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music_man185
07-01-10, 10:11 am
for as long as i can remember, i've squatted on the smith machine and always squatted to a bench. now i've finally decided that i'm not going to get the development in my legs that i want unless i do barbell squats and go as low as i can. the problem is, i've always read that when your squatting, your knees shouldn't go past your toes. however, i dont know how to go that low without this happening. i never had this problem on the smith machine, because when i would unrack it, i would take a step forward. this would put my feet way out in front of me.

what do you guys do? how do you keep your knees from going past your toes? or is the whole thing just a myth or something?

widdlewade44
07-01-10, 10:17 am
The shearing forces exerted on the knees is high as one squats and has the knees out over the toes. Dr. Squat has written a number of articles about this.

Sounds to me as if your flexibility needs to develop as you move from the Smith to free weight barbell squatting.

Kevin
widdlewade44

HIGA MONSTER
07-01-10, 10:24 am
You are so used to the Smith, that you have just developed a habit of relying on the machine to "protect" your form.

Start doing some Bodyweight squats lightly and controlled to get proper form.
Also, your flexibility can be an issue while doing a squat.

Best thing to do is squat in front of a wall, maybe about a foot away.
If you squat and your head or knees hit the wall, your form is improper and you want to correct that.

1. Keep your chest up
2. Hinge at the hip where it meets the top of your thigh
3. Keep your abs up and in

If you can't see your toes while in the bottom position of a squat, your form is jacked up.
Also, if you see "daylight" under your heels while squatting, your form is jacked up again. Gotta protect those knees.

HIGA MONSTER

Legacy
07-01-10, 10:36 am
I see no problem with having your knees go over your toes. To me this has been a myth that everyone has followed for some odd reason. As a strength coach, we never taught our athletes to restrict the movement because their knees would go over their toes, and I will continue to hold my opinion on this theory. Now I will explain my reasoning.

Does keeping your knees behind your toes take stress off the knees? Yes it does, but in order for that stress to be off the knees it has to be redirected somewhere in the body. The majority of the time that stress is going to be directed to the hips and lower back, not a good combo. When you restrict your knee movement of extending, you are also creating a greater anterior lean in the core and this creates a different angle at the kness and ankles. If the knees are not moving forward during a squat, the quads are not being properly fired. Obviously if your doing a powerlifting squat the knees won't be moving forward as much as if you were gonna do a bodybuilding type squat to more engaged the quads. Squats overall are a great movement and have been proven to decrease knee injuries, the problem is when people do them wrong or are inexperienced.

rev8ball
07-01-10, 11:20 am
One of my articles:

"Contrary to popular belief, research has demonstrated that the squat does not place excessive strain on the knee, and, in fact, has shown that the squat produces significantly less strain than the leg extension. Forces generated by leg extensions were found to be greater than 4.5 times during leg extensions, compared to 3.5 times during the squat. Forces on the knees were also much lower when the squat was performed with heals on the ground compared with heels elevated during both the descent and ascent.

Research has also demonstrated that restricting movement so that the knees do not pass beyond the toes results in a decreased knee torque. However, the restricted squat may also increased forward lean, which was shown to increase lumbar shear forces. Therefore, improving dorsi/plantar flexion, while maintaining a forward gaze with the head, will help prevent this increase in lumbar shear forces. This will also help place the force generated by the weight to the larger hip joint verses the smaller knee joint.

Studies also indicate that stance width variation does alter muscle recruitment patterns. A stance greater than shoulder width may increase muscle activation, and, therefore, increase force production. As a result, performance during the execution of the lift may be increased.

It is also important to ensure adequate conditioning of the hamstring muscles in comparison to the quadriceps to ensure adequate force generation during co-contraction in order decrease shear forces and increase knee stability. Increasing the force of co-contraction of the hamstrings has also been shown to reduce ACL forces during knee flexion and therefore may reduce injury.

Conclusion:
Optimal squat technique to minimize the risk of injury and ensure maximal activation of the leg muscles should be wide stance (feet greater than shoulder width) with a natural foot positioning; unrestricted knee movement of the knees (heels remain in contact with the floor, knees do not travel over toes); and gaze should stay forward."

Legacy
07-01-10, 1:22 pm
One of my articles:

"Contrary to popular belief, research has demonstrated that the squat does not place excessive strain on the knee, and, in fact, has shown that the squat produces significantly less strain than the leg extension. Forces generated by leg extensions were found to be greater than 4.5 times during leg extensions, compared to 3.5 times during the squat. Forces on the knees were also much lower when the squat was performed with heals on the ground compared with heels elevated during both the descent and ascent.


I completely agree on this, leg extension does put a lot of tension on the knee, especially the beginning part of the movement, detrimental to the patellar tendon

AntoineV
07-01-10, 2:44 pm
Check this picture out :

http://www.ivankobarbell.com/Photo/fred-tom.jpe


knees have to pass the feets when going deep... otherwise you would be floating in mid air or something.

Just make sure your heels never leave the floor and that you stick your butt out and chest. The first thing you should do when going down for a squat is to STICK YOUR BUTT OUT not bend the knees.

JUGGERNAUT
07-01-10, 3:03 pm
One of my articles:

"Contrary to popular belief, research has demonstrated that the squat does not place excessive strain on the knee, and, in fact, has shown that the squat produces significantly less strain than the leg extension. Forces generated by leg extensions were found to be greater than 4.5 times during leg extensions, compared to 3.5 times during the squat. Forces on the knees were also much lower when the squat was performed with heals on the ground compared with heels elevated during both the descent and ascent.

Research has also demonstrated that restricting movement so that the knees do not pass beyond the toes results in a decreased knee torque. However, the restricted squat may also increased forward lean, which was shown to increase lumbar shear forces. Therefore, improving dorsi/plantar flexion, while maintaining a forward gaze with the head, will help prevent this increase in lumbar shear forces. This will also help place the force generated by the weight to the larger hip joint verses the smaller knee joint.

Studies also indicate that stance width variation does alter muscle recruitment patterns. A stance greater than shoulder width may increase muscle activation, and, therefore, increase force production. As a result, performance during the execution of the lift may be increased.

It is also important to ensure adequate conditioning of the hamstring muscles in comparison to the quadriceps to ensure adequate force generation during co-contraction in order decrease shear forces and increase knee stability. Increasing the force of co-contraction of the hamstrings has also been shown to reduce ACL forces during knee flexion and therefore may reduce injury.

Conclusion:
Optimal squat technique to minimize the risk of injury and ensure maximal activation of the leg muscles should be wide stance (feet greater than shoulder width) with a natural foot positioning; unrestricted knee movement of the knees (heels remain in contact with the floor, knees do not travel over toes); and gaze should stay forward."

Nuff said and the way I squat.

mritter3
07-01-10, 3:16 pm
def. need to be more flexible bud...but you could try to widen your stance a bit...make sure you drop your ass..keep your head up...and lighten the load til you can safely and comfortable go low...then start Slowly adding some weight to it...but never sacrifice form for weight.

music_man185
07-01-10, 5:20 pm
my flexibility isn't good. but i'm still not sure how to keep my knees from going over my toes while trying to go as low as possible. i do what everyone has said. i keep my chest up. stick my butt out. and push with my heels. when i picture it in my head, it seems like your knees would HAVE to go over your toes unless your feet are out in front of you. but thats impossible without falling backwards. or bend over more....but that would be terrible for the back.

i also started out really light to get the feel for it. i started at 95 pounds. and didn't get heavier than 135 lol.

Legacy
07-01-10, 6:57 pm
my flexibility isn't good. but i'm still not sure how to keep my knees from going over my toes while trying to go as low as possible. i do what everyone has said. i keep my chest up. stick my butt out. and push with my heels. when i picture it in my head, it seems like your knees would HAVE to go over your toes unless your feet are out in front of you. but thats impossible without falling backwards. or bend over more....but that would be terrible for the back.

i also started out really light to get the feel for it. i started at 95 pounds. and didn't get heavier than 135 lol.

If you read all the above man, you should understand now that allowing your knees to go over your toes is a normal part of the squat. Stop trying to hold back cause all your going to do is take the emphasis off your quads and put a lot of strain on your low back and hips.

jrh0341
08-13-10, 11:47 pm
yeah, your knees will go forward some, not that big a deal. Check your FEET though. ONe thing I see in the gym is that a lot of people whos knees go very far forward or who just cant get their form right, have thier toes pointed to far outward. Just something to check.


Also, think about front squats. Not as a replacement, but a training tool. Sometimes people that are having trouble really getting comfortable going in and out of a deep squat, do a few weeks of front squats and come back with much better reg squat form.

Oz_78
08-14-10, 8:49 am
While Im in no league like so many of the present company, have always made it a bit of a conscience thing to keep my knees behind my toes when squatting. Maybe lighten up the load to get your technique down pat and go from there, as like its been said, seems to be out of habit you've relied on the smith machine to correct form..

arab910
08-14-10, 9:42 am
get your ass back and itll just happen, trust me. if it doesn't, like these guys have been alluding to, you need more flexibility. try the "sqaut stretch" and some hip flexor stuff to improve your ROM from the squat position

_Trainlikeafreak
08-14-10, 12:39 pm
Stick your butt out as much as possible and then go down, the knees can go forward. Thats how I was taught a few weeks ago and now everyone says my form is picture perfect. Just start with the bar and get the form down. They are so fun once you get the hang of them lol.

B. Rowe
08-14-10, 1:18 pm
my advice to any new squater is chest up sit back on your heals, ass out and squat down like your gonna take a shit and dont wanna get anything on you. Easiest way to explain good technique