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_Trainlikeafreak
06-09-10, 12:34 pm
Sup fellow animals, its been awhile. I've been dieting my ass off and training harder than ever for my first show in July for teens. Anyway the one thing I've had the most trouble with was calves. After trying numerous experiments I finally found out a key part in the small but nevertheless steady growth in my calves over the past month. The trick is to hold the position at the top of whatever exercise one is doing for 5 seconds. Then slowly return all the way down to the starting position and hold that for 5 seconds. This puts constant stress on the muscle instead of pushing your calves up and down quickly which mainly puts pressure on your tendons. The guy that gave me this tip is in his 50's and looks insane. Trust me, this will work for anyone if it worked for me.

Aggression
06-09-10, 12:41 pm
niCe tip, brother. Represent Jersey to the fullest!

Here's an article that mentions your exact strategy, yet goes a little more into detail:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-the-calves.html

My boy Bondons posted this up on his BB.com thread and I tried it out.

PIJW
06-09-10, 12:50 pm
awesome tip, i love calf training cause of the definition you can see in them while holding in the weight in the upper portion of the movement.

LegendKillerJosh
06-09-10, 12:56 pm
This is what I do - 3 seconds up, 3 seconds holding, 3 seconds lowering, heaviest weights possible for sets in the 2-6 rep range. It's the only way my calves grow. Volume is a bad idea for calves, they are already use to it.

Mindaugas
06-09-10, 4:04 pm
I think people over complicate the calves... it's just like any other muscle it's not magical and it needs no special treatment.... the only difference is that it's the only muscle that is at a mechanical advantage in your body and can move insane amounts of weight.... so train it like you would any other muscle for hypertrophy in the 6-12 rep range, 2-3 exercises, 3-4 sets,, 2 times a week and if you are eating a surplus of calories your calves will grow... don't expect your calves to grow if you're not gaining weight.

Also focus on straight leg calf raises as it will focus on the Gastroc muscle which is the largest calve muscle... when you do seated where your knees are bent soleus will be the main muscle worked which is flat and won't give you that much size... so my suggestion is something like this:

Leg Press Calve Raises: 4 sets - 6-12 reps
Donkey or standing calve raises: 3-4 sets 6-12 reps
Seated Calve Raises 3 sets - 6-12 reps

Do this at same tempo as you would any other muscle without yanking the weight like most ppl at the gym with their pencils x2 a week eat surplus of calories and you will grow.

_Trainlikeafreak
06-09-10, 4:13 pm
Calves are stubborn as are traps. They respond better to high intensity training. They need more attention because of this. Unless you have genetics on your side and were born with horse legs, you have to keep doing them or else you lose them. I've seen the results in my traps and calves because of this. Stubborn muscles need more squeeze, pause, and release down just before resting position, hold it, then back up. I saw Rodney train traps on a video and he uses light weight and holds it then goes a few inches down. My traps exploded. Then after the tip I got for calves I put two and two together and boom, results...

Mindaugas
06-09-10, 4:21 pm
Looking how pro bodybuilders train and trying to apply it to us mortals is kinda silly...

_Trainlikeafreak
06-09-10, 4:41 pm
niCe tip, brother. Represent Jersey to the fullest!

Here's an article that mentions your exact strategy, yet goes a little more into detail:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-the-calves.html

Yeah that article is great... Jersey til I die baby

Legacy
06-09-10, 6:44 pm
Im a big fan of the 4 sets x 100 reps on monday, then on thursday doing 8 sets x 8 reps. Good results. Nice tip bro

_Trainlikeafreak
06-10-10, 1:21 am
Im a big fan of the 4 sets x 100 reps on monday, then on thursday doing 8 sets x 8 reps. Good results. Nice tip bro

Appreciate that homie.. Thats a crazy style workout for calves.. Do you go light monday and heavy thursday?

Aggression
06-10-10, 8:28 am
Yeah that article is great... Jersey til I die baby

Fuckin' a

Legacy
06-10-10, 10:10 am
Appreciate that homie.. Thats a crazy style workout for calves.. Do you go light monday and heavy thursday?

I guess you can say that lol. I usually do seated calf raises because I have highly inserted calves, so on monday ill do (1) 45 lb plate on the machine for the 100 reps, then for the 8 sets i'll usually have (2 or 3) 45 lb plates on the seated machine

Beowulf
06-10-10, 10:14 am
Sup fellow animals, its been awhile. I've been dieting my ass off and training harder than ever for my first show in July for teens. Anyway the one thing I've had the most trouble with was calves. After trying numerous experiments I finally found out a key part in the small but nevertheless steady growth in my calves over the past month. The trick is to hold the position at the top of whatever exercise one is doing for 5 seconds. Then slowly return all the way down to the starting position and hold that for 5 seconds. This puts constant stress on the muscle instead of pushing your calves up and down quickly which mainly puts pressure on your tendons. The guy that gave me this tip is in his 50's and looks insane. Trust me, this will work for anyone if it worked for me.

Nice tip. I will try this the next time I work calves.

PIJW
06-10-10, 10:19 am
I have been watching this for a while and thought i would throw out there what i do for calfs granted i love the way my calf look i still crush them.

Depending on the mood i either do.

Seated Calf raises 3, 4, 5, until its full of 45 plates, and each set to failure pausing at the top.
Leg Press calf raises 4 plates or 6 plates slide feet to bottom and work all 3 angles toes in, toes out and toes straight all to failure either 4 or 5 sets.
Or in Smith machine with one of those yoga board things with 225 or 315 on bar 4 or 5 sets to failure working all 3 angles again.

I can tell you it doesnt matter which one i do they hurt when i am done. One leg day i normally do seated and leg press but some times at the end of the week i will do them again depending on how i feel.

LegendKillerJosh
06-10-10, 12:05 pm
Also focus on straight leg calf raises as it will focus on the Gastroc muscle which is the largest calve muscle... when you do seated where your knees are bent soleus will be the main muscle worked which is flat and won't give you that much size... so my suggestion is something like this:

Leg Press Calve Raises: 4 sets - 6-12 reps
Donkey or standing calve raises: 3-4 sets 6-12 reps
Seated Calve Raises 3 sets - 6-12 reps

Do this at same tempo as you would any other muscle without yanking the weight like most ppl at the gym with their pencils x2 a week eat surplus of calories and you will grow.

IMO that is too much volume for calves. 1 or 2 exercises with 1 balls out set to failure with slow controlled reps is enough.


Calves are stubborn as are traps. They respond better to high intensity training. They need more attention because of this. Unless you have genetics on your side and were born with horse legs, you have to keep doing them or else you lose them. I've seen the results in my traps and calves because of this. Stubborn muscles need more squeeze, pause, and release down just before resting position, hold it, then back up. I saw Rodney train traps on a video and he uses light weight and holds it then goes a few inches down. My traps exploded. Then after the tip I got for calves I put two and two together and boom, results...

People often think traps are stubborn but then you see when they train them they put 800 pounds on the bar and do the poorest excuse for a shrug you'll ever see that looks more like a whole body spasm than a controlled exercise lol.

_Trainlikeafreak
06-10-10, 12:11 pm
IMO that is too much volume for calves. 1 or 2 exercises with 1 balls out set to failure with slow controlled reps is enough.



People often think traps are stubborn but then you see when they train them they put 800 pounds on the bar and do the poorest excuse for a shrug you'll ever see that looks more like a whole body spasm than a controlled exercise lol.

Yeah I agree. I mean they are stubborn because they are a bitch to hit correctly. But im telling ya I do shrugs with 40,45, then 50 lb dumbbells with strict form and they are growing like crazy. Form is key for everyone out there. Please leave the ego at home and try not to do what Legend said as mentioned above

_Trainlikeafreak
06-10-10, 12:18 pm
Yeah the way I do calves really does work for all those curious. They are muscles that in my opinion separate the real gym nuts from those who just go in and do arms and chest every day. It's funny talking to a friend of mine in the gym who took steroids and has chicken legs. He'll always say "Yeah I never wear shorts cause people only see my calves not my quads." I keep telling him that that is your ego getting to you. Just go man up and do the calves correctly and they will grow.

Mindaugas
06-10-10, 5:24 pm
IMO that is too much volume for calves. 1 or 2 exercises with 1 balls out set to failure with slow controlled reps is enough.


well i don't necessarily agree that it's too much volume.... but i agree that 1 or 2 would be enough for calves.... i would still go with 2... one with straight legs and one with bent legs, to focus on both main calve muscles.

LegendKillerJosh
06-10-10, 7:08 pm
well i don't necessarily agree that it's too much volume.... but i agree that 1 or 2 would be enough for calves.... i would still go with 2... one with straight legs and one with bent legs, to focus on both main calve muscles.

I switch it up, but weekly and not in every workout. One week I'll do seated calf raises, the next standing, the next sled, and so on. 1 exercise as long as it's done intensely enough is good for me.

music_man185
06-11-10, 7:09 pm
what is good to add SIZE to calves? i neglected calves for years, but have recently been training them 2-3 times a week. i've noticed a big change in them, but more cut and shape than size. i've read a lot of articles that talk about the calves having both fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. i do seated calf raises 6 sets. low weight, each set to failure. usually around 20-30. then i do 6 sets standing calf raises. high weight. 8-10 reps. i also do a few sets of reverse calf raises for the shins. i've always done my seated raises first, which might be a mistake for size.

like i said, i've noticed a great deal of shape and definition since doing this, but i'm having trouble getting the size i want.

Legacy
06-11-10, 8:33 pm
what is good to add SIZE to calves? i neglected calves for years, but have recently been training them 2-3 times a week. i've noticed a big change in them, but more cut and shape than size. i've read a lot of articles that talk about the calves having both fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers. i do seated calf raises 6 sets. low weight, each set to failure. usually around 20-30. then i do 6 sets standing calf raises. high weight. 8-10 reps. i also do a few sets of reverse calf raises for the shins. i've always done my seated raises first, which might be a mistake for size.

like i said, i've noticed a great deal of shape and definition since doing this, but i'm having trouble getting the size i want.

I've gotten the most size out of my calves from doing seated calf raises. Everyone says you gotta switch it up, but for my highly inserted calves, the seated raise has been doing its job. For one workout ill do 4 sets x 100 reps, and the next workout I'd do 8 sets x 8 reps. Been getting tremendous results from it. Also, I am glad you started training your tibialis, a lot of people tend to neglect that muscle. Shit that can add a full inch onto your lower legs, but people always seem to neglect it. I always superset whatever workout I am doing with my gastroc with my tibialis. So if I do 4 sets x 100 reps of seated calf raise, ill do 4 sets x 100 reps with reverse toe raises (on the iso ham machine weighted).

Shukin
06-11-10, 8:58 pm
Here's an article that mentions your exact strategy, yet goes a little more into detail:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/training-the-calves.html

My boy Bondons posted this up on his BB.com thread and I tried it out.

Thanks for this guys, great article!
Shukin

Legacy
06-11-10, 11:24 pm
I remember watchin this video a while ago, I have calves just like Victor that are inserted very high on the leg, good for sprinting and jumping, but poor for size lol. Interesting video though

http://videos.bodybuilding.com/watch/4752/east-coast-muscle-episode-4-victor-martinez-calves-training

_Trainlikeafreak
06-11-10, 11:44 pm
I think the calves just need to be shocked much more than other muscles. One calf day go super light, do 3-4 exercise in a circuit form til failure. Do a 2 or 3 sets. Next day go super heavy. Rep range 8-6-4 doing 8 reps regular stance, 8 reps feet out, 8 reps feet inverted. Take a longer rest in between the heavy lifting. Keep those bastards guessing and they'll not want to stop growing.

Robin
06-12-10, 11:05 am
Keep those bastards guessing and they'll not want to stop growing.

Sounds very interresting, I will have to try this out next time im in the gym.
Would you say that when doing 4 x 100 reps, you should 2 set feet inward then swicth 2 sets feet pointing outward?


I tried the calf metode that's in the artical agression postet. now my outer part of the calves is sore but the rest stay the same.

Robin

music_man185
06-12-10, 11:38 am
turning my feet in and out while training calves was very hard on my knees. instead, keep your feet pointed the same way, but aim the pressure on the inside and outside of your foot.

Legacy
06-12-10, 1:44 pm
Sounds very interresting, I will have to try this out next time im in the gym.
Would you say that when doing 4 x 100 reps, you should 2 set feet inward then swicth 2 sets feet pointing outward?


I tried the calf metode that's in the artical agression postet. now my outer part of the calves is sore but the rest stay the same.

Robin

When I do the 4 x 100 reps, I keep my feet straight. I keep them straight with every exercise, I am not a believer of changing the feet position. With that being said though, I do focus on where my pressure is being put on my feet. Am I pressing on my toes on the insides or outside or are all working together to push the weight.

_Trainlikeafreak
06-12-10, 6:28 pm
I went heavy of my calves today as well as my legs... Man I can't walk lol. I love this feeling!!!!

Legacy
06-12-10, 10:07 pm
Same here bro, bombed legs and calves today. Not lookin forward to not walking tomorrow lol

_Trainlikeafreak
06-13-10, 12:23 am
Yo Legacy, I already can't bend my legs all the way lol. Hamstrings are shot. My calves are fatigued as well. Icing them now and wathin Liddel make his return.

Legacy
06-13-10, 1:32 am
Yo Legacy, I already can't bend my legs all the way lol. Hamstrings are shot. My calves are fatigued as well. Icing them now and wathin Liddel make his return.

lol yeah man, after my workout I laid down for the remainder of the day and tried to get up and I am stiff as fuck. I had a great leg routine, and calves was just icing on the cake.

Robin
06-13-10, 5:54 am
When I do the 4 x 100 reps, I keep my feet straight. I keep them straight with every exercise, I am not a believer of changing the feet position. With that being said though, I do focus on where my pressure is being put on my feet. Am I pressing on my toes on the insides or outside or are all working together to push the weight.

Thanks Bro

i'll try that out on the next leg day.

Gotta love the feeling when you cant move cause your body is sore as hell, and you know you made every rep count.

Robin

_Trainlikeafreak
06-14-10, 12:00 am
Need your opinions on calves real quick.. I know that to get the best calf workout you put your toes on whatever your doing. So lets say your on the leg press doing calf presses. You put your tippy toes on the bottom of the rectangular board where you usually put for entire foot. Now I was wondering, would you hit more of the calf if you balance the board on the heels of your feet. Basically like take almost all the weight off, put your heels on the top of the board and push up, hold, go down, pause, repeat. Im thinking of giving this a try on tuesday just to switch it up.

_Trainlikeafreak
06-14-10, 12:49 pm
I just tried the motion and I gotta say I'm excited to try it on Tuesday

LegendKillerJosh
06-14-10, 12:52 pm
For all those who do sets of 100 reps on the calf raise, what is the point?

Legacy
06-14-10, 1:45 pm
For all those who do sets of 100 reps on the calf raise, what is the point?

I do them because thats what my calves respond to the best. Tried a number of different routines and this gives me the best results.

Mindaugas
06-14-10, 3:51 pm
I don't see how that's possible... 100 reps will hit type I fibers... and build endurance...i can't see how this can give size. Hypertrophy is 6-12 reps.

LegendKillerJosh
06-14-10, 4:32 pm
I don't see how that's possible... 100 reps will hit type I fibers... and build endurance...i can't see how this can give size. Hypertrophy is 6-12 reps.

I agree, I believe the since the calves are built to support your body weight and carry it around all day long that hitting it with a low intensity workout would just exhaust them farther and lead to overtraining. To me the best way to stimulate calves is extremely heavy weight, for very low reps, very slow reps and then get out when you reach failure and rest as much as possible.

Mindaugas
06-14-10, 4:42 pm
I agree, I believe the since the calves are built to support your body weight and carry it around all day long that hitting it with a low intensity workout would just exhaust them farther and lead to overtraining. To me the best way to stimulate calves is extremely heavy weight, for very low reps, very slow reps and then get out when you reach failure and rest as much as possible.

Yup, it's not that calves are magical muscle, it's just like any other in your body. It just is a different kind of lever (which puts it at a mechanical advantage, while all other muscle/joints are at a disadvantage) that's why we're able to run, jump, and move ridiculous amounts of weight with it. If high reps built big calves, long distance runners would have giant calves.

LegendKillerJosh
06-14-10, 6:36 pm
Yup, it's not that calves are magical muscle, it's just like any other in your body. It just is a different kind of lever (which puts it at a mechanical advantage, while all other muscle/joints are at a disadvantage) that's why we're able to run, jump, and move ridiculous amounts of weight with it. If high reps built big calves, long distance runners would have giant calves.

Exactly, if you have "stubborn" biceps would you do sets of 100 for those? HELL no.

Legacy
06-14-10, 10:34 pm
I don't see how that's possible... 100 reps will hit type I fibers... and build endurance...i can't see how this can give size. Hypertrophy is 6-12 reps.

Say what you want, but this is how my calves grow. I've tried other programs for months and this is what makes mine grow, which is why I hit them the way I do. I do my 100 reps on one day and then I do my 8 reps on another day. Might not make sense, but I use what works for me.

Mindaugas
06-14-10, 10:44 pm
Say what you want, but this is how my calves grow. I've tried other programs for months and this is what makes mine grow, which is why I hit them the way I do. I do my 100 reps on one day and then I do my 8 reps on another day. Might not make sense, but I use what works for me.

Well maybe it's the day you do 8 reps that is growing them. I'm not trying to offend you or put you on the spot just discussing.

Legacy
06-14-10, 11:59 pm
Well maybe it's the day you do 8 reps that is growing them. I'm not trying to offend you or put you on the spot just discussing.

I understand where you are coming from, and that could be the case, but I know the high reps are helping as well as the 8 reps in the process. Which is why I try programs out for 8-12 weeks and assess the results to see how my body responds to it. This is great thing about weightlifting, what works for someone may not work for others.

_Trainlikeafreak
06-15-10, 12:02 am
I understand where you are coming from, and that could be the case, but I know the high reps are helping as well as the 8 reps in the process. Which is why I try programs out for 8-12 weeks and assess the results to see how my body responds to it. This is great thing about weightlifting, what works for someone may not work for others.

Agreed, weightlifting is totally different for everyone. Thats the beauty of it; everything is theoretical which allows everyone and anyone to try new things.

_Trainlikeafreak
06-15-10, 9:28 pm
Okay for calves, 100 reps does work! Check out Erik Fankhouser, http://mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/lifestyles/2010-md-spring-seminar/3038-xero-limits-presents-branch-warren-and-erik-fankhouser-train-legs-at-the-md-seminar-part-two.html

says that high reps works for him

Mindaugas
06-15-10, 10:21 pm
I think he also said that his calves were always big... and still I think looking how the pro bodybuilders train and trying to apply to us wouldn't be the smartest thing.

Legacy
06-15-10, 10:23 pm
I think he also said that his calves were always big... and still I think looking how the pro bodybuilders train and trying to apply to us wouldn't be the smartest thing.

Its not the smartest thing but it gives you other views on how people train. The smartest thing you can do is understand your body and understand how it works under what conditions you put it in.

_Trainlikeafreak
06-15-10, 11:14 pm
Its not the smartest thing but it gives you other views on how people train. The smartest thing you can do is understand your body and understand how it works under what conditions you put it in.
True that bro, what works for one may not work for others. Each person knows their own body better than anyone else.

Legacy
06-16-10, 10:47 am
True that bro, what works for one may not work for others. Each person knows their own body better than anyone else.

Exactly bro. I think we get caught up too much in looking at specifics rather than a general perspective. Which is perfectly fine if your competing because you need to dial in all those extra details, but for the regular non-competitive bodybuilders and general weight lifters, I don't think the specifics are as important.

I always have held onto the concept that strength training, in and of itself is simple to understand, maximal efforts will yield maximal results. And focusing on not what is used, but rather how it is used and how hard it is used.

Finding what works for your body and utilizing it will help you get the most benefits you can to achieve your goal. Like I said previously, thats the great thing about this game, what works for you may not work for others. The other great thing about this game is it can be an exact science and can also be so simple at the same time.

Legacy
07-14-10, 1:56 pm
I started to rethink and I came up with my reason why I believe people are not satisfied with their calves. I believe that whatever you do for calves will work and the muscle will respond, but the big problem I tend to notice with people is there is a lack of consistency. You'll train your calves for a good 12 weeks and then after that 12 weeks you either die out or start missing calf workouts and then your back to square one. If you train your ass off consistently with calves over a long period, you will start seeing good gains. I think a lot of people just get lazy with them and after a while stop training them with greater intensity. You rarely miss a chest or back or leg day, why miss a calf day? Following through and being consistent with calves is what makes them grow.

Sprint
07-14-10, 8:08 pm
Yup, it's not that calves are magical muscle, it's just like any other in your body. It just is a different kind of lever (which puts it at a mechanical advantage, while all other muscle/joints are at a disadvantage) that's why we're able to run, jump, and move ridiculous amounts of weight with it. If high reps built big calves, long distance runners would have giant calves.

fully agree with this, in terms of high reps typically = hypertrophy. Thing is tho, my calves are fairly well developed from years of sprinting (they were already well developed before I began bodybuilding) but even your basic sprinting session, for example 3 sets of 3 150m. your typical sprinter will take around 70-80 strides for each of those runs. Break it down and you're looking at about 35 per leg, really break it down and its 9 sets of 35 reps for leg, using full bodyweight. So even sprinters, when on the track, do what a bodybuilder would call high reps.


Say what you want, but this is how my calves grow. I've tried other programs for months and this is what makes mine grow, which is why I hit them the way I do. I do my 100 reps on one day and then I do my 8 reps on another day. Might not make sense, but I use what works for me.


I started to rethink and I came up with my reason why I believe people are not satisfied with their calves. I believe that whatever you do for calves will work and the muscle will respond, but the big problem I tend to notice with people is there is a lack of consistency. You'll train your calves for a good 12 weeks and then after that 12 weeks you either die out or start missing calf workouts and then your back to square one. If you train your ass off consistently with calves over a long period, you will start seeing good gains. I think a lot of people just get lazy with them and after a while stop training them with greater intensity. You rarely miss a chest or back or leg day, why miss a calf day? Following through and being consistent with calves is what makes them grow.

I think you're bang on the money with the consistency comment there. Calves are always an afterthought at the end of the session.
Calves are stubborn, since you could walk they've been taking your bodyweight for thousands of reps every day.

For my calves, once per week with weights, 4 x 14 reps per set but short rest between sets (30-40 secs) with a weight thats more than my bodyweight. They get hit fridays, after thursday night track, so they get max recovery possible before next track session (tuesday). Because of the previous nights track antics always being different, I dont get too caught up in weight numbers for calves, because the degree of doms starting to set in on friday differs, but as long as its higher than my bodyweight.

sofiapertuit
07-17-10, 8:11 am
It's really useful tips. It's very interesting Sounds. Very helpful for me.Thanks....

LegendKillerJosh
07-18-10, 4:52 pm
If you're calves aren't responding well to training, you probably aren't being honest with yourself. I'm sure you write down exactly how much weight and reps you did on squats that day, and next week bust your balls training to get out another rep, right? Do you honestly do that for calves too? Do you keep track of your calve workouts, and stick with the same exercises each week and make sure you are progressively overloading? Or do you hit calves at the end of your workout, half-ass them, not write down your calf workouts and not give them the attention they need? Go into the gym on leg day, hit calves first, use heavy weights, keep track of your calf workouts, and they will grow!

Sprint
07-18-10, 6:43 pm
If you're calves aren't responding well to training, you probably aren't being honest with yourself. I'm sure you write down exactly how much weight and reps you did on squats that day, and next week bust your balls training to get out another rep, right? Do you honestly do that for calves too? Do you keep track of your calve workouts, and stick with the same exercises each week and make sure you are progressively overloading? Or do you hit calves at the end of your workout, half-ass them, not write down your calf workouts and not give them the attention they need? Go into the gym on leg day, hit calves first, use heavy weights, keep track of your calf workouts, and they will grow!

I wonder how many people this would apply to.

LegendKillerJosh
07-18-10, 10:35 pm
I wonder how many people this would apply to.

a ton I bet, I use to be the same way. Same goes with biceps. No training on "instinct." Record your fucking workouts, and make sure you are using heavier weights for more reps EVERY FUCKING TIME!

Sprint
07-19-10, 5:54 pm
a ton I bet, I use to be the same way. Same goes with biceps. No training on "instinct." Record your fucking workouts, and make sure you are using heavier weights for more reps EVERY FUCKING TIME!

if i didnt mix my sports/ training styles id be doin it. sometimes tho, more in winter than summer due to the changes in winter training (more speed endurance/strength as opposed to summer's out & out speed) the legs very in degrees of bolloxed-ness. My 1 rule tho is always go heavier than bodyweight simply so they're getting more weight put on them than on a day to day basis or indeed on the track.
Sometimes tho, it's a push just to get a few pounds over the bodyweight. One thing that's constant tho, is they always get their share, & they alwaya finish pumped, fucked & sore for a cuple days afterwards (walkin like a penguin)