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IRN-NML
08-07-10, 9:11 am
First, this ain't a how to and doesn't apply across the forum but:

After reading some good posts here on shoulders; including traps and after seeing a couple average size guys in the gym with above average noticeable shoulders, I've come to a renewed or more respected importance of shoulders. Late in my game, but:

If you know you're going to be all in for the iron for the next year, two, five years, life; be DETERMINED not to leave without growing a set of shoulders no matter how hard, slow or dull it seems!

Yeah, it's all important. Back, probably the most; without a strong healthy back you can be painfully screwed. Leg strength builds whole body strength, and unless you're thin as spaghetti or truly obese, it doesn't take that long or hard to build a decent man's chest and arms.

Working shoulders can seem like watcing paint dry. There's no meat up there, they hurt, can't pile on the weight for the next set, feel stupid flapping the arms with light dumbbells for lat raises or front raises...and on and on. All I can say, is do it all anyway; read up, change up, solve or get around any issues, figure out ways to make 'em grow and show; no matter how long or hard it is. They're both ego busters as far as really upping the weights and stubborn like calves in growing. But, you're the boss; don't blink, don't back down, don't leave this iron life without them.

My 1c.

BamBam
08-07-10, 11:43 am
First, this ain't a how to and doesn't apply across the forum but:

After reading some good posts here on shoulders; including traps and after seeing a couple average size guys in the gym with above average noticeable shoulders, I've come to a renewed or more respected importance of shoulders. Late in my game, but:

If you know you're going to be all in for the iron for the next year, two, five years, life; be DETERMINED not to leave without growing a set of shoulders no matter how hard, slow or dull it seems!

Yeah, it's all important. Back, probably the most; without a strong healthy back you can be painfully screwed. Leg strength builds whole body strength, and unless you're thin as spaghetti or truly obese, it doesn't take that long or hard to build a decent man's chest and arms.

Working shoulders can seem like watcing paint dry. There's no meat up there, they hurt, can't pile on the weight for the next set, feel stupid flapping the arms with light dumbbells for lat raises or front raises...and on and on. All I can say, is do it all anyway; read up, change up, solve or get around any issues, figure out ways to make 'em grow and show; no matter how long or hard it is. They're both ego busters as far as really upping the weights and stubborn like calves in growing. But, you're the boss; don't blink, don't back down, don't leave this iron life without them.

My 1c.

Alot of people over look the importance of having good shoulders, not for aesthetics, but for health and strength. I have always been told that I will only be able to go as far as my shoulders will take me (in regards to time training). If your rotators r weak and unhealthy... forget about having a big bench for long or at all (also if you have weak front delts). A lot of injuries can be avoided on the bench by having a bigger or shit.. HUGE shoulder girdle. Helps absorb and disperse the training load over your shoulders, upper back, lats, traps, and tris. Also, your upper back is probably one of the most important areas in regard to strength. When you bench, all the pressure should start on your upper back. Squatting and deadlifting... if your upper back and tight, dont lift... I can go into detail but.. some guys should do their own research.. (not directed at you bro)

All in all good post man. I like where your heads at but don't put aesthetics above health and strength. Size will come...

IN IRON,
BB-

AntoineV
08-07-10, 12:40 pm
Shoulders complete a physique really well. even if you have huge legs or back, if you lack shoulders it's awkward looking.

Legacy
08-07-10, 12:41 pm
Alot of people over look the importance of having good shoulders, not for aesthetics, but for health and strength. I have always been told that I will only be able to go as far as my shoulders will take me (in regards to time training). If your rotators r weak and unhealthy... forget about having a big bench for long or at all (also if you have weak front delts). A lot of injuries can be avoided on the bench by having a bigger or shit.. HUGE shoulder girdle. Helps absorb and disperse the training load over your shoulders, upper back, lats, traps, and tris. Also, your upper back is probably one of the most important areas in regard to strength. When you bench, all the pressure should start on your upper back. Squatting and deadlifting... if your upper back and tight, dont lift... I can go into detail but.. some guys should do their own research.. (not directed at you bro)

All in all good post man. I like where your heads at but don't put aesthetics above health and strength. Size will come...

IN IRON,
BB-

I agree. Having a big shoulder girdle is important and having a deep strong bone structure in the upper body is equally as important. That being said back and legs are probably the most important parts to train from a functional standpoint. Just look at a majority of seniors that are in their 50's+, slumped backs, bad knees, and difficulty in performing general tasks. Do you want to be at that point in life? I know I don't. We gotta remember that this is all about longevity and not necessarily about the short term. Sure you have short term goals to accomplish lifts and do shows, but I wanna be the guy who is 90 years old and still feeling like I am 50. Legs and back generate so much power throughout the body and along with the core help keep your body in balance and a correct posture.

Strong delts though do make you look like a big motherfucker though, especially well developed rear delts. Nothin like seeing the back of a bodybuilding and seeing a roadmap with mountains lol

BamBam
08-07-10, 12:45 pm
I agree. Having a big shoulder girdle is important and having a deep strong bone structure in the upper body is equally as important. That being said back and legs are probably the most important parts to train from a functional standpoint. Just look at a majority of seniors that are in their 50's+, slumped backs, bad knees, and difficulty in performing general tasks. Do you want to be at that point in life? I know I don't. We gotta remember that this is all about longevity and not necessarily about the short term. Sure you have short term goals to accomplish lifts and do shows, but I wanna be the guy who is 90 years old and still feeling like I am 50. Legs and back generate so much power throughout the body and along with the core help keep your body in balance and a correct posture.

Strong delts though do make you look like a big motherfucker though, especially well developed rear delts. Nothin like seeing the back of a bodybuilding and seeing a roadmap with mountains lol

True that brother. I agree legs and lower back are probably the things that mean the most in a functional aspect aside from your core (again lower back incorporated in this too), but I have found that if my shoulders r lagging then every type of press or raise I do either goes down in intensity, weight, or just plain hurts...

I like what you said about "down the road" too in terms of age.. I just read something from Dave Tate and he said that in his training.."... Now I focus on the process, not the destination, whereas earlier in my training it was the opposite.." I liked this

IN IRON,
BB-

Legacy
08-07-10, 1:58 pm
Shoulders complete a physique really well. even if you have huge legs or back, if you lack shoulders it's awkward looking.

I know what you mean. Thought about this for a while and one thing that came to mind was Johnnie Jackson. Don't get me wrong, the guy has some ridiculous shoulders, but his back and chest are definitely the strongest bodyparts. Huge back and chest hide the delt development he has. I see what you mean

prowrestler
08-07-10, 2:19 pm
and unless you're thin as spaghetti or truly obese, it doesn't take that long or hard to build a decent man's chest and arms.

Working shoulders can seem like watcing paint dry.

this is just flat out wrong, sorry.

my shoulders grew way better and faster then my chest. they are also better developped then my arms are.

that kinda shit is purely genetic. there are alot of lifters who have a problem with chest growth DUE TO OVER POWERING DELTS. shoudlers strong enough to take the weight of the pecs and on themselves.

IRN-NML
08-07-10, 2:59 pm
Pro, I would bet you still have a pretty d*mn good chest and arms; even if you know your shoulders are way ahead of them. I respect you on that!

I also agree with the others about the importance of a strong back etc. I covered that in the OP.

Antoine & Bam did concisely spell it out better than I did that shoulders complete a physique; you've got some shoulders growing; not necessarily cannonballs; maybe just grapefruit or even oranges, tied in with everything else, you're going to appear to be a bodybuilder vs the guy who just hits the gym to lift weights. This, in my opinion, is especially true for the smaller, lighter weight guys as opposed to the big boys whom can get tagged bodybuilder just from being big.

All this was intended to be was a shout out, I guess for shoulders. Most here are young guys, loaded with test, probably chomp at the bit for National chest day and love the torture of leg day. Just sayin' take the potential you have and grow a pair; those muscles right below your ears. If they grow like weeds, great, if it doesn't seem like they do, keep plugging away anyway.

prowrestler
08-07-10, 3:43 pm
im a big fan of big shoulders, i really thing they are more important then a big chest or set of guns.

D-Kev
08-07-10, 4:44 pm
Great thread, I am one whose been pluggin' away at my delts for a long time, yet they
are stubborn! Nice Delts, you can't help but notice em' and they really fill out a shirt.

I am really trying to get that full cap look but I can't seem to get them sore, do you know what I mean? I know soreness isn't ness. an indication of a great session...

I have been hittin em with all kinds of raises, presses and flys'...Always changing up the workout. If anyone's got a killer plateau buster you can pm me with it or post it and I'd definitely appreciate it and get it in next week! Thanks.

BamBam
08-07-10, 4:57 pm
Great thread, I am one whose been pluggin' away at my delts for a long time, yet they
are stubborn! Nice Delts, you can't help but notice em' and they really fill out a shirt.

I am really trying to get that full cap look but I can't seem to get them sore, do you know what I mean? I know soreness isn't ness. an indication of a great session...

I have been hittin em with all kinds of raises, presses and flys'...Always changing up the workout. If anyone's got a killer plateau buster you can pm me with it or post it and I'd definitely appreciate it and get it in next week! Thanks.

I've got a few things I used to do to help... my shoulders (especially rear delts) have become a lot stronger than ever before.

Sprint
08-07-10, 6:15 pm
Always been a big fan of the arnold press.
Built my shoulders nice & round.
Bent lateral raise for rear delts for me.

Big shoulders cap off the physique & help give the illusion of a slimmer waist.

BamBam
08-07-10, 6:19 pm
Always been a big fan of the arnold press.
Built my shoulders nice & round.
Bent lateral raise for rear delts for me.

Big shoulders cap off the physique & help give the illusion of a slimmer waist.

*... see LeVrone

I have alot of shoulder stuff hidden away in my arsenal that has helped alot with strength mainly, but as the weights go up, so do my delts

IN IRON
BB-

prowrestler
08-07-10, 6:35 pm
*... see LeVrone

I have alot of shoulder stuff hidden away in my arsenal that has helped alot with strength mainly, but as the weights go up, so do my delts

IN IRON
BB-

share with us, always up for some growth in the shoulders

BamBam
08-07-10, 6:43 pm
share with us, always up for some growth in the shoulders

Barbell Presses- at the top of the press push your shoulder blades up like u r trying to push the weight through the ceiling
Monkey Raises- Hold the DB in your hand, palms facing, and raise the dumbells up to your armpits like a shrug. Elbows bend like they would with an upright row... usually do these after my side raises
Wide Grip upright rows- pinky on power ring
Strip the rack presses- these r just plain nasty
shrugs- front and back

I will throw one or two of these in with my normal routine (being my west-side template), and also on accessory days.

Try some insane barbell complexes too... see what ur made of.

IN IRON,
BB-

prowrestler
08-07-10, 6:48 pm
my rack doesnt allow for strip the racks sadly due to random knobs and such. always wanted to try those.

some good exercises there, the db upright rows after laterals is something ive done before and liked

BamBam
08-07-10, 6:54 pm
my rack doesnt allow for strip the racks sadly due to random knobs and such. always wanted to try those.

some good exercises there, the db upright rows after laterals is something ive done before and liked

That sucks about the rack. Find a rack sometime and no matter what day it is, do them. Also the barbell complexes are always worth a try... this one is my favorite

Deadlift- barbell row - upright row - hang clean- push press- overhead squat *repeat*

Don't stop. Move from one movement to the other or do 5-10 of each exercise and move right into the next. That is a killer... trust me

prowrestler
08-07-10, 8:05 pm
That sucks about the rack. Find a rack sometime and no matter what day it is, do them. Also the barbell complexes are always worth a try... this one is my favorite

Deadlift- barbell row - upright row - hang clean- push press- overhead squat *repeat*

Don't stop. Move from one movement to the other or do 5-10 of each exercise and move right into the next. That is a killer... trust me

deffinatly. done light id use that as a conditioning drill doing 10 reps per exercise. kinda like "the bear"

for shoulders i like the complex of side raise to upright row to strict press to push press, now that 1s bitch

AntoineV
08-08-10, 12:20 am
What helped me cap my side delts and make me look wider is that I used to do up to 10 sets of side laterals first in my shoulder workout. Then I would do the presses and etc.

IRN-NML
08-08-10, 11:03 am
Tomorrow (Mon.) shoulders, Tuesday soreness!

BamBam
08-08-10, 12:24 pm
What helped me cap my side delts and make me look wider is that I used to do up to 10 sets of side laterals first in my shoulder workout. Then I would do the presses and etc.

Nice!! I think I will throw this in on accessory day

Oxbowsky
08-08-10, 2:15 pm
Well I am thin as spaghetti but I would love to build up shoulders. I think big shoulders are the toughest looking thing.....other than the front raises and side raises do you guys know any other beginner shoulder workouts? I want to try to switch up the workouts i'm doing here and there.

BamBam
08-08-10, 2:18 pm
Well I am thin as spaghetti but I would love to build up shoulders. I think big shoulders are the toughest looking thing.....other than the front raises and side raises do you guys know any other beginner shoulder workouts? I want to try to switch up the workouts i'm doing here and there.

Anything that had the word "press" in the title... Military press, DB Military press, strict over head press, push press, Arnold press, hammer strength press, strip the rack press.... ya see?

Add in some HEAVY ass shrugs (use good form once again... none of this "shoulder rolling" shit..) and some raises and you are set. I am sure if you use the search tab here there r plenty of threads about a good place to start in designing your own shoulder session.

If I can be any help let me know

IN IRON
BB-

Oxbowsky
08-08-10, 2:29 pm
hey thanks i'll definitely load up on the press' lol.
Yeah I posted in a thread about how I did shrugs and didn't feel anything so my posture is pretty much crap. I was thinking about maybe going over to the machine (don't know what it's for) but it's down low and you rack weights on both sides and putting like 45 lb weights on each side and the bars on each side pull up and standing in front of it and pulling up those bars to my shoulders and then maybe have a better posture.

BamBam
08-08-10, 2:32 pm
hey thanks i'll definitely load up on the press' lol.
Yeah I posted in a thread about how I did shrugs and didn't feel anything so my posture is pretty much crap. I was thinking about maybe going over to the machine (don't know what it's for) but it's down low and you rack weights on both sides and putting like 45 lb weights on each side and the bars on each side pull up and standing in front of it and pulling up those bars to my shoulders and then maybe have a better posture.

Best way to do a proper shrug is to stand up with the barbell in front of you (or behind you... thats for down the road..) and lift your traps to your ears. The bar should be laying against your thighs and basically drag up your shorts as you shrug. Also try to squeeze your upper back to while you are doing them. Same goes for the DB shrugs. Hold them to your side or in front of you.

Youtube some videos of guys shrugging (dorian yates, arnold, etc) and you will see how they do them. If you do them right... you will look funny. Like a turtle trying to shove its head into a shell thats too small

IRN-NML
08-08-10, 2:47 pm
Well I am thin as spaghetti but I would love to build up shoulders. I think big shoulders are the toughest looking thing.....other than the front raises and side raises do you guys know any other beginner shoulder workouts? I want to try to switch up the workouts i'm doing here and there.

First, trust me, at 19 you've got time on your side! Don't think you're not progressing because you can't see anything and don't get discouraged because a chunk of time has passed. It takes tons and tons of rock to yield just a bit of gold.

Bam is right on the shrugs. My ? for Bam is where do YOU usually grip the bar for shrugs? Also, as a fan of reverse shrugs, I'd say give them a try. The gym bodybuilder showed me his grip for these is just barely behind the thighs; bend your knees a bit & shrug straight up just like a regular shrug as Bam described.

BamBam
08-08-10, 2:50 pm
First, trust me, at 19 you've got time on your side! Don't think you're not progressing because you can't see anything and don't get discouraged because a chunk of time has passed. It takes tons and tons of rock to yield just a bit of gold.

Bam is right on the shrugs. My ? for Bam is where do YOU usually grip the bar for shrugs? Also, as a fan of reverse shrugs, I'd say give them a try. The gym bodybuilder showed me his grip for these is just barely behind the thighs; bend your knees a bit & shrug straight up just like a regular shrug as Bam described.

I agree the reverse shrug are a great exercise just wanting him to "master" the front before he tries the back because sometimes it can put some strain on the shoulders at kind of an odd angle. I love them though. Do them on a smith machine and they MURDER...

I grip the bar with my index finger on the smooth 99.9% of the time. Double overhand. Sometimes on a rare occasion I will put my thumb out from the smooth and grip from there (same as a bench grip some use).

Oxbowsky
08-08-10, 2:54 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEjHxmhMhuU
Is this a proper shrug? because I do nothing like it. I thought I was supposed to keep my arms as straight as possible and bring my shoulders up to the side of my head

IRN-NML
08-08-10, 2:57 pm
Thanks; that's pretty much where I grip as well. Have tried some close grip shrugs; fists about 2" apart in the center; takes some bar balance, but a what the h*ll different feel.

BamBam
08-08-10, 2:57 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEjHxmhMhuU
Is this a proper shrug? because I do nothing like it. I thought I was supposed to keep my arms as straight as possible and bring my shoulders up to the side of my head

Yes... that is a great example of a dumbbell shrug. Dorian is also adding a bit of a variation to his shrug by bending at the elbows at the top of the rep (if you will notice) to squeeze his upper back. But yes, if you can do them like that... your traps r going to look like mountains.

Oxbowsky
08-08-10, 2:59 pm
Oh okay lol I don't know where I got the impression I was supposed to do it as straight as possible. For a guy skinnnnnnny guy what would a good weight be I know you have to go heavy but like 25 lbs dumbbells? I can't even curl that so..

MojoMike36
08-08-10, 3:07 pm
I'm glad I understood right away the key to creating the great X Physique was all about Delts, Back, & Legs. Aka none of the "fun muscles."

MojoMike36
08-08-10, 3:10 pm
Oh okay lol I don't know where I got the impression I was supposed to do it as straight as possible. For a guy skinnnnnnny guy what would a good weight be I know you have to go heavy but like 25 lbs dumbbells? I can't even curl that so..

For a lil mini man? Try 40s. Its a start. But before that go do your deadlifts kid!

BamBam
08-08-10, 3:12 pm
Oh okay lol I don't know where I got the impression I was supposed to do it as straight as possible. For a guy skinnnnnnny guy what would a good weight be I know you have to go heavy but like 25 lbs dumbbells? I can't even curl that so..

You want good form, but you always want to do what feels right with the muscle. If you do shrugs, do as much weight as you can hold or whatever you can use with straps. It is all about feel bro.

prowrestler
08-08-10, 3:28 pm
Oh okay lol I don't know where I got the impression I was supposed to do it as straight as possible. For a guy skinnnnnnny guy what would a good weight be I know you have to go heavy but like 25 lbs dumbbells? I can't even curl that so..

whats your diet like first of all?

ontheEDGE
08-08-10, 3:44 pm
Some of the best shoulder advice I got was to not over do it, and never get sloppy especially with lateral raises. Your shoulders get worked a lot during your other workouts like chest and back, not to mention everyday life. I've been doing 9 working sets for side and front- 3 military press, 3 dumbbell press, 3 sets side lateral, then 3 rear laterals the end. Total of 12 sets for shoulders. I've it counter productive to bomb shoulders for more sets than that.

Sprint
08-08-10, 4:01 pm
Oh okay lol I don't know where I got the impression I was supposed to do it as straight as possible. For a guy skinnnnnnny guy what would a good weight be I know you have to go heavy but like 25 lbs dumbbells? I can't even curl that so..

heavy is relative. whatever's heavy for you is heavy full stop. so go as heavy as YOU can go, whilst maintaining good form.

Oxbowsky
08-08-10, 4:17 pm
For a lil mini man? Try 40s. Its a start. But before that go do your deadlifts kid!

I wouldn't say mini as i'm 6'2 but yeah i'm pretty little lol. -youtubing deadlifts-


You want good form, but you always want to do what feels right with the muscle. If you do shrugs, do as much weight as you can hold or whatever you can use with straps. It is all about feel bro.

Okay thanks bambam i'll try to make sure I do it like the pro did.


whats your diet like first of all?

Absolutely terrible! unfortunately as much as i've been trying to educate myself on exercising and how to properly gain strength and then build muscle, I lack a lot of important info I can tell on diet. I've read the diet FAQ. To answer your question though i'll give an easy walkthrough. Breakfast - bowl of cereal (frosted flakes or something similar usually) with milk in the cereal [don't usually drink anything with breakfast unless it's 1 cup of orange juice or choc. milk] and I wake up so late that i'm usually not hungry until lunch which is around 4pm and I eat a lunchmeat sandwich...usually a pretty basic one nothing specifically healthy. If i'm working this is also what I eat for dinner. After workout I have a (not sure if i'm allowed to add this in...but a protein shake) and then it depends on the day but I usually have some snacks in between my meals such as crackers and peanute butter or poptarts or whatever just stuff to get calories and then some days I have pizza for dinner. I know it's not 6 meals a day but I usually find a way to reach 2500 calories lately at first I wasn't but now I am and i've gained 4 pounds in 2 weeks, unfortunately it looks to me like it's gone to my stomach.




heavy is relative. whatever's heavy for you is heavy full stop. so go as heavy as YOU can go, whilst maintaining good form.

Will do, let's hope I can at least get that 40 in.

BamBam
08-08-10, 4:53 pm
Any help I can be man ... PM me

Legacy
08-08-10, 5:15 pm
What helped me cap my side delts and make me look wider is that I used to do up to 10 sets of side laterals first in my shoulder workout. Then I would do the presses and etc.

Damn. What did the rest of your workout look like after those 10 sets? I find it interesting cause for delts I only do about 12-14 sets. What else would you do and how many sets Antoine?

prowrestler
08-08-10, 6:33 pm
Absolutely terrible! unfortunately as much as i've been trying to educate myself on exercising and how to properly gain strength and then build muscle, I lack a lot of important info I can tell on diet. I've read the diet FAQ. To answer your question though i'll give an easy walkthrough. Breakfast - bowl of cereal (frosted flakes or something similar usually) with milk in the cereal [don't usually drink anything with breakfast unless it's 1 cup of orange juice or choc. milk] and I wake up so late that i'm usually not hungry until lunch which is around 4pm and I eat a lunchmeat sandwich...usually a pretty basic one nothing specifically healthy. If i'm working this is also what I eat for dinner. After workout I have a (not sure if i'm allowed to add this in...but a protein shake) and then it depends on the day but I usually have some snacks in between my meals such as crackers and peanute butter or poptarts or whatever just stuff to get calories and then some days I have pizza for dinner. I know it's not 6 meals a day but I usually find a way to reach 2500 calories lately at first I wasn't but now I am and i've gained 4 pounds in 2 weeks, unfortunately it looks to me like it's gone to my stomach.

ya my 100 pound girlfriend eats 2500 calories to gain weight...

hint, every single post you read about building muscle wont do ANYTHING unless you adress your diet.

-you need your bodyweight in protien (grams). ideal is 1.5x bodyweight.
- take your bodyweight x25 to get your daily calories.
- start reading the diet section of the forum. read every last article.
- at this stage in the game, you need to BLAST self education. now is the time when you really gotta start doing research and learning how muscle is built.

id like to see your entire weekly split + exercises. chances are you are fucking up if you had to youtube deadlifts.

Sprint
08-08-10, 6:47 pm
Absolutely terrible! unfortunately as much as i've been trying to educate myself on exercising and how to properly gain strength and then build muscle, I lack a lot of important info I can tell on diet. I've read the diet FAQ. To answer your question though i'll give an easy walkthrough. Breakfast - bowl of cereal (frosted flakes or something similar usually) with milk in the cereal [don't usually drink anything with breakfast unless it's 1 cup of orange juice or choc. milk] and I wake up so late that i'm usually not hungry until lunch which is around 4pm and I eat a lunchmeat sandwich...usually a pretty basic one nothing specifically healthy. If i'm working this is also what I eat for dinner. After workout I have a (not sure if i'm allowed to add this in...but a protein shake) and then it depends on the day but I usually have some snacks in between my meals such as crackers and peanute butter or poptarts or whatever just stuff to get calories and then some days I have pizza for dinner. I know it's not 6 meals a day but I usually find a way to reach 2500 calories lately at first I wasn't but now I am and i've gained 4 pounds in 2 weeks, unfortunately it looks to me like it's gone to my stomach.




Bro you need to fucking eat more! If you want size or strength, you need to eat.

You've already said, in your own words that your diet is terrible, it's not like you're blind to this. You can bust your ass in the gym, taking the advice being offered here or not, but if you're eating like a sparrow then you aint gonna be big or strong as a horse.
At best, you're limiting your own potential. At worst you'll make yourself fucking ill.

Oxbowsky
08-08-10, 8:31 pm
I'm doing workout routine #14

Yeah today I got oatmeal, wheat bread, TONS of lunch meat to pack on the sandwiches a day and bagels so I feel like if I add this stuff in i'll be taking a big step.

Sprint
08-08-10, 8:51 pm
Keep us updated as to how you're gettin on bro. We may practise some tough love at times but all criticism is intended to be constructive.

Oxbowsky
08-08-10, 10:53 pm
I know i'm thankful for the advice

prowrestler
08-09-10, 3:10 am
the lunch meats flat out suck

pricey and low quality. its cheaper to get real meat and cook it. tastes way better also.

if you need any help, PM away.