Lets Talk Barbell Military Presses.

[The Misfit]

The standing barbell military press. I can't recall any other shoulder exercises that work such a large group of muscles than this particular exercise. Sure you have the standing dumbbell military press but nothing speaks "RAW" more than the standing barbell version.

Just break it down and you have a fair idea of what is involved in this basic yet effective movement:

Primarily you have the front and side delts involved. Secondary contributors to the press include the pectoralis major, the triceps (brachii head), the traps and serratus. Finally, overhead stability is provided through the core, triceps (long head) and biceps brachii.

I for one am no veteran/expert in the exercise. I have never been strong in the pressing movements either. Having just recently started the 5x5, I have focused on bringing them up. Just progressing on the exercise itself is difficult for me but I have found some correlation between overhead press strength and bench press strength. I would like to add that dips have also helped (but we will leave that for discussion some other time).

I think it is also important to note that while the standing barbell military press may not be as good a "shaping exercise" as the db lateral raise, it does however provide that foundation of THICKNESS. I'll take a quick pick at two current pros...Branch Warren and our own Evan Centopani...both press with barbells and I know they do them seated BUT they started out with the standing version and both these two are truly THICK from front to back. I also know some individuals who press quite a bit and they too are THICK.

I don't know what things are like over there in your gym. But in mine, there are only two or three other individuals that actually press overhead with a barbell. I know for a fact that I am the only one who does it standing. It seems that the standing barbell military press is being replaced by dumbbells and machines (CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG) on the basis of:

1. having the convenience of not having to load and unload the bar
2. safety: the standing barbell press is somewhat dangerous. In my opinion is BS and is
avoidable if PROPER technique is practiced.
3. there are other exercises that hit/build the delts better. How will one know if the
standing barbell military press is not effective/suitable for them if one does not do it
and stick with it for some time.

I'll start off the discussion with variance in hand positioning. I have found a wide grip to incorporate more side delt but I am weaker at this position. So I instead use a grip just outside shoulder width and I am at this position stronger at pressing (the aim of 5x5 is to increase strength in the lift). I bring the bar down slowly and rest it on my clavicles, from here I try to explosively press straight upwards not in a "J" motion.


So lets start talking standing barbell military presses. Your opinions on the exercise, your experiences, your concerns, your thoughts...don't be shy...fire away.

[Legacy]

I still do them. I vary mine though, when I do standing military presses, they usually turn into push presses. Pretty much the same exercise, however with the push press you slightly dip your body to get more power from it. I use this exercise as a power move, then at the end of my delt work I usually do a seated barbell press behind the neck.

[jeff00z28]

every big bencher i know can strict military press at lest 275.

[The Misfit]

I still do them. I vary mine though, when I do standing military presses, they usually turn into push presses. Pretty much the same exercise, however with the push press you slightly dip your body to get more power from it. I use this exercise as a power move, then at the end of my delt work I usually do a seated barbell press behind the neck.

On my 5x5 routine, I'll alternate standing barbell military presses with clean and presses, proper Olympic style where the one leg shoots back on the press and because the press part is not strict and involves my legs I am able to use a bit more weight. Most importantly though I'm able to execute the press more explosively which does follow over to when I'm pressing with strict form.
For some time (a year back) I push pressed with the bar behind my neck. Not too sure if this was the right thing to do safety wise but I found I was stronger doing it this way than if I did it to the conventional way.

I do however find that push pressing is more taxing and requires more balance/stability than just pressing alone. You too?

[The Misfit]

every big bencher i know can strict military press at lest 275.

That sounds about right. What would you consider (based on your experience and from others) to be strict form? I know keeping the legs out of the equation but what about where the bar is lowered to?

[Legacy]

On my 5x5 routine, I'll alternate standing barbell military presses with clean and presses, proper Olympic style where the one leg shoots back on the press and because the press part is not strict and involves my legs I am able to use a bit more weight. Most importantly though I'm able to execute the press more explosively which does follow over to when I'm pressing with strict form.

I do however find that push pressing is more taxing and requires more balance/stability than just pressing alone. You too?

I agree with that push pressing requires more balance and stability. If you think about, during the movement you are dropping your body down 1/4 the distance of a squat and then your are forcefully exploding up with the bar to a full lockout, the push press involves a rapid hip and knee extension rather than the strict military press where you are trying to keep all the focus on just your delts. Push press (even the push jerk) are great overall power movements for the body. I always do a press at the end of my workout and for the beginning its either a push press or power clean.

[The Misfit]

I agree with that push pressing requires more balance and stability. If you think about, during the movement you are dropping your body down 1/4 the distance of a squat and then your are forcefully exploding up with the bar to a full lockout, the push press involves a rapid hip and knee extension rather than the strict military press where you are trying to keep all the focus on just your delts. Push press (even the push jerk) are great overall power movements for the body. I always do a press at the end of my workout and for the beginning its either a push press or power clean.

What's your take on strength difference when pressing behind the neck and conventional pressing. When I did push press behind neck, it felt natural, I was stronger and I progressed in weight quicker than when I'd push presses to the front. Is it a case of weak front delts, triceps, weak core, weak posterior chain?....

[Legacy]

What's your take on strength difference when pressing behind the neck and conventional pressing. When I did push press behind neck, it felt natural, I was stronger and I progressed in weight quicker than when I'd push presses to the front. Is it a case of weak front delts, triceps, weak core, weak posterior chain?....

I do push presses in front of me, however when I lock out at the top the barbell feels like it is behind me (if that makes any sense to you, hard to explain). When I do my military presses at the end of the workout I always do them behind my neck though.

As far as your weakness of doing presses to the front, it is probably due to weakness of the triceps and delts. I highly doubt there is a weakness in your posterior chain that would affect your pressing, but that depends on how your hip and knee extension is, still regardless, your extension is probably good because you are doing it with behind the neck presses also. Best advice I can give you is to do what feels natural to you. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if you wanna change it up, through in some push jerks or power cleans.

[The Misfit]

Some good points being brought forward here. Hoping to hear where others stand on the standing bb military press.
Don't know if you've seen it yet, new vid on MD. Evan Centopani and Fouad Abiad training shoulders. I noticed a difference in technique which may be of some interest. I am aware that these are two totally different individuals so there are many reasons as to why they do it a certain way. Watching Evan press, he flares his elbows out as if to keep them somewhat parallel to the bar, Fouad on the other hand has his elbows more or less tucked in/at an angle to the bar. From previous experience, I have tried flaring the elbows and have found it to place more emphasis on the delts and less on the triceps, doing this way.

Wish I could post the link to the vid but it seems MD isn't working at the moment on my internet connection so you'll have to look it up yourself. :)

[The Misfit]

Just before I log off...here's a link to a forum discussion (no this forvm) on the standing military press. Big-Al has a part in it but I'm not too sure if it's THE Big-Al. Some real good points brought forward on it so have a read.

http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12197.html

[Legacy]

Wish I could post the link to the vid but it seems MD isn't working at the moment on my internet connection so you'll have to look it up yourself. :)

Yeah I saw the video yesterday, note they were doing presses on a smith machine. To me its completely different when you compare military presses on a smith machine and a barbell. Smith machine only goes up and down, doesn't allow your body to move freely and come forward and back a little bit. For me personally when I do smith machine presses, i use different form compared to a free weight press.

[Fearless Rabbit]

Great exercise, make you feel.. like a man. I love standing in front of the mirror, and just lifting that pure weight above my head. Like you said, nobody else does it, and that`s the other reason I love it - you stand apart.

I`m interested in two technical things about standing barbell presses: elbow positions, and vertical movement during the exercise.

How do you keep your elbows? Do you keep them completely wide, parallel with shoulder bone, or you slightly lean them in front of you?

Also, do you bend in your knees, while lowering the barbell? I usually stay fixed, grab nice secure position with my legs, and the barbell is the only thing moving. However, I saw some videos where guys.. bounce up and down?

[Mindaugas]

I love standing strict barbell press... it's just pure raw strength.

Here's a great instructional video: http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_RipPressReviewCLT.wmv

[Legacy]

This is pretty damn impressive, not the strictest form, but this is strongman for ya. Derek Poundstone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McXnEDg_HBk

[jeff00z28]

That sounds about right. What would you consider (based on your experience and from others) to be strict form? I know keeping the legs out of the equation but what about where the bar is lowered to?

Ya and making sure to stand up straight and go all the way to ur collarbone all the way back up till it's locked out.

[Wingman]

wat is the differemce between standing military, behind the back standing press, and seated military?

[The Misfit]

Yeah I saw the video yesterday, note they were doing presses on a smith machine. To me its completely different when you compare military presses on a smith machine and a barbell. Smith machine only goes up and down, doesn't allow your body to move freely and come forward and back a little bit. For me personally when I do smith machine presses, i use different form compared to a free weight press.

Shux I went back, re-watched it and realized they were using the smith machine. I agree with you there in the differences in the plane of movement for the smith and free barbell.
Evan looks great in that one.


Great exercise, make you feel.. like a man. I love standing in front of the mirror, and just lifting that pure weight above my head. Like you said, nobody else does it, and that`s the other reason I love it - you stand apart.

I`m interested in two technical things about standing barbell presses: elbow positions, and vertical movement during the exercise.

How do you keep your elbows? Do you keep them completely wide, parallel with shoulder bone, or you slightly lean them in front of you?

Also, do you bend in your knees, while lowering the barbell? I usually stay fixed, grab nice secure position with my legs, and the barbell is the only thing moving. However, I saw some videos where guys.. bounce up and down?

You bring up an interesting point. It would be good to here from others as to what their technical preferences are in terms of hand position, elbow position, range of motion. Personally, because my goal is strength increase in the standing bb press (5x5) I look for a position in which I am able to yield greatest pressing strength whilst maintaining good technique. For me that is a shoulder width stance, gripping the bar just beyond shoulder width (greater assistance from the triceps), elbows somewhat in front of me and a full range of motion (all the way down, all the way up). I think that if I was too use my legs, even just a little bit then that would count as a push press so no I don't use my legs when executing the standing bb press. And in order to keep strict from I make sure not to use a weight that I am able to press with strict from.


I love standing strict barbell press... it's just pure raw strength.

Here's a great instructional video: http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_RipPressReviewCLT.wmv

Exactly. Key word "RAW".


This is pretty damn impressive, not the strictest form, but this is strongman for ya. Derek Poundstone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McXnEDg_HBk

I swear that man is a beast!...Just as well no one was standing behind him. Note: Derek's got a unique/unusual way of cleaning the bar of the floor.


Ya and making sure to stand up straight and go all the way to ur collarbone all the way back up till it's locked out.


wat is the differemce between standing military, behind the back standing press, and seated military?

I'm definitely no expert but from my understanding:

Standing military press = of the three mentioned, standing incorporates the core and a few other muscles to stabilize . Overall, standing barbell presses utilize a larger group of muscles.

Behind neck = I think in this one one, your rear delt comes into play and your traps also assist a bit more.

Seated military press = being seated requires little stabilization allowing you to focus more on the delts.

[McDonalds]

Great subject. I have not included standing military presses in my routine, yet. This is because i fear a core too big for my proportions with narrow shoulders. So i have a dilemma you can say. But i have taken my fear of a big core to an extent that has now made me have to drop exercises because my core is giving out before my working muscle. So i do also fear that i have to start including some basic core training. And i now think standing military presses will be a good exercise to include in my routine.

[The Misfit]

Great subject. I have not included standing military presses in my routine, yet. This is because i fear a core too big for my proportions with narrow shoulders. So i have a dilemma you can say. But i have taken my fear of a big core to an extent that has now made me have to drop exercises because my core is giving out before my working muscle. So i do also fear that i have to start including some basic core training. And i now think standing military presses will be a good exercise to include in my routine.

I too am narrow in the shoulder department. I'll tell you who else is narrow in that department...Branch Warren and he swears by barbell military presses being a fundamental contributor to his shoulder width. For myself, pressing initially was a struggle for reasons: I could not properly balance with the weight overhead and I lacked pressing strength but the more I've done it, the better I've become...I think like all things the more one does it, the better one will become at it. Previous to now, I neglected the overhead press because I was not good at it. I've come to realize that such a mindset will not allow me to progress further.

I think the following is generic and will vary on the individual. Seeing I am doing stronglifts 5x5, here is the basic breakdown on the movement.
DISCLAIMER: the following is sourced from http://stronglifts.com/how-to-overhead-press-with-correct-technique/

What’s the Overhead Press? Press the bar from your front shoulders overhead until your elbows are locked. Your knees stay locked during the whole lift with feet shoulder-width apart. Overhead Press variations include:

* Military Press. Overhead Press with heels together.
* Push Press. Overhead Press using leg drive.
* Jerk. One of the two lifts in Weightlifting: the Olympic Jerk.

Benefits of The Overhead Press. You can lift more weight with the Bench Press than with the Overhead Press. But the Overhead Press has many benefits over the Bench Press. Some examples:

* Full Body. The Overhead Press works your body as one piece. Your trunk & legs stabilize the weight while your shoulders, upper-chest & arms press the weight overhead.

* Builds Muscle. Abs & back stabilize the weight. Shoulders, upper-chest & triceps press the weight overhead. The Overhead Press builds the physique of old-time strongman like Eugen Sandow.

* Healthy Shoulders. The Bench Press works your front shoulders more than your back shoulders. The Overhead Press works all shoulder heads equally. Alternating the Overhead Press with the Bench Press minimizes risks of shoulder injuries caused by muscle imbalances.

Overhead Press Setup. Put the bar on your front shoulders by taking it out of the uprights of your power rack or by Powercleaning the weight on every set.

* Foot Stance. Shoulder-width apart. Try a staggered stance: one foot 5-10cm/3-4″ in front of the other one.

* Grip Width. About 46cm/18″. The larger your build, the wider your grip. Hands should never touch your shoulders.

* Gripping the Bar. Grip is same as for the Bench Press. Bar close to your wrist, in the base of your palm. Not close to your fingers.

* Chest Up. Make a big chest & lift it up. Makes it easier to use your back muscles & shortens the distance the bar has to travel.

* Elbows Forward. Elbows in front of the barbell when looking from the side. Not upper-arms parallel with the floor, it’s not a Front Squat.

* Look Forward. Looking up is bad for your neck. Look forward, fix a point on the wall before you.

* Squeeze Your Glutes. Makes it impossible to arch your lower back, thus increasing safety. Squeeze your glutes hard

Performing the Overhead Press. Press the bar overhead in a straight line, that’s the shortest distance from start to finish. Unfortunately your head is in the way. So you’ll need to move your head & torso during the Overhead Press.

* Tilt Head Back. Quickly tilt your head back so the bar can pass your chin/nose without hitting them. Keep looking forward.

* Shift Torso Forward. Once the bar reaches forehead level, shift your torso forward. Continue pressing the weight overhead.

* Head Forward. Your chin should almost touch your chest when the weight is overhead. Look forward, not down.

* Lock Everything. Squeeze shoulders, traps & back. Lock your elbows. End position should look like in the picture below.

Tips to Improve Your Overhead Press Technique. Common errors you’ll make while learning how to Overhead Press with correct technique.

* Elbows Forward, Chest Up. You’ll forget to reposition yourself between reps at first. Start each rep with elbows in front of the bar & chest up.

* Bar High. The higher the bar on your chest, the shorter the distance it has to travel. Put the bar close to your clavicles. Quickly tilt your head back & forth. Clavicles might hurt at first, your skin will adapt & thicken.

* Go Forward. You’ll miss reps if you stay back vs. getting under the bar. Shift your torso forward when the bar reaches forehead level.

* Breathing. If you breathe at the top, you can bounce the bar off your chest making the next rep easier. Breathe at the bottom & you’ll press from a dead stop, making the next rep harder. The former allows more weight. The latter makes the exercise harder, making the former easier.

Sorry if this is a long post or just plain boring or if I have repeated some concepts already discussed. Thought I'd post something that covered the fundamentals of the standing overhead press.

[Thrawn]

gonna check this thread when i come back from the gym
mil press is what i suck at.

[Thrawn]

and what i mean with suck is:
- i appear to be very vulnerable to injury doing mil presses
- i feel like i do most of the work with the tri's, somehow i lack the 'feel' to incorporate my delts in it. (i have same problem with benching).
- i can be very inconsequent with them (as with my benching). one week i might do solid reps with good weight, the next i will have trouble with weight not coming close to what i should be able to do and be very unstable.

maybe its a problem that more ppl of my build have? I am rather narrow-shouldered. i have strong suspicions that plays parts with bench and overhead press.

[Mindaugas]

and what i mean with suck is:
- i appear to be very vulnerable to injury doing mil presses
- i feel like i do most of the work with the tri's, somehow i lack the 'feel' to incorporate my delts in it. (i have same problem with benching).
- i can be very inconsequent with them (as with my benching). one week i might do solid reps with good weight, the next i will have trouble with weight not coming close to what i should be able to do and be very unstable.

maybe its a problem that more ppl of my build have? I am rather narrow-shouldered. i have strong suspicions that plays parts with bench and overhead press.


Maybe just get a better warmup?

Before my shoulder workout and my chest, i make sure i warm up my shoulders properly.

First i get on treadmill and run till i start breaking a light sweat to get the blood going.

Then i do shoulder rotations 10 front and 10 back each side, then take 5 pound plates... 10 side raises, 10 front, 10 rear, 10 presses.... then take 2.5 pound plate 10 reps of each rotatorcuff exercise you know of. Then just keep moving your arms in all directions for a min or so... don't force any range of motion on any of these. Then wait around 1-2 minutes.... take the bar do 15 reps slow and controled... rest a minute and do 10 reps at the speed you would do your normal reps. View the pressing warm ups as technique practice and really emphasize your form.

hopefully helps.

[Thrawn]

Maybe just get a better warmup?

Before my shoulder workout and my chest, i make sure i warm up my shoulders properly.

First i get on treadmill and run till i start breaking a light sweat to get the blood going.

Then i do shoulder rotations 10 front and 10 back each side, then take 5 pound plates... 10 side raises, 10 front, 10 rear, 10 presses.... then take 2.5 pound plate 10 reps of each rotatorcuff exercise you know of. Then just keep moving your arms in all directions for a min or so... don't force any range of motion on any of these. Then wait around 1-2 minutes.... take the bar do 15 reps slow and controled... rest a minute and do 10 reps at the speed you would do your normal reps. View the pressing warm ups as technique practice and really emphasize your form.

hopefully helps.

Any suggestions are appreciated, even tho i do warm up nicely for all my work.
I am not sure why i am so inconsequent in benching and mil presses yet. But i WILL find out.
Thanks again for your suggestion. I will at the very least try to do more warmups next time. See if that brings something.

[The Misfit]

Any suggestions are appreciated, even tho i do warm up nicely for all my work.
I am not sure why i am so inconsequent in benching and mil presses yet. But i WILL find out.
Thanks again for your suggestion. I will at the very least try to do more warmups next time. See if that brings something.

My 02 cents...be aware I am not in any way a qualified physio so the following is based on what I know and what I have experienced.

I guess if you are warming up and still having problems then it would be good to pay a visit to a physio. From there they'll be able to instruct you/provide advice. As far as strengthening exercises for the shoulder/ac joint...shoulder rotations like Mindaugas said. I do know that for individuals recovering from AC joint surgery or who have partially 'popped' the AC joint (as in my case), the physio will have them do shoulder rotations BUT with a cable rather than a plate. This is done in a controlled manner and the elbow is kept against the body to emphasize the stress on the joint itself, 12-15 reps both sides. I still do this but save it rather for the end of a workout.

I think a lacking bench and military press can be due to a number of things: tricep strength, delt strength, core strength and technique. Again I'm still at beginner stage in the lifts but I believe technique is first and foremost in establishing a big press. I guess the only other way to know find out your answer is to ask the big benchers, G Diesel, Big Al and any other of the guys on the Forvm.

Here's a few you might want to watch:

Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh3t6T-nqP0

Mark Rippitoe on the bench press
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQutODgl2J4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMq1rTaErMc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kauc-9Dl4fc&feature=channel

[The Misfit]

A few on the press (standing barbell press):

Mark Rippitoe: Press Review (3 parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJFjYyA40ss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAXPJ3PfdyY&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtTEMRse54g&feature=channel

[mritter3]

nice thread bro...great info on what is a crucial shoulder exercise and a great mass builder.

[Thrawn]

Thanks for the links! I will check them out when i am back home (rather crap internet connection at my girls place where i am now).
I know that technically i am an okay bencher. Sure not perfect, but i do okay. I also know it aint my tri's, they pack good power. My delts are poor in strength compared to the rest of the body.
From the quick 'taste' i have gotten from the recent info gathered here: my grip should be less wide and i think i could benefit from diving under the barbell more. But like i said: i will go through the info and vids in the beginning of the week.

Thanks everyone for sharing the knowledge!

[jeff00z28]

A few on the press (standing barbell press):

Mark Rippitoe: Press Review (3 parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJFjYyA40ss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAXPJ3PfdyY&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtTEMRse54g&feature=channel

"you can leg press, but thats gay." i never did like that guy. he prolly thinks anyone without a beer belly is gay

[The Misfit]

"you can leg press, but thats gay." i never did like that guy. he prolly thinks anyone without a beer belly is gay

Haha. Classic. I think Rippitoe absolutely despises any machine. I do think he makes a good point there, in terms of overall functional strength. Correct me if I am wrong on this one but I've seen people load up the leg press machine (including myself) but when the time came to squat things didn't look so good or the squat was avoided completely. That being said, I don't think the leg press is in any way 'gay'. It serves it's purpose and that is probably why it's considered to be another one of those bread and butter exercises. I have never really been a big user of the leg press simply because I hold the squat in higher regard. All in all, I think I'd rather practice/achieve a heavy squat before a heavy leg press...if that makes any sense.

[Thrawn]

Calling any exercise gay is a bit 'out of line' for me. Every exercise has its merits and it depends on what you wanna achieve. Also: some machines might work for some and not for others. I know that the seated bench machine helped me a LOT with the regular bench even tho a lot of 'big lifters' couldnt understand why. At that point, i wasnt even concerned with the why or not. Doing them helped me through a barrier and that was all that mattered to me.

I will wear pink shoes, purple spandex and a yellow cape doing lunges if that will help me get a bigger squat. The eyes should be on the goal and the journey towards it. Not on what exercise you use to get there. The legpress is not be frowned upon, just because some consider it to be gay for some reason. Try it and see if it brings you any good. If it does work for you, you would be a fool not to keep using it.
In short: if some exercise, held in low or high regard, helps you progress towards your target? DO them.

[The Misfit]

Every exercise has its merits and it depends on what you wanna achieve.

Well said Thrawn. I agree 100% with you on that one. I guess another way to put it would be: an individuals goals will dictate what exercises will be used. It's always to good to keep an open mind about things.

[Thrawn]

Yeah. If i have ever learned a lesson by watching others, comparing programs and looking at exceptions to the rules is: do what works for you. Forget whatever others find silly, gay, too light, too heavy or whatever. If it works for you, DO it.
That does not mean you shouldnt keep an open mind. Not at all. But just dont be afraid to experiment. Or if your gut tells you to go against the grain. Go for it. Try it.
Big names made their own programs (Louie Simms, Jim Wendler) by following instinct and flatout trying things out. See what works.

Hell, i am even stubborn enough and have faith enough in my own capabilities and instinct to try 5-3-1 soon. Why does that sound like a big deal... well, right now i train on instinct and it works WELL. I have tried Westside before and that didnt work. 5-3-1 is, or at least feels, kinda like that to me. But after reading Jim Wendlers paper... my gut tells me to try it. So i WILL. If it leads to nothing... fine. At least i will have tried and gave it my all.

[The Misfit]

Hey Thrawn. This is off topic but I was wanting to know what things are like when training at 40. My father is in his mid 40's, I guess you could say he has sort of let himself go and I'm really keen to get training with him possibly in the christmas/new years holidays.
Any advice you could give training or diet wise or things in general based on your experience??
One more thing...is it true that life begins at 40?? haha. I've been told so by my father.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

[Thrawn]

Hey Thrawn. This is off topic but I was wanting to know what things are like when training at 40. My father is in his mid 40's, I guess you could say he has sort of let himself go and I'm really keen to get training with him possibly in the christmas/new years holidays.
Any advice you could give training or diet wise or things in general based on your experience??
One more thing...is it true that life begins at 40?? haha. I've been told so by my father.

Thanks. I appreciate it.


Sure, no problem. I hope everyone forgives the offtopic post.

Trainingwise
It is better and worse at the same time.
Better in that i know my body better. I know what works, i know how i react to things, i have less ego and more patience. A ´wiser´ lifter, if you will.
Worse as i can def tell recovery is not what it used to be. Neither is my flexability. And progression is more difficult.
That said. I like challenges. I dont make things easy for myself. I keep the basis of my training at the compounds, the big three lifts. And for conditioning there is nothing like pulling cars and tractors.

So tips for training would be
have or learn patience, set reasonable goals. dont expect to become a worldclass powerlifter at the age of 40.
spent a lot of time stretching and keeping your flexability up

Dietwise
When you are older is more difficult to get rid of bodyfat, thats for sure. And because recovery is down, proper food intake is also more important

So tips in the diet department
try to eat lean, bodyfat is less easy to shed once you get older
keep the diet clean. good wholefoods and a well balanced timetable will speed up recovery quicker


But most importantly, and i cannot stress that enough
Lift because its FUN. Dont see it as a chore. You step into that gym to get STRONGER. So its a purpose to go to the gym, not a chore.
Lift without ego. A big ego will sideline you quicker then you think.
Go grab that barbell, prove gravity WRONG and smile while you do it. Hell, even smile when you fail. Cause failure is not bad. That WILL happen if you keep facing challenges. Its NOT stepping up to a challenge that is bad.

This is my list, based on my experience and take on lifting.
I hope it helps.

[The Misfit]

Sure, no problem. I hope everyone forgives the offtopic post.

Trainingwise
It is better and worse at the same time.
Better in that i know my body better. I know what works, i know how i react to things, i have less ego and more patience. A ´wiser´ lifter, if you will.
Worse as i can def tell recovery is not what it used to be. Neither is my flexability. And progression is more difficult.
That said. I like challenges. I dont make things easy for myself. I keep the basis of my training at the compounds, the big three lifts. And for conditioning there is nothing like pulling cars and tractors.

So tips for training would be
have or learn patience, set reasonable goals. dont expect to become a worldclass powerlifter at the age of 40.
spent a lot of time stretching and keeping your flexability up

Dietwise
When you are older is more difficult to get rid of bodyfat, thats for sure. And because recovery is down, proper food intake is also more important

So tips in the diet department
try to eat lean, bodyfat is less easy to shed once you get older
keep the diet clean. good wholefoods and a well balanced timetable will speed up recovery quicker


But most importantly, and i cannot stress that enough
Lift because its FUN. Dont see it as a chore. You step into that gym to get STRONGER. So its a purpose to go to the gym, not a chore.
Lift without ego. A big ego will sideline you quicker then you think.
Go grab that barbell, prove gravity WRONG and smile while you do it. Hell, even smile when you fail. Cause failure is not bad. That WILL happen if you keep facing challenges. Its NOT stepping up to a challenge that is bad.

This is my list, based on my experience and take on lifting.
I hope it helps.

Thank you. That has given me great insight, I hope to pass this on to my father. I can definitely take something away from this and use it for myself.
Again, thank you for a very honest, informative and eye-opening piece of advice.

[Thrawn]

Thank you. That has given me great insight, I hope to pass this on to my father. I can definitely take something away from this and use it for myself.
Again, thank you for a very honest, informative and eye-opening piece of advice.

Sure, you are welcome.

Maybe this can also help:
Your father should remember that, when he goes to the gym for the RIGHT reasons, he has NOTHING to lose and everything to gain.
It might be a bit tougher and slower in our age (although i still feel like i am 30), getting good at lifting weights is very well possible.
Reaching for goals and being too stubborn to quit has kept me young and in shape. Most ppl still gimme the age of just over 30 and because i kept in shape, i can still do considerable work.

[jeff00z28]

Calling any exercise gay is a bit 'out of line' for me. Every exercise has its merits and it depends on what you wanna achieve. Also: some machines might work for some and not for others. I know that the seated bench machine helped me a LOT with the regular bench even tho a lot of 'big lifters' couldnt understand why. At that point, i wasnt even concerned with the why or not. Doing them helped me through a barrier and that was all that mattered to me.

I will wear pink shoes, purple spandex and a yellow cape doing lunges if that will help me get a bigger squat. The eyes should be on the goal and the journey towards it. Not on what exercise you use to get there. The legpress is not be frowned upon, just because some consider it to be gay for some reason. Try it and see if it brings you any good. If it does work for you, you would be a fool not to keep using it.
In short: if some exercise, held in low or high regard, helps you progress towards your target? DO them.


Haha. Classic. I think Rippitoe absolutely despises any machine. I do think he makes a good point there, in terms of overall functional strength. Correct me if I am wrong on this one but I've seen people load up the leg press machine (including myself) but when the time came to squat things didn't look so good or the squat was avoided completely. That being said, I don't think the leg press is in any way 'gay'. It serves it's purpose and that is probably why it's considered to be another one of those bread and butter exercises. I have never really been a big user of the leg press simply because I hold the squat in higher regard. All in all, I think I'd rather practice/achieve a heavy squat before a heavy leg press...if that makes any sense.

Agreed with both posts. barbells squats should be the staple. I just don't like that guy, he says bodybuilding is gay in other videos

[Thrawn]

Agreed with both posts. barbells squats should be the staple. I just don't like that guy, he says bodybuilding is gay in other videos

What works for YOU should be your staple. That can be barbell squats, leg extensions or running up and down the stairs all day. Do what works for you.
As a coach, Mr. Ripptoe has got a great reputation. I have learned some good things watching his tutorials. So do try to listen and look at what he says and is showing. Learning from someone has nothing to do with liking someone. I will admit that getting along with your tutor is much more fun tho =)))
His personal opinions however, are just that. He is entitled to them, like you are to yours. I ignore that part and try not to let that influence my opinion of him as a technical coach.

[The Misfit]

Thought I'd close the discussion with this my personal opinion.
Like Thrawn said, it's up to want the individual wants to achieve.
That being said, look across the spectrum...bodybuilders, strongmen, power lifters, athletes in general (gridiron, rugby, various other)...I'm willing to bet that if you were to take a peek into their weight training routines, you are very likely, if not guaranteed to find overhead pressing in there or variations of the overhead press. This in itself really says something about the movement itself.

[Thrawn]

Thought I'd close the discussion with this my personal opinion.
Like Thrawn said, it's up to want the individual wants to achieve.
That being said, look across the spectrum...bodybuilders, strongmen, power lifters, athletes in general (gridiron, rugby, various other)...I'm willing to bet that if you were to take a peek into their weight training routines, you are very likely, if not guaranteed to find overhead pressing in there or variations of the overhead press. This in itself really says something about the movement itself.

Exactly!
The big compounds are main staples for a reason. Proven concepts; lots of muscles moving at the same time, big weights used. Take your rest and your food together with that and you will be golden if you look for mass and strength.
I also think the mental aspect of diving under a big weight overhead says something about the athlete. Not being afraid of pushing up a big number, diving under and fixing it builds up character and confidence. Those last two assets are also found as main traits among strength athletes!

Just a small final endnote as a case AGAINST Ripptoe =)
In my gym there is this huge brother that has build up enormous quads and power with the legpress as his main staple. He admits he has a fear of squats (takes a MAN to admit that in my opinion) and prefers his routine of leg extensions, legpress, leg curls and hacksquats. He never squats. Looking at his massive pillars, i cant say he is wrong by not squatting =))

[Corsair]

Love this compound movement. I do it barbell and dumbbell, seated and standing. How can you not do military presses?

[G Diesel]

Agreed. A great movement and one of the most basic.

About as simple a test of strength as there could ever be--pushing weight straight up overhead.

The standing press is especially taxing and effective.

Peace, G

[Thrawn]

Love this compound movement. I do it barbell and dumbbell, seated and standing. How can you not do military presses?

There is no way someone can deny the awesomeness of a well executed mil press. Especially if there is some good weight on it.

[Thrawn]

I have made a great step forward with my standing mil press.
Just a few weeks ago i posted in here, because i always had a lack of 'feel' for them.

When something is not working, it is good to take a step back and start all over. I got some good tips and advice and today i was planning to go into the gym and do mil presses with barbell only. Just getting the damn form and motion down to a singe, muscle memory.
It took only ONE rep in front of a mirror and a line i remembered reading from Jim Wendler a few nights before to find my problem.

What to ME feels as a natural grip, is actually to wide. WAY to wide. According to Wendler, just outside shoulder width should be fine for most.
So i re-racked the empty barbell, closed in the grip. Felt strange to me, but the pressing felt GREAT.
Normally i always needed to do a pushpress to keep the weight going. Now i was able to handle the same weight with confidence and just press it strict.
After doing several sets: i am PROUD to say my DELTS hurt, not my tri's. The way it is supposed to be. I know 'FEEL' the movement.
The only way i can go now is forward with this. Actually, i bet that in a few sessions, when this 'new' form gets worked in, poundage will go up quick.

Sometimes it is good to re-evaluate weaknesses and lagging points. I am glad i did.

[Thrawn]

Agreed. A great movement and one of the most basic.

About as simple a test of strength as there could ever be--pushing weight straight up overhead.

The standing press is especially taxing and effective.

Peace, G

I have found that out today. Now that i can actually DO and FEEL a good standing mil press... it took only a few sets to get me panting and yelping.
The military press belongs in the same category as bench, deadlift and squat as far as i am concerned. Those move drip with awesomeness.

[The Misfit]

Just one more reason for doing the standing military press:

sourced from stronglifts, http://stronglifts.com/how-to-bench-press-with-proper-technique-avoid-shoulder-injuries/

Bench Press & Shoulders Pain. Shoulder pain from doing the Bench Press is common. Switching to dumbbells or quiting the Bench Press avoids pain, but doesn’t solve your shoulder problem. What you should do:

Avoid Muscle Imbalances. The Bench Press works your front shoulders more than the back ones. If you don’t strengthen these by doing the Barbell Row & Overhead Press, you’ll get a muscle imbalance. Causing bad posture & thus bad Bench Press technique.

[greatkeen]

so what exactly should be ideal grip & elbow positioning for standing millitary press with the objective of adding width to shoulder frame?

i use a little wider then shoulder width grip & elbow are out, so as to making a 90 angle when fully lowered..

what you guys suggest? also i know they are excellent mass builder but how effective are they in terms of adding width to shoulder frame? like side laterals do?

Thanks guys.

[Thrawn]

VERY good question. But beyond my expertise.
I would say that in general the position that lets you get the most good solid reps with good weight should be the most effective for both growth and strength, but it feels like a no-brainer to just say that. I have no 'scientific' bases to say this.

To me it sounds like your grip is pretty ideal in theory.

Maybe some of the more experienced and knowledgeble brothers can help out here?

[greatkeen]

so what exactly should be ideal grip & elbow positioning for standing millitary press with the objective of adding width to shoulder frame?

i use a little wider then shoulder width grip & elbow are out, so as to making a 90 angle when fully lowered..

what you guys suggest? also i know they are excellent mass builder but how effective are they in terms of adding width to shoulder frame? like side laterals do?

Thanks guys.

Come on fellas, this was my first post, and not even a single reply??? was it a too difficult of a question?

[greatkeen]

Come on fellas, this was my first post, and not even a single reply??? was it a too difficult of a question?

mods??? any one??? some repsonse i get on my very first post to this site!!!

[The Misfit]

Bumping an old thread.

I am a visual learner. Having come across this, it seemed suitable that it be added to the what has already been discussed.

The Military Barbell Press Anatomy:

http://freefitnessguru.com/Anatomy/images/military%20press%205%20combined.bmp

[The Misfit]

Come on fellas, this was my first post, and not even a single reply??? was it a too difficult of a question?


mods??? any one??? some repsonse i get on my very first post to this site!!!

Have a read through what has already been discussed, the video links etc.

[Jzepp]

I hear different opinions. Some guys say that seated barbell press will build more mass than standing military press as you can press more weight. I have always done seated barbell press and seated dumbbell press and my shoulders are pretty wide. Also, no matter which exercise you use, do you guys lower the weight to your clavicle? I dont lower any farther than my chin as i have read that lowering too low can mess the rotator cuff up. Any opinions on this?

[The Misfit]

I hear different opinions. Some guys say that seated barbell press will build more mass than standing military press as you can press more weight. I have always done seated barbell press and seated dumbbell press and my shoulders are pretty wide. Also, no matter which exercise you use, do you guys lower the weight to your clavicle? I dont lower any farther than my chin as i have read that lowering too low can mess the rotator cuff up. Any opinions on this?

I'll throw my $0.02 in and say do both. From a power/strength perspective I view the standing version to be most suitable (more muscles are needed for stability etc.).
Also, it all comes back to individual goals. The exercises performed should be suited to the pursuit(s) of the individual.

As to where to bring the bar, I believe in a "full" range of motion therefore I prefer to lower the bar onto the clavicles. My personal preference.

I've borrowed an excerpt from "Ask Machine", it concerns that which you have stated. The first is the original question, the second is Machines reply:


Hey Machine,

I see videos of people doing barbell presses to the forehead, the nose, the chin, and others to the chest. What's the right way?

Also, I wanted to ask how the hell did you build your pressing power. I have read articles where you were hitting 405+. Most people these days will be lucky if they get two plates a side.

I want that strength.

Thank you for your time.


I always belived in the delt/chest tie-in and as such I built my shoulder and chest routines around the premise that you borrow from the power of the chest to build the shoulder foundation...and you borrow from the power of the shoulders to build the chest foundation. That said...I prefered the angle on the shoulder presses to be slightly less rigid than most to facilitate improved stability and pressing power, you must also have extremely strong triceps I routinely close grip benched 450 for reps...this will help. So...drop the angle of the bench during barbell and dumbell presses, ALWAYS STACK THE HANDS DIRECTLY ABOVE THE SHOULDER JOINTS during chest and shoulder pressing, and up the angle of the inclined presses barbell and dumbell presses. Secondarily, I always did extremely heavy dumbell shoulder presses as I believe this potentiates total shoulder stability and strength.

Chest training is the same way in that I always handled extremely heavy dumbells during chest training and again this potentiates total stability and strength.

Also, you can bring the barbell down as low as is comfortable for you...I bring it an inch below the level of the chin.

MACHINE