PDA

View Full Version : I seriously want to know?



belladiabla13
12-17-09, 12:09 am
I am honestly not trying to hate on anyone but I seriously would like to understand how "bikini" became a sport? Maybe I do not understand the make up of this contest? What does it have to do with bodybuilding? I understand that to look good in a bikini you have to work out but I am confused as to what that has to do with muscle? Could someone please clue me in?

Dingo
12-17-09, 12:47 am
its an effort by the ifbb to generate more awareness if you will and interest in all things bb related. no offense to anyone but hot chicks in bikinis sells to a more wide audience than muscled women and men do. Not to knock anyone who does those contests, but its a more softcore version of what attracts most of us the sport.

i guess the best way to get my point across is by comparing it to a gateway drug.

calcaneous
12-17-09, 1:10 am
one of the check-in girls at my gym starts her diet jan 1st for the bikini class. Im not going to tell her its a stupid idea. Im sitting front row for that show!

Jon_Blaze
12-17-09, 5:04 am
Have to agree with Dingo. It appeals more to people that aren't in it for the muscles. So it broadens the audience out. Kind of like how UFC uses Spike TV to get people to buy Pay Per Views. You need entry way material that will get people interested in the sport.

belladiabla13
12-17-09, 8:26 am
I can see how it is marketable, but is it bodybuilding?

Brutus_515
12-17-09, 8:47 am
I can see how it is marketable, but is it bodybuilding?

it puts butts in the seats at shows and fees to compete there will be more people who will diet 1/2 as hard for 1/2 as long (i dont mean that as a jab at all) so in all actuallity more money for the promoters and the sport. they been giving out Pro cards like candy this past year so hopefully the spread the money out fairly. and yes it is more pleasing for the "rest of society" to see a lady in shape in a bikini rather than a freak in bikini.

But mostly the sport is trying to make a buck.

NickSP
12-17-09, 8:57 am
Before my post let me just admit, I don't know much about the girls side of things. I don't know what exactly figure is trying to accomplish vs. the bodybuilding division, I don't follow any of it. But I have heard that there's a bikini division, and I guess the gist of it is basically just to look good (or thin to the mainstream). From a guy's standpoint, dingo's right, I'm not going to complain because it tends to be attractive. HOWEVER, I try to see the other competitors points. The IFBB is a bodybuilding organization, there is already all-out female BB, but due to the....let's say "conflicting" nature...there is also figure to build muscle like a BB while retaining femininity (or am I off base about that?). Not to mention you have fitness to make the combination of physical ability and the physique itself. So how does bikini come in and have that considered as a sport? I mean sure they look good, but that's all it is. How is that any different from a standard beauty pageant? There's like 4 divisions for improving the physique and it's starting to overcomplicate things, and I can understand why some of the competitors are upset that these girls come in to the IFBB with basically nothing but a sex appeal physique which takes nothing to accomplish except to be lean (and not even as lean as the other divisions).
Back to the flip side, I suppose all of BB is a beauty pageant of sorts at its core, and perhaps if we consider society as a whole it could be a good thing. It could be seen as something to simply promote getting in shape and looking good in this overweight country of ours. I mean yeah, we get upset on these forums all the time at the people who are only in the gym to do a little bit of training and getin shape but that's because we're lifters and we want something more. But there's plenty of people who don't even make it to the gym and don't look good at all. If looking good is going to be promoted in any way, bodybuilding figured why don't we do it? Brings more business in. And we lack that a little bit. Get someone to like their looks and maybe they start to appreciate working out more, appreciate the hard work people put into it, etc. and maybe end up becoming a fan of BB.

Could be a good thing for our fat country, or it could just be an insult to other female competitors who put more into it. Who knows?

7
12-17-09, 9:01 am
I am honestly not trying to hate on anyone but I seriously would like to understand how "bikini" became a sport? Maybe I do not understand the make up of this contest? What does it have to do with bodybuilding? I understand that to look good in a bikini you have to work out but I am confused as to what that has to do with muscle? Could someone please clue me in?

If you want to argue about what constitutes a sport, you'll be in for a very long day. Some say bowling is a sport, others do not. Shuffleboard? Sport too. Maybe. Bikini? Why not?

Bodybuilding's roots go back to the nineteenth century. Many historians trace it back to the one Mr. Sandow. He inspiration came from admiring Greek and Roman statues from antiquity. One could persuasively argue that throughout history, bodybuilding was essentially about sculpting the body, shaping the physique in terms of an imagined, lofty aesthetic ideal (e.g., classical statues). The Victorians were fascinated with ideals and virtue (but of course that fascination was very complex and paradoxical). Of course, bodybuilding always had the element of muscle, but that aesthetic ideal, the act of shaping the physique was the real goal.

Applying this logic to bikini, I believe the competitors work hard. I believe they are dedicated. They spend time in the gym. They lift weights (maybe not to maximize lean mass, but to tone). They diet. They tan. They prep. But more importantly, what they are doing is fundamentally no different than bodybuilders have been doing for more than a century, and that is, shaping their physiques, aspiring to achieve a beautiful and aesthetic form. Bodybuilding, whether "bodybuilding" as we know it today or fitness or bikini, is ultimately about this process I think – this desire for using the human form as a canvas for creating beautiful art. Who are we to judge what defines art? This is a rhetorical question, of course.

In the end, I believe over the past few decades, the aesthetic criteria has shifted from the human form as art, as beauty, to the mass accumulation of raw muscle. Our "objective" lens for assessing and defining what bodybuilding is has changed dramatically over the years. Quantity over quality? You judge. Somewhere, along the line though, I think bodybuilding has lost it's way. To me, it was never really about the "muscles". In a way, the development of bodybuilding parallels the evolution of pornography.

History has a way of working in cycles. When I think of some of the great female bodybuilders from the 70s like McLish, are they really different than today's crop of bikini contestants? Subjectivity is in the eye of the beholder, I presume. Anyway, competitive bodybuilding as we know is becoming more and more irrelevant everyday. Bikini, looking at it cynically, is just a way for some to hold onto to it. What is growing and what is shrinking? Men's bodybuilding? Women's bodybuilding? Figure? Fitness? Bikini? The truth is in the numbers.

Beowulf
12-17-09, 10:29 am
its an effort by the ifbb to generate more awareness if you will and interest in all things bb related. no offense to anyone but hot chicks in bikinis sells to a more wide audience than muscled women and men do. Not to knock anyone who does those contests, but its a more softcore version of what attracts most of us the sport.

i guess the best way to get my point across is by comparing it to a gateway drug.


I can see how it is marketable, but is it bodybuilding?

There is no such thing as a gateway drug, only gateway people.

Define bodybuilding. Without a working definition, you can't have a meaningful discussion.

GJN5002
12-17-09, 11:05 am
just go to your local strip club and you will find plenty of candidates for "bikini pros." I think it is ridiculous to give someone a pro card for looking good in a bikini. If thats the case, we need mens european cut brief division. Its simply a ploy to get people to attend bodybuilding shows and in my opinion makes bodybuilding more of a joke. I am by no means saying these women arent beautiful or I wouldnt go watch it, but to get a pro bikini card is insane.

7
12-17-09, 11:07 am
just go to your local strip club and you will find plenty of candidates for "bikini pros." I think it is ridiculous to give someone a pro card for looking good in a bikini. If thats the case, we need mens european cut brief division. Its simply a ploy to get people to attend bodybuilding shows and in my opinion makes bodybuilding more of a joke. I am by no means saying these women arent beautiful or I wouldnt go watch it, but to get a pro bikini card is insane.

A very unenlightened stance. I find your analogy to strippers facile, but hey, you are welcome to your opinion.

U Mad Brah?
12-17-09, 11:59 am
it's gotta be tough to get in those bikinis brahs. gotta give em props for training, eating and working to get on stage brahs. different than bodybuilding but still lots of work there brahs. let's not hate on our bikini clad ladies brahs

7
12-17-09, 12:05 pm
it's gotta be tough to get in those bikinis brahs. gotta give em props for training, eating and working to get on stage brahs. different than bodybuilding but still lots of work there brahs. let's not hate on our bikini clad ladies brahs

Lol. I like the cut of your jib.

N. Motta
12-17-09, 12:26 pm
I am honestly not trying to hate on anyone but I seriously would like to understand how "bikini" became a sport? Maybe I do not understand the make up of this contest? What does it have to do with bodybuilding? I understand that to look good in a bikini you have to work out but I am confused as to what that has to do with muscle? Could someone please clue me in?

Money. Sex sells. That's it. That's all.

7
12-17-09, 12:28 pm
Money. Sex sells. That's it. That's all.

Women in bikinis = sex
Men in posting trunks = not sex

Smacks of a sexist comment my friend.

N. Motta
12-17-09, 12:30 pm
Women in bikinis = sex
Men in posting trunks = not sex

Smacks of a sexist comment my friend.

Hey it is, what it is.

U Mad Brah?
12-17-09, 12:31 pm
both are getting up on stage brahs to show of their bodies brahs. to me it seems both are about appearances in a way brahs

U Mad Brah?
12-17-09, 12:34 pm
think of it this way brahs... aren't these bikini clad women showing off the ideal female phsyque and the men showing off theirs brahs? why the hate brahs

7
12-17-09, 12:35 pm
Hey it is, what it is.

Lol, at least you're honest. I can respect that.

Still, I find the double standard predictable. Women wear bikinis on stage, and they're called strippers. Men wear posing trunks on stage, and they're bodybuilders. I have no doubt that the bikini competitors work hard and pay their dues, just like bodybuilders. Who am I to judge their efforts? Who am I to judge that what they do is without value (or worse, subject to ridicule as found in this thread)? Sadly, I think for many, their evaluation of bikini competitors is largely shaped by pre-existing notions of gender and difference.

7
12-17-09, 12:36 pm
think of it this way brahs... aren't these bikini clad women showing off the ideal female phsyque and the men showing off theirs brahs? why the hate brahs

"showing off their brahs" with "brahs" being what?

U Mad Brah?
12-17-09, 12:39 pm
it's west coast talk brah. there's supposed to be a pause after the word "their"... brah
what i mean is showing of their physique brah

7
12-17-09, 12:40 pm
it's west coast talk brah. there's supposed to be a pause after the word "their"... brah
what i mean is showing of their physique brah

Lol. Your posts have a logic all to their own.

G Diesel
12-17-09, 12:44 pm
I've known a lot of beautiful women in my day that had whatever kind of trepidation and apprehension to put on a bikini and head to the beach. Let alone to be in the kind of shape to stand on stage in front of a panel to be judged. Some of those girls are in sick shape and that takes serious training and dieting.

It is all about preference, but I'd rather see a girl who is feminine and in great shape, than a woman who has altered her physiology to push the limits of bodybuilding. I have the utmost respect for all hard working athletes of all shapes and sizes that do it right, but I like what I like. If bodybuilding regardless of gender, is to present the best, most developed masculine muscular ideal then let's call it what it is and judge the women just as we do the men. If we need bikini to judge the feminine physical ideal and fitness to shine light on female athletes, then I see nothing wrong with that. Different stroke for different folks.

We can quibble over semantics all we want but it is all to some degree a beauty pageant. Let's not lie to ourselves. It is a skin game.

Male or female bodybuilding. Who buys tickets? Dudes. Kind of like Playboy and Playgirl. You think one is bought exclusively by men and the other by women? Wrong. Both are bought by dudes.

Peace, G

U Mad Brah?
12-17-09, 12:45 pm
I've known a lot of beautiful women in my day that had whatever kind of trepidation and apprehension to put on a bikini and head to the beach. Let alone to be in the kind of shape to stand on stage in front of a panel to be judged. Some of those girls are in sick shape and that takes serious training and dieting.

It is all about preference, but I'd rather see a girl who is feminine and in great shape, than a woman who has altered her physiology to push the limits of bodybuilding. I have the utmost respect for all hard working athletes of all shapes and sizes that do it right, but I like what I like. If bodybuilding regardless of gender, is to present the best, most developed masculine muscular ideal then let's call it what it is and judge the women just as we do the men. If we need bikini to judge the feminine physical ideal and fitness to shine light on female athletes, then I see nothing wrong with that. Different stroke for different folks.

We can quibble over semantics all we want but it is all to some degree a beauty pageant. Let's not lie to ourselves.

Peace, G

G- you've got a much better way with words than this brah, but i think you hit it home with this one brah

7
12-17-09, 12:46 pm
We can quibble over semantics all we want but it is all to some degree a beauty pageant. Let's not lie to ourselves.

Peace, G

But denial is so much easier than acceptance Mr. Diesel.

G Diesel
12-17-09, 12:47 pm
G- you've got a much better way with words than this brah, but i think you hit it home with this one brah


But denial is so much easier than acceptance Mr. Diesel.

I edited mine to "go in" a little further, gents. Too far? You decide.

Peace, G

N. Motta
12-17-09, 12:47 pm
Lol, at least you're honest. I can respect that.

Still, I find the double standard predictable. Women wear bikinis on stage, and they're called strippers. Men wear posing trunks on stage, and they're bodybuilders. I have no doubt that the bikini competitors work hard and pay their dues, just like bodybuilders. Who am I to judge their efforts? Who am I to judge that what they do is without value (or worse, subject to ridicule as found in this thread)? Sadly, I think for many, their evaluation of bikini competitors is largely shaped by pre-existing notions of gender and difference.

I for one have no qualms with the bikini division. I have no problem saying those girls are very easy on the eyes.

The only thing that I think detracts from it's credibility is how easy I have seen some of these women earn their pro cards in the event. At the recent Nationals competition, I saw many a interview with the winners, where they stated that they started training a couple months before the show. Total. Many great looking women in figure work for years and years and years, never cracking the top five, yet they too look amazing. And let's face it, their dedication involving training and diet trumps that of the most dedicated bikini competitor.

But all in all, it is still about the benjamins; baby. Promoters will sell more tickets, a few more publications will be sold and so fourth....




...BRAH!!!

U Mad Brah?
12-17-09, 12:50 pm
Male or female bodybuilding. Who buys tickets? Dudes. Kind of like Playboy and Playgirl. You think one is bought exclusively by men and the other by women? Wrong. Both are bought by dudes.

Peace, G

that's the g for p i was talking about in the another thread G brah. no one got it though brah... but i get wat u mean brah

7
12-17-09, 12:52 pm
The only thing that I think detracts from it's credibility is how easy I have seen some of these women earn their pro cards in the event. At the recent Nationals competition, I saw many a interview with the winners, where they stated that they started training a couple months before the show. Total. Many great looking women in figure work for years and years and years, never cracking the top five, yet they too look amazing. And let's face it, their dedication involving training and diet trumps that of the most dedicated bikini competitor.


As neither a bikini competitor nor NPC insider, I can't comment. But perhaps "politics" has something to do with this, if true. Regardless, I do think it's part of an overall strategy to keep "bodybuilding" relevant and to continue driving paying fans to the shows and support the "bodybuilding industrial complex". Ultimately, I don't think it will work unless they fundamentally change men's bodybuilding and its direction.

N. Motta
12-17-09, 12:57 pm
I hear that. How ironic would it be if somehow, the bikini division was the catalyst that finally was able to make the whole fitness/bodybuilding sport accepted by main stream media? Long shot, but still. That could be one of the many angels at play.

Honestly, credibility or not, there is not a woman in America that could say, without lying through their teeth, that they do not appreciate, admire and/or covet the figure displayed by the women that compete in bikini.

G Diesel
12-17-09, 12:57 pm
I for one have no qualms with the bikini division. I have no problem saying those girls are very easy on the eyes.

The only thing that I think detracts from it's credibility is how easy I have seen some of these women earn their pro cards in the event. At the recent Nationals competition, I saw many a interview with the winners, where they stated that they started training a couple months before the show. Total. Many great looking women in figure work for years and years and years, never cracking the top five, yet they too look amazing. And let's face it, their dedication involving training and diet trumps that of the most dedicated bikini competitor.

But all in all, it is still about the benjamins; baby. Promoters will sell more tickets, a few more publications will be sold and so fourth....




...BRAH!!!

I dig it... The reason fitness came about was so the pretty girls could do less drugs and stay more feminine. But the reason figure was invented was because too many of the prettier girls in fitness couldn't do backflips and handstands. The reason bikini was developed was because the figure girls were getting too hard and chiseled. What happens when the jaw lines start blowing up and skin goes bad in bikini?

Peace, G

Beowulf
12-17-09, 1:00 pm
I dig it... The reason fitness came about was so the pretty girls could do less drugs and stay more feminine. But the reason figure was invented was because too many of the prettier girls in fitness couldn't do backflips and handstands. The reason bikini was developed was because the figure girls were getting to hard and chiseled. What happens when the jaw lines start blowing up and skin goes bad in bikini?

Peace, G

Is this a rhetorical question?

N. Motta
12-17-09, 1:01 pm
I dig it... The reason fitness came about was so the pretty girls could do less drugs and stay more feminine. But the reason figure was invented was because too many of the prettier girls in fitness couldn't do backflips and handstands. The reason bikini was developed was because the figure girls were getting too hard and chiseled. What happens when the jaw lines start blowing up and skin goes bad in bikini?

Peace, G

Is it preposterous to speculate that in an attempt to garner more acceptance with corporate America and the main stream media, that a similar chain of events could unfold with the men?

Beowulf
12-17-09, 1:02 pm
Is it preposterous to speculate that in an attempt to garner more acceptance with corporate America and the main stream media, that a similar chain of events could unfold with the men?

You mean men competing on stage in bikinis?

naturalguy
12-17-09, 1:03 pm
I dig it... The reason fitness came about was so the pretty girls could do less drugs and stay more feminine. But the reason figure was invented was because too many of the prettier girls in fitness couldn't do backflips and handstands. The reason bikini was developed was because the figure girls were getting too hard and chiseled. What happens when the jaw lines start blowing up and skin goes bad in bikini?

Peace, G

You ain't wrong. Some of the figure girls of today are more muscular than Cory Everson was when she was Ms. Olympia.

G Diesel
12-17-09, 1:06 pm
You ain't wrong. Some of the figure girls of today are more muscular than Cory Everson was when she was Ms. Olympia.

I liked Cory and Rachel and Gladys.

What was so bad about that?

Peace, G

7
12-17-09, 1:06 pm
You ain't wrong. Some of the figure girls of today are more muscular than Cory Everson was when she was Ms. Olympia.

I prefer Rachel McLish myself. To me, the epitome of feminine grace, power and beauty. Back in the 70s, bodybuilding following two streams, one for the men and one for the women. Today, they follow the same stream. At some point, bodybuilding became synonymous with "muscle" I think. Muscle is today's mantra. In the past, the sport was tied more to "aesthetics". As an aesthetic pursuit, women could be feminine still and men could be masculine. With today's paradigm, women and men must be masculine. That's why I like bikini. At least, that's how I justify my thinking intellectually speaking, lol.

G Diesel
12-17-09, 1:10 pm
Is this a rhetorical question?

No such thing 'round these parts.


I prefer Rachel McLish myself. To me, the epitome of feminine grace, power and beauty. Back in the 70s, bodybuilding following two streams, one for the men and one for the women. Today, they follow the same stream. At some point, bodybuilding became synonymous with "muscle" I think. Muscle is today's mantra. In the past, the sport was tied more to "aesthetics". As an aesthetic pursuit, women could be feminine still and men could be masculine. With today's paradigm, women and men must be masculine. That's why I like bikini. At least, that's how I justify my thinking intellectually speaking, lol.

Preach.

Peace, G

Beowulf
12-17-09, 1:27 pm
No such thing 'round these parts.


I wonder. The ideals of beauty are different across cultures and are constantly in a state of flux. What defines the essence of femininity? And are you looking at things through your own cultural perspective?

7
12-17-09, 1:58 pm
Preach.

Peace, G

I'm just speaking my mind. To me, the real conversation is not about "bikini" vs. "figure" vs. "fitness" vs. "bodybuilding". It's about the volatile, ever-changing nature of taste, distinction, value , and the like – all those things which define human aesthetic, economic and political pursuits. The real value is not asking whether bikini is a sport but interrogating why we are asking the question in the first place and how we arrive at the answers.

belladiabla13
12-17-09, 1:58 pm
I know many female bodybuilders who have trouble even finding shows to get into. They have all but cut female heavy weights out in many of the pro shows, but are now giving pro cards away for bikini models. I guess that is where my conflicts and concerns really are. Cut out the athletes who have spent their lives working as hard as many of the men to promote women who could be doing pageants anywhere else instead? I am not discrediting anyone who takes the stage. My big ass would not stand up there in a bikini nor does anyone want to see it, but my true opinion is it takes away from the integrity of the sport.

N. Motta
12-17-09, 2:01 pm
Integrity falls way behind money.

7
12-17-09, 2:03 pm
I know many female bodybuilders who have trouble even finding shows to get into. They have all but cut female heavy weights out in many of the pro shows, but are now giving pro cards away for bikini models. I guess that is where my conflicts and concerns really are. Cut out the athletes who have spent their lives working as hard as many of the men to promote women who could be doing pageants anywhere else instead? I am not discrediting anyone who takes the stage. My big ass would not stand up there in a bikini nor does anyone want to see it, but my true opinion is it takes away from the integrity of the sport.

In your estimation, wherein lies the cause? What or who is to blame? The competitors for "playing the game"? The NPC or IFBB for establishing the rules of the game as they did? Or the fans for not supporting female bodybuilding? Why do women approximate male aesthetic values? Why are women forced to accommodate pre-existing male bodybuilding criteria? To force change, all must engage in revolution.

7
12-17-09, 2:05 pm
Integrity falls way behind money.

You make it sound like this is a bad thing, lol. Everyone has a price they're willing to pay. We are simply products of a post-capitalist society, no?

N. Motta
12-17-09, 2:07 pm
You make it sound like this is a bad thing, lol. Everyone has a price they're willing to pay. We are simply products of a post-capitalist society, no?

That we are. Whether I'm ashamed to admit it, or not.

belladiabla13
12-17-09, 3:54 pm
You ain't wrong. Some of the figure girls of today are more muscular than Cory Everson was when she was Ms. Olympia.

But figure and fitness requires athletic figures. Bikini girls look like any girl in your Hooters across America. Yes, they are BEAUTIFUL women. But my point is looking good in a bikini does not make you a bodybuilder. If they started a speedo contest for very thin men and made that a new division in men's bodybuilding..I wonder what the guys would have to say about that? Would that be called bodybuilding?

Beowulf
12-17-09, 3:55 pm
I know many female bodybuilders who have trouble even finding shows to get into. They have all but cut female heavy weights out in many of the pro shows, but are now giving pro cards away for bikini models. I guess that is where my conflicts and concerns really are. Cut out the athletes who have spent their lives working as hard as many of the men to promote women who could be doing pageants anywhere else instead? I am not discrediting anyone who takes the stage. My big ass would not stand up there in a bikini nor does anyone want to see it, but my true opinion is it takes away from the integrity of the sport.

Unfortunately belladiabla, I don't think the numbers work for the IFBB. Truth is, I don't see how it could have sustained it over the long haul, for better or worse. But this is a simple matter of economics I think. It's hard to take that personally, or question the integrity of the entire sport an account of waning fan interest.

belladiabla13
12-17-09, 3:57 pm
In your estimation, wherein lies the cause? What or who is to blame? The competitors for "playing the game"? The NPC or IFBB for establishing the rules of the game as they did? Or the fans for not supporting female bodybuilding? Why do women approximate male aesthetic values? Why are women forced to accommodate pre-existing male bodybuilding criteria? To force change, all must engage in revolution.

Not every woman wants to be a size 0. Having big muscles does not make you less feminine. Everyone has their opinion on what looks good yes, but giving pro cards to girls in bikini contests is an insult to women who bust their ass under the iron!

belladiabla13
12-17-09, 3:59 pm
Unfortunately belladiabla, I don't think the numbers work for the IFBB. Truth is, I don't see how it could have sustained it over the long haul, for better or worse. But this is a simple matter of economics I think. It's hard to take that personally, or question the integrity of the entire sport an account of waning fan interest.

I can see your point. WWE did the same thing bringing in the DIVAS.

7
12-17-09, 4:01 pm
But figure and fitness requires athletic figures. Bikini girls look like any girl in your Hooters across America. Yes, they are BEAUTIFUL women. But my point is looking good in a bikini does not make you a bodybuilder. If they started a speedo contest for very thin men and made that a new division in men's bodybuilding..I wonder what the guys would have to say about that? Would that be called bodybuilding?


Not every woman wants to be a size 0. Having big muscles does not make you less feminine. Everyone has their opinion on what looks good yes, but giving pro cards to girls in bikini contests is an insult to women who bust their ass under the iron!

You make it sound like bikini girls do nothing to maintain their physiques, as if their physiques require no work or maintenance. I'm pretty sure that's not the case. While it may be true they don't train as "hard" in the gym, so what? How hard you train in the gym or how muscular you look is the only way to earn one's respect? I'm guessing you would define bodybuilding as a sport where one attempts to accumulate as much mass as possible, male or female. At some point, everyone has to draw the line for themselves. When has a woman's sport crossed that imaginary line? When does a woman stop looking like a woman and have to start shaving their body in places they never had to before? Bikini, figure, fitness, bodybuilding – I think all the ladies work hard. Who am I to judge who works harder or the incremental value that's derived on that scale of work ethic?

GJN5002
12-17-09, 4:02 pm
A very unenlightened stance. I find your analogy to strippers facile, but hey, you are welcome to your opinion.

I dont see anything to be enlightened about with regard to a bikini contest. I was being facetious for the most part, just stirring the fire, but in all honesty you dont think giving a bikini model a "pro" card discredits the sport at all? If attendance and interest at bbing shows wsnt lagging this wouldnt be happening. Have you seen a legit bikini contest yet?

7
12-17-09, 4:05 pm
I dont see anything to be enlightened about with regard to a bikini contest. I was being facetious for the most part, just stirring the fire, but in all honesty you dont think giving a bikini model a "pro" card discredits the sport at all? If attendance and interest at bbing shows wsnt lagging this wouldnt be happening. Have you seen a legit bikini contest yet?

Discredits the sport? How about what male bodybuilders do? Is that OK for the sport but women in bikinis is not? Smacks of a double standard.

Like I said before, in many ways, the sport of bodybuilding is like porn. Whether it's legit or not depends on where you're coming from.

GJN5002
12-17-09, 4:13 pm
Discredits the sport? How about what male bodybuilders do? Is that OK for the sport but women in bikinis is not? Smacks of a double standard.

Like I said before, in many ways, the sport of bodybuilding is like porn. Whether it's legit or not depends on where you're coming from.

I understand where you are coming from, nothing is really clearcut in bodybuilding and it could be easily argued that its not even a sport. i think my bias comes from the fact that they give out pro cards to women for figure, fitness, bodybuilding, and bikini and usually several at each show, while men are fighting for 1 card per weight class. Many times womens pro cards are transferable in the sense that they can get a figure pro card and compete in fitness as a pro. Men just dont have those options.

U Mad Brah?
12-17-09, 4:50 pm
it's about what the majority want to watch, right brahs? not sure that women's bodybuilding nowadays is that popular brahs... too extreme brahs... it's taking the female form to the opposite end of the spectrum of where nature intended it to be brahs... anything to that brahs?

7
12-17-09, 4:58 pm
it's about what the majority want to watch, right brahs? not sure that women's bodybuilding nowadays is that popular brahs... too extreme brahs... it's taking the female form to the opposite end of the spectrum of where nature intended it to be brahs... anything to that brahs?

Dare I ask, by "form", you are referring in generalities or to specifics?

Muscleguy93
12-17-09, 10:35 pm
Bikini A sport?, hell no. Womens bodybuilding? yes.

jeff00z28
12-18-09, 12:11 am
the non-hardcore will come and bring in revenue so they can jack off. Good idea as long as theres not a beach boys contest.

U Mad Brah?
12-18-09, 9:08 am
Dare I ask, by "form", you are referring in generalities or to specifics?

just in generalities 7 brah... i think we're overthinking the bikini thing... what they do doesn't hurt me a bit brahs. to each their own my good brahs

dannynb
12-18-09, 9:21 am
Like many have said, the Bikini division sells tickets. The IFBB witnessed these different federations that have bikini classes drawing in large numbers and unfortunately bodybuilding audiences aren't growing that fast. Most shows I go to not even half the seats are filled up. So this is another way to bring money and attention to the sport. Now as for the women being considered athletes or not, I can say this past year I trained 3 women for the bikini class and all 3 trained just as hard as anyone I have trained for bb'ing, or figure. Yes they did not have to diet to the extremes as the others but they put in just as much hard work.

7
12-18-09, 11:34 am
Now as for the women being considered athletes or not, I can say this past year I trained 3 women for the bikini class and all 3 trained just as hard as anyone I have trained for bb'ing, or figure.

This was one of my contentions, yes. Is bodybuilding only defined by just how hard or who trains the hardest? I don't think so. Is bodybuilding defined by how much drugs a competitor uses, whether for adding muscle or getting shredded? I don't think so. It's about shaping one's physique towards some ideal or goal, whether that ideal is something you define for yourself or something that's established per a federation or governing body.

Beowulf
12-22-09, 4:17 pm
Like many have said, the Bikini division sells tickets. The IFBB witnessed these different federations that have bikini classes drawing in large numbers and unfortunately bodybuilding audiences aren't growing that fast. Most shows I go to not even half the seats are filled up. So this is another way to bring money and attention to the sport. Now as for the women being considered athletes or not, I can say this past year I trained 3 women for the bikini class and all 3 trained just as hard as anyone I have trained for bb'ing, or figure. Yes they did not have to diet to the extremes as the others but they put in just as much hard work.

Aren't growing that fast? Or any growing at all? At a lot of the local shows, most of the people aren't fans. They are either friends or family members of those competing. It wasn't always like that.

GJN5002
12-22-09, 4:27 pm
IFBB Pros get the money and fame because they take real risks with lifetstyle, drugs, etc. Female BBing just isnt a popular becuase most men dont find it sexually appealing. Most men however think being huge is cool so they will support mens bodybuilding. Figure and fitness, from my perspective, is only popular with the people compteting in it and bikini is popular with the girls that compete and horny guys. To say bikini does anything but sell tickets is giving too much credit. I'm sure they work hard, but 2 hours on a treadmill and a boob job is a bit different than thousands of dollars in drugs, a year of preperation, a potentially life altering consequences. To put a bikini pro on the same level as a bodybuilding pro is ridiculous, no matter how enlightened or progressive you want to be. Why do they have ring girls or cheerleaders then? TNA or because they are at the same level as the athletes around them?