrolysate is better than whey isolate or whey concentrate. Still others will take the concept even further and trade out their steak for a bowl of free-form aminos, which are more quickly absorbed. Naturally, milk was supposed to be avoided postworkout, because it formed viscous clumps of gel in your gut that scared off the whey, rendering it useless. Well, at least that's how a lot of people made it sound. Meanwhile, research began to trickle in and change the way we viewed the situation.

Is Faster Better?

About a decade ago, Boirie's team compared the absorption rate and leucine kinetics of 30 grams casein to 30 grams whey, and their results were very interesting. Casein elevated blood amino acid levels for up to 300 minutes post-ingestion [1]. Whey, on the other hand, caused higher amino acid levels at the 100 minute point, and returned levels to baseline at 300 minutes. Casein caused a smaller increase in protein synthesis, but unlike whey, casein also inhibited protein breakdown.

The striking aspect about this study was the casein group achieved a better leucine balance than the whey group, indicating better nitrogen retention, thus better protein utilization. Casein caused a greater net positive protein balance than whey. This was a big win for casein, because all we really care about is remaining in a trend of positive protein balance amidst continual protein turnover.

In a later similar study, it was found that aside from known factors (including quantity of calories, amino acid composition, and micronutrition), the speed of digestion is an independent regulator of protein balance [2]. In other words, slower actually was observed to be better. Now let's see what happens when the rubber meets the road in comparison trials measuring the relevant endpoints.

The True Test: Comparative Effects On Body Composition and Strength

Seven years ago, Demling and Desanti compared the effect of a casein-dominant meal replacement product with a whey supplement. Overweight healthy police officers underwent a structured exercise program that included resistance training, under slightly hypocaloric conditions [3]. The dosing of each treatment was twice daily, once postworkout, and again 8-10 hours separately. The results? Whey got whooped by the casein-based meal replacement for strength gain, lean body mass gain and fat loss. Can we blame the superiority of the casein blend's results all on the 20 grams of carbohydrate it contained? Overall carbohydrate intake was controlled between the groups, however carbohydrate timing was not controlled, so carb timing could have made a minor impact. About a year after that study, Wojcik and colleagues compared an all-carbohydrate drink with a milk-based carb/protein recovery drink [4]. Each drink was dosed immediately postworkout and again two hours later. The results? No significant difference in rate of glycogen resynthesis.

More recently, Kerksick's team compared the strength and body composition effects of three treatments on resistance-trained men. One group received 40 grams of whey plus eight grams of casein. Another received 40 grams of whey plus three grams of BCAA plus five grams of glutamine. The last group received 48 grams of carbohydrate [5]. The supplements were ingested postworkout and on the mornings of non-exercise days. The casein/whey group had the greatest increase in lean mass, the carbohydrate group came in second without any gain, and the whey/BCAA/glutamine group actually lost lean mass. Calories were poorly controlled in this trial, But still, fast-absorbing whey and BCAA didn't shine as the be all and end all of protein and amino acid supplements.

The latest dairy protein fight as of this writing was performed by Cribb's team, who saw high-dose whey beat high-dose casein for strength gain, lean mass gain, and fat loss [6]. But once again, calories weren't controlled as tightly as necessary to level the playing field and allow us to draw any firm conclusions.

So Where Does This Leave Us?

The research comparing casein and whey is split almost right down the middle. Where it's headed from this point is really anyone's guess. Undoubtedly, funding source will play a big role in the direction of the research results. As the evidence stands, it certainly wouldn't hurt, and might actually be optimal to have a blend of the two and reap the best of both worlds. A popular practice is to have casein pre-bed, and whey near the training bout. But the reality is, the training bout is the most acutely catabolic point in your day, even though it's a necessary trigger for anabolism. Think about it, sleep ain't got NOTHING on the immediate muscle damage caused by battling the iron. So, why not have both of the best tools for each job present in circulation at the most critical point? Let's look at things logically. By saying that casein might get in the way of whey, we might as well say that the carbohydrate might get in the way of the protein, so let's separate them? Wrong. Protein and carbs act synergistically to increase muscle protein synthesis and inhibit protein breakdown. The same synergy can be achieved by having a combination of whey and casein near the workout. Maybe Mother Nature was right all along.

References

1. Boirie Y, et al. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1997;94(26):14930-5.
2. Dangin M, et al. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E340-8.
3. Demling RH, DeSanti L. Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers. Ann Nutr Metab 2000;44(1):21-9.
4. Wojcik JR, et al. Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Dec;11(4):406-19.
5. Kerksick, et al. The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training. J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Aug;20(3):643-53.
6. Cribb, et al. The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006;16:494-509

[Wasteland]

If you don't mind Wasteland I will add in the article I have on MILK for PWO as well...

No problem and thanks. Alan's article could help us further this discussion, though he's specially talking about milk protein powders, right? Besides, using milk post-workout as cited in the study is what started this thread.

[widdlewade44]

Fat content of Raw milk not the same as fat content of pasterized milk

Raw = MCT fats
Pasterized = shit

I didn't say they were the same amount; the poster I responded to asked if fat was present. I personally agree with you that pastuerized milk is no good.

Kevin
widdlewade44

[Wasteland]

I didn't say they were the same amount; the poster I responded to asked if fat was present. I personally agree with you that pastuerized milk is no good.

Kevin
widdlewade44

"No good"? No good at all? Never? Or no good in certain cases? Please elaborate.

[widdlewade44]

Thanks for the link. The question of where to get raw milk was on my mind the whole time i was reading this thread.
Is the taste of raw milk any different than the store milk?

Yeah, it's creamier and I feel that it digests better. It is awesome in shakes.

As an aside, J-Dawg mentioned the cost (being high) for raw milk. I pay $5.50 a gallon; organic, pasteurized milk in my area runs $6-7.00 a gallon, so I feel ahead of the curve with my raw milk.

Kevin
widdlewade44

[adidas]

I didn't say they were the same amount; the poster I responded to asked if fat was present. I personally agree with you that pastuerized milk is no good.

Kevin
widdlewade44

I was just pointing out the differnce between RAW and Pasteurized milk fat...

MCT sat fat does not act the same as Pasteurized Sat Fat...

I wasn't trying to imply that you where saying they held the same amount of fat as each other...just that the fats are differnt.

[adidas]

"No good"? No good at all? Never? Or no good in certain cases? Please elaborate.

it has to do with the digestability of the fat after its been pasteurized...MCT = easy to digest. Pasteurized harder on stomach to digest. then theres the whole MCT vs. standard Sat Fat thing...

[Fury317]

ye never was a fan of him....

(In reference to The Oak?)

WHAT?! WHAT?! Thats like a priest saying he's not a fan of Jesus lol

[widdlewade44]

"No good"? No good at all? Never? Or no good in certain cases? Please elaborate.

FOR ME (caps for clarity) regular milk sucks; can't belt down a whole bunch (in a sitting), don't feel as good after consuming it and it is not as creamy (obvious with higher fat in raw milk).

I drank regular milk for years and benefited from it, but since I've been using raw (all of this year) I will never go back to regular milk. I actually take my raw milk with me (if I need to).

Kevin
widdlewade44

[Wasteland]

it has to do with the digestability of the fat after its been pasteurized...MCT = easy to digest. Pasteurized harder on stomach to digest. then theres the whole MCT vs. standard Sat Fat thing...

I understand what you're saying, though I have issues with that, lol. I was just asking for widdlewade44 to clarify his general statements about pasteurized milk.

[Wasteland]

FOR ME (caps for clarity) regular milk sucks; can't belt down a whole bunch (in a sitting), don't feel as good after consuming it and it is not as creamy (obvious with higher fat in raw milk).

I drank regular milk for years and benefited from it, but since I've been using raw (all of this year) I will never go back to regular milk. I actually take my raw milk with me (if I need to).

Kevin
widdlewade44

Makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

[widdlewade44]

I was just pointing out the differnce between RAW and Pasteurized milk fat...

MCT sat fat does not act the same as Pasteurized Sat Fat...

I wasn't trying to imply that you where saying they held the same amount of fat as each other...just that the fats are differnt.

Cool, agreed.

Kevin
widdlewade44

[adidas]

I understand what you're saying, though I have issues with that, lol. I was just asking for widdlewade44 to clarify his general statements about pasteurized milk.

ahhhh haaa....I see.

[IronWilson]

(In reference to The Oak?)

WHAT?! WHAT?! Thats like a priest saying he's not a fan of Jesus lol

I'm not the biggest fan of him either. But I wouldn't say I dislike him. I just think he probably fucked a lot of people over. And he seems really vain. I guess a lot of famous bodybuilders are like that. But I don't know the guy personally so I can't judge him.

[Wasteland]

After everyone of his workouts he would drink a big thing of chocolate milk. He swore by it and look where he is now!!!!

For chocolate milk lovers everywhere: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16676705?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

Granted, it was done on endurance athletes.

[Big3]

Since we are not sponsored by Cytosport, we just get a liter of chocolate milk after each workout.. seems to be working for me and the entire team and just about every non sponored college in America...

[fenix237]

there 69 replies to this thread just from this morning! - is that some kind of record?

anyways, i read through this thread and find it interesting- i like drinking milk, especially in my shakes where it's much better tasting than water. plus, it's convenient to stop in a convenience store to get a bottle of milk if i'm in a pinch for food.

the problem is that i'm carb sensitive and if i 40 proteins of milk, i'm also getting 60 grams of lactose- not a good idea when i'm trying to drop bodyfat. i seem to get "puffy" with too much milk/dairy.... one question though; shortly after i drink a big glass of milk, i get real gassy haha!!!... but the thing is that i experience no stomach discomfort or diarrhea- does this mean i'm lactose intolerant?

thanks fellers!

[G Diesel]

I love milk. I drink it to some extent everyday and almost always mix it in my shakes, especially my morning shake.

Raw milk is even better, but is difficult to find and goes for $10 per gallon (not exactly recession-friendly).

I think we overthink shit and analyze this stuff to death. Most of my favorite bodybuilders ever from the 50s, 60s and 70s drank a ton of milk and took a basic, pragmatic, consistent, health-first approach to the lifestyle and they built amazing physiques.

I think CuttDeez's example of his boy in the NFL with a penchant for chocolate milk postworkout just goes to prove that sometimes all of the high tech horseshit we get caught up on may really be impeding our progress.

Peace, G

[GJN5002]

I think we overthink shit and analyze this stuff to death. Most of my favorite bodybuilders ever from the 50s, 60s and 70s drank a ton of milk and took a basic, pragmatic, consistent, health-first approach to the lifestyle and they built amazing physiques.


Peace, G

great point and I think many people miss the health first approach which you will value more as you get older.

[Wasteland]

I love milk. I drink it to some extent everyday and almost always mix it in my shakes, especially my morning shake.

Raw milk is even better, but is difficult to find and goes for $10 per gallon (not exactly recession-friendly).

I think we overthink shit and analyze this stuff to death. Most of my favorite bodybuilders ever from the 50s, 60s and 70s drank a ton of milk and took a basic, pragmatic, consistent, health-first approach to the lifestyle and they built amazing physiques.

I think CuttDeez's example of his boy in the NFL with a penchant for chocolate milk postworkout just goes to prove that sometimes all of the high tech horseshit we get caught up on may really be impeding our progress.

Peace, G

But what about the carbs? What about the sugars, lol.

[Big3]

But what about the carbs? What about the sugars, lol.

Well, the last thing that's on your mind after a football workout is the sugar content in chocolate milk! Training for bodybuilding and training for football are two completely different animals. I don't think ANY bodybuilder needs to be drinking a gallon of Gatorade everyday as a football player may need to... personally, I take in as much as 300g sugars per day during practces and offseason workouts because the intensity is that demanding on the body, yet, I always end up leaner but heavier every season... I don't a bodybuilder could do the same....

[whosnexttt]

Shoot I drink milk when im cutting, I like making a mass shake like this

1-2 serv milk
1 serv raw oats
2 serv peanut butter

[Ironjaw]

Well, the last thing that's on your mind after a football workout is the sugar content in chocolate milk! Training for bodybuilding and training for football are two completely different animals. I don't think ANY bodybuilder needs to be drinking a gallon of Gatorade everyday as a football player may need to... personally, I take in as much as 300g sugars per day during practces and offseason workouts because the intensity is that demanding on the body, yet, I always end up leaner but heavier every season... I don't a bodybuilder could do the same....

Ahoh???? a bodybuilder can do the same .... that is if they wanted to, i hope i dont get flamed for this but if i do then i guess tough shit it has to be said ... too many times bodybuilders become way too damn skiddish when they go to do things.... if your gunna bulk then bulk .... go at it hardcore ballz to the walls eat like the gigantic titanyou wish to be .... shit i eat myself outta house and home andnot everything is all "Balanced" i drink a crap ton a milk alotta PB rice pasta i do get in a good amount of protein but not once do i think "oh man im gunna get too big" fuck that stop being a pussy and bulk if you wanna bulk .... we as athletes needa stop being afraid of a bulk over anylizing what your intaking and just sit down eat and train..... the onlything i count these days is how much protein im intaking ... just so i can keep it consistant and over 200g ... other than tha screw it ... when cutting comes down the pipe ill be training just as hard trimming for a show....
you go balls to the wall everyday with your training right??? how long you go to practice for ?? 2-3 maybe 4 hrs?? shit i dont see why bbers cant bulk train for a couple hrs ... unless i keep an eye on the time i dont even see an hr go by ... especally on leg day i say train hard for 2hrs to put you shit to good use ... hence y we do it... ive been doing it and seeing evenbetter results... you as a football playr se the results as well correct ??? its all just a part of mindset ....

anyway end of the o/t rant ..... MILK FTW!!!

Ja Na
-Jaw

[N. Motta]

What's your body fat percentage IronJaw?

[Big3]

Ahoh???? a bodybuilder can do the same .... that is if they wanted to, i hope i dont get flamed for this but if i do then i guess tough shit it has to be said ... too many times bodybuilders become way too damn skiddish when they go to do things.... if your gunna bulk then bulk .... go at it hardcore ballz to the walls eat like the gigantic titanyou wish to be .... shit i eat myself outta house and home andnot everything is all "Balanced" i drink a crap ton a milk alotta PB rice pasta i do get in a good amount of protein but not once do i think "oh man im gunna get too big" fuck that stop being a pussy and bulk if you wanna bulk .... we as athletes needa stop being afraid of a bulk over anylizing what your intaking and just sit down eat and train..... the onlything i count these days is how much protein im intaking ... just so i can keep it consistant and over 200g ... other than tha screw it ... when cutting comes down the pipe ill be training just as hard trimming for a show....
you go balls to the wall everyday with your training right??? how long you go to practice for ?? 2-3 maybe 4 hrs?? shit i dont see why bbers cant bulk train for a couple hrs ... unless i keep an eye on the time i dont even see an hr go by ... especally on leg day i say train hard for 2hrs to put you shit to good use ... hence y we do it... ive been doing it and seeing evenbetter results... you as a football playr se the results as well correct ??? its all just a part of mindset ....

anyway end of the o/t rant ..... MILK FTW!!!

Ja Na
-Jaw

I'm not calling out bodybuilders as not training hard. I'm just saying that a traditional bodybuilding splits are not the same as a football split. Sure leg days for bodybuilders are hard, but imagine doing a combinations of squats, power cleans, front squats, deadlifts, or snatches every workout on top of conditioning, position drills, and speed and agility training. I'm not saying that bodybuilders don't train hard, I'm just saying that football training is a different type of intensity. Besides, I don't see how my previous provoked you into typing a rant...


Oh, and my last comment about leaning out each season was that I don't think bodybuilders could consume 300g SIMPLE SUGARS everyday and still lean out, not that bodybuilders can't lean out or anything.

[Ironjaw]

What's your body fat percentage IronJaw?

lol suprisingly not that high its at 12% and im at about 211-212 just checked it today ....lol does this mean im gettin flamedd from my last comment? lol im pretty blunt with what i say at times... im tryingto keep it in check but i believe we gotta stop being scared to eat ... i mean especially how hard we go for i and how long .... im sure G eats like a bull but have you seen the pic he posted the othe day??? hes gigantic in a good way so thats the only thing im trying to express here


I'm not calling out bodybuilders as not training hard. I'm just saying that a traditional bodybuilding splits are not the same as a football split. Sure leg days for bodybuilders are hard, but imagine doing a combinations of squats, power cleans, front squats, deadlifts, or snatches every workout on top of conditioning, position drills, and speed and agility training. I'm not saying that bodybuilders don't train hard, I'm just saying that football training is a different type of intensity. Besides, I don't see how my previous provoked you into typing a rant...


Oh, and my last comment about leaning out each season was that I don't think bodybuilders could consume 300g SIMPLE SUGARS everyday and still lean out, not that bodybuilders can't lean out or anything.

you didnt provoke it persay its sumthing i wanted to say in this thread since i first read it .... so it wasnt at all pertaining to you but im glad you said it because it gave me another opinion to match to ... and with the lean out thing it wasnt mainly towards your comment on gatorade but as a bulk BB isnt a tiptoe ya digg?? and like i said above although yes the training is different in that aspect its rather ppl being cynical over things that they really shouldnt .... the whole rant i did was based around the topic being milk ... i think i may be explaining in a circle but i hope ya understand what i as trying to get thru it wasnt really being upset about your comment but using it to display the fact that it can be done if ppl try it but i agree 300 simple aint a good idea unless you do your type of training

[adidas]

I love milk. I drink it to some extent everyday and almost always mix it in my shakes, especially my morning shake.

Raw milk is even better, but is difficult to find and goes for $10 per gallon (not exactly recession-friendly).

I think we overthink shit and analyze this stuff to death. Most of my favorite bodybuilders ever from the 50s, 60s and 70s drank a ton of milk and took a basic, pragmatic, consistent, health-first approach to the lifestyle and they built amazing physiques.

I think CuttDeez's example of his boy in the NFL with a penchant for chocolate milk postworkout just goes to prove that sometimes all of the high tech horseshit we get caught up on may really be impeding our progress.

Peace, G

Most 50's & 60's BB where still drinking raw milk for what its worth...not so sure aboiut 70's BB though...I forget when and how controlled pastuerized milk became during the 60-70 time frame.

[Wasteland]

Well, the last thing that's on your mind after a football workout is the sugar content in chocolate milk! Training for bodybuilding and training for football are two completely different animals. I don't think ANY bodybuilder needs to be drinking a gallon of Gatorade everyday as a football player may need to... personally, I take in as much as 300g sugars per day during practces and offseason workouts because the intensity is that demanding on the body, yet, I always end up leaner but heavier every season... I don't a bodybuilder could do the same....

That's right. You need to employ the right nutritional strategy for the sport.

[Big3]

you didnt provoke it persay its sumthing i wanted to say in this thread since i first read it .... so it wasnt at all pertaining to you but im glad you said it because it gave me another opinion to match to ... and with the lean out thing it wasnt mainly towards your comment on gatorade but as a bulk BB isnt a tiptoe ya digg?? and like i said above although yes the training is different in that aspect its rather ppl being cynical over things that they really shouldnt .... the whole rant i did was based around the topic being milk ... i think i may be explaining in a circle but i hope ya understand what i as trying to get thru it wasnt really being upset about your comment but using it to display the fact that it can be done if ppl try it but i agree 300 simple aint a good idea unless you do your type of training[/QUOTE]

Gotcha.

[Muscleguy93]

of course arnie says milk is for babies... i bet arnie drank alot of milk. think about how he tries to mislead all of his competitors.

ya he gave the worng "advices"

[Appollonian]

I'm sure Arnold crushed the milk. He later went on to say that he was just joking (but not during the film). The meal replacement shake from him I saw (maybe in his book) was milk, sunflower oil, fructose, and whey powder.