Failure and no failure ..what you think?

[Gio71]

This Article says if you dont do a last set to failure and only till fatigue you cant expect much growth, significent grwoth only occur when you take a set to failure in the 6-12 rep range http://animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?ID=227&section=training


And ronnie coleman says NEVER GO TO FAILURE
: http://www.ronniecoleman.net/artlaggingmuscles.html


I dont believe that if you dont go to failure you wont grow much.. I mean you could lift all day then .. what you think?

[mritter3]

i dont think you have to take every set to failure to grow...by lifting you are tearing your muscles up and causing inflammation, by re fueling your body with good proteins and carbs you are making your body grow...the key is to mix it up a bit as far as training goes, every once in a great moon ill take a set to complete failure...but not every workout.

[violator]

what works for some, might not work for others...find out what works for YOU!

[msktyshha]

go failure but not often cause it effects recovery. if u can recover fast than go failure often

[Razor]

It all depends on your training actually. Right now i'm doing a lot of supersets which of course ends in some type of failure in the 8-12 rep range. But in a week or two i will again be going super heavy with around 3-4 sets ending in 2-3 reps. It's all on how your body responds. My advice is to experiment bro. Everyone is different and there's always another way to push your body past its limits.

[NaturalTrainee]

When training to MOMENTARY-POSITIVE-CONTROLLED failure you are taking a deep dive into your body's recuperation system and also, when on a low rep range(less than 5 reps) will also damage your CNS severely. Because of the terrific ammounts of stress it will ignite(and thus it will lead VERY easily to overtraining) only one or two sets per exercise should be taken to failure on exercise protocols that allow for a good ammount of recovery, a small ammount of sets and very careful planning. Training to failure has a very good scientific base(and some gaps as well) but the same goes for volume training. Both protocols use different paths to achieve the very same goal and neither can be crystallized as the best since both work under the same circumstances as you will see if you read researches. Both should be practised and alternated because change triggers muscle growth.

That being said, I don't regard anything Coleman says as trustworthy and rational. Why? Because with his genetics and the LARGE quantities of steroids he uses everything will work.

[Aggression]

I've experimented wit both. I've trained high volume going to failure on maybe the last set of the first 1-2 exercises (example: incline db, then flat bb press for chest). Then I would train to 'almost failure' on the rest of the exercises. I have seen great growth.

I'm currently training HIT, where that one main set is taken to failure and beyond; every exercises. For chest, it'd be; Incline BB, flat DB, flat fly, and weight dips: all taken to failure and beyond for that one set. I have seen great growth.

Both work for for me, so I tend to incorporate both strategies in my training. ~8 weeks HIT, and then a few weeks with the other. Find what works for you and run with it. Keep a log that shows your progress.

[Razor]

I've experimented wit both. I've trained high volume going to failure on maybe the last set of the first 1-2 exercises (example: incline db, then flat bb press for chest). Then I would train to 'almost failure' on the rest of the exercises. I have seen great growth.

I'm currently training HIT, where that one main set is taken to failure and beyond; every exercises. For chest, it'd be; Incline BB, flat DB, flat fly, and weight dips: all taken to failure and beyond for that one set. I have seen great growth.

Both work for for me, so I tend to incorporate both strategies in my training. ~8 weeks HIT, and then a few weeks with the other. Find what works for you and run with it. Keep a log that shows your progress.


Stated perfectly. I have just started switching things for a little over a week. I finally feel absoultely dead walking out of the gym and my body feels it the next morning. But it took me switching things up to spark it. i have yet to meet or speak to a bodybuilder that used the same program their entire career. Whenever you ask them what's their workout like they always begin with "well right now i'm...".

[fenix237]

I'm currently training HIT, where that one main set is taken to failure and beyond; every exercises. For chest, it'd be; Incline BB, flat DB, flat fly, and weight dips: all taken to failure and beyond for that one set. I have seen great growth.

Aggression- when you say failure and beyond, do you mean using forced reps and negatives?

[Aggression]

Aggression- when you say failure and beyond, do you mean using forced reps and negatives?

Forced reps. I'll hit my set to failure and then have a spotter give me another 2-3 reps. I don't do negatives on a regular basis. They are something I just do 'on the fly', mostly when I feel my set wasn't as 'productive' as I liked, then I'll take one negative to really blast it out.

[Gio71]

I've experimented wit both. I've trained high volume going to failure on maybe the last set of the first 1-2 exercises (example: incline db, then flat bb press for chest). Then I would train to 'almost failure' on the rest of the exercises. I have seen great growth.

I'm currently training HIT, where that one main set is taken to failure and beyond; every exercises. For chest, it'd be; Incline BB, flat DB, flat fly, and weight dips: all taken to failure and beyond for that one set. I have seen great growth.

Both work for for me, so I tend to incorporate both strategies in my training. ~8 weeks HIT, and then a few weeks with the other. Find what works for you and run with it. Keep a log that shows your progress.

lets say i wanna do this routine http://www.animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?ID=162
and i want to do for example skull crushers it says 4 sets 12,10,8,8 and no failure, now how i understood it ( and done it in the past) first set with a weight i can to 12 reps almost to failure, add a 5 lbs plate and do 10 reps to almost failure( always feel the muscle hard) and so on, maybe last set to failure if its the first exercise, and for the next exercise the same every set with a weight almost to failure. would it be right?

[Aggression]

lets say i wanna do this routine http://www.animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?ID=162
and i want to do for example skull crushers it says 4 sets 12,10,8,8 and no failure, now how i understood it ( and done it in the past) first set with a weight i can to 12 reps almost to failure, add a 5 lbs plate and do 10 reps to almost failure( always feel the muscle hard) and so on, maybe last set to failure if its the first exercise, and for the next exercise the same every set with a weight almost to failure. would it be right?

Sounds right to me, Gio. Just be sure to push hard. Don't get stuck on a number. If you hit 8 reps and still have a bit left in the tank, crank another 2 reps out. Those numbers serve as a baseline for your reps. For example, on the last set, you should be in the ballpark of 8 reps. If you only get 7, fine. If you push it to 12, then great, just remember to go up next time in weight.

Another example. I train for one all-out set with a few light warmups done prior. I was doing leg press for the first time in a while, so I wasn't sure where to be in terms of weight. I put a weight on that I thought I'd be OK reaching 10-12 reps with. I ended up doing 20 reps with that weight. I didn't stop at 12 b/c that's what the manual said. I kept going until I hit failure.

Those numbers serve as baseline for muscle growth. A few reps less/more is nothing to worry about. Push yourself hard and you'll be fine.

[Gio71]

Sounds right to me, Gio. Just be sure to push hard. Don't get stuck on a number. If you hit 8 reps and still have a bit left in the tank, crank another 2 reps out. Those numbers serve as a baseline for your reps. For example, on the last set, you should be in the ballpark of 8 reps. If you only get 7, fine. If you push it to 12, then great, just remember to go up next time in weight.

Another example. I train for one all-out set with a few light warmups done prior. I was doing leg press for the first time in a while, so I wasn't sure where to be in terms of weight. I put a weight on that I thought I'd be OK reaching 10-12 reps with. I ended up doing 20 reps with that weight. I didn't stop at 12 b/c that's what the manual said. I kept going until I hit failure.

Those numbers serve as baseline for muscle growth. A few reps less/more is nothing to worry about. Push yourself hard and you'll be fine.

i know what you mean, when i start a new exercise ive never did before, i pick a weight that i think is hard, when its not as hard as i thought and ive done 20 reps, i put some more plates on the bar.

i think everybody who trains hard knows, how much reps he can do more,because rep after rep it gets more difficult to push the weight up, i know when i barely done 7 reps i know i will reach failure on the next rep , so i stop or do a negative to feel it a bit more , thats what i mean with almost to failure.

[live2lift]

This Article says if you dont do a last set to failure and only till fatigue you cant expect much growth, significent grwoth only occur when you take a set to failure in the 6-12 rep range http://animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?ID=227&section=training


And ronnie coleman says NEVER GO TO FAILURE
: http://www.ronniecoleman.net/artlaggingmuscles.html


I dont believe that if you dont go to failure you wont grow much.. I mean you could lift all day then .. what you think?

I think there is good failure and bad failure. Good failure is when you have a set number of reps you are trying to achieve, say 10 for example, and you are on your ninth rep and you start to struggle. You go for the tenth rep and almost get it but fail...that is good failure. Bad failure IMO is when you try to take every set, every workout to failure. Failure is really taxing not only on the body but on the nervous system. Purposely going to failure everytime is almost sure to cause burnout unless you have the genetics to handle it. I personally believe that progressive overload is way more important than failure as far as building muscle goes. Always try to do more than you did last time is the key for me. But as others have said, what works for me may not work for you...try it and see.

Peace

[Aggression]

i know when i barely done 7 reps i know i will reach failure on the next rep , so i stop or do a negative to feel it a bit more , thats what i mean with almost to failure.

That's a solid way to judge it. If I'm hitting rep 8 and I know if I try that next rep, I'll need a spotter. If i don't have one, I'll rack the weight at 8 reps and be done with it.

[Gio71]

That's a solid way to judge it. If I'm hitting rep 8 and I know if I try that next rep, I'll need a spotter. If i don't have one, I'll rack the weight at 8 reps and be done with it.
exactly. thanks bro

[Gio71]

When training to MOMENTARY-POSITIVE-CONTROLLED failure you are taking a deep dive into your body's recuperation system and also, when on a low rep range(less than 5 reps) will also damage your CNS severely. Because of the terrific ammounts of stress it will ignite(and thus it will lead VERY easily to overtraining) only one or two sets per exercise should be taken to failure on exercise protocols that allow for a good ammount of recovery, a small ammount of sets and very careful planning. Training to failure has a very good scientific base(and some gaps as well) but the same goes for volume training. Both protocols use different paths to achieve the very same goal and neither can be crystallized as the best since both work under the same circumstances as you will see if you read researches. Both should be practised and alternated because change triggers muscle growth.

That being said, I don't regard anything Coleman says as trustworthy and rational. Why? Because with his genetics and the LARGE quantities of steroids he uses everything will work.

also thank you for your advice bro, i always forget that the pros take steroids, but i dont think it plays a role,because i want to be that big too, and when im big enough natural, i wanna do it the same way

[MrMonday]

This Article says if you dont do a last set to failure and only till fatigue you cant expect much growth, significent grwoth only occur when you take a set to failure in the 6-12 rep range http://animalpak.com/html/article_details.cfm?ID=227&section=training


And ronnie coleman says NEVER GO TO FAILURE
: http://www.ronniecoleman.net/artlaggingmuscles.html


I dont believe that if you dont go to failure you wont grow much.. I mean you could lift all day then .. what you think?

LOL I think you misunderstood that article with Ronnie Coleman. He definitely does not advise "never going to failure", did you even read anything past the headline for that section?

Personally I think people give way too much credit to concepts like "how many sets should I fail on" - when in reality, that kind of thing isn't even quantifiable first of all, and secondly it doesn't matter, at least not in the way some of you seem to think it does.

Muscle is built through big eating and progressive overload. You have to be hitting failure on your work sets, not because an internet guru says "fail here", but because if you're DB benching the 95s for 8 reps (you fail at 8 reps), you want to come back to that exercise week after week giving it your all until you can bench them for 12 reps. Bam, now you can move up to the 100s, start over again from the bottom and probably fail at 6,7,8 reps, but do a little more each workout.

How could you possibly NOT hit failure on those worksets in pursuit of a heavier poundage (and therefore a bigger muscle)?

Some people like to hit failure even on their warmup sets. Does it lower the amount of weight they can use on their worksets? Yes.

Does it actually matter in the long run? No, not as long as they're still progressing.

You just have to find your own style and your own way of doing things that leads to your best results; Just don't lose sight of what actually matters here: Safe technique, mind-muscle-connection, and progressive overload.

[NaturalTrainee]

I think there is good failure and bad failure. Good failure is when you have a set number of reps you are trying to achieve, say 10 for example, and you are on your ninth rep and you start to struggle. You go for the tenth rep and almost get it but fail...that is good failure. Bad failure IMO is when you try to take every set, every workout to failure. Failure is really taxing not only on the body but on the nervous system. Purposely going to failure everytime is almost sure to cause burnout unless you have the genetics to handle it. I personally believe that progressive overload is way more important than failure as far as building muscle goes. Always try to do more than you did last time is the key for me. But as others have said, what works for me may not work for you...try it and see.


I like this. What I refer to as "failure" is when you get to the last COMPLETE(no half movements) rep you can perform with PROPER(no momentum) form. Also, check this out:

http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/muscle.htm

[JasonG]

I subscribe to the same theories Mr. Monday.

I train every working set to positve failure and beyond if I have a partner and really focus on the negative as well but I don't go to negative failure. I keep a log of my workouts and strive to either increase weight or reps on everything every workout. My mentality is that if I don't progress then I need to reevaluate what I am doing. I know this isn't possible forever but I also incorporate periodization and give my joints and cns extra recovery when needed. I train a body part once a week and this is plenty of recovery time training this way for me.

[fenix237]

LOL I think you misunderstood that article with Ronnie Coleman. He definitely does not advise "never going to failure", did you even read anything past the headline for that section?

x1

Ronnie says "never go to failure...go WAY beyond it"- gotta read the entire article

there are advocates who say don't train to failure- "why would you want to fail at something?" is what i've read in the past. i always trained to failure, doing singles, doubles, triples etc..and my lift continually went up as a whole- i also had great success with progressive overload- for the most part, just put in the effort (you know it inside you) and you'll b fine at this point - MM

[Gio71]

LOL I think you misunderstood that article with Ronnie Coleman. He definitely does not advise "never going to failure", did you even read anything past the headline for that section?

Personally I think people give way too much credit to concepts like "how many sets should I fail on" - when in reality, that kind of thing isn't even quantifiable first of all, and secondly it doesn't matter, at least not in the way some of you seem to think it does.

Muscle is built through big eating and progressive overload. You have to be hitting failure on your work sets, not because an internet guru says "fail here", but because if you're DB benching the 95s for 8 reps (you fail at 8 reps), you want to come back to that exercise week after week giving it your all until you can bench them for 12 reps. Bam, now you can move up to the 100s, start over again from the bottom and probably fail at 6,7,8 reps, but do a little more each workout.

How could you possibly NOT hit failure on those worksets in pursuit of a heavier poundage (and therefore a bigger muscle)?

Some people like to hit failure even on their warmup sets. Does it lower the amount of weight they can use on their worksets? Yes.

Does it actually matter in the long run? No, not as long as they're still progressing.

You just have to find your own style and your own way of doing things that leads to your best results; Just don't lose sight of what actually matters here: Safe technique, mind-muscle-connection, and progressive overload.

Yo Bro ive heard that progressive overload a lot here now, im from germany and i dont know what you really mean with this could you explain it?

[NaturalTrainee]

The principle of constant and continuous progression by the increase of either reps or weight every time.

[Gio71]

The principle of constant and continuous progression by the increase of either reps or weight every time.

ahh so every other weak increase weight or reps ? that what im doing everytime i try to hit it harder, thanks bro for the information

[violator]

related:

http://www.rxmuscle.com/articles/romanos-rage/1071-i-gotta-straighten-something-out.html

[Goliathus]

yeah but progressive overload will only go so far..

[NaturalTrainee]

I find the swifts between high intensity and high volume to be the best of both worlds.

[The_Legacy]

I'm down for training to fialure, but i don't see the point training to failure for every set.

[intoodeep25]

i have found that, for myself, going to failure helps some of my bodyparts explode with growth and strength, and for others not so much, other approaches are needed. arm yourself with knowledge and then try different things to find out what helps your body make progress

[MrMonday]

yeah but progressive overload will only go so far..

Why do people always say this?

Progressive overload will go as far as your structural and physiological limit for muscle growth.

Obviously nobody is going to keep on adding weight until they're repping out 800lbs on the bench, because nobody is going to be able to build up a legit 80 inch chest. lol

That doesn't mean you shouldn't keep progressively overloading your muscles. When you reach the point where it can "only go so far", you will be massive.

[BionicMasterPiece]

yeah but progressive overload will only go so far..

so true...

[prowrestler]

depends...

i made my most obvious gains when i was 17, training high volume, to failure and eating like a horse.

probably coulda gained better though if i trained smarter back then.

i normaly take sets to form failure on most of my exercises. once form breaks down, stop.

for my big complexs, i plan the training out and never miss reps.

[ironshaolin]

Depends on your recovery, diet, stress, "extra" supplements, everything.

Training your body to failure produces lots of CNS fatigue, and is most likely to result in overtraining. For a natural trainee, with average genetics, its probably wise to avoid training to failure. Many people will just say that not training to failure means your a pussy or something, but it doesn't have to. Stopping short of failure is no excuse for not working hard, either. The old mentality is that its only the last rep or 2 of a set that produce growth. However, more studies are coming out showing that its the FORCE applied that creates the most growth, and learning to apply more force.

F=mass x acceleration. So, you can increase force either by loading more weight, or lifting that weight faster. If you take something like 8x3, and do 8 sets of 3 reps ramping up your weight progressively, with a focus on lifting that weight as hard as you can, you can turn every rep of every set leading up to your max force point into a growth stimulus. Why waste a whole workout if its only the last rep of a set that will produce results? IF you do that 8/3 with force spectrum ramping, when you get to the point you can no longer accelerate, you will train your body to produce greater force. The next time that workout is repeated, you will make it higher with your ramping, and over time if you add 50lbs to yoru bench press, REGARDLESS of wether you went to failure or not, you will be bigger.

The problem with failure is that it frys the CNS, thus leaving you in a dampened state, making it harder to recruit those large motor neurons to move the bar. For a natural trainee, this will actually lead to strength LOSS, instead of growth. It really doesn't matter if you go nuts bombing the hell out of your muscles with drop sets, supersets, forced negatives, whatever the fact is if in 1 year's time you're still benching the same weight you were a year ago, you won't grow.

[live2lift]

Why do people always say this?

Progressive overload will go as far as your structural and physiological limit for muscle growth.

Obviously nobody is going to keep on adding weight until they're repping out 800lbs on the bench, because nobody is going to be able to build up a legit 80 inch chest. lol

That doesn't mean you shouldn't keep progressively overloading your muscles. When you reach the point where it can "only go so far", you will be massive.

Gotta agree here. The body will adapt to anything that it is given, therefore you must try to force the body to not adapt by constantly trying to do more (weight or reps). The only way to make a muscle grow is to make it stronger (alot here wont agree with this)...you grow by getting stronger not by getting weaker. You can go to any gym and see the people who use the same weights all the time on their lifts and they always look the same. And they always will look the same as long as they do not force their bodies into growth.



Depends on your recovery, diet, stress, "extra" supplements, everything.

Training your body to failure produces lots of CNS fatigue, and is most likely to result in overtraining. For a natural trainee, with average genetics, its probably wise to avoid training to failure. Many people will just say that not training to failure means your a pussy or something, but it doesn't have to. Stopping short of failure is no excuse for not working hard, either. The old mentality is that its only the last rep or 2 of a set that produce growth. However, more studies are coming out showing that its the FORCE applied that creates the most growth, and learning to apply more force.

F=mass x acceleration. So, you can increase force either by loading more weight, or lifting that weight faster. If you take something like 8x3, and do 8 sets of 3 reps ramping up your weight progressively, with a focus on lifting that weight as hard as you can, you can turn every rep of every set leading up to your max force point into a growth stimulus. Why waste a whole workout if its only the last rep of a set that will produce results? IF you do that 8/3 with force spectrum ramping, when you get to the point you can no longer accelerate, you will train your body to produce greater force. The next time that workout is repeated, you will make it higher with your ramping, and over time if you add 50lbs to yoru bench press, REGARDLESS of wether you went to failure or not, you will be bigger.

The problem with failure is that it frys the CNS, thus leaving you in a dampened state, making it harder to recruit those large motor neurons to move the bar. For a natural trainee, this will actually lead to strength LOSS, instead of growth. It really doesn't matter if you go nuts bombing the hell out of your muscles with drop sets, supersets, forced negatives, whatever the fact is if in 1 year's time you're still benching the same weight you were a year ago, you won't grow.

Bingo. Too many people when they think about recovery only think in terms of bodyparts recovering. Truth is, if you continuously fry your CNS your training will go nowhere. The greatest BBer of our time in most people's eyes is Arnold and he was known for not taking sets to failure all the time. Gotta make you think doesn't it?

[Goliathus]

Yes, but why would someone take every excercise to a "true failure?"

YOu have to know yourself before you can train to failure...I think that is something everyone should take in. Each bodypart will respond much differently when taken to failure.
Ive had a decent amount of luck taking my arms to failure...however they already respond the best to training.

[msktyshha]

related:

http://www.rxmuscle.com/articles/romanos-rage/1071-i-gotta-straighten-something-out.html

fukin sweet ass article dude, before I used to curl 20lbs to infinity and I gained more then now when i curl 40lbs for 8-12 reps. Counting reps has made me lazy in the gym, and slowed my gains. the article reminded me how i used to train before, and for sure i am going to do "failure' not fatigue every last set of every workout now, especially curls lol cause it works for me