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IRBS
08-28-09, 3:20 pm
Comparison of isocaloric very low carbohydrate/high saturated fat and high carbohydrate/low saturated fat diets on body composition and cardiovascular risk.
Noakes M , Foster PR , Keogh JB , James AP , Mamo JC , Clifton PM .
CSIRO Health Sciences and Nutrition, Adelaide, Australia. manny.noakes@csiro.au

BACKGROUND: It is speculated that high saturated fat very low carbohydrate diets (VLCARB) have adverse effects on cardiovascular risk but evidence for this in controlled studies is lacking. The objective of this study was to compare, under isocaloric conditions, the effects of a VLCARB to 2 low saturated fat high carbohydrate diets on body composition and cardiovascular risk. METHODS: Eighty three subjects, 48 +/- 8 y, total cholesterol 5.9 +/- 1.0 mmol/L, BMI 33 +/- 3 kg/m2 were randomly allocated to one of 3 isocaloric weight loss diets (6 MJ) for 8 weeks and on the same diets in energy balance for 4 weeks: Very Low Fat (VLF) (CHO:Fat:Protein; %SF = 70:10:20; 3%), High Unsaturated Fat (HUF) = (50:30:20; 6%), VLCARB (4:61:35; 20%) RESULTS: Percent fat mass loss was not different between diets VLCARB -4.5 +/- 0.5, VLF-4.0 +/- 0.5, HUF -4.4 +/- 0.6 kg). Lean mass loss was 32-31% on VLCARB and VLF compared to HUF (21%) (P < 0.05). LDL-C increased significantly only on VLCARB by 7% (p < 0.001 compared with the other diets) but apoB was unchanged on this diet and HDL-C increased relative to the other 2 diets. Triacylglycerol was lowered by 0.73 +/- 0.12 mmol/L on VLCARB compared to -0.15 +/- 0.07 mmol/L on HUF and -0.06 +/- 0.13 mmol/L on VLF (P < 0.001). Plasma homocysteine increased 6.6% only on VLCARB (P = 0.026). VLCARB lowered fasting insulin 33% compared to a 19% fall on HUF and no change on VLF (P < 0.001). The VLCARB meal also provoked significantly lower post prandial glucose and insulin responses than the VLF and HUF meals. All diets decreased fasting glucose, blood pressure and CRP (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Isocaloric VLCARB results in similar fat loss than diets low in saturated fat, but are more effective in improving triacylglycerols, HDL-C, fasting and post prandial glucose and insulin concentrations. VLCARB may be useful in the short-term management of subjects with insulin resistance and hypertriacylglycerolemia.

PMID: 16403234 [PubMed]

ATLAS64
08-28-09, 4:36 pm
Comparison of isocaloric very low carbohydrate/high saturated fat and high carbohydrate/low saturated fat diets on body composition and cardiovascular risk.
Noakes M , Foster PR , Keogh JB , James AP , Mamo JC , Clifton PM .
CSIRO Health Sciences and Nutrition, Adelaide, Australia. manny.noakes@csiro.au

BACKGROUND: It is speculated that high saturated fat very low carbohydrate diets (VLCARB) have adverse effects on cardiovascular risk but evidence for this in controlled studies is lacking. The objective of this study was to compare, under isocaloric conditions, the effects of a VLCARB to 2 low saturated fat high carbohydrate diets on body composition and cardiovascular risk. METHODS: Eighty three subjects, 48 +/- 8 y, total cholesterol 5.9 +/- 1.0 mmol/L, BMI 33 +/- 3 kg/m2 were randomly allocated to one of 3 isocaloric weight loss diets (6 MJ) for 8 weeks and on the same diets in energy balance for 4 weeks: Very Low Fat (VLF) (CHO:Fat:Protein; %SF = 70:10:20; 3%), High Unsaturated Fat (HUF) = (50:30:20; 6%), VLCARB (4:61:35; 20%) RESULTS: Percent fat mass loss was not different between diets VLCARB -4.5 +/- 0.5, VLF-4.0 +/- 0.5, HUF -4.4 +/- 0.6 kg). Lean mass loss was 32-31% on VLCARB and VLF compared to HUF (21%) (P < 0.05). LDL-C increased significantly only on VLCARB by 7% (p < 0.001 compared with the other diets) but apoB was unchanged on this diet and HDL-C increased relative to the other 2 diets. Triacylglycerol was lowered by 0.73 +/- 0.12 mmol/L on VLCARB compared to -0.15 +/- 0.07 mmol/L on HUF and -0.06 +/- 0.13 mmol/L on VLF (P < 0.001). Plasma homocysteine increased 6.6% only on VLCARB (P = 0.026). VLCARB lowered fasting insulin 33% compared to a 19% fall on HUF and no change on VLF (P < 0.001). The VLCARB meal also provoked significantly lower post prandial glucose and insulin responses than the VLF and HUF meals. All diets decreased fasting glucose, blood pressure and CRP (P < 0.05). CONCLUSION: Isocaloric VLCARB results in similar fat loss than diets low in saturated fat, but are more effective in improving triacylglycerols, HDL-C, fasting and post prandial glucose and insulin concentrations. VLCARB may be useful in the short-term management of subjects with insulin resistance and hypertriacylglycerolemia.

PMID: 16403234 [PubMed]

Hey great post. I know not everyone is going to be able to understand a lot of the medical jargon in here so I am going to try and clear a few of the things up in this so it is more easily understandable.

LDL-low density lipoproteins (commonly thought of as "bad" cholesterol; can be harmful if your HDL is low and your LDL is high)

Homocysteine- is an amino acid if found it too high amounts is linked to coronary heart disease, strokes, and peripheral vascular disease.

triglycerols(triglycerides)- this is what your body stores as energy. Average male stores about 70,000+ kcals in triglycerides.

Insulin-hormone secreted by the pancreas that aids in regulating glucose metabolism.

Most of the research I have seen and heard from professors seems to say that VLCARB diets work only in the short run and are not suggested for the long run. I'll try to find some a few articles to post with this on long run implications and on VLCARB diet inefficiency in power athletes.

Great post.

GJN5002
08-28-09, 6:02 pm
Two questions, I may not be reading/interpretting correctly.

You could do enough damage to your body with poor diet and excercise by age 40 to throw off the results.

Why are they concluding that it wont work in the long term?

IRBS
08-28-09, 7:45 pm
Two questions, I may not be reading/interpretting correctly.

You could do enough damage to your body with poor diet and excercise by age 40 to throw off the results.

Why are they concluding that it wont work in the long term?

I did not conduct the research, so I do not know. I am only posting this information for educational purposes. I believe the researcher's email address is posted as well, may be a good question for you to ask him and then repost with his answers.

Overall, based on everything I have seen, I do pretty much agree with these findings.

ATLAS64
08-28-09, 8:49 pm
Two questions, I may not be reading/interpretting correctly.

You could do enough damage to your body with poor diet and excercise by age 40 to throw off the results.

Why are they concluding that it wont work in the long term?

If you look at any group/organization/doctor that does long term weight loss...almost all of the research indicates that VLCARB diets work for a very short period of time and then always lead to failure in the long run. In other words they are garbage for permanent weight loss or for dieting long periods of time. I myself believe they are garbage for athletes in general for a number of reasons. I understand they may have their place at certain points for bodybuilding...but I would advocate that type of diet to any athlete.

GJN5002
08-28-09, 9:43 pm
If you look at any group/organization/doctor that does long term weight loss...almost all of the research indicates that VLCARB diets work for a very short period of time and then always lead to failure in the long run. In other words they are garbage for permanent weight loss or for dieting long periods of time. I myself believe they are garbage for athletes in general for a number of reasons. I understand they may have their place at certain points for bodybuilding...but I would advocate that type of diet to any athlete.

It really depends on the amount of carbs/sport etc. I dont think you can make a blanket statement that vlcarb diets dont work for athletes. WHile taking in say 100 carbs a day with relatively low fat wouldnt work, high fat and protein with very low carbs can work just as well as high carbs, endurance sports perhaps being the exception. I think the problem is that many people go from low carbs to eating like "normal" and then bloat back up.

I would be interested to see some studies showing that low carb diets are garbage.

mark
08-29-09, 5:06 am
Low carb is not necessarily garbage... VLCARB/Keto is for long term weight loss and health.

Keto environment supports a catabolic environment... Moderate to low carb environment supports an anabolic environment.

Cortisol production is a major factor in all this. Cortisol does more than eat muscle, it also damages cardiovascular health, blood lipid profiles, can cause mental health damage (though this is rarely permanent... think of this as over training induced depression), among a slew of other effects on the body.

In a short term situation, most of the above are negated before any serious damage is done.

There are 2 groups that don't have the same results as those mentioned above... those taking AAS and the obese.

GJN5002
08-29-09, 10:54 am
Low carb is not necessarily garbage... VLCARB/Keto is for long term weight loss and health.

Keto environment supports a catabolic environment... Moderate to low carb environment supports an anabolic environment.

Cortisol production is a major factor in all this. Cortisol does more than eat muscle, it also damages cardiovascular health, blood lipid profiles, can cause mental health damage (though this is rarely permanent... think of this as over training induced depression), among a slew of other effects on the body.

In a short term situation, most of the above are negated before any serious damage is done.

There are 2 groups that don't have the same results as those mentioned above... those taking AAS and the obese.


Keto is catabolic? thats ridiculous. Your body uses fat/ketones, not muscle/aminos as long as you eat as you should.

Cortisol plays a factor in any kind of diet. WHen doing keto, limit your caffeine intake and rest appropriately and it wont be a problem. There are many natural athletes that use keto diets with no problem.

i have never seen any conclusive evidence linking low carb diet to any health problems. I think everyone on this board gets on MD's board to participate in the low carb witch hunt

ronald1919
08-29-09, 11:40 am
gjn I notice you post in the anabolic diet thread but dipasquale himself criticize keto every time he has the chance.

adidas
08-29-09, 12:57 pm
Keto environment supports a catabolic environment...

I'm curiouse to how you came to that conclusion?

low-carb with High fat diet moderat protein= increased HGH levels & increased IGF-1, increased testosterone levels

seems pretty anabolic to me.

IronWilson
08-29-09, 1:44 pm
Heres what it comes down to:

We as humans are meant to be eating a ketogenic diet. Our ancestors ate that way. And truth be told, if you didn't eat any starchy carbs for the rest of your life, you would live in pretty good health. But there are some good benefits to carb foods.

If what some of you are trying to say when you say keto promotes catabolism is that it is easier to be in a catabolic state with keto vs. a higher carb diet, you may be right. Still, a higher carb diet won't help you have the energy, strength, mental clarity, and health benefits that keto can while losing fat.

Nobody really thought about this whole high carb tomfoolery until the 80s when someone found it worked for them and everyone else followed.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 2:42 pm
It really depends on the amount of carbs/sport etc. I dont think you can make a blanket statement that vlcarb diets dont work for athletes. WHile taking in say 100 carbs a day with relatively low fat wouldnt work, high fat and protein with very low carbs can work just as well as high carbs, endurance sports perhaps being the exception. I think the problem is that many people go from low carbs to eating like "normal" and then bloat back up.

I would be interested to see some studies showing that low carb diets are garbage.


I'm curiouse to how you came to that conclusion?

low-carb with High fat diet moderat protein= increased HGH levels & increased IGF-1, increased testosterone levels

seems pretty anabolic to me.


Heres what it comes down to:

We as humans are meant to be eating a ketogenic diet. Our ancestors ate that way. And truth be told, if you didn't eat any starchy carbs for the rest of your life, you would live in pretty good health. But there are some good benefits to carb foods.

If what some of you are trying to say when you say keto promotes catabolism is that it is easier to be in a catabolic state with keto vs. a higher carb diet, you may be right. Still, a higher carb diet won't help you have the energy, strength, mental clarity, and health benefits that keto can while losing fat.

Nobody really thought about this whole high carb tomfoolery until the 80s when someone found it worked for them and everyone else followed.

Go look at all of the top sport nutritionists in the world and the top power athletes in the world. They have proven time and time again that the 60-65% carbohydrate allocation works far better than the moderate-low carbs for sports. As a power athlete you need lots of carbohydrates it boils down to what energy system you are using. If you an anaerobic athlete chances are your using the ATP-PC and Glycolysis as your pathways for energy (the other systems still are used but they arnt "warmed up" yet if you will). Many people are still usining "gym" science. The low carb diet is garbage for power and distance athletes is worthless. It is extremely inefficient which is why the best athletes in the world DO NOT USE IT. The easiest thing for your body to do is to get glucose from carbohydrates. Im not saying get a stupid amount of carbohydrates raising your calories through the roof. This is for athletes trying to stay at the same weight (energy in=energy out). For this scenario there is no doubt that the 60-65% carbs is the most efficient way to go as an athlete and if you have any doubts go do your research and read up on it. Carbohydrates have been demonized for very poor reasons and if you understand sports nutrition you will understand why they are so important if you are an athlete. Dieting for bodybuilding is a different realm so do not confuse the two. But if you are working with team sports athletes, throwers, sprinters, strongman, powerlifters, distance runners...they need those carbs to be at the top of their game.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 2:43 pm
Heres what it comes down to:

We as humans are meant to be eating a ketogenic diet. Our ancestors ate that way. And truth be told, if you didn't eat any starchy carbs for the rest of your life, you would live in pretty good health. But there are some good benefits to carb foods.

If what some of you are trying to say when you say keto promotes catabolism is that it is easier to be in a catabolic state with keto vs. a higher carb diet, you may be right. Still, a higher carb diet won't help you have the energy, strength, mental clarity, and health benefits that keto can while losing fat.

Nobody really thought about this whole high carb tomfoolery until the 80s when someone found it worked for them and everyone else followed.

Almost all of the worlds healthiest cultures pretty much eat a lower protein high carb diet. Also our ancestors ate that way bc they needed to store as much fat as possible bc they did not know when there next meal would be for the time period you are referring to.

GJN5002
08-29-09, 2:54 pm
Go look at all of the top sport nutritionists in the world and the top power athletes in the world. They have proven time and time again that the 60-65% carbohydrate allocation works far better than the moderate-low carbs for sports. As a power athlete you need lots of carbohydrates it boils down to what energy system you are using. If you an anaerobic athlete chances are your using the ATP-PC and Glycolysis as your pathways for energy (the other systems still are used but they arnt "warmed up" yet if you will). Many people are still usining "gym" science. The low carb diet is garbage for power and distance athletes is worthless. It is extremely inefficient which is why the best athletes in the world DO NOT USE IT. The easiest thing for your body to do is to get glucose from carbohydrates. Im not saying get a stupid amount of carbohydrates raising your calories through the roof. This is for athletes trying to stay at the same weight (energy in=energy out). For this scenario there is no doubt that the 60-65% carbs is the most efficient way to go as an athlete and if you have any doubts go do your research and read up on it. Carbohydrates have been demonized for very poor reasons and if you understand sports nutrition you will understand why they are so important if you are an athlete. Dieting for bodybuilding is a different realm so do not confuse the two. But if you are working with team sports athletes, throwers, sprinters, strongman, powerlifters, distance runners...they need those carbs to be at the top of their game.


ryan kennelly set a 1075 bench press record while in ketosis.

GJN5002
08-29-09, 2:57 pm
gjn I notice you post in the anabolic diet thread but dipasquale himself criticize keto every time he has the chance.

Ive never read anything where he has bashed it. Even if he has, hes never glorified high carb diets.


Almost all of the worlds healthiest cultures pretty much eat a lower protein high carb diet. Also our ancestors ate that way bc they needed to store as much fat as possible bc they did not know when there next meal would be for the time period you are referring to.

Most of the healthiest cultures in the world eat what their ancestors ate. Americans do not and neither do athletes. Humans are designed to eat meat and fat efficiently.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 3:13 pm
http://www.sportsci.org/news/compeat/grams.html

More muscle=more carbohydrates needed to maintain them. I think everyone here would like to keep as much of their hard earned muscle as possible.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 3:40 pm
http://espn.go.com/trainingroom/s/1999/1029/140212.html

http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/H/HE-0751/

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/sportsnutrition/a/HighProteinDiet.htm

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/sportsnutrition/a/HighProteinDiet.htm

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/Protein.htm

http://www.espn.go.com/trainingroom/s/1999/1104/151285.html

http://www.espn.go.com/trainingroom/s/2000/0324/444124.html

Heres a lot of articles to help clear the haze on the low carbohydrate diet. Protein and fat cannot be oxidized fast enough to provide significant energy for high intensity athletes. Yes, if your a bodybuilder you qualify as a high intensity athlete because it is anaerobic. You guys are all very bright get past the "gym" science bc none of it is valid and really look at the principles and concepts behind why these things work and it will open your eyes to better ways of eating that WILL benefit you!

gyn No one on here is ont he low carb witch hunt. I am not talking about health problems on low carb..I am talking about athletic inefficiency on low carb diets. I could go into the health problems easily if I wanted to but I will spare everyone those details bc it would take a lot of explaining

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 3:48 pm
Ive never read anything where he has bashed it. Even if he has, hes never glorified high carb diets.



Most of the healthiest cultures in the world eat what their ancestors ate. Americans do not and neither do athletes. Humans are designed to eat meat and fat efficiently.

Really they are??....so we are designed to have massive increases in ammonia (which isnt good for us) in our bodies from too much protein whcih makes our insides work overtime to get rid of them and we are designed to have massive increases in plasma homeocystine that leads to CVD(CVD is the #1 cause of death in the United States) and we are designed to use Ketones(even tho carbohydrates are the main source of energy for our brain)...wow I didnt know that... I guess we shouldnt eat fruit either bc that has carbs and we arnt efficient enough to use that for energy bc we arnt designed for it. Our bodies and bioenergetic systems are DESIGNED for CARBOHYDRATES. otherwise it wouldnt be called glyolysis and otherwise carbs woud not be the easiest form of energy for us to convert to acetylCoA.

Its amazing what you learn when you dont go to bodybuilding.com for your hottest new nutrition advice

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 3:54 pm
However, the super high carbs 70% for athletes is not recommended for sedentry individuals around 50-55% carbohydrates is recommended in that case.

adidas
08-29-09, 4:22 pm
Really they are??....so we are designed to have massive increases in ammonia (which isnt good for us) in our bodies from too much protein whcih makes our insides work overtime to get rid of them and we are designed to have massive increases in plasma homeocystine that leads to CVD(CVD is the #1 cause of death in the United States) and we are designed to use Ketones(even tho carbohydrates are the main source of energy for our brain)...wow I didnt know that... I guess we shouldnt eat fruit either bc that has carbs and we arnt efficient enough to use that for energy bc we arnt designed for it. Our bodies and bioenergetic systems are DESIGNED for CARBOHYDRATES. otherwise it wouldnt be called glyolysis and otherwise carbs woud not be the easiest form of energy for us to convert to acetylCoA.

Its amazing what you learn when you dont go to bodybuilding.com for your hottest new nutrition advice

*YAWN*

maybe YOU should read more and post less...(and I don't jsut mean here on animal ForVm...I mean period)

CVD is caused not by over consumption of fat in and of itself, its caused by shitty diets high in over processed carbs, trans fats and over consumption of calories.

BTW the brain can and does funtion JUST fine in a ketosis...

have you ever stopped and given thought that maybe the reason our bodies use carbs so fast is so it can move the useless shit out of the way and use it up so it can get to what it really wants to use...fats and proteins.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 5:22 pm
*YAWN*

maybe YOU should read more and post less...(and I don't jsut mean here on animal ForVm...I mean period)

CVD is caused not by over consumption of fat in and of itself, its caused by shitty diets high in over processed carbs, trans fats and over consumption of calories.

BTW the brain can and does funtion JUST fine in a ketosis...

have you ever stopped and given thought that maybe the reason our bodies use carbs so fast is so it can move the useless shit out of the way and use it up so it can get to what it really wants to use...fats and proteins.


First off theres no reason to be a dick. Your obviously a bright guy I looked at a lot of your posts on nutrtion and such. I am just goin by what my graduate profs have taught me and all of the articles and studies they have presented to me. Theres evidence that can go either way on anything in nutrition. My whole point behind everything I say is just for people to stop demonizing carbohydrates THATS IT. Im not trying to be a know it all or anything I just want to present the best informaiton that has been presented to me in school and pass it on. Obviously I still have years and years to go before I understand every last concept but from all the physiology I have taken thus far it "seems" that carbohydrates are an effective energy source for power athletes. I am not saying to grossly overconsume them.

Honestly I worked hard to get some of this information here I dont have a masters yet or a doctorate which is my goal for Nutrition or phyisiology. I just wanted to get what seems like credible sources of information and maybe add some things that I have picked up along the way. One of the reasons I spoke out against the ketogenic diet is because one of my profs who is one of the leading minds in sports nutrition is very against it and presented a several day presentation chastizing it. He also mentioned that there are some people with his qualifications that would go against him, but from his prospective he did not think it was an efficient diet for athletes.

So please next time be respect of my post I dont know everything obviously im just tyring to contribute. I read about this stuff every time i get a chance so DO NOT say that im completely worthless in this subject. You are older and more experienced with this stuff...but you shouldnt be a dick..u should be encouraging people.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 5:33 pm
So please next time be respect of my post I dont know everything obviously im just tyring to contribute. I read about this stuff every time i get a chance so DO NOT say that im completely worthless in this subject. You are older and more experienced with this stuff. Dont talk down to me please...I bust my ass in school and in the gym im not here to try and pick fights there is no reason to be hostile towards me. Have a conversation dont completely shut me out. I WANT TO LEARN SHIT I HAVE AN OPEN MIND. HOWEVER, I do not want to be chastized when I am actually going to school and trying to figure out what is right and what isn't. BC lets face it not all of the professors and nutritionist and exercise physiologists, doctors, and strength coaches agree 100% on everything. There is always going to be an opposing view on things or a study that shows data towards another direction. Our job as athletes/meat heads whatever the fuck you wanna call it is to sift through the bullshit and find out what works best.

So next time do not be so standoffish please. I dont want enemies on here bc of failures to communicate especially when they have a lot to bring to the table.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 5:36 pm
http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/about/news/release/2000/7-diet.htm

Another interesting article if anyone is interested. Debate it up!

adidas
08-29-09, 6:25 pm
So next time do not be so standoffish please. I dont want enemies on here bc of failures to communicate especially when they have a lot to bring to the table.

I appologize if I came off as a prick...but lets face it you calling keto/high-fat diets worthless or useless (in any sports realm) is just as stand offish or dickish as what I said...

this diet can be used with any form of athletics one wants...if you wnat proof look up.

If you want to learn or read up more try starting with Paloelithical/cave-man dieting, then look up Vince Gionda, after that take a peek at BB.coms keto diet section (yes they have a pretty comprehensive area on it and it is rather good), snoop at the inuit & native american peoples diet, and lastly look up Lyle McDonald (a Keto dieter book author and has a web forum just like this one)...

read, compare, adjust, beg, borrow, & steal diet concepts and mix and match to accomidate your needs...

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 6:38 pm
I appologize if I came off as a prick...but lets face it you calling keto/high-fat diets worthless or useless (in any sports realm) is just as stand offish or dickish as what I said...

this diet can be used with any form of athletics one wants...if you wnat proof look up.

If you want to learn or read up more try starting with Paloelithical/cave-man dieting, then look up Vince Gionda, after that take a peek at BB.coms keto diet section (yes they have a pretty comprehensive area on it and it is rather good), snoop at the inuit & native american peoples diet, and lastly look up Lyle McDonald (a Keto dieter book author and has a web forum just like this one)...

read, compare, adjust, beg, borrow, & steal diet concepts and mix and match to accomidate your needs...

I do trust me I have read all of that literature its just from everything else I have seen it doesnt seem to be appropriate for athletes of any kind. But the fact remains that none of the top athletes in world use a diet like that bc there are volumes and volumes of publications that have proven time and time again that carboydrates are the key to athletic success. From an energy yield stand point carbohydrates are more efficient. Efficiency in a machine is can be understood with basic thermodynamics. More efficient machines produce more output. Carbohydrates require your body to do less with them because they are packed with oxygen and yield water and carbon dioxide as their bi-products which are easiiy disposed of. Fat requires mass amounts of oxygen for your body to shuttle so it can be used as an energy source bc of its molecular structure of 6C 32H 2O..this wastes energy. Becuase of the deamination process of protein when it is used as energy it causes your body to go through extra metablic pathways that waste energy. Both protein and fats require more oxidation making them less efficient as energy sources.

The whole idea behind this is you would not put 87 octane in your Lambo!

That diet can be used but it is associated with the onset early fatigue in endurance AND power sports.

Good debate man thanks for responding I really appreciate it. Lets continue this its interesting to learn different views!

mark
08-29-09, 6:46 pm
ryan kennelly set a 1075 bench press record while in ketosis.

Where did you get this fact from?

Are you aware of Ryan's drug usage? The dude was taking more gear in a week than most of the extreme bb'ers take in a week.
Ryan was taking over a gram of test a week, high doses of eq and tren as well, popped at least 60-80mgs of dbol most days, come meet time he was adding halo in there at max doses, cheque drops, some times anadrol at 150mg per day on top of all that as well! You want to know why Ryan Kennelly had so many nose bleeds or why he'd bleed from his tear ducts, because his blood was so freaking thin from all the crap he was putting into himself!

Now, the above comments can be tied back to the comment i said where people taking AAS do not apply to my statements regarding keto

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 6:46 pm
http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/print.aspx?token=af362d97-4f80-4453-a175-02cc6220a387&chunkiid=13796

Ellen Coleman, MA, MPH, RD, CSSD is a registered dietitian and exercise
physiologist in Riverside, California. She is the nutrition consultant for The Sport Clinic
and has consulted with the Los Angeles Lakers and Clippers Basketball teams, Angels
baseball team and Kings hockey team.

(one of the top minds in exercise nutrition)

adidas
08-29-09, 6:46 pm
The whole idea behind this is you would not put 87 octane in your Lambo!

That diet can be used but it is associated with the onset early fatigue in endurance AND power sports.

Good debate man thanks for responding I really appreciate it. Lets continue this its interesting to learn different views!

have you ever stopped to think that the reason that carbs seem to work so well is because the body is so use to using them? what if one was to use a keto'istic diet ALL the time? would there body not process fats and proteins faster since that is what it is use to doing over trying to utilize carbs day in a day out?

adidas
08-29-09, 6:50 pm
http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/print.aspx?token=af362d97-4f80-4453-a175-02cc6220a387&chunkiid=13796

Ellen Coleman, MA, MPH, RD, CSSD is a registered dietitian and exercise
physiologist in Riverside, California. She is the nutrition consultant for The Sport Clinic
and has consulted with the Los Angeles Lakers and Clippers Basketball teams, Angels
baseball team and Kings hockey team.

(one of the top minds in exercise nutrition)

the problem is her 1800 cal keto diet vs a 2200 cal carb diet...I stopped there because fo that.

BTW when insulin is not available IGF-1 becomes available doing the same job essentially.

adidas
08-29-09, 6:51 pm
Where did you get this fact from?

Are you aware of Ryan's drug usage? The dude was taking more gear in a week than most of the extreme bb'ers take in a week.
Ryan was taking over a gram of test a week, high doses of eq and tren as well, popped at least 60-80mgs of dbol most days, come meet time he was adding halo in there at max doses, cheque drops, some times anadrol at 150mg per day on top of all that as well! You want to know why Ryan Kennelly had so many nose bleeds or why he'd bleed from his tear ducts, because his blood was so freaking thin from all the crap he was putting into himself!

Now, the above comments can be tied back to the comment i said where people taking AAS do not apply to my statements regarding keto

Appearntly the same place you got Ryan's exact AAS dosage schedule from.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 6:52 pm
have you ever stopped to think that the reason that carbs seem to work so well is because the body is so use to using them? what if one was to use a keto'istic diet ALL the time? would there body not process fats and proteins faster since that is what it is use to doing over trying to utilize carbs day in a day out?


The body isn't "used" to using carbs. We are actually designed for it. If you look at glycolysis and the Krebs Cyle(citric acid cycle) becuase of the way our body is designed (the way it has been for thousands of years mind you) carbohydrates are our primary and most efficient energy source. It is in our DNA. Your body isnt going to change the way it processes fats and proteins. It is just going to have to undergo much more beta oxidation and it will have to strip more alanine from your muscles in the abense of carbohydrates. We are designed to be most efficient with carbs its just the way things are to the science communities knowledge. Give your body what is was engineered to use.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 6:54 pm
the problem is her 1800 cal keto diet vs a 2200 cal carb diet...I stopped there because fo that.

BTW when insulin is not available IGF-1 becomes available doing the same job essentially.

No offense but she has a much better understanding of this stuff than you ever will. That was a generalization about ketogenic diets. Usually they are very low in calories

adidas
08-29-09, 7:02 pm
No offense but she has a much better understanding of this stuff than you ever will. That was a generalization about ketogenic diets. Usually they are very low in calories

you can't compare 10 apples to 8 oranges..thats all I'm saying.

oh that a lack of calories, no matter the diet will result in shitty performance.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 7:04 pm
you can't compare 10 apples to 8 oranges..thats all I'm saying.

I understand your correct. But they have found the higher carbohydrate diets to be more efficient when calories are the same. Its just the facts.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 7:14 pm
I believe IGF1 is just used for growth and doesnt have anything to do with lowering glucose levels in the blood. Any takers on this im having trouble finding data on the subject.

mark
08-29-09, 7:14 pm
I'm curiouse to how you came to that conclusion?

low-carb with High fat diet moderat protein= increased HGH levels & increased IGF-1, increased testosterone levels

seems pretty anabolic to me.

Also, for the sake that we are on the same page... What do you define as low carb in the context of the above?


Actually, this is not entirely true...

Training causes major depletion of liver glycogen. This is actually one of the prime sources of energy the body likes while an intense environment. This is caused by excitement of the sympathetic nervous system.

Depletion of the liver glycogen causes an increase in cortisol production and/or a reduction of testosterone production and secretion. Depletion of liver glycogen can also cause an increase in SHBG (Sex hormone Binding Globulin). This essentially renders all your sex hormones useless. This is why free testosterone levels are so important. However, the process of replacing liver glycogen, especially after a workout, causes a chain of events that results in a highly anabolic environment and promotes recovery and protein synthesis. This is the body's most efficient and preferred method of creating anabolic environment in order to start the recovery process

VLCARB keto diets (ie, classic High Fat, High Protein, almost no carbs) work on the assumption that your body will not only deplete glycogen stores in the muscle faster, (which it can do without ever going into ketosis. Also, it should be noted that ketosis can be reached even while taking in carbs), but that it will deplete insulin stores from the pancreas and liver glycogen levels. From there, in theory, the body will turn to IGF-1 (which is anabolic in nature) to carry out the duties of insulin. It is also the act of relying on increased IGF-1 production and secretion that is to cause the increase in testosterone and GH.

However, this is where this theory fails. Remember where i mentioned above about the body going into a highly anabolic environment following a training session upon liver glycogen levels being re-filled. Guess what the body is going to do with a lot of those protein you take in after a training session? It is going to convert those proteins to carbohydrates (can't remember the technical term right now) and get to work at replacing those liver glycogen stores. Therefore, your body's liver glycogen levels get replaced, creating an anabolic environment. As a result of liver glycogen now being present, your body will therefore produce insulin therefore the IGF-1 theory falls apart. Since the IGF-1 theory falls apart, so does the increased GH and Testosterone theory as well.
Oh, and the body will produce IGF-1 as a result of stress of working out in order to repair the muscle damage. You don't need to be in ketosis for this to happen.


Again, the above is when on a classic BB'er keto diet... Ie, almost 0 carbs!

A general low carb diet on the other hand, does not cause this!

mark
08-29-09, 7:25 pm
Appearntly the same place you got Ryan's exact AAS dosage schedule from.

I got mine from the fact that i know several of his closest training partners, several of his closest friends who just so happen to be good friends and former training partners of mine, and the fact that i've been hanging around with top level powerlifters since before i could drive. I've helped handle friends of mine at WPO meets, i was back there in the warm up room with these guys and saw what they did, heard their stories, and talked with them personally about a whole slew of subject, one of which included drug usage.

If i hadn't been asked already not to post more in depth info on pro-lifters/bb'ers drug usage, i'd post out what most of the top guys in powerlifting are taking going into a meet. The stories i could tell would make most people's jaw hit the floor in terms of the top guys and drug usage.

mark
08-29-09, 7:30 pm
I guess we shouldnt eat fruit either bc that has carbs and we arnt efficient enough to use that for energy bc we arnt designed for it.

Ahhh... My good friend fructose... The bodies preferred source of replacing liver glycogen levels...

GJN5002
08-29-09, 7:34 pm
Really they are??....so we are designed to have massive increases in ammonia (which isnt good for us) in our bodies from too much protein whcih makes our insides work overtime to get rid of them and we are designed to have massive increases in plasma homeocystine that leads to CVD(CVD is the #1 cause of death in the United States) and we are designed to use Ketones(even tho carbohydrates are the main source of energy for our brain)...wow I didnt know that... I guess we shouldnt eat fruit either bc that has carbs and we arnt efficient enough to use that for energy bc we arnt designed for it. Our bodies and bioenergetic systems are DESIGNED for CARBOHYDRATES. otherwise it wouldnt be called glyolysis and otherwise carbs woud not be the easiest form of energy for us to convert to acetylCoA.

Its amazing what you learn when you dont go to bodybuilding.com for your hottest new nutrition advice


no the problem is this isnt bb.com and we try to stay somewhat civil here. i didnt go disrepecting you, but because I disgree with you Im a moron who gets all his info from bb.com?

yes carbs are the energy source for the brain, but our bodies can make them through gluconeogenesis, but you somehow forgot that in your impressive scientific banter.

you know what else the body uses easily, alchohol. maybe we should just drink a 6 pack before training for easy energy.

adidas
08-29-09, 7:35 pm
Also, for the sake that we are on the same page... What do you define as low carb in the context of the above?


Actually, this is not entirely true...

Training causes major depletion of liver glycogen. This is actually one of the prime sources of energy the body likes while an intense environment. This is caused by excitement of the sympathetic nervous system.

Depletion of the liver glycogen causes an increase in cortisol production and/or a reduction of testosterone production and secretion. Depletion of liver glycogen can also cause an increase in SHBG (Sex hormone Binding Globulin). This essentially renders all your sex hormones useless. This is why free testosterone levels are so important. However, the process of replacing liver glycogen, especially after a workout, causes a chain of events that results in a highly anabolic environment and promotes recovery and protein synthesis. This is the body's most efficient and preferred method of creating anabolic environment in order to start the recovery process

VLCARB keto diets (ie, classic High Fat, High Protein, almost no carbs) work on the assumption that your body will not only deplete glycogen stores in the muscle faster, (which it can do without ever going into ketosis. Also, it should be noted that ketosis can be reached even while taking in carbs), but that it will deplete insulin stores from the pancreas and liver glycogen levels. From there, in theory, the body will turn to IGF-1 (which is anabolic in nature) to carry out the duties of insulin. It is also the act of relying on increased IGF-1 production and secretion that is to cause the increase in testosterone and GH.

However, this is where this theory fails. Remember where i mentioned above about the body going into a highly anabolic environment following a training session upon liver glycogen levels being re-filled. Guess what the body is going to do with a lot of those protein you take in after a training session? It is going to convert those proteins to carbohydrates (can't remember the technical term right now) and get to work at replacing those liver glycogen stores. Therefore, your body's liver glycogen levels get replaced, creating an anabolic environment. As a result of liver glycogen now being present, your body will therefore produce insulin therefore the IGF-1 theory falls apart. Since the IGF-1 theory falls apart, so does the increased GH and Testosterone theory as well.
Oh, and the body will produce IGF-1 as a result of stress of working out in order to repair the muscle damage. You don't need to be in ketosis for this to happen.


Again, the above is when on a classic BB'er keto diet... Ie, almost 0 carbs!

A general low carb diet on the other hand, does not cause this!
I eat roughly anywhere from 5-12% carb in take everyday except weekends...I'm not worried about this. and what you are describing is an exteme form keto dieitng...it would be like me saying high carb diets cause you to gain fat...you know if 80% of your calorie intake is carbs and you over eat you daily calorie intake.


I got mine from the fact that i know several of his closest training partners, several of his closest friends who just so happen to be good friends and former training partners of mine, and the fact that i've been hanging around with top level powerlifters since before i could drive. I've helped handle friends of mine at WPO meets, i was back there in the warm up room with these guys and saw what they did, heard their stories, and talked with them personally about a whole slew of subject, one of which included drug usage.

If i hadn't been asked already not to post more in depth info on pro-lifters/bb'ers drug usage, i'd post out what most of the top guys in powerlifting are taking going into a meet. The stories i could tell would make most people's jaw hit the floor in terms of the top guys and drug usage.
I am quite aware of pro-athletes take and the crazy dosages they take...so are you saying Ryan wasn't on a keto diet?

adidas
08-29-09, 7:37 pm
Ahhh... My good friend fructose... The bodies preferred source of replacing liver glycogen levels...

shhhh you can't say fructoise around here....pitch forks, torches and ropes come out if you do.

And I eat fruit BTW

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 7:37 pm
Ahhh... My good friend fructose... The bodies preferred source of replacing liver glycogen levels...

YEAAA BUDDDY

Oh the term for converting protein to glucose is "gluconeogensis"! Freaking long words are hard to rememebr haha!

adidas
08-29-09, 7:38 pm
you know what else the body uses easily, alchohol. maybe we should just drink a 6 pack before training for easy energy.

FUCK YES!!!!! I will start up the trainign log for it


Adida hits the 12 pack for his 6 pack!

mark
08-29-09, 7:38 pm
you know what else the body uses easily, alchohol. maybe we should just drink a 6 pack before training for easy energy.

Wooowhooooo! Now that's the debate i'd love to have...

Who wants to experiment with me... I'll guy the first round for the study...

I'm thinking we need to compare a nice wide sample...

Vodka and red bulls, some Coronas, Jager Bombs, Bud, Gueniss, Captain and Coke, 7 and 7, perhaps some dirty beams... Who wants to be the brave soul who tries the long islands?

GJN5002
08-29-09, 7:39 pm
Where did you get this fact from?

Are you aware of Ryan's drug usage? The dude was taking more gear in a week than most of the extreme bb'ers take in a week.
Ryan was taking over a gram of test a week, high doses of eq and tren as well, popped at least 60-80mgs of dbol most days, come meet time he was adding halo in there at max doses, cheque drops, some times anadrol at 150mg per day on top of all that as well! You want to know why Ryan Kennelly had so many nose bleeds or why he'd bleed from his tear ducts, because his blood was so freaking thin from all the crap he was putting into himself!

Now, the above comments can be tied back to the comment i said where people taking AAS do not apply to my statements regarding keto

thats true, I guess if I use the same doses I can bench 1075 because its all drugs right? The fact he set a world record on a keto diet doesnt prove anything?

adidas
08-29-09, 7:42 pm
Wooowhooooo! Now that's the debate i'd love to have...

Who wants to experiment with me... I'll guy the first round for the study...

I'm thinking we need to compare a nice wide sample...

Vodka and red bulls, some Coronas, Jager Bombs, Bud, Gueniss, Captain and Coke, 7 and 7, perhaps some dirty beams... Who wants to be the brave soul who tries the long islands?I am up for Long Islands and audios mother fuckers ALL NIGHT!

oh wait...did I just confess to liking to drink liquer?


wait I take that back!

beer is bad! very, very bad!

*snicker* *snicker* *snort* *laugh*

GJN5002
08-29-09, 7:44 pm
ok, no more arguing lets grab some beers and lift some weights

mark
08-29-09, 7:45 pm
I eat roughly anywhere from 5-12% carb in take everyday except weekends...I'm not worried about this. and what you are describing is an exteme form keto dieitng...it would be like me saying high carb diets cause you to gain fat...you know if 80% of your calorie intake is carbs and you over eat you daily calorie intake.

Ok, we're close to being on the same page... VLCARB in my opinion is almost none, aka classic keto dieting in the BB'er sense...



I am quite aware of pro-athletes take and the crazy dosages they take...so are you saying Ryan wasn't on a keto diet?

I can assure you from what i know of Ryan's habits at that time, he was not on a "keto diet"... However, as i have stated all along, AAS use automatically throws all the rules out the window for a laundry list of reasons. He could have been in ketosis though from the increase metabolic function of the drugs while not eating a ketogenic diet plan per se.

adidas
08-29-09, 7:48 pm
ok, no more arguing lets grab some beers and lift some weights

grabs his guinness *what?...it's basically liquid bread.*

adidas
08-29-09, 7:49 pm
Ok, we're close to being on the same page... VLCARB in my opinion is almost none, aka classic keto dieting in the BB'er sense...




I can assure you from what i know of Ryan's habits at that time, he was not on a "keto diet"... However, as i have stated all along, AAS use automatically throws all the rules out the window for a laundry list of reasons. He could have been in ketosis though from the increase metabolic function of the drugs while not eating a ketogenic diet plan per se.

Yeah I am not a big advocate of next to zero carb diets...


yeah I know why AAS dose that for this discussion...

mark
08-29-09, 7:49 pm
shhhh you can't say fructoise around here....pitch forks, torches and ropes come out if you do.

And I eat fruit BTW

I preach fruit consumption before and after lifting...

And i hope they bring their pitch forks, torches, and ropes... I love me some S&M kinky action... I just hope they don't forget the red ball :)


YEAAA BUDDDY

Oh the term for converting protein to glucose is "gluconeogensis"! Freaking long words are hard to rememebr haha!

That's it... Thanks for the reminder... Long live fruit... Seems we all agree on something...



FUCK YES!!!!! I will start up the trainign log for it


Adida hits the 12 pack for his 6 pack!

Oh, nice... I'll take the vodka and red bulls...


I am up for Long Islands and audios mother fuckers ALL NIGHT!

oh wait...did I just confess to liking to drink liquer?


wait I take that back!

beer is bad! very, very bad!

*snicker* *snicker* *snort* *laugh*

LMAO! Just means more vodka and red bull for me! :)



ok, no more arguing lets grab some beers and lift some weights

Now that sounds like a solid plan... Bottoms up gents...

mark
08-29-09, 7:53 pm
Yeah I am not a big advocate of next to zero carb diets...



A ketogenic diet as described by perhaps, Lyle McDonald, definitely has its merits...

A keto diet as normally discussed on here or other bb'ing boards typically refers to the extreme next to 0 carbs...

I think we're on the same page amigo...

mark
08-29-09, 7:57 pm
thats true, I guess if I use the same doses I can bench 1075 because its all drugs right? The fact he set a world record on a keto diet doesnt prove anything?

No, I give Ryan full credit for busting his ass and training smart for reaching the level he has. It was Ryan that benched that weight, not the drugs, not the bench shirt, it was Ryan.

At the high-end amateur level up through the pro levels... Drugs become null and void as most everyone is taking about the same stuff... Some folks out there just take a little more than others....

From what i know of Ryan's habit at that time, it is impossible to say whether or not he was in ketosis. What i do know was that he was not following one of the classic ketosis models. Plus as i have stated all along, AAS automatically throws out all the rules of ketogenic diets.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 7:58 pm
no the problem is this isnt bb.com and we try to stay somewhat civil here. i didnt go disrepecting you, but because I disgree with you Im a moron who gets all his info from bb.com?

yes carbs are the energy source for the brain, but our bodies can make them through gluconeogenesis, but you somehow forgot that in your impressive scientific banter.

you know what else the body uses easily, alchohol. maybe we should just drink a 6 pack before training for easy energy.

Your body uses alcholol easily as energy? Really...it doesnt cause the liver to stain (using calories) to get rid of it....WOW

I didnt forget that bud...Im going to school for this im very confident in my ability to explain a lot of this. You however are mocking this an an extremely childish and unintelligent manner. NUFF SAID

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 7:59 pm
A ketogenic diet as described by perhaps, Lyle McDonald, definitely has its merits...

A keto diet as normally discussed on here or other bb'ing boards typically refers to the extreme next to 0 carbs...

I think we're on the same page amigo...

Yea I think we can alll agree on that ^

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 8:05 pm
Your body uses alcholol easily as energy? Really...it doesnt cause the liver to strain (using calories) to get rid of it....WOW

I didnt forget that bud...Im going to school for this im very confident in my ability to explain a lot of this. You however are mocking this an an extremely childish and unintelligent manner. NUFF SAID

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 8:07 pm
thats true, I guess if I use the same doses I can bench 1075 because its all drugs right? The fact he set a world record on a keto diet doesnt prove anything?

It doesnt prove shit because any diet can be a means to an end....its just that is not the MOST efficient...you will not find anything that says otherwise for athletes SORRY

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 8:26 pm
Sorry if i offended anyone do what works for you and we'll leave it at that. I think this gave me an idea for later on in school. Thanks for the debates everyone. Good luck with your training and NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP

adidas
08-29-09, 8:28 pm
I think this gave me an idea for later on in school.

And that is?

GJN5002
08-29-09, 8:51 pm
Your body uses alcholol easily as energy? Really...it doesnt cause the liver to strain (using calories) to get rid of it....WOW

I didnt forget that bud...Im going to school for this im very confident in my ability to explain a lot of this. You however are mocking this an an extremely childish and unintelligent manner. NUFF SAID

and high carbohydrate intake doesnt cause problems in the body either, right? Insulin resistance isnt too bad. we're athletes, we arent eating the most healthy way to begin with. 4000+ cals a day puts stress on the body, lifting heavy weight puts stress on the body and no, I wasnt advocating you drink a six pack before training.

I mock you because you basically told me Im a moron for thinking what I think and because you speak as though you know what is right and everyone else is wrong. The forum is ful of a lot of smart people, so you can listen exclusively to professors who probably have never lifted a weight in their life, I'll do what works for me.

you can come in here with your statistics, articles, and jargon, but there is not always a clear cut answer.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 8:53 pm
And that is?

To look at performance in power athletes for controlled Keto diets and higher carb diets and compare and contrast differences. Just might be difficult to talk a University into putting their athletes on a ketogenic diet lol bc they probably wont go for that. But maybe I'll figure something out..it would be extraordinarilly interesting to have some more concrete data comparing the two.

adidas
08-29-09, 8:55 pm
To look at performance in power athletes for controlled Keto diets and higher carb diets and compare and contrast differences. Just might be difficult to talk a University into putting their athletes on a ketogenic diet lol bc they probably wont go for that. But maybe I'll figure something out..it would be extraordinarilly interesting to have some more concrete data comparing the two.

if you use a keto group vs. a carb group...make sure th eketo group has been in ketosis for at least 4+ weeks...please before you start the test.

ATLAS64
08-29-09, 9:15 pm
if you use a keto group vs. a carb group...make sure th eketo group has been in ketosis for at least 4+ weeks...please before you start the test.

Good point will do. We will make sure they are in ketosis if we are allowed. Bc it is considered dangerous by most of the profs and dr.s

GJN5002
08-30-09, 8:49 pm
Good point will do. We will make sure they are in ketosis if we are allowed. Bc it is considered dangerous by most of the profs and dr.s

can we get this thread put in the bullshit section due to overload on false information

krazyassmexican
08-31-09, 6:37 pm
can we get this thread put in the bullshit section due to overload on false information

agreed

IRBS
08-31-09, 7:47 pm
can we get this thread put in the bullshit section due to overload on false information

Nope...

Just because you disagree does not make anything false. If you disagree with a point of view, find a way to articulate it effectively without stooping to childish back and forth.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, there is no one best way.

Leave your ego at the door,
IRBS

ATLAS64
08-31-09, 8:54 pm
can we get this thread put in the bullshit section due to overload on false information

First off...I go to school for physiology and sports nutrition so chances are I know atleast a little bit about what I am talking about. Also, Im lucky enough to have professors that are some of the best minds in this field educating me and my classmates in this subject. If you want to outright call me a liar thats fine...but what it boils down to is the individuals I am fortunate enough to learn from know their stuff and have had years and years of data to look at to figure out what works best for athletes. Also, they routinely do testing and diets for Olympic Athletes (if they didnt know what they were doing chances are Olympic Athletes would not be going to them for guidance). You can argue all you want with me on this subject childishly and call it blasphamy but I have provided an abundancy of credible scientific literature to back up my view points. Thusfar, you have provided nothing expect your opionions and an extremely limited understanding of bioenergetics. So two things .....
1) Grow up!
2) Accept that the information I have provided has come from credible sources....even these bright individuals do not agree 100% with each other on many things regarding nutrition and physiology.

If you provide literature or an opionion without being an ass. We can discuss and debate civily. I'm not completely closed minded to things and I really do enjoy talking about this stuff...otherwise I wouldnt be trying to enter this field for the rest of my life and spend 8+ years post high school going to school for it.

ATLAS64
08-31-09, 8:57 pm
agreed

My state above goes for you too. Thanks

krazyassmexican
08-31-09, 9:11 pm
My state above goes for you too. Thanks

may god bless you

ATLAS64
08-31-09, 9:43 pm
may god bless you

Ignorance is bliss I assume... for you nay sayers and your "gym" science.

1000+ grams of carbs a day here and havnt gotten fat. Interesting interesting

krazyassmexican
08-31-09, 10:13 pm
Ignorance is bliss I assume... for you nay sayers and your "gym" science.

1000+ grams of carbs a day here and havnt gotten fat. Interesting interesting
just because i dont wanna continue the infinite and never ending carb wars and because
i wish you something as good as a blessing i am considered ignorant?

i may be ignorant but deep inside i know i am showing more education than you by not callin
you an ignorant just because you dont agree with me or because i have higher education than you

i have heard and seen many studies about the benefits of medium/high healthy fats and low carbs
most of them conducted by dr. scott conelly who if i remember correctly came to the supplement
industry to change the story, and is a harvard graduate, once again i dont appreciate callin me
ignorant and i guess you are lucky this forum doesnt have a pit or i will answer you in the same
manner you answered me or even worst, unfortunately for many, i wont do it cuz i dont wanna get banned
and hopefully the watchmen of this site start taking actions in this freakin carb wars

ATLAS64
08-31-09, 10:26 pm
just because i dont wanna continue the infinite and never ending carb wars and because
i wish you something as good as a blessing i am considered ignorant?

i may be ignorant but deep inside i know i am showing more education than you by not callin
you an ignorant just because you dont agree with me or because i have higher education than you

i have heard and seen many studies about the benefits of medium/high healthy fats and low carbs
most of them conducted by dr. scott conelly who if i remember correctly came to the supplement
industry to change the story, and is a harvard graduate, once again i dont appreciate callin me
ignorant and i guess you are lucky this forum doesnt have a pit or i will answer you in the same
manner you answered me or even worst, unfortunately for many, i wont do it cuz i dont wanna get banned
and hopefully the watchmen of this site start taking actions in this freakin carb wars

First I thought u were mocking me. I want to have intelligent debates over this material belive me. But many individuals only see one side of the fence and make it difficult to discuss this stuff. I thought were were agreeing with gin that I was completely full of shit with all of my facts (which im not I can back them up;this doesnt mean its the only way). Go look at what you agreed with gin on and tell me how I couldnt take offense to that. I backed my shit up respectfully I want a great conversation about this material but when you and other individuals think there is zero truth to my statments it makes it difficult to talk about. I know you understand that. I respect the fact your a Harvard grad especially bc it is considrered the birth place for modern physiology. But respect my opinions and I will yours. You showed extreme disrespect for my backed up comments. They are not "wrong" bc you disagree with them its just from your prospective and from what you have learned you believe in a different system which is great. But it IS ignorant to believe what I believe in is completely wrong. There is evidence for both systems.

Thank for understanding why I was aggravated and lashed out.

ATLAS64
08-31-09, 10:29 pm
Ive also had extreme success with this system my professor put me on which DOES make me bias. But I will still respect your oppionion as long as u give some validity to mine. Thats all I ask is for us to respect each other...again i made a mistake lashing out ....but u did have complete disregard for my views.

ATLAS64
08-31-09, 10:35 pm
Also do not compare educations. Im about to graduate and get my masters in nutrition or physiology. Ive put my work in too.

IronWilson
09-01-09, 12:18 am
I like fats... they make me feel good. Carbs don't give you the sex drive that fats do.

Steak > Horny Goat Weed

ATLAS64
09-01-09, 6:47 am
I like fats... they make me feel good. Carbs don't give you the sex drive that fats do.

Steak > Horny Goat Weed

See when someone puts it this way I cant argue. Bc thats just awesome.

Shamus11B
09-01-09, 6:56 am
I like fats... they make me feel good. Carbs don't give you the sex drive that fats do.

Steak > Horny Goat Weed

This gentleman is the way to properly argue a point. Big time and I mean major props for this post!!!

ATLAS64
09-01-09, 6:59 am
This gentleman is the way to properly argue a point. Big time and I mean major props for this post!!!

I agree. Its funny and it proves a point about the hormonal effects fats have on the body.

On Letting Go
09-01-09, 7:27 am
I like fats... they make me feel good. Carbs don't give you the sex drive that fats do.

Steak > Horny Goat Weed

Gotta agree with you there.

adidas
09-01-09, 8:04 am
First I thought u were mocking me. I want to have intelligent debates over this material belive me. But many individuals only see one side of the fence and make it difficult to discuss this stuff. I thought were were agreeing with gin that I was completely full of shit with all of my facts (which im not I can back them up;this doesnt mean its the only way). Go look at what you agreed with gin on and tell me how I couldnt take offense to that. I backed my shit up respectfully I want a great conversation about this material but when you and other individuals think there is zero truth to my statments it makes it difficult to talk about. I know you understand that. I respect the fact your a Harvard grad especially bc it is considrered the birth place for modern physiology. But respect my opinions and I will yours. You showed extreme disrespect for my backed up comments. They are not "wrong" bc you disagree with them its just from your prospective and from what you have learned you believe in a different system which is great. But it IS ignorant to believe what I believe in is completely wrong. There is evidence for both systems.

Thank for understanding why I was aggravated and lashed out.
No the problem is you see zero validity in what we are saying about Keto-style diets, even though we study and practice it and if any of US disagree with YOU, you throw a friggin baby "respect me" pitty party fit espousing how much school and hard work you have done...going so far as to post 2-3 times saying you want us to respect you...then PM'ing us requesting us to respect you and then hittin our animal netpage demanding respect...it's tiring and no one earns respect by demanding respect.

And as far as links or any form of study...quite frankly I don’t feel like posting the 100+ studies, web-pages, links and other shit I have to dispute/counter/argue against what you say.

Oh and BTFW I don’t know if you and your college education reading skills noticed or not…but this section of the diet section you’re posting in is the “I don’t follow or prescribe to normal BB/wt lifting style of dieting and I do shit differently diet section.”



Ignorance is bliss I assume... for you nay sayers and your "gym" science.

1000+ grams of carbs a day here and havnt gotten fat. Interesting interesting
So ( I assume there is some fiber in here, but since you put “+”, I’m going to roll with it) you consume OVER 4000 calories of carbs ALONE EVERY DAY!?

Not 4000 calorie diet…but 4000 calories of carbs!!!

I call BS! What? do you have a 6000 calories diet every day? Which if you split the 2000 calories 50/50 equals; 250g of protein and 111g of fat every day? With OVER 1000g of carbs!!! Which is 17% protein, 66% carbs 17% fat…do you wt 220+lbs? and work out over an hr a day? Play football (offensive/defensive lineman)? Wrestle? Swim? I mean that’s nearly the amount of calories pro BB’ers consume while on gear…I’m not saying…just saying…

IRBS
09-01-09, 8:11 am
Stop the name calling or I will hand out infractions...some of you have had them before, they do add up and can lead to you spending some time away from the Forvm......

You people need to learn how to have a conversation without acting like children. This goes for ALL of you.

Be part of the solution, not part of the problem,
IRBS

Fury317
09-01-09, 10:24 am
Quite an interesting debate we have going on over here. Keep it civil and it will continue to be intriguing. Ive posted many, many times my thoughts on carbs vs fats. And instead of getting in the middle of all of this here's my thoughts....TEAM ATLAS ALL THE WAY BABY!!!! haha

Atlas, you know your shit man, I myself am graduating with a degree in Human Nutrion and Exercise Science so we're in the same boat. Keep fighting the good fight- CARBS FTW!!!!!

adidas
09-01-09, 11:33 am
What exactly are we discussing again? I can't remember with all the BS going on in here.

This thread started off a VLC diet vs. Low fat diet and health benifits...but it turned into how "useless" or "worthless" keto is or that it's "garbage".

ATLAS64
09-01-09, 2:42 pm
No the problem is you see zero validity in what we are saying about Keto-style diets, even though we study and practice it and if any of US disagree with YOU, you throw a friggin baby "respect me" pitty party fit espousing how much school and hard work you have done...going so far as to post 2-3 times saying you want us to respect you...then PM'ing us requesting us to respect you and then hittin our animal netpage demanding respect...it's tiring and no one earns respect by demanding respect.

And as far as links or any form of study...quite frankly I don’t feel like posting the 100+ studies, web-pages, links and other shit I have to dispute/counter/argue against what you say.

Oh and BTFW I don’t know if you and your college education reading skills noticed or not…but this section of the diet section you’re posting in is the “I don’t follow or prescribe to normal BB/wt lifting style of dieting and I do shit differently diet section.”



So ( I assume there is some fiber in here, but since you put “+”, I’m going to roll with it) you consume OVER 4000 calories of carbs ALONE EVERY DAY!?

Not 4000 calorie diet…but 4000 calories of carbs!!!

I call BS! What? do you have a 6000 calories diet every day? Which if you split the 2000 calories 50/50 equals; 250g of protein and 111g of fat every day? With OVER 1000g of carbs!!! Which is 17% protein, 66% carbs 17% fat…do you wt 220+lbs? and work out over an hr a day? Play football (offensive/defensive lineman)? Wrestle? Swim? I mean that’s nearly the amount of calories pro BB’ers consume while on gear…I’m not saying…just saying…

You really like throwing the word BS around dont ya?

You actually nailed by diet. I get just under 240 grams of protein a day...yes I do get 1000+ grams of carbs a day. I also weigh 245lbs and compete in Strongman and Powerlifting. I am also currently bulking to 265 lbs so I am no longer at the bottom of my weight class for Strongman. My total calories a day are actually closer to 7000 bc my fat intake in calories is higher than my protein intake in calories. It is possible to consume this amount of calories without getting fat. If you saw the amount of calories the female gymnasts (also power athletes) on the Olympic team ate you would be astonished. The RDA for calories 100 years ago I believe was over 4000 a day for the average man if i remember correctly because of the type of society we were then. Again, grow up and stop calling BS when you feel threatened about being wrong about something.

The Adiddamps...my only arguement was not against the ketogenic diet for bodybuilers. My arguement was that ketogenic diets are not the best option for athletes. Theres a reason you feel sluggish when you are in ketosis. If you about to run a 200m sprint do you want your athlete feelign sluggish or not performing at his/her highest abilities? That was it...but a lot of individuals in here jumped the gun and started defending the ketogenic diet like I was saying it was terrible in general....for cutting for bodybuilding...it works! For having non-bodybuilder athletes compete and function at a high level you will probably almost never find it. Bodybuilders do not have to run around, jump, or throw somthing. Its hard enough to just finish your work on while your on a ketogenic diet (low caloires too play a role) but the low low carbs wont allow a sprinter, thrower, football player to perform at their best. That was my point thats it im not bashing it for bodybuilding..but for athletes I do think it is garbage if you want them to perform. Again that is my opionion and I will stick to it. Im more than happy to talk about the pros and cons of each.

ATLAS64
09-01-09, 2:49 pm
Adidamps bc you have crossed the line with me Ill leave you with this. I dont need a pity party I was just hoping I help you realize how disrespectful and immature you are. I respect what people think and say and support all of my friends and they do the same for me. You obviously have a long way to go because you have absolutly zero concept of brotherhood or community. You dont get anywhere trying to act like a badass or one up people when you argue it makes you look like a mental midget. I hope in the future if this thread continues we can talk about this civily because you are bright you just need to learn how to express yourself better

adidas
09-01-09, 2:59 pm
Adidamps bc you have crossed the line with me Ill leave you with this. I dont need a pity party I was just hoping I help you realize how disrespectful and immature you are. I respect what people think and say and support all of my friends and they do the same for me. You obviously have a long way to go because you have absolutly zero concept of brotherhood or community. You dont get anywhere trying to act like a badass or one up people when you argue it makes you look like a mental midget. I hope in the future if this thread continues we can talk about this civily because you are bright you just need to learn how to express yourself better

pot calling kettle black...well done sir

* I have more to say but am leaving working and don't have time to give a full blown unthreatened, either, responce.*

ATLAS64
09-01-09, 3:05 pm
and high carbohydrate intake doesnt cause problems in the body either, right? Insulin resistance isnt too bad. we're athletes, we arent eating the most healthy way to begin with. 4000+ cals a day puts stress on the body, lifting heavy weight puts stress on the body and no, I wasnt advocating you drink a six pack before training.

I mock you because you basically told me Im a moron for thinking what I think and because you speak as though you know what is right and everyone else is wrong. The forum is ful of a lot of smart people, so you can listen exclusively to professors who probably have never lifted a weight in their life, I'll do what works for me.

you can come in here with your statistics, articles, and jargon, but there is not always a clear cut answer.

Another thing...both my profs were powerlifters one placed 2nd in National Heavies. Insulin resitance is more related to metabolic syndrom. If an athlete eats healthy carbs and stays away from sugary low glycemic carbohydrates (excepct during and after work outs) they will be fine with high carbs as long as it is what they need and not more. Pretty simple concept. You completely lost what I was argueing.. i wasnt argueing against the ketogenic diet in general...just for nonbodybuilder-athletes. I dont think your wrong doing the ketogenic diet..if you actually read you would know this. You jumped the gun on me being a carb nazi lol and basically thoguht im completely against it...Im only against it for athletes.

ATLAS64
09-01-09, 3:07 pm
pot calling kettle black...well done sir

* I have more to say but am leaving working and don't have time to give a full blown unthreatened, either, responce.*

I argued civily bud! But I promise to no longer respond to you bc you obviously cannot handle it.

If any1 would like to continue this topic in my Journey your more than welcome to. Good luck to every1.

IRBS
09-01-09, 3:12 pm
To all who responded, thanks for proving that there is no point in having any kind of meaningful diet discussions on this Forvm, LOL.

Closed, you guys can argue via PM if you so choose,
IRBS