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shizz702
08-11-09, 6:43 pm
Just wondering what you guys think of this.

I'm gonna use this rep scheme for a bit and hopefully it produces some solid strength gains.

Source: http://www.dragondoor.com/hardstyle/news/archives/2005/06/

Build might and muscle with the classic 'countdown to power'
John McKean sent me an article he wrote about the 54321 routine back in the sixties. It details how to make great gains by doing consecutive sets of 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 repetitions.

"The countdown provides the lifter with several advantages." writes McKean who has won many titles in powerlifting and all-around lifting and started his writing career in Strength & Health under legendary John Grimek. “First of all, he is relieved of the boredom of doing set after set with the same weight or for the same number of counts. Secondly, he looks forward to each coming set because, in his mind, the decreased repetitions make it easier to perform. Of course there is more weight to contend with but those detestable reps are diminished! It can also be seen that the body acquires a gradual adjustment to an ever-increasing weight. When one can force his mind and body to accept heavier workloads, he begins to improve.”

McKean gives you the freedom to decide what poundage jumps you are going to make between sets. Most experienced lifters jump ten to twenty pounds, John McKean added thirty five pounds per set to his squats, and some big dudes add as much as a hundred pounds between sets! Simple math tells that you should be putting up at least five wheels to make such jumps. Ten pound increases should be about right for the average bodybuilder, e.g. 200x5, 210x4, 220x3, 230x2, 240x1. Note that not all sets will be equally difficult; that is fine and even purposeful, ‘cycling’ within a workout.

John advises that your first workout should start out with the top single twenty pounds below your best. Practice the 54321 system three times a week and add five pounds to each set every workout. In two weeks you will overshoot your old max. If you keep working hard, you may end up with a forty-pound gain on your lift in one month, a typical experience for the 1960s powerlifters and bodybuilders who took on this program.

mdh84
08-11-09, 6:46 pm
Sounds pretty interesting. I may have to try this out in the future.

J Wong
08-11-09, 10:53 pm
Hey, it couldn't hurt. Give it a go and return with the results.

BubbyLight
08-12-09, 7:26 am
i like this for breakin plateaus but that is just me

MrMonday
08-12-09, 11:00 am
I don't see how this would trump the results you'd get from just training normally.

What are your goals shizz?

shizz702
08-12-09, 7:09 pm
What are your goals shizz?

Right now, just pure strength gains in the squat, dead, and standing press. So I was thinking this might be a good way to help get them up.

For other accesory and isolation exercises I'd still keep the reps highter though.

Iron 3
08-13-09, 12:01 am
Just wondering what you guys think of this.


John advises that your first workout should start out with the top single twenty pounds below your best. Practice the 54321 system three times a week and add five pounds to each set every workout. In two weeks you will overshoot your old max. If you keep working hard, you may end up with a forty-pound gain on your lift in one month, a typical experience for the 1960s powerlifters and bodybuilders who took on this program.

That sounds interesting. If you decide to give it a run be sure to tell us how it's going for you, especially the part about 40#s in a month.

shizz702
08-13-09, 7:29 am
Alright fellas,

I'm gonna run this for a while and I'll update this thread with the results afterward.

MrMonday
08-13-09, 7:52 am
Right now, just pure strength gains in the squat, dead, and standing press. So I was thinking this might be a good way to help get them up.

For other accesory and isolation exercises I'd still keep the reps highter though.

Have you considered building up a base of size while you're still young?

I mean even if you don't care all that much about bodybuilding it would help your lifts to get more muscle on your frame.

mritter3
08-13-09, 8:04 am
hey man, its gonna be a great new routine, should help you get great gains in those important compound movements, especially when your doing deads or squats for 1 or 2 reps and you have a ton of weight on the bar, that will get the blood flowing and the veins popping man....let us know you like it, ill follow along in your jouney.

shizz702
08-13-09, 8:10 pm
Have you considered building up a base of size while you're still young?

I mean even if you don't care all that much about bodybuilding it would help your lifts to get more muscle on your frame.

Yea definitely. A base of size and strength is what I'm after right now.

cstmgp
08-13-09, 10:12 pm
This sounds very interesting, but what would a routine look like? It says to do it three times a week, so are you doing the big three all in the same day?
Shaun

MrMonday
08-14-09, 12:08 pm
Yea definitely. A base of size and strength is what I'm after right now.

No offense meant here, but looking through your journey and your lifting vids I can't help but wonder why you train the way you do if those are your goals, and now you're going to do this routine?

Why?

Is there a reason you can't just train normally?

shizz702
08-14-09, 7:23 pm
No offense meant here, but looking through your journey and your lifting vids I can't help but wonder why you train the way you do if those are your goals, and now you're going to do this routine?

Why?

Is there a reason you can't just train normally?

What do you mean train normally?

What would be abnormal about doing this?

And I've been making great gains lately, so I must be doing something right.

The way I see it, if I run this and make substantial increases in my squat, dead, and press won't I also see some nice size gains?

prowrestler
08-15-09, 12:50 am
No offense meant here, but looking through your journey and your lifting vids I can't help but wonder why you train the way you do if those are your goals, and now you're going to do this routine?

Why?

Is there a reason you can't just train normally?


What do you mean train normally?

What would be abnormal about doing this?

And I've been making great gains lately, so I must be doing something right.

The way I see it, if I run this and make substantial increases in my squat, dead, and press won't I also see some nice size gains?


everyone trains for a different purpose, this must be rememberd. not everyone on here is a bodybuilder. Shizz is mainly concerned with the strength game. size is always nice but strength all around is what this man is mainly concerned about. this program looks pretty good for that purpose if deloading and nutrition are on point.

BUT, size gains wont be as good compared to a 4x10-15 rep range program that focuses on exercises that stress the specific muscle to the max.
hypertrophy is at its best in sets that take 30-45 seconds to complete. a 5 rep set would mean a 9 second rep for that lol....not happening....and IF it does happen, its not heavy enough to be a correct "5 rep set"

MrMonday, shizz is simply training in a more strength orientated way is all. its still a normal way to train but you have a good point to build up a solid size base while young

Shizzle, the program looks good for strength gains. but just cuz ur bench squat and dead go up, wont mean size will come with it....if your bench squat and dead 10 rep max is goin up, then ya, ur gonna be gettin jacked! progress in the 10-15 rep range is where size gains are at

MVP
08-15-09, 12:53 am
Shiz disregard most of the information about changing your training.

If you're eating in a calorie surplus and making progress on progressive overload, you'll gain hypertrophy too, not just strength.

MrMonday
08-15-09, 8:40 am
What do you mean train normally?

What would be abnormal about doing this?

And I've been making great gains lately, so I must be doing something right.

The way I see it, if I run this and make substantial increases in my squat, dead, and press won't I also see some nice size gains?

By training normally I mean in the gym at least 4 or 5 days a week, working all of your muscles, with a decent volume and just doing "more" in general. For some reason a lot of people here seem to think this is not good for "strength" (dumb), and that "strength" training means doing the most uber minimalistic training you can possibly think of, as if doing the least amount you possibly can will bring the most results.

To your last question: it depends. For example - I could see if you run a program and take your bench 10RM and squat 20RM both from 225 to 275, and gain bodyweight, then that would be some pretty noticeable size gains right there.

But seeing the size gain benefits of running a program designed to increase your 1-3 rep max doesn't usually work as well... there just isn't enough muscle stimulation when the increase can be accounted for by movement learning, CNS efficiency, and just improving your technique or gaining weight to increase leverage, etc.etc. Especially with you doing such a limited amount of exercises in the first place, if you did gain some size from bench pressing your heaviest for example... you aren't going to really know where that size will be gained, but its unlikely that it will be gained in your chest shoulders and triceps evenly.

Some guys do make alright size gains only training three days a week and pushing up near-maxes, but 99% of them also do a sizable amount of accessory work to make sure their muscles are growing so that progress doesn't come to a halt. (And if you delve deeper you find that a lot of them train this way at the intermediate+ level, and first got their numbers past the beginner level by being in the gym more often and not being afraid of "overtraining").

I know you're a smart enough guy to realize I don't mean to offend you, shizz

I'm just trying to figure out why exactly you train the way you do, because in my experience and from following your journal and your videos, you are a dedicated guy, I just wonder if the way you're training isn't doing you justice.

shizz702
08-15-09, 8:54 am
By training normally I mean in the gym at least 4 or 5 days a week, working all of your muscles, with a decent volume and just doing "more" in general. For some reason a lot of people here seem to think this is not good for "strength" (dumb), and that "strength" training means doing the most uber minimalistic training you can possibly think of, as if doing the least amount you possibly can will bring the most results.

To your last question: it depends. For example - I could see if you run a program and take your bench 10RM and squat 20RM both from 225 to 275, and gain bodyweight, then that would be some pretty noticeable size gains right there.

But seeing the size gain benefits of running a program designed to increase your 1-3 rep max doesn't usually work as well... there just isn't enough muscle stimulation when the increase can be accounted for by movement learning, CNS efficiency, and just improving your technique or gaining weight to increase leverage, etc.etc. Especially with you doing such a limited amount of exercises in the first place, if you did gain some size from bench pressing your heaviest for example... you aren't going to really know where that size will be gained, but its unlikely that it will be gained in your chest shoulders and triceps evenly.

Some guys do make alright size gains only training three days a week and pushing up near-maxes, but 99% of them also do a sizable amount of accessory work to make sure their muscles are growing so that progress doesn't come to a halt. (And if you delve deeper you find that a lot of them train this way at the intermediate+ level, and first got their numbers past the beginner level by being in the gym more often and not being afraid of "overtraining").

I know you're a smart enough guy to realize I don't mean to offend you, shizz

I'm just trying to figure out why exactly you train the way you do, because in my experience and from following your journal and your videos, you are a dedicated guy, I just wonder if the way you're training isn't doing you justice.

I understand where you are coming from here, and appreciate your input.

The thing is, I used to be in the gym 5 times a week training high volume, and I'm not gonna say that does not work, and that no one should do that, but I will say, it did not work for me.

Through experimentation and lots of research I've found abbreviated training works best for me.

I don't keep my sessions minimal cause I'm lazy or that I don't want to do more, I simply just want to train productively. As long as I'm making progress by setting PR's or changes in my body that's all that matters to me.

When I used to train 5 times a week I would just burn out.

Also I have a very physically demanding job, which makes for even more taxing demands on my schedule and recovery. 3 times a week just seems to be the sweet spot for me.

Anyways, as pro said, and he's right, strength gains are my primary concern, and I'm aware and agree that there are better methods to go about size gains.

The thing is right now, I've been stuck in the "intermediate" level for some time with my lifts, and I'm trying to bust out of that plateau and get to a more advanced level. I'm really gunning for a 500 deadlift, 400 squat, and bodyweight standing press.

Fury317
08-15-09, 9:22 am
Right now, just pure strength gains in the squat, dead, and standing press. So I was thinking this might be a good way to help get them up.

For other accesory and isolation exercises I'd still keep the reps highter though.

For upping strength in these area's I would imagine this would work pretty well. Its interesting. I kind of used to train like this about 4 years ago (but didnt know it, it was more of an ego thing haha)

Shizz you should run a log and actually log your workouts so everyone can see the progress.

As far as the hypertrophy is concerened I would say you probably wont see much hypertrophy while doing the 54321 prgram, but as your strength increases so will your ability to rep out heavier weight, optimizing muscle growth when you do a hypertrophy stage. Periodization is what its all about. Make sure nutrition is on point and youre set!

t_mh
08-16-09, 12:25 am
I've done the 5,4,3,2,1 occasionally when I want to mix up my chest days, but I've never followed it for weeks at a time, increasing the weights. It could be good.

J Wong
08-16-09, 1:13 am
Think about it guys, what guy with a huge bench has a small chest, or small arms, or small shoulders?

What guy with a huge squat has chicken legs?

None.

MVP
08-16-09, 4:30 am
For strength and size, I'd recommend a high calorie diet and Bill Starr 5X5.

Here's what I just finished.

Day 1- Heavy Push
Day 2- Light Pull
Day 3- Cardio/Stretching
Day 4- Light Push
Day 5- Heavy Pull

MrMonday
08-16-09, 10:12 am
Think about it guys, what guy with a huge bench has a small chest, or small arms, or small shoulders?

What guy with a huge squat has chicken legs?

None.

You guys seem to be getting the cart before the horse on this issue a lot of the time. To even GET to a "huge bench" in the first place, you need to build up your chest, shoulder, and tricep muscles and do a lot of accessory work. Getting a huge bench doesn't just happen automatically because you're working in a low rep range, and if you look at someone that benches 500lbs and has a huge chest and you take from that that you should only be bench pressing, then you're pretty foolish.

If you had said what guy can rep out huge numbers on the bench and squat for 6+ reps, and has small muscles? Then I would definitely agree with you.

But a person like shizz could probably go meet up with DeFranco tomorrow and have his bench press form corrected in a few minor ways, and be able to put up 20 more pounds simply due to a shorter range of motion or a better leverage being used. That doesn't mean his pecs are going to start popping out.

But to answer your question, there most definitely are guys with a huge bench and an unimpressive upper body (EG: http://www.realpolice.net/forums/949860-post10.html), and if you aren't aware of the powerlifters with a big squat and small legs then I don't know where you have been lol powerlifters get made fun of for that all the time.

MVP
08-16-09, 3:28 pm
You guys seem to be getting the cart before the horse on this issue a lot of the time. To even GET to a "huge bench" in the first place, you need to build up your chest, shoulder, and tricep muscles and do a lot of accessory work. Getting a huge bench doesn't just happen automatically because you're working in a low rep range, and if you look at someone that benches 500lbs and has a huge chest and you take from that that you should only be bench pressing, then you're pretty foolish.

If you had said what guy can rep out huge numbers on the bench and squat for 6+ reps, and has small muscles? Then I would definitely agree with you.

But a person like shizz could probably go meet up with DeFranco tomorrow and have his bench press form corrected in a few minor ways, and be able to put up 20 more pounds simply due to a shorter range of motion or a better leverage being used. That doesn't mean his pecs are going to start popping out.

But to answer your question, there most definitely are guys with a huge bench and an unimpressive upper body (EG: http://www.realpolice.net/forums/949860-post10.html), and if you aren't aware of the powerlifters with a big squat and small legs then I don't know where you have been lol powerlifters get made fun of for that all the time.

I agree with you.

Strengthen your synergists (triceps, anterior delts, traps), your stabilizers and antagonists and that will help with getting a big big.

I remember when I was a bench only guy, I plateaued for the time being and starting doing overhead presses, triceps extensions, weighted dips (which are chest dominant, but still) and my bench press increased pretty quickly.

It's not just about benching, you grow as a whole. Use the other lifts to help you out.

And as far as benching with a small chest goes, it's not true. You can be very small and strong by training the efficiently of your CNS and just strength training with low rep ranges. Think about lightweight powerlifters.