View Full Version : Starting Over - Clean Bulk
Hey guys,
I started lifting a couple years ago at 13 or 14. After a year of being around 150lbs, I decided to go on an all out bulk. From sophomore to junior year, I got to 240lbs. Got really strong and put on a lot of muscle, but a lot of fat, too. I was drinking two gallons of whole milk a day and a bunch of other food, too.
I was planning on cutting down to around 190 from there with an estimated LBM of 170.
An unexpected shoulder and back injury had me out for 3 months, and I was cutting meanwhile. I came back at 180 and with lots of muscle and strength lost.
Kept on my cut and was able to make steady strength gains while dropping weight since I've come back. But I'm not near the level I was when I had to stop lifting. I'm on day 150 now of a keto died and sufficiently lean. It's time to start gaining again and this time, the right way.
I've been cutting on about 1100 calories a day. It seems like too little, but I feel good and I'm able to make consistent strength gains. Maybe it's genetics; maybe it's my age. But I see no reason not to do it this way if I'm able to get good results.
So, there's the background story...
I'm coming to you guys for help. I have a good amount of lifting experience, and even dieting now, but I honestly don't know how to properly bulk. I read every stickied diet thread on there that I could.
So, I'm going to do 4 meals a day. And I'm going to have carbs in the morning and pre and post workout. So It'll be a moderate-carb bulk. Also, on keto, I feel totally fine. Low carb doesn't phase me. Does this indicate anything about my carb sensitivity?
So, I'm going to do 1.5g protein/lb of body weight a day. Should I start out on 2500 or 3000 calories a day? I'm inclined to say 3000, seeing as I used to eat 6-7k, but I do not want to bulk as messily as I did last time. In fact, I'd prefer not to even have milk this go. I've had enough of it for a couple of years. I think I hade myself a lergic.
So anyways, so I'll need to have ~625 calories per meal. I'm thinking I'll have:
-meal 1: carbs, protein, fat
-meal 2: carbs, protein, fat
-lift
-meal 3: higher carbs, higher protein, lower fat
-meal 4: no carbs, higher fat
Does this look right? How should the carb/protein/fat ratio for every meal look? Also, what kinds of carb sources should I use? I know people eat oatmeal for breakfast, but why? Are fast-digesting carbs like white bread ever okay? What about that Ezekiel bread? Is brown rice slow digesting and white rice fast digesting? What about potatoes?
Basically, what types of carbs should I have and when? Keep in mind that I'm trying to keep it clean, with minimal fat gain.
Alright, I'd appreciate any advice.
Thank you,
First off, up your meals to 6 per day rather than 4.
http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=7103
Check out that thread, tons of advice and questions/answers from tons of people, should be able to provide answers.
Pizzalamp
11-01-09, 8:39 am
werent you the fellow who put his mom and grandma on keto diet? i hope what you put them on is a bit safer and smarter than what you did for yourself according to this post.
cutting on 1100 cals a day is very very low and not smart-i think women take in more cals when they cut
of course you lost weight with this diet...you pretty much starved yourself on 1100 cals.
and u were on the keto diet for 150 days?? how many months is that? with the combo of the foolishly low cals, the severity of the diet, and the additon of the cardio and weights, it sounds like you may have really messed up your metabolsim, thyroid, and csn.
i hope you included cheat meals.
and when u do decide to bulk you better increase your cals slowly.
To go from 1100 to 3000 overnight would be too much of a shock to your body.
you better read around a bit and educate yourself before you bulk.
Dr.Platypus
11-01-09, 8:47 am
I can think of no reasons for a 17 year old to go on a keto diet. I agree with Pizzalamp, you were starving yourself.
Little Z
11-02-09, 1:55 pm
werent you the fellow who put his mom and grandma on keto diet? i hope what you put them on is a bit safer and smarter than what you did for yourself according to this post.
cutting on 1100 cals a day is very very low and not smart-i think women take in more cals when they cut
of course you lost weight with this diet...you pretty much starved yourself on 1100 cals.
and u were on the keto diet for 150 days?? how many months is that? with the combo of the foolishly low cals, the severity of the diet, and the additon of the cardio and weights, it sounds like you may have really messed up your metabolsim, thyroid, and csn.
i hope you included cheat meals.
and when u do decide to bulk you better increase your cals slowly.
To go from 1100 to 3000 overnight would be too much of a shock to your body.
you better read around a bit and educate yourself before you bulk.
I spoke to the OP on several occasions and told him this exact same thing time and time again..
5 months on Keto at 17.. and then putting his mother and grandmother on a diet based on his and coming here to ask advice on it is dangerous..
to the OP.. bulk means to eat.. at least 6 meals a day, quit trying to count ever single calorie, you are over complicating everything..
at 17 you are getting to your prime with hormone levels and your body should be fueled like a machine..
I spoke to the OP on several occasions and told him this exact same thing time and time again..
5 months on Keto at 17.. and then putting his mother and grandmother on a diet based on his and coming here to ask advice on it is dangerous..
to the OP.. bulk means to eat.. at least 6 meals a day, quit trying to count ever single calorie, you are over complicating everything..
at 17 you are getting to your prime with hormone levels and your body should be fueled like a machine..
agreed
lets move past the keto thing. youre are 17 and bulking so just eat, I usually never tell people to just eat, Im very much into portion control, macros, cal counting. but you dont need to be so anal. Just dont eat as much as when you got fat. 2 gal of whole milk is about 4000 calories, just from milk!
Dr.Platypus
11-02-09, 2:22 pm
you seem to do everything way too extreme. Instead of GOMAD you did DOUBLE, instead of cutting by eating super clean and doing cardio you ate less than my sister, and now you are trying to do way to much of an extreme clean bulk. Just eat eat eat.
Little Z
11-02-09, 2:23 pm
agreed
lets move past the keto thing. youre are 17 and bulking so just eat, I usually never tell people to just eat, Im very much into portion control, macros, cal counting. but you dont need to be so anal. Just dont eat as much as when you got fat. 2 gal of whole milk is about 4000 calories, just from milk!
well he can eat as much as he wants.. but the quality of food is what needs to be watched.. if he wants a 'clean' bulk.. i hate that term lol
then he can easily obtain massive calories from eating plenty of protein rich foods, red meat, chicken, fish, etc..
prowrestler
11-02-09, 2:36 pm
im sorry but NO BODY goes from 150 to 240 in a matter of a year or 2.
theres so many things wrong with this thread.
if you want to bulk clean, eat 25 cals per pound and get 1.5 grams/lb of protien in per day. get it from clean foods. this is fucking simple stuff.
Appollonian
11-02-09, 2:53 pm
I'm going to come from a slightly different angle...
When I was 22 I went on a diet only consuming 2200 kcal a day (at 6'4" and 245 or so). I did this till I hit 190, losing a lot of fat, but muscle too. At that point I could only eat 2600 for maintenace, or a little over 13.7 cal/lb of weight. After strategically increasing intake over a one year period, I raised my weight to 205, but my maintenance was over 3500, or 17 cal/lb. Some of this was muscle gain no doubt, but a lot was just my body responding to an increased work load.
This is an example of your body having a set-point. You haven't destroyed your metabolism, but you will have to be smart in going to 'bulk' mode. You will have to introduce more volume to your workouts slowly and do cardio to get your metabolism fired up. Remember, build the base solidly before you decide to 'cut up'. We both learned this the hard way, but we are still young and can learn from our mistakes.
you seem to do everything way too extreme. Instead of GOMAD you did DOUBLE, instead of cutting by eating super clean and doing cardio you ate less than my sister, and now you are trying to do way to much of an extreme clean bulk. Just eat eat eat.
x2. instead of eating way too much or way too little find some middle ground
Thanks for the advice so far, guys. I appreciate it.
I'm still confused about carb sources, though. I'll start out having carbs for breakfast and pre/post workout. Which of those, if any, should be high GI carbs, like white rice? Or should I only be eating brown rice/Ezekiel break/sweet potatoes for carbs?
Little Z
11-03-09, 4:33 pm
Thanks for the advice so far, guys. I appreciate it.
I'm still confused about carb sources, though. I'll start out having carbs for breakfast and pre/post workout. Which of those, if any, should be high GI carbs, like white rice? Or should I only be eating brown rice/Ezekiel break/sweet potatoes for carbs?
You should be eating, period. You're 17..
You should be eating, period. You're 17..
Okay, yeah, I got that. Cool. I've been 240lbs. You don't need to tell me that. I'm trying to do a controlled bulk and educate myself about nutrition. I don't know the difference between different carbs, how they effect my body, and when to take them. I think that's pretty good to know for a lifter regardless of age.
It may seem like some people are jumping on you but let's backtrack here and get some things straight. Let's see if I've got this correct. You're 17, went from 150 to 240, then went on a 5 month keto diet, set up a keto diet for your mom and gma, looking to enter a bulk phase, scoured this site on dieting, and you still don't know the difference between carb sources or how they affect your body? Any one of the articles in the diet section of this site can shed some light on simple/complex carbs, intake time, and proper bulking.
Look man, being 17 puts you at an amazing point in your life when your body's hormone levels are basically going nuts while still maintaining a high metabolism. From the sounds of it you have been going from one extreme to another with your diet. I'll repeat what has already been said by others in that you are overcomplicating things. Start your day with eggs and oats. Eat clean throughout the day varying your protein and carb sources. Stick to high glycemic carbs mostly except for post-workout when it's best to eat high glycemic foods. The good news is at your age you are priveleged enough to eat some shit, whatever that is for you (fast food, sweets, etc.). Lift hard, eat clean, treat yourself, and stop thinking so much. Sometimes you just gotta move some fucking weight.
machineman
11-03-09, 7:05 pm
K.I.S.S.
If you don't know what it means, look it up.....x2 on what everyone else said....at 17, eat and lift heavy shit....plain and Simple........
Kryptonite
11-03-09, 8:39 pm
Basically...
Stick with 6 meals a day.
For protein stick with nonfat sources like chicken breast, canned tuna in water, lean ground turkey, egg whites, nonfat milk, and of course a low fat/low carb protein powder.
For carbs stick with anything that contains complex carbs like yams, brown rice, vegetables, fruit, oatmeal, but stay away from any whole wheat bread products, that shit makes you fat...
And of course for fats stay true to the monounsaturated ones. Almonds, avacadoes, and olive oil is really all I ever use.
Each meal should have protein and carbs. Add fat to 1 or 2 meals, but make sure they're eaten earlier in the day.
If you use spices, mustard, hot sauce, salsa, etc. this diet is easy to stick to and the weight flies off fast while adding in some sick gains.
I'm in the process of coming up with a diet right now and I'm checking out the stats for different foods.
brown rice:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5707/2
white rice:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5722/2
This lists the glycemic load of white rice lower than brown rice. I thought brown rice was the slow-digesting one.
I'm planning on using oatmeal and a banana for breakfast carbs, brown rice and sweet potatoes for carbs for my other earlier meals, and white rice or regular potatoes for post-workout carbs.
Does that sound right?
Kryptonite
11-05-09, 9:36 pm
I'm in the process of coming up with a diet right now and I'm checking out the stats for different foods.
brown rice:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5707/2
white rice:
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5722/2
This lists the glycemic load of white rice lower than brown rice. I thought brown rice was the slow-digesting one.
I'm planning on using oatmeal and a banana for breakfast carbs, brown rice and sweet potatoes for carbs for my other earlier meals, and white rice or regular potatoes for post-workout carbs.
Does that sound right?
That sounds like pretty much what I do. Which is good.
http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=28325
That's my diet thread, check it out if you want. It's a great for building lean muscle mass and getting rid of some of that bullshit bodyfat you can't get rid of.
T o m m Y
11-05-09, 10:08 pm
There is no need to overthink this shit man,your 17 yrs old...Eat Big,Lift Big,GET BIG...Its really that simple...
Dont worry about the GI of this and the macro ratio of that JUST EAT CLEAN FOODS AND LIFT HEAVY SHIT..
There is no need to overthink this shit man,your 17 yrs old...Eat Big,Lift Big,GET BIG...Its really that simple...
Dont worry about the GI of this and the macro ratio of that JUST EAT CLEAN FOODS AND LIFT HEAVY SHIT..
I've said it before, but I used to weigh 240. I know how to eat big. I went overboard and had to waste months of progress cutting. I'm trying to educate myself about nutrition and how to bulk properly with minimal fat gains. I haven't seen my abs in my life. It's easy for me to put on weight, but hard to get ripped. I hope you see why I'm planning my bulk meticulously before I begin.
Anyways, I've put together a sample diet which will begin when my cut ends in something like 11 days. I'm just waiting for the can of Cuts to run out. I'll post it up soon.
xxscaxx
11-05-09, 11:17 pm
hey man. everyone is tellin you what to do. seems like your not grasping the point.
yeah, you knew how to eat big, but not eat right. if you put on too much fat, you werent doing it right. eating big but "clean" will not yield these results. this you know as you keep saying your trying to learn how to do it right because you did it wrong, but the answer is that simple. the answers are in here.
stick to the foods suggested in this thread. maybe it would help if you told us what you were eating when you got to 240 other than 2 gallons of milk a day (which is ridic man lol).
everyone can only suggest so much, you need to find out what works best for you which is trial and error. you know how NOT to do it...so now go at it again and figure shit out.
good luck man.
stumblin54
11-06-09, 1:16 am
Stick to high glycemic carbs mostly except for post-workout when it's best to eat high glycemic foods.
I believe Young1 meant "stick with low glycemic carbs" throughout the day here (besides PWO), but this post pretty much sums it up to a tee. Before you go on any type of diet at all, be it bulk/cut/whatever, know what you're getting yourself in to or you will pay for it, as you have already discovered. I'm still a little taken aback by the fact that it took you to blow up to 240 to realize that maybe you were maybe doing something wrong, and also the fact that your mother and grandmother allowed you to put them on diets, but I guess that's another story. Diet is not just a subthought to be worried about some other time, it will make you or break you in this game and until you figure it out, which you have not, sit back for a bit and read, read, read. You are only hurting yourself if you don't, so sack up, swallow your pride and figure it out. In the meantime, please refrain from putting anybody else on any type of diet because that's a serious issue with ponentially serious ramifications.
Stumblin
Okay, so here's the diet I have laid out so far. Please tell me how it looks.
Meal 1 (Breakfast):
-3 whole eggs (213 cal, 18p, 15f, 0c)
-1.5 scoops whey (165 cal, 40p, 0f, 0c)
-1/2 cup oats (153 cal, 5p, 2.5f, 26c)
-1 banana (105 cal, 1p, 0f, 27c)
-Animal Pak (16 cal, 3p, 0f, 1c)
Meal 2 (Lunch):
-6 oz chicken breast (276 cal, 54p, 6f, 0c)
-1 cup sweet potatoes (180 cal, 4p, 0f, 41c)
Meal 3 (Pre-Workout):
-7 oz beef (287 cal, 49p, 7f, 0c)
-1 cup brown rice (216 cal, 5p, 2f, 45c)
LIFT
Meal 4 (Post-Workout):
-7 oz beef (287 cal, 49p, 7f, 0c)
-1 cup white rice (169 cal, 4p, 0f, 37c)
Meal 5 (Pre-Bed):
-8 oz salmon (464 cal, 48p, 24f, 0c)
-mixed vegetable salad
-Animal Omega (60 cal, 0p, 7f, 0c)
TOTAL:
Calories: 2591
Protein: 280g
Fat: 70g
Carbs: 179g
Before anyone says it, I won't do 6 meals until I graduate school in a month, so this will do for now. And I don't want dairy in my diet.
Also, I've been on keto and very low calories for a long time, so keep that in mind in regards to how I'll rebound.
Thank you for any input.
I believe Young1 meant "stick with low glycemic carbs" throughout the day here (besides PWO), but this post pretty much sums it up to a tee. Before you go on any type of diet at all, be it bulk/cut/whatever, know what you're getting yourself in to or you will pay for it, as you have already discovered. I'm still a little taken aback by the fact that it took you to blow up to 240 to realize that maybe you were maybe doing something wrong, and also the fact that your mother and grandmother allowed you to put them on diets, but I guess that's another story. Diet is not just a subthought to be worried about some other time, it will make you or break you in this game and until you figure it out, which you have not, sit back for a bit and read, read, read. You are only hurting yourself if you don't, so sack up, swallow your pride and figure it out. In the meantime, please refrain from putting anybody else on any type of diet because that's a serious issue with ponentially serious ramifications.
Stumblin
I wasn't a fatass at 240. I was probably 190LBM. The injury is what caused me to be out for a couple of months. But I did gain a lot more fat than would have been optimal.
Also, I put my grandfather and mother on a diet, not my grandmother. And they asked me to after seeing my results. They both lost some weight over a couple of weeks and then got bored of it.
Kryptonite
11-06-09, 7:18 pm
Meal 1 (Breakfast):
-6 egg whites
-1 scoop whey
-1/2 cup oats
-1 apple
-Animal Pak
Meal 2 (Lunch):
-8 oz chicken breast
-1 cup sweet potatoes
-1/4 cup almonds
Meal 3 (Pre-Workout):
-8 oz chicken breast
-1 cup brown rice mixed with 2/3 cup mixed veggies
LIFT
Meal 4 (Post-Workout):
-8 oz salmon (or just a large can of tuna)
-1 cup brown rice mixed with 2/3 cup mixed veggies
Meal 5 (Pre-Bed):
-1 scoop whey
-banana
-Animal Omega
-1/2 cup oatmeal (only if you're hungry)
This is just how I would work this diet... If you're trying to lose weight I'm not a fan of fatty meats. Especially not egg yolks, fucking gross.
Meal 1 (Breakfast):
-6 egg whites
-1 scoop whey
-1/2 cup oats
-1 apple
-Animal Pak
Meal 2 (Lunch):
-8 oz chicken breast
-1 cup sweet potatoes
-1/4 cup almonds
Meal 3 (Pre-Workout):
-8 oz chicken breast
-1 cup brown rice mixed with 2/3 cup mixed veggies
LIFT
Meal 4 (Post-Workout):
-8 oz salmon (or just a large can of tuna)
-1 cup brown rice mixed with 2/3 cup mixed veggies
Meal 5 (Pre-Bed):
-1 scoop whey
-banana
-Animal Omega
-1/2 cup oatmeal (only if you're hungry)
This is just how I would work this diet... If you're trying to lose weight I'm not a fan of fatty meats. Especially not egg yolks, fucking gross.
I'm not trying to lose weight once this diet starts. And I see nothing gross about egg yolks, but to each his own.
Dr.Platypus
11-06-09, 7:44 pm
throwing away egg yolks is pretty silly unless you are cutting hard. this guy is trying to bulk anyway.
Kryptonite
11-06-09, 7:45 pm
I'm not trying to lose weight once this diet starts. And I see nothing gross about egg yolks, but to each his own.
Word. Too much fat and cholesterol for me though. And sorry, everytime I see "diet" I just assume weight loss, even more so considering your calories seem too low for bulking.
On non-training days, how should my diet look compared to training days? Should calories be kept the same? I was thinking of keeping it the same except for replacing the carbs in my second to last meal (post-workout) with fats. So carbs would be tapered off after 6pm or so. That sound good?
Also, I looked up the nutritional information of ground beef and it has 3x more fat than just beef, but I can't eat steak twice a day. I don't like that ratio of calories from fat to protein. Any suggestions or alternatives?
On non-training days, how should my diet look compared to training days? Should calories be kept the same? I was thinking of keeping it the same except for replacing the carbs in my second to last meal (post-workout) with fats. So carbs would be tapered off after 6pm or so. That sound good?
Also, I looked up the nutritional information of ground beef and it has 3x more fat than just beef, but I can't eat steak twice a day. I don't like that ratio of calories from fat to protein. Any suggestions or alternatives?
Bumping this..
Also,
I've been reading that brown rice pre-workout is a bad idea since it takes so long to digest. Would it be better to have white rice and beef pre-workout, Nitro directly after, and brown rice with beef once I get home?