Soke Price Seminar

[Legacy]

Soke Bill Price will be in the southern part South Carolina in June, I am not sure of the date, but it is a probably mid-June. The seminar will be from 9 am - 5 pm. For those of you who are truly into martial arts (not commercialized MMA) you should know who Soke Price is. Along with him will be Sifu McElroy. Both have trained with Dan Inosanto (who trained under Bruce Lee) and Francis Fong, who are the fastest and most deadliest martial artists in the world without question. If any one is interested, send me a PM and I will get you more information and a registration form for the seminar.

[Girevik 69]

Soke Bill Price will be in the southern part South Carolina in June, I am not sure of the date, but it is a probably mid-June. The seminar will be from 9 am - 5 pm. For those of you who are truly into martial arts (not commercialized MMA) you should know who Soke Price is.


Just because MMA is currently very popular, it does not mean that MMA is not a "true" martial art (whatever that means).

The Ancient Greek pankration was a state-sponsored Olympic event--and it was certainly the pinnacle of unarmed combat. Today's MMA is the modern equivalent of pankration.



Along with him will be Sifu McElroy. Both have trained with Dan Inosanto (who trained under Bruce Lee) and Francis Fong, who are the fastest and most deadliest martial artists in the world without question.

So let me get this straight--you're saying that Dan Inosanto and Francis Fong are "the fastest and most deadliest martial artists in the world without question"? What exactly are you basing this claim on?

[Legacy]

Just because MMA is currently very popular, it does not mean that MMA is not a "true" martial art (whatever that means).

The Ancient Greek pankration was a state-sponsored Olympic event--and it was certainly the pinnacle of unarmed combat. Today's MMA is the modern equivalent of pankration.




So let me get this straight--you're saying that Dan Inosanto and Francis Fong are "the fastest and most deadliest martial artists in the world without question"? What exactly are you basing this claim on?

Todays popularity of MMA aka UFC which is commercialized is not the same as traditional martial arts. There is not as much respect for the arts anymore. Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of guys that do respect the art, however there are many more that do not. Its like everyone and their brother is suddenly an MMA fighter because UFC got popular, and they train just do that. What I am saying is go to places that train specifically for UFC and go to other hole-in-wall places that train for their specific art. You will notice that there is a lot more respect for the art itself and for the Sifu and Masters that teach it. Nowadays if you enroll your kid into some martial arts class, they will guarantee him a black belt over the course of his enrollment (which is a good business idea because the longer the parents sign up for the more money the school makes), but he might not physically be at that level. Basically what I am saying is the respect for martial arts has dropped now because of the commercialization of UFC, however like I said previously, its a select group that has lost the respect but there are plenty of others out there who still have that type of respect; its just few and far between; guys like BJ Penn, pure respect.

And for your second point, yes that is exactly what I am saying, Dan Inosanto and Francis Fong are some of the fastest and deadliest martial artists in the world. Although they are getting old, the speed and power if unbelievable. I am basing that off of experience of seeing them, being trained by one of Dan Inosanto's former students, and seeing everything he has done. Francis Fong also trained under Inosanto. In case you don't know who Inosanto is, he was 1 of 3 people allowed to train under Bruce Lee and also allowed to teach Bruce Lee's Martial Arts System. And on top of that, he was the only one that was given instructorship of the third level of Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee. He also trains the special forces, green berets, and secret service.

And if you don't wanna take my word for it, he does seminars every year, all you gotta do is sign up and go to participate and you will understand the point I am making.

[Beowulf]

Just because MMA is currently very popular, it does not mean that MMA is not a "true" martial art (whatever that means).

The Ancient Greek pankration was a state-sponsored Olympic event--and it was certainly the pinnacle of unarmed combat. Today's MMA is the modern equivalent of pankration.


I agree. Pancrase is not for the faint of hearth.

[Beowulf]

Todays popularity of MMA aka UFC which is commercialized is not the same as traditional martial arts. There is not as much respect for the arts anymore. Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of guys that do respect the art, however there are many more that do not. Its like everyone and their brother is suddenly an MMA fighter because UFC got popular, and they train just do that. What I am saying is go to places that train specifically for UFC and go to other hole-in-wall places that train for their specific art. You will notice that there is a lot more respect for the art itself and for the Sifu and Masters that teach it. Nowadays if you enroll your kid into some martial arts class, they will guarantee him a black belt over the course of his enrollment (which is a good business idea because the longer the parents sign up for the more money the school makes), but he might not physically be at that level. Basically what I am saying is the respect for martial arts has dropped now because of the commercialization of UFC, however like I said previously, its a select group that has lost the respect but there are plenty of others out there who still have that type of respect; its just few and far between; guys like BJ Penn, pure respect.

And for your second point, yes that is exactly what I am saying, Dan Inosanto and Francis Fong are some of the fastest and deadliest martial artists in the world. Although they are getting old, the speed and power if unbelievable. I am basing that off of experience of seeing them, being trained by one of Dan Inosanto's former students, and seeing everything he has done. Francis Fong also trained under Inosanto. In case you don't know who Inosanto is, he was 1 of 3 people allowed to train under Bruce Lee and also allowed to teach Bruce Lee's Martial Arts System. And on top of that, he was the only one that was given instructorship of the third level of Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee. He also trains the special forces, green berets, and secret service.

And if you don't wanna take my word for it, he does seminars every year, all you gotta do is sign up and go to participate and you will understand the point I am making.

You're painting with very, very broad brushstrokes here. And in many different colors, lol.

[NJC_Manhattan]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does 'real' material arts mean?

[Legacy]

Ill try and make this more simple Girevik lol, I know what Im saying in my head, its just hard to put it down. Referring to the term "true martial arts".

Obviously there is nothing wrong doing what you do because thats the way you want to do it, which is why we all train differently, we each have our own reasons. The point I was trying to make was that martial arts is becoming an industry, which is taking away from the pure and values of the arts. We live in a country to cater to peoples needs as a business instead of maintaining the true nature of it. For example, look at all the hardcore gyms that are evaporating because of these commercial spa type fitness centers that customers want in a gym (unfortunately). The hardcore places are dwindling because the "select group" of guys that wanna train hardcore (like all us animal brothers) and keep the weight lifting pure is few and far between. I guess from my martial arts experience, I was always taught discipline, doing what hurts to learning to like it, no nonsense, no bullshit, no complaining, and given a rationale behind the art to better understand why we use it, what its for, and why its important. Training in a dojo that is just simple but now in modern times is covered with awards, belts, trophies, and color and wearing traditional gi uniforms that connect with the martial arts culture instead of colorful shorts. Basically it seems that the newer martial arts is becoming a way to get quick results instead of dedication and hard work for many many years. I hope this clears it up a little more about what I meant about "true martial arts", this is how I view it in my head and tried to write it out for ya

[Beowulf]

Ill try and make this more simple Girevik lol, I know what Im saying in my head, its just hard to put it down. Referring to the term "true martial arts".

Obviously there is nothing wrong doing what you do because thats the way you want to do it, which is why we all train differently, we each have our own reasons. The point I was trying to make was that martial arts is becoming an industry, which is taking away from the pure and values of the arts. We live in a country to cater to peoples needs as a business instead of maintaining the true nature of it. For example, look at all the hardcore gyms that are evaporating because of these commercial spa type fitness centers that customers want in a gym (unfortunately). The hardcore places are dwindling because the "select group" of guys that wanna train hardcore (like all us animal brothers) and keep the weight lifting pure is few and far between. I guess from my martial arts experience, I was always taught discipline, doing what hurts to learning to like it, no nonsense, no bullshit, no complaining, and given a rationale behind the art to better understand why we use it, what its for, and why its important. Training in a dojo that is just simple but now in modern times is covered with awards, belts, trophies, and color and wearing traditional gi uniforms that connect with the martial arts culture instead of colorful shorts. Basically it seems that the newer martial arts is becoming a way to get quick results instead of dedication and hard work for many many years. I hope this clears it up a little more about what I meant about "true martial arts", this is how I view it in my head and tried to write it out for ya

The "true nature" of the martial arts? Perhaps it could be argued that once it left the shores of China, Japan, Korea, Thailand and other Asian nations, and migrated to the U.S., it lost that "true nature". You could argue it's like Chinese food. There's Chinese food in the U.S. that caters to the American palate and then there's real Chinese food in China. Regardless, by conservative accounts, martial arts schools generate several hundreds of millions of dollars per year in revenue. It's not "becoming" anything. It is an industry and a large one at that. It sounds like your argument is about West vs. East-based martial arts methods.

[Girevik 69]

Legacy,



Todays popularity of MMA aka UFC which is commercialized is not the same as traditional martial arts.


Indeed, they are two different beasts.



There is not as much respect for the arts anymore. Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of guys that do respect the art, however there are many more that do not. Its like everyone and their brother is suddenly an MMA fighter because UFC got popular, and they train just do that. What I am saying is go to places that train specifically for UFC and go to other hole-in-wall places that train for their specific art. You will notice that there is a lot more respect for the art itself and for the Sifu and Masters that teach it.


I must disagree.

MMA gyms are similar to boxing gyms or old-school catch wrestling gyms--i.e., the combat athletes are simply there to train in their respective arts, and so the classes are not surrounded with the typical trappings we associate with "traditional" Asian martial arts, like bowing to the sensei, etc. It doesn't mean that there's any lack of "respect" for the art or the teachers--on the contrary, given that combat sports like MMA are based on competition against fully resisting opponents, the respect is very much there.



Nowadays if you enroll your kid into some martial arts class, they will guarantee him a black belt over the course of his enrollment (which is a good business idea because the longer the parents sign up for the more money the school makes), but he might not physically be at that level. Basically what I am saying is the respect for martial arts has dropped now because of the commercialization of UFC, however like I said previously, its a select group that has lost the respect but there are plenty of others out there who still have that type of respect; its just few and far between; guys like BJ Penn, pure respect.

I'm sensing multiple ironies in what you posted above, bro. First off, the "belt factories" you describe above have nothing to do with MMA; they are a product predominantly of Tae Kwon Do "McDojos", and TKD is a traditional martial art. Thus, it can certainly be argued that a traditional martial art has been the catalyst for the functional dilution of today's martial arts. The 10-year-old "black belts" that are so common today are hard evidence for that.

Also ironic is that you mention BJ Penn as an example of "respect"; Penn is an amazingly talented fighter and a truly gifted athlete, but he certainly has no qualms about talking smack about his opponents.



Ill try and make this more simple Girevik lol, I know what Im saying in my head, its just hard to put it down. Referring to the term "true martial arts".

Obviously there is nothing wrong doing what you do because thats the way you want to do it, which is why we all train differently, we each have our own reasons. The point I was trying to make was that martial arts is becoming an industry, which is taking away from the pure and values of the arts. We live in a country to cater to peoples needs as a business instead of maintaining the true nature of it.


I agree, but martial arts were an "industry" LONG before the advent of modern MMA, as I pointed out above, with the "McDojo" phenomenon.



For example, look at all the hardcore gyms that are evaporating because of these commercial spa type fitness centers that customers want in a gym (unfortunately). The hardcore places are dwindling because the "select group" of guys that wanna train hardcore (like all us animal brothers) and keep the weight lifting pure is few and far between. I guess from my martial arts experience, I was always taught discipline, doing what hurts to learning to like it, no nonsense, no bullshit, no complaining, and given a rationale behind the art to better understand why we use it, what its for, and why its important.


Everything you mentioned above that I underlined applies to MMA. MMA is all about "no nonsense, no bullshit, no complaining" et al. It's about functionality.



Training in a dojo that is just simple but now in modern times is covered with awards, belts, trophies, and color and wearing traditional gi uniforms that connect with the martial arts culture instead of colorful shorts. Basically it seems that the newer martial arts is becoming a way to get quick results instead of dedication and hard work for many many years. I hope this clears it up a little more about what I meant about "true martial arts", this is how I view it in my head and tried to write it out for ya


MMA has nothing to do with "quick results". It's a gruelling method that requires competence in multiple disciplines, just like the Greek pankration or Roman pancratium of Ancient times. If anything, we can see how many of the traditional arts have led to the functional dilution of martial arts in general, with the emphasis on kata rather than sparring, the obsession with producing child "black belts" for monetary purposes, and so on. The traditional bias against cross-training in other arts is yet another example on how modern traditional martial arts have hurt the arts overall, in terms of functionality.



And for your second point, yes that is exactly what I am saying, Dan Inosanto and Francis Fong are some of the fastest and deadliest martial artists in the world. Although they are getting old, the speed and power if unbelievable. I am basing that off of experience of seeing them, being trained by one of Dan Inosanto's former students, and seeing everything he has done. Francis Fong also trained under Inosanto. In case you don't know who Inosanto is, he was 1 of 3 people allowed to train under Bruce Lee and also allowed to teach Bruce Lee's Martial Arts System. And on top of that, he was the only one that was given instructorship of the third level of Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee. He also trains the special forces, green berets, and secret service.

And if you don't wanna take my word for it, he does seminars every year, all you gotta do is sign up and go to participate and you will understand the point I am making.


I know who Dan Inosanto and Francis Fong are. My own MA teacher trained under Inosanto for a time, in Filipino martial arts (FMA). I totally respect those guys, but to make the claim that they are the "fastest and... deadliest martial artists in the world without question" has absolutely no basis in fact. The same goes for the late Bruce Lee, for that matter. Lee was certainly ahead of his time, and he certainly had skills, but his refusal to compete against his peers will always leave a huge question mark, in terms of what he could actually do, as a fighter. When Lee, Inosanto, and Fong were teaching in the 1960s, there were plenty of tough-as-nails fighters out there--folks like legendary champion judoka Masahiko Kimura (who broke Helio Gracie's arm in 1951), catch wrestlers Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson (both veterans of the infamous Billy Riley "Snake Pit" gym in Wigan, England), judoka/catch wrestler Gene LeBell, Dutch judoka/karateka Jon Bluming, Dutch judoka Anton Geesink, Shotokan karate champ Frank Smith, and boxer Mohammed Ali, among others.

And I'm sensing yet more irony here, because Lee and his followers were/are not traditionalists! Lee was totally AGAINST the traditional approach to martial arts. He was an advocate of martial arts cross-training (as we see today in MMA), at a time when it was not a popular thing to do. When Bruce Lee was teaching, standup striking arts like karate and kung-fu were all the rage, but Lee took the time to study grappling methods, under folks like "Judo" Gene LeBell. One can see various throws, takedowns, and submission holds taken from both judo and catch wrestling, in Lee's notes on combat, which were posthumously published as the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. One of Lee's proteges, the late Larry Hartsell, was also very big on the old-time catch wrestlers, and thus he prefigured the rise in popularity of the grappling arts that later happened, with the advent of modern MMA. Dan Inosanto also pursued the grappling arts, by first incorporating Japanese shootwrestling into his Jeet Kune Do, and then added Machado jiu-jitsu, when he had the opportunity.


Peace,

G69

[Beowulf]

Legacy,





Indeed, they are two different beasts.





I must disagree.

MMA gyms are similar to boxing gyms or old-school catch wrestling gyms--i.e., the combat athletes are simply there to train in their respective arts, and so the classes are not surrounded with the typical trappings we associate with "traditional" Asian martial arts, like bowing to the sensei, etc. It doesn't mean that there's any lack of "respect" for the art or the teachers--on the contrary, given that combat sports like MMA are based on competition against fully resisting opponents, the respect is very much there.




I'm sensing multiple ironies in what you posted above, bro. First off, the "belt factories" you describe above have nothing to do with MMA; they are a product predominantly of Tae Kwon Do "McDojos", and TKD is a traditional martial art. Thus, it can certainly be argued that a traditional martial art has been the catalyst for the functional dilution of today's martial arts. The 10-year-old "black belts" that are so common today are hard evidence for that.

Also ironic is that you mention BJ Penn as an example of "respect"; Penn is an amazingly talented fighter and a truly gifted athlete, but he certainly has no qualms about talking smack about his opponents.





I agree, but martial arts were an "industry" LONG before the advent of modern MMA, as I pointed out above, with the "McDojo" phenomenon.





Everything you mentioned above that I underlined applies to MMA. MMA is all about "no nonsense, no bullshit, no complaining" et al. It's about functionality.





MMA has nothing to do with "quick results". It's a gruelling method that requires competence in multiple disciplines, just like the Greek pankration or Roman pancratium of Ancient times. If anything, we can see how many of the traditional arts have led to the functional dilution of martial arts in general, with the emphasis on kata rather than sparring, the obsession with producing child "black belts" for monetary purposes, and so on. The traditional bias against cross-training in other arts is yet another example on how modern traditional martial arts have hurt the arts overall, in terms of functionality.





I know who Dan Inosanto and Francis Fong are. My own MA teacher trained under Inosanto for a time, in Filipino martial arts (FMA). I totally respect those guys, but to make the claim that they are the "fastest and... deadliest martial artists in the world without question" has absolutely no basis in fact. The same goes for the late Bruce Lee, for that matter. Lee was certainly ahead of his time, and he certainly had skills, but his refusal to compete against his peers will always leave a huge question mark, in terms of what he could actually do, as a fighter. When Lee, Inosanto, and Fong were teaching in the 1960s, there were plenty of tough-as-nails fighters out there--folks like legendary champion judoka Masahiko Kimura (who broke Helio Gracie's arm in 1951), catch wrestlers Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson (both veterans of the infamous Billy Riley "Snake Pit" gym in Wigan, England), judoka/catch wrestler Gene LeBell, Dutch judoka/karateka Jon Bluming, Dutch judoka Anton Geesink, Shotokan karate champ Frank Smith, and boxer Mohammed Ali, among others.

And I'm sensing yet more irony here, because Lee and his followers were/are not traditionalists! Lee was totally AGAINST the traditional approach to martial arts. He was an advocate of martial arts cross-training (as we see today in MMA), at a time when it was not a popular thing to do. When Bruce Lee was teaching, standup striking arts like karate and kung-fu were all the rage, but Lee took the time to study grappling methods, under folks like "Judo" Gene LeBell. One can see various throws, takedowns, and submission holds taken from both judo and catch wrestling, in Lee's notes on combat, which were posthumously published as the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. One of Lee's proteges, the late Larry Hartsell, was also very big on the old-time catch wrestlers, and thus he prefigured the rise in popularity of the grappling arts that later happened, with the advent of modern MMA. Dan Inosanto also pursued the grappling arts, by first incorporating Japanese shootwrestling into his Jeet Kune Do, and then added Machado jiu-jitsu, when he had the opportunity.


Peace,

G69

You've made some great points here G69.

[Girevik 69]

You've made some great points here G69.


Thanks, bro. You raised some extremely pertinent points as well, regarding martial arts as an industry, and the East vs. West deal.

[Beowulf]

Thanks, bro. You raised some extremely pertinent points as well, regarding martial arts as an industry, and the East vs. West deal.

I don't believe there are pure martials arts today, like what I believe Legacy is alluding to--a unfiltered, undiluted path to Karate, Kung Fu, Judo, Jii-Jitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, whatever. Especially not here in the U.S. As social practices, each has been influenced by the larger martial arts community and by the history of martial arts. If anything, phenomena like the UFC and MMA (what you refer to as "cross-training") has really brought this idea to the masses. And the whole Bruce Lee was the best fighter ever debate, I'm so over that, lol. I have nothing but respect for what he accomplished and what he attempted to do in re-defining what martial arts was. In fact, watching Bruce Lee movies as a kid is what started my interest in martial arts. Still, martial arts doesn't start and end with him.

[Beowulf]

For anyone interested in an article: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/28/business/the-martial-arts-as-moneymakers.html

[Legacy]

You both make some valid points as well and I appreciate the fact that you have a passion for the martial arts. I'll take your points in stride and reanalyze my thoughts, I am always open to having an open mind. I will however maintain my statement that I believe Inosanto is one of the deadliest martial artists from everything I have seen from him and my Sifu. Good points bros.

On the other hand, if ya'll are around SC mid June, come participate in the Price seminar.

[Girevik 69]

I don't believe there are pure martials arts today, like what I believe Legacy is alluding to--a unfiltered, undiluted path to Karate, Kung Fu, Judo, Jii-Jitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, whatever. Especially not here in the U.S. As social practices, each has been influenced by the larger martial arts community and by the history of martial arts. If anything, phenomena like the UFC and MMA (what you refer to as "cross-training") has really brought this idea to the masses.


Indeed, martial arts tend to constantly change over time, both within their own culture, and often even more so, when brought over to another culture. All sorts of factors--both combative and non-combative--can have a huge impact on martial arts. Just look at how much judo changed, in less than a century--from c. 1900 to 1925, judo emphasized the complex ne-waza (groundwork) that we typically associate with Brazilian jiu-jitsu today, but changes in the rules shifted the emphasis to the standing technique, with throws and takedowns. And that's just one of many, many examples.

Emphasis on particular skillsets also appears to come and go (and come again) in cycles. For example, we see the rise in popularity of mixed martial arts (MMA), which attempts to cover all the aspects of unarmed combat--eg., standup striking (boxing & kickboxing), clinchwork (from both the pugilistic and grappling perspectives), throws and takedowns, ground control, postitional strategy on the ground, submission holds (chokes, jointlocks, & cranks), striking on the ground (G n' P, etc), and so on. The evolution of the UFC and similar competitions from a "Style vs Style" no-holds-barred (NHB) format, to a true MMA format (where all of the competitors have some competence in all areas of unarmed fighting) since the early 1990s strikes many observers today as something novel, something totally new--but it obviously isn't, given that the Ancient Greeks and Romans had similar, state-sponsored competitions, thousands of years ago. And you really have to wonder what the skill level of those Ancient pankratiasts was like--typically, when you have state-sponsored competition of that sort, the talent level is very high, and the talent pool is very large.


But I digress...



And the whole Bruce Lee was the best fighter ever debate, I'm so over that, lol. I have nothing but respect for what he accomplished and what he attempted to do in re-defining what martial arts was. In fact, watching Bruce Lee movies as a kid is what started my interest in martial arts. Still, martial arts doesn't start and end with him.

Exactly. He was a visionary, and a pioneer of martial arts cross-training at a time when it was far from the norm. I give Lee all the credit in the world for his contribution to the arts (and for his open-mindedness towards non-Asian systems, as evidenced by the strong influence of Western boxing and fencing on his Jeet Kune Do), but he is neither the first nor the last word on fighting.

[Girevik 69]

For anyone interested in an article: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/28/business/the-martial-arts-as-moneymakers.html

A very revealing article... especially considering it was written over 20 years ago.

[Girevik 69]

You both make some valid points as well and I appreciate the fact that you have a passion for the martial arts. I'll take your points in stride and reanalyze my thoughts, I am always open to having an open mind. I will however maintain my statement that I believe Inosanto is one of the deadliest martial artists from everything I have seen from him and my Sifu. Good points bros.

On the other hand, if ya'll are around SC mid June, come participate in the Price seminar.


Legacy, don't get me wrong. Inosanto is certainly a badass, but I am always very cautious about designating superlatives in the arts, given that there are really a lot of talented fighters out there. The history of martial arts and combat sports is full not only of legendary fighters who dominated their chosen disciplines, but also of the upstarts who came out of nowhere, and dethroned the champions.

And I didn't mean to jack your thread. I simply took note of some of the things you stated, and I wanted to address some issues. The seminar sounds like it will be great.