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theharjmann
02-09-10, 5:05 pm
i know that the following topic will cause some controversy on this forum...that not what im aiming for.

however; watch the following video....Dorian Yates, the legend himself quotes from his own mouth that squats didnt give him as good leg development as hack squats and leg press did.

http://mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/lifestyles/2010-md-spring-seminar/2662-gaspari-nutrition-presents-the-md-seminar-dorian-yates-leg-training.html

now i know that lots of people swear by squats and say that their huge legs came from squats (including king coleman), but i think this video offers a valid alternative

i personally have found that squats didnt cause my legs to grow as much as leg presses and hack squats have....maybe its because im not doing them right...who knows.

but i thought i would post this video as it is offers an interesting line of thought....

Universal Rep
02-09-10, 5:06 pm
Controversy??? Finally....

Wait wut?

Muscleguy93
02-09-10, 5:11 pm
Heres one more thing to think about, the amount of volume Yates did was much much less then ronnie. And yet they still both became Mr.O many times...it just shows how everyone is diffrent.

theharjmann
02-09-10, 5:14 pm
Heres one more thing to think about, the amount of volume Yates did was much much less then ronnie. And yet they still both became Mr.O many times...it just shows how everyone is diffrent.

exactly. thats what im trying to get at; because usually if someone says "i want bigger legs, what shall i do," a standard caveat answer is usally "squat". But this isnt always the case...

J Wong
02-09-10, 5:15 pm
Well for 3 weeks straight, I only did squats (smolov base mesocycle). I dropped about 7 lbs, and put 2.5 inches on my legs.

So you know what I prefer for legs.

Muscleguy93
02-09-10, 5:19 pm
exactly. thats what im trying to get at; because usually if someone says "i want bigger legs, what shall i do," a standard caveat answer is usally "squat". But this isnt always the case...

I know what you mean. Thats why BBing is the hardest sport, there are no rules set in stone. people need to find what works FOR YOU and not the other guy.

Ricky P
02-09-10, 5:26 pm
I know what you mean. Thats why BBing is the hardest sport, there are no rules set in stone. people need to find what works FOR YOU and not the other guy.

Absolutely. X2.

Mr. Dead
02-09-10, 5:29 pm
Absolutely. X2.

x3...

JUGGERNAUT
02-09-10, 5:55 pm
All 3 move in a similar plane. Don't think that any "one" of them are the best so do them all, no controversy here. Personally I do feel hack squats will damage your knees before the others though. Hacks hurt my knees more than the rest anytime I do them.

Training builds muscle but I could be wrong about that.

Personal fav still = squats

BryanSmash!
02-09-10, 6:03 pm
i know that the following topic will cause some controversy on this forum...that not what im aiming for.

however; watch the following video....Dorian Yates, the legend himself quotes from his own mouth that squats didnt give him as good leg development as hack squats and leg press did.

http://mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/lifestyles/2010-md-spring-seminar/2662-gaspari-nutrition-presents-the-md-seminar-dorian-yates-leg-training.html

now i know that lots of people swear by squats and say that their huge legs came from squats (including king coleman), but i think this video offers a valid alternative

i personally have found that squats didnt cause my legs to grow as much as leg presses and hack squats have....maybe its because im not doing them right...who knows.

but i thought i would post this video as it is offers an interesting line of thought....

There are always going to be different ways to do things based on that persons individual factors, however IMO the aspects of what a professional bodybuilder does to make themselves competitive at that level are not applicable to average enthusiast. We can learn great things about spirit and dedication, but emulating Dorian's quad routine during his Olympia years isn't going to make anyone's legs look like his, with the exception of Dorian himself.
With that being said, for quad development, the leg press and hack squats are a great replacement for regular back squats, but for overall development I believe nothing beats regular ol freebar back squats, for most people.

Tempus
02-09-10, 6:21 pm
Leg press does wonders for my quads. Squats never seem to measure up for me.

Solution: so I try to do both unless I'm going low reps, in which case I alternate every week.


The key is finding what works for you. There is no bible for your body - take advice and find your own answers.

IronWilson
02-09-10, 6:29 pm
Squats won't give you bigger arms....

Thats all I know for fact.

intoodeep25
02-09-10, 7:04 pm
Squats won't give you bigger arms....

Thats all I know for fact.

thats debatable...

J Wong
02-09-10, 7:41 pm
Squats won't give you bigger arms....

Thats all I know for fact.

I tend to agree. If that were the case, I think my arms would be over 16 inches.

Fury317
02-09-10, 7:47 pm
All 3 move in a similar plane. Don't think that any "one" of them are the best so do them all, no controversy here. Personally I do feel hack squats will damage your knees before the others though. Hacks hurt my knees more than the rest anytime I do them.

Training builds muscle but I could be wrong about that.

Personal fav still = squats

I agree with this 99.9% except......training doesnt build muscle, FOOD BUILDS MUSCLE haha

But yeah, squat are EXCELLENT, but if it doesnt work for you, dont force it. Use what feels right. Learn your body. We're not all the same. Leg length, bone structure, etc all play a part in if a particular exercise will be most beneficial to hypertrophy or strength.

PrinceCook
02-09-10, 9:31 pm
well for 3 weeks straight, i only did squats (smolov base mesocycle). I dropped about 7 lbs, and put 2.5 inches on my legs.

So you know what i prefer for legs.

amen brother.

PrinceCook
02-09-10, 9:32 pm
I agree with this 99.9% except......training doesnt build muscle, FOOD BUILDS MUSCLE haha

But yeah, squat are EXCELLENT, but if it doesnt work for you, dont force it. Use what feels right. Learn your body. We're not all the same. Leg length, bone structure, etc all play a part in if a particular exercise will be most beneficial to hypertrophy or strength.

Nervous System, Right Nutrients at the right time builds muscle.

ironshaolin
02-09-10, 11:44 pm
Its all about LEVERAGES. People with long femurs and long torso's definately do NOT seem to grow well from squats. The distance they have to travel from top to bottom, coupled with their long torso being likely to topple forward makes it difficult to squat effectively, and benefit from it. Long limbed people tend to grow well from single leg work like bulgarian split squats, step ups, lunges, etc....

It has nothing to do with leg press is better, or squat is better, or whatever. Its all about what you're body is built to do. Thats why people with long arms have a tough time developing chest with bench presses, but some short torso, short limbed people will swear by it. You gotta do whats best for your body type. For MOST people, legs definately seem to get bigger doing higher rep stuff.

ironshaolin
02-09-10, 11:47 pm
Squats won't give you bigger arms....

Thats all I know for fact.

The excersise itself may not stimulate your arms, however, heavy compound movements utilizing the hips and thighs tend to release greater amounts of testosterone in the body. So squats can cause the hormonal release in your body to give you bigger arms.

Bodybuilder Troy Alves stated once that he was trying to get his arms to grow, and they wouldn't budge. Everything he tried, nothing worked. Finally he quit everything except maybe a few sets of curls here and there and focused on making his legs stronger, and his arms finally grew. Interesting, eh?

theharjmann
02-10-10, 4:33 am
let me ask a question; do a lot of you guys notice that you put more mass on your ass than your legs when you squat, especially when you start your leg workout with squats?

i know a lot of people will think my question is stupid, but im talking merely from a bodybuilding perspective not necessarily a powerlifting perspective....to make the muscles grow in a symmetrical and proportioned manner, not to just build a huge frame.

Thing is, I know that squats are the ultimate overall mass builder and I still do them at the end of a leg workout and really try to focus on the squeeze on the quads, but I honestly think that FOR ME, starting with squats and going super heavy on them makes my ass grow but not my legs....

I know the overall message is that we should all find out what works for US, but im just interested in getting some discussion going and seeing things from others' lines of thought....

NaturalTrainee
02-10-10, 6:51 am
I don't know the exact steroid cycles Dorian and Ronnie so I can't take into account the most important factor. They had different training approaches, one used HIT and the other high volume. Because of the differences in human anatomy and genetics you can't really compare them, it's like comparing apples with oranges. Other than that, legs USUALLY respond well to higher rep ranges, so try increasing your reps. If you have issues with squats stressing other muscle groups try doing them with a thin object under your heels or don't go below parallel since this is the point your @ss is stressed the most.

shizz702
02-10-10, 8:14 am
Dorian did what worked for him.

He also discredited the omnipotent flat bench and found that inclines I believe, worked better for him.

Nothing is written in stone, we are all free to do as we please, and I believe the art of bodybuilding is finding what your body responds too. If squats don't work you, no need to do them. Personally though, squats have worked well for me.

theharjmann
02-10-10, 9:18 am
I don't know the exact steroid cycles Dorian and Ronnie so I can't take into account the most important factor. They had different training approaches, one used HIT and the other high volume. Because of the differences in human anatomy and genetics you can't really compare them, it's like comparing apples with oranges. Other than that, legs USUALLY respond well to higher rep ranges, so try increasing your reps. If you have issues with squats stressing other muscle groups try doing them with a thin object under your heels or don't go below parallel since this is the point your @ss is stressed the most.

im pretty sure that steroid cycles arent the most important factor...training, mental focus and diet are in my opinion.

thing with shallow squats is that i will hardly focus on my tear drop....ive found that leg presses and hacks work well for me anyway...just trying to share the fact that squats dont necessarily work for everyone (even though they work for the majority) and that there is a healthy alternative.


Dorian did what worked for him.

He also discredited the omnipotent flat bench and found that inclines I believe, worked better for him.

Nothing is written in stone, we are all free to do as we please, and I believe the art of bodybuilding is finding what your body responds too. If squats don't work you, no need to do them. Personally though, squats have worked well for me.

he discredited the flat bench because he believed it didnt result in ultimate pec development as much as shallow declines and inclines did....and his reasoning behind it seems to make sense. personally i dont feel as sore the next day after i bench press as opposed to inclines, declines etc.

But as you said, each to their own.....Franco Columbu, Ronnie and Arnold had/have some of the best chests ive ever seen and they swore by the flat bench....

Like i said earlier....just trying to get some thoughts flying around that could ultimately help people who read this thread bust out of plateaus etc.

NaturalTrainee
02-10-10, 12:34 pm
im pretty sure that steroid cycles arent the most important factor...training, mental focus and diet are in my opinion.


This is just sooooooo debetable. In the pro world, they aren't.

GJN5002
02-10-10, 11:43 pm
I think dorian yates could have done nothing but leg extentions and probably had huge legs. Some people respnd to squats well some dont, its going to depends on a ton of different factors.

theharjmann
02-11-10, 10:12 am
I think dorian yates could have done nothing but leg extentions and probably had huge legs. Some people respnd to squats well some dont, its going to depends on a ton of different factors.

No offence but thats bullshit.

fenix237
02-11-10, 11:16 am
i prefer to do ATG squats, but i lift to get stronger not for maximum hypertrophy. both my thighs and ass get noticeably bigger. standard BB squats work the hips/groin muscles (don't know the name of those muscles) big time, especially out of the hole. if max thigh development is your goal, i hear/read adding front squats are very effective- never did them though.


regarding whether squats make your arms grow- it seems that it's debatable whether deep squats/deads boost yout natural test, although i like to believe it's true lol!. i believe that squats/deads put on mass better than any other exercises, and when you increase bodyweight, your arms will grow as the body prefers to keep itself in proportion- add in direct arm work and your arms should grow- the body works best as a system- "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts"

NaturalTrainee
02-11-10, 11:34 am
regarding whether squats make your arms grow- it seems that it's debatable whether deep squats/deads boost yout natural test, although i like to believe it's true lol!. i believe that squats/deads put on mass better than any other exercises, and when you increase bodyweight, your arms will grow as the body prefers to keep itself in proportion- add in direct arm work and your arms should grow- the body works best as a system- "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts"

Wise words my man. Just read this:

Squats, Randall Strossen, Ph.D., says the following about the
20-Rep Squat regimen:
“Men who had been unable to register significant gains
with other routines were suddenly gaining 20 pounds of muscle
in a month or two.”
Strossen himself claims to have gained 30 pounds of
muscle in six weeks on such a program, and he’s a relatively
small-boned man.

IronWilson
02-11-10, 11:49 am
Wise words my man. Just read this:

Squats, Randall Strossen, Ph.D., says the following about the
20-Rep Squat regimen:
“Men who had been unable to register significant gains
with other routines were suddenly gaining 20 pounds of muscle
in a month or two.”
Strossen himself claims to have gained 30 pounds of
muscle in six weeks on such a program, and he’s a relatively
small-boned man.

lol this is why I said what I said about squats not making your arms grow.

fenix237
02-11-10, 12:25 pm
lol this is why I said what I said about squats not making your arms grow.

hey Iron- i'm confused with what your saying. If this guy put on 30lbs of muscle from high rep squats, you don't think that his arms benefited, even a little? i read something a ways back that said something like "for every 15lbs of LBM you add, you will add 1" on your arms" getting back to the body proportion theory

i'm just trying to understand your position, not to argue... haha!!!

IronWilson
02-11-10, 1:16 pm
hey Iron- i'm confused with what your saying. If this guy put on 30lbs of muscle from high rep squats, you don't think that his arms benefited, even a little? i read something a ways back that said something like "for every 15lbs of LBM you add, you will add 1" on your arms" getting back to the body proportion theory

i'm just trying to understand your position, not to argue... haha!!!

You are correct. I don't think his arms would have gained any size. Without any stimulation, how can a muscle grow?

I did a similar regimen recently when my arm was injured. I did high reps of squats because they are a great exercise for many parts of the body (not including the arms). I did not train arms.

What happened? My arms got smaller. Your body is designed to survive. If you don't stimulate the muscles in your arms, the human body will see that the muscles in your arms are not needed.

In addition to a regular exercise regimen (including arm training) squats can make your arms grow. But by themselves, they simply cannot.

fenix237
02-11-10, 2:03 pm
You are correct. I don't think his arms would have gained any size. Without any stimulation, how can a muscle grow?

I did a similar regimen recently when my arm was injured. I did high reps of squats because they are a great exercise for many parts of the body (not including the arms). I did not train arms.

What happened? My arms got smaller. Your body is designed to survive. If you don't stimulate the muscles in your arms, the human body will see that the muscles in your arms are not needed.

In addition to a regular exercise regimen (including arm training) squats can make your arms grow. But by themselves, they simply cannot.

okay- thanks for the explanation IW- we at least agree in some ways and we'll have to agree to disagree in others. i'm certainly not an authority on the subject lol!!!

but in the end, i think we are on the same page as i would never say "drop all your arm work and do squats only" and you're not saying "squats do not benefit anything but your legs"

fenix237
02-11-10, 2:04 pm
btw- thans for the controversy Harjmann! hehe!!!

NaturalTrainee
02-11-10, 2:17 pm
Direct work is needed, but squats performed this way is called and anabolic accelerator.

danlerno
02-11-10, 2:49 pm
Dorian is all about feeling the muscle work and isolating it. He states over and over again throughout those videos, that for him leg press and hack squat worked better because he could isolate his quads and really focus on working just the quad. He said that he did squat early on in his career which I'm obviously helped him build a solid base. I think it's safe to say that there are very few of us on here that are past the point of building a solid base. Same holds true for dorians training style where he does 2 warm up sets and 1 working sets. He states that is an advanced program and a less developed person would benefit from a few more sets.

If you go back and watch the video from the diamond gym muscle camp with Kai going over squat technique, he breaks down the squat based on which muscle are used at each point in the movement. Glutes and hams off the floor and quads only kick in towards the top. For me, its hard to separate the muscle feel the way Kai does. Squats are by far the best exercise to target the entire lower half but if your trying to demolish just your quads Dorian's methods do make sense

N. Motta
02-11-10, 2:55 pm
Here here, I always enjoy a little rabble rabble.

My .02 cents, *in as narrow minded view as possible. With all due respect of course.

"If you don't squat, your a pussy..." forgot who said it.

I enjoy squatting, and have been enjoying steady gains with it over the past two years. I know for a fact, that my body personally, rewards me for squatting heavy and intensely. Plus what is more badass than seeing Ox and Poundstone, recently squatting some heavy fuckin iron together?

...Although, Kuclo's video of a brutal multi drop set on a hack machine was pretty fucking sick too.