View Full Version : Mike Mentzer's Consolidation Training
arab910
09-01-10, 10:39 am
Fellas-
I'm wondering if anyone has heard of Mentzer's thoughts on consolidation training and its effectiveness...
He contends that only enough work needed to stimulate the body's growth mechanism need be done in a given workout, and anything more than that is unnecessary. From The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer- "Mike held that one set taken to the point where no additional repetitions are possible for a given muscle ("one set to failure") is all that is required to trigger the body's growth mechanism into motion."
The workout he proposes and claims allowed one of his clients to go from 160 lbs to 210 lbs in just 3 months (with a total of 12 workouts lasting a mere 2 to 4 minutes each) optimizes recovery days- anywhere between 4 and 7 between workouts...is as follows:
workout one:
1. deadlifts
2. dips
workout two:
1. squats
2. lat pulldowns
i think this topic is phenomenal as a learning tool for younger lifters, so i would appreciate some of the vets shedding light on any experience they may have in the matter.
thebalance
09-01-10, 11:23 am
I do believe people can do work uselessly. But getting good muscle with so little training is impossible imo.
Thats a great tool not just for newer upcoming bodybuilders/athletes but any one natural would def benefit from that.
Lost me at "160 - 210 pounds in 3 months"....
Regarding the one client, I'd like to throw out the phrase "pics, or it didn't happen" LOL
Fuck, I'm tryin to go from 160ish to 175 and that alone is gonna take longer than 3 months.
A lot longer...
prowrestler
09-01-10, 6:09 pm
do a normal program...
welcome to bodybuilding "gimmick" ideas.
Pizzalamp
09-01-10, 10:02 pm
i think itll work as long as you are putting your heart and soul into the workout-lifting to the point of coughing blood etc etc
C.Coronato
09-02-10, 9:29 am
lifting to the point of coughing blood etc etc
Thats a little much bro.
shizz702
09-02-10, 10:04 am
There's a lot of good to be said for Mentzer and his contributions to the field, but he got a little crazy in the end. Personally I just wouldn't be able to go that long inbetween sessions, nor would I only be able to do 2 exercises per session.
G Diesel
09-02-10, 10:30 am
I think the 4-7 days off between sessions and the extreme infrequent training is a bit of an overstatement of theory and where Mentzer got off track.
That said, what it is to truly train to failure (failure on your own + forced reps + partials + negatives) is a really devastating way to train and something very few of us have done on the regular. His training principles applied reasonably will undoubtedly be fruitful for us all, but it is a matter of balancing this approach with what works best for your goals and physiology.
Peace, G
In my early stages of training Dennis Newman put me through work outs similar to this, only with a bit more frequency/volume...I thought I was going to die, and it even made me question whether or not this game was for me..I attribute much of my development to those early days..but finding true and utter failure will test anyone's character.
I think the 4-7 days off between sessions and the extreme infrequent training is a bit of an overstatement of theory and where Mentzer got off track.
That said, what it is to truly train to failure (failure on your own + forced reps + partials + negatives) is a really devastating way to train and something
SPOT ON G..
heres my thoughts - why not slightly increase the volume, and add an exercise or two - just keep it INTENSE. Dorian Yates modified Mentzer style this way.
I really agree with Mike when he says its better to rest a day and have an EXCELLENT workout than to stick to a 'routine/day' and have a GOOD workout, your body does't know monday from thursday, but it knows when its recuperated and recovered.
Here's an old post of mine which reflects how productive Mike's CR is...
Does the consolidation routine work?
Lifter
posted on 9/3/2003 2:38:20 AM
I'd like to share my results on the Consolidation Routine back in '98 after David Staplin's prompt (Mike Mentzer linked us up to entice me to switch). These are my results from 4 weeks:
Dates 5th July 1998 - 26th July 1998
Weight: 96.5kg (212.3#) - 99kg (217.8#)
Quad: 25.4 - 25???
Calf: 16.1" - 16.4" (the hardest muscle to grow)!
Chest: 47.1/4" - 49" (the first time I reached this size)
Forearm: 12.5" - 12.6"
Bicep: 16.3" - 16.5"
Waist - 1/8th"
That's quite dramatic progress for a months work... on less than an hours total training!!!
I used the typical Consolidation Routine consisting of 3 exs/sets with a 5/5 rep tempo. As an advanced, dedicated trainee, I was bezerk with enthusiasm, rearing to go days before I got the opportunity to train again. I can't remember why I didn't remain with it other than the anxiety of waiting a week to train again.
Cole673a
09-04-10, 11:18 am
imo total bs
Thanks for that well thought out and logical reply, just another example of what Mike had to put up with when he was still alive.
As the saying goes..."no-one is as blind as he who refuses to see".
I see you are 18, my mistake, you are obviously an expert, forgive my 3 1/2 decades of training. Bhahaha
Cole673a
09-05-10, 6:32 pm
i never said i was an expert. Just stated the imo that type of training is bs, if it worked im sure the top pros would be doing that? Correct? i would think so, but man if thats what works for you, then do it, i could care less. Good luck
You can't use a blanket statement, something is BS, without evey trying it while dismissing my, and many I know (including a vast amount of Mike's 2,000+ clients) success. Here are some posts from guys I knew that it DIDN'T WORK FOR either. The first from Mike's biggest client, 285# Aubrey Francis, who was growing steadily stronger and bigger on 2 sets/exercises. The second from a terrific guy (John) who failed terribly, obviously. The last from a close-personal friend...
Hi XXXX,
It's nice to hear from you again. Off course I get doubts about training so little. Before I went over to the consolidation program I was only training once every 8 days averaging about 4 sets. After about 5 complete cycles my progress came to a halt. I then rested 10 days. When I came I was even weaker. It was not until I rested 3 weeks & came back that I was stronger. I'm now doing 2 sets once very 10 -14 day's. Deadlifts and squats are done every other leg and upper body workouts.
I've divided the workout in two, upper and lower body. e.x
workout A
Squat
Calf raises
workout B
Deadlifts
Bench press
I alternate deadlifts with back or biceps exercises & squats with leg presses or extensions and calf raises with leg curls.
As for my rep scheme I still work between 6 to 10 but if I get 8 or 9 reps on a set of an exercise I'll raise the weight at the next workout. Beside's that I try to do 100% negative's and rest-pause wherever possible just to take the intensity to another level.
I'll try to stick to this program a couple of months to see what happen's. If there's any thing else feel free to e-mail me.
best regards
Aubrey
*****
I have been using a modified form of the consolidation routine for 9 weeks now & here are the results;
Incline crunchs start 60#/25 now 110#/30
Deadlifts start 405#/6reps now 605#/5reps
Hammer military start 270/8 now 470/5
Hammer iso curl start 60#/8 now 100#(whole stack)/12
Hammer dip start 2 plates & 25 each side/6 now 5 plates/side/6 reps
7 days later
Leg press start 1080/11 now 1310/11 reps
Toe press same as above
Rev grip PD start 210/7 now 300(stack) 11
Incline press start 275/6 now 385/6
I know these seem outragous but they are true and the best part is I take no drugs (steroids) and no supplements at all so those of you who wonder" where all the clients are" I am right here, if anyone does not believe these numbers I am inviting you to come to Albuquerque and see for your self.!!
I am 5'11, 276lbs, 29 1/2" legs, 20" arms, 55" chest.
I am by no means ripped although my abs are visible, I am not posting this for any other reason than to show there are people out there who are using HD and that it does work. As for my defense of the principles of HD against the nay sayers it is just my opinion that Mike never wanted to "Convince" anyone of anything he wanted to present HD in a logical manner and it was up to the individual to accept it or not, I am not here to "CONVINCE" anyone or to be "CONVINCED" bv anyone either, I personally do not believe that I owe anyone an explantion for what I believe, & have never seen a post one on this site where anyone except one has asked to be "CONVINCED" and no matter how many posts are put up to "CONVINCE" or to prove the valid theory of HD, the nay sayer has to "DISAGREE", there comes a time when it goes from a discourse to just pure antagonism, when no matter who says what this person will disagree, so my question is why bother. I once heard a quote that seems to apply here "Don't throw your pearls to swine"!
****
I made my best, overall HIT progress on Mentzer's consolidation routine. I remember before starting the routine how skeptical I was about it; I was really surprised Mentzer offered me up such a routine as I was expecting something more similar to Heavy Duty I which came out earlier in 1993 - this was my second phone consultation with him. On any rate, I boosted my calories a bit and it worked great. I liked being able to hit every muscle in my body once every 4-7 days by just focusing on 3-4 big, compound movements.
David Hirst
___________
The consolidation routine Mentzer put me on at the time was this:
Workout 1
Squats
Pulldown
Dip
Calf Raise
Workout 2
Deadlift
Incline Press
BB Curl
Seated Calf Raise (this was exercise was my choice - he said it was fine.)
What I liked about this routine was that each muscle was stimulated more frequently, or every 4-7 days. Now, later on, he told me that it wasn't uncommon for the hips and lower back to get overtrained at some point on this program, so you could temporarily replace shrugs for deadlifts and/or leg ext for squats. I would imagine leg presses might be a suitable fixture too.
****
As for using the pros as examples... I once trained along side a Mr. Olympia, who watched me closely as I went through my 15 minute Heavy Duty workout, as much as I did him go through his lack-luster back workout. Aftwards he was kind enough to share his lunch with me in the back office. Obviously possessing super-genetics, the other part of his success laid in the shelves of drugs he had stored in the fridge.
Using the champs as examples is like comparing apples with oranges. I saw up close and personal how this champ trained for his Mr. O defense, and his efforts was on par with what I use on my warm-up sets. Us mere mortals, lacking the elite gene pool offset with hefty chemical assistance, need to train accordingly. And I can assure you, by my vast client success, it isn't half (or a 1/4 in many cases) what muscle rags or dogma would have you believe.
I wouldn't be so fast to poo-poo something you have no clue about. I underwent hypnosis mid-90's to increase my pain threshold and push my intensity levels to the limit. I can hang in there with the best of them. My average workout is 12 minutes, which is all I can handle with 700+ on squats, 600+ on deadlifts, 300+ rows, etc., yet I am still progressing after 3+ decades.
Btw, about rounding your back on them (almost stiff legged) deadlifts. You are 1still a teen, so while you are "getting away" with it now, I'd recheck your form. I have the qualifactions (Master Trainer degree) to tell you that you are risking injury and issues in latter years.
Machine
09-06-10, 10:32 am
This thread is an extremely useful tool for me to gauge the mindset of the average bodybuilding enthusiast...
Lifter - I understand and can conceptualize the advanced theory you are dealing with here...its just that the mass media, bullshit, ass-rag magazines and marketing gurus have done their job well...they have convinced mostly young and inexperienced lifters that the earth is flat.
Mike Mentzer's theory was and is maverick and visionary...I find it to be fascinating and do utilize some of it myself.
Dont interupt your thought pattern and give away prescious moments trying to convince the blind to see.
Remember...in the land of the blind...the one eyed man is king. Let them have their corrupt temple, I choose to create something where previously there was nothing.
MACHINE
Terrific post! Good to see you see it as it is, and not as uncle Joe would have us believe. The empirer truly has no clothes!!
LegendKillerJosh
09-07-10, 4:24 pm
People who don't get results from a high intensity approach like Mentzer utilized simply don't understand how intense his workouts were. It is very difficult and takes a different kind of mindset to do what he did. He would do a pre-exhaust set (such as flys before bench press) til failure, and then immediately with no rest go to the next set (bringing in the fresh triceps to assist the already fatigues pecs) and perform that set til failure. The exercises were performed very controlled and very slow (some of his reps would take up 10-20 seconds to perform) and that would be it. He believed adding any other exercises or lower intensity, lighter weight sets would force the body to delve too far into it's recovery mechanisms. He also believed that as you progress into bodybuilding, and your workouts get heavier and more intense, that more rest between workouts would be required, when a lot of people mistakenly believe that the more you train, the more workouts your body can handle. It is hard to gain a tremendous amount of strength with a Mentzer style routine, but if you do it right you can add excellent size.
That is all true, and the best part is, when you have it all dialed in, progress is as regular as night following day...which is all any of us can expect from our workouts. From my experince, and Mike's, it isn't anywhere near what bodybuilding dogma endorses. Watered down, as you must to train long, it's the ONLY way you can train that style. But hard is a whole other story, as you can't have both within the same workout, like an all-out sprint it MUST be brief.
Ok this is my first post so easy on me guys ! So the question is it enough ? 2sets every 4-7+ days between workouts .I can only speak for myself here as I am not a natural or an easy gainer ,although I have been repeatedly told I have the bone structure for a natural BB broad shoulders narrow hips only too short ha (5ft 7 ) and 6.5 inch wrists ,I have to accept that genetically this is my lot ! And to expect to reach 180lb is just a pipe dream !
I have tried EVERYTHING aside from drugs ,from high volume to HIT ,and that is where I am at the moment 2/3 exercises every 7/10 days and getting stronger bit by bit ,experience has demonstrated that that if I train more frequently I put some weight on via muscular inflammation and a constant feeling of stiffness and fatigue ,but I don't get any stronger ,sometimes quite the opposite .
A good question to ask might be to say how many hours do I need to get a great tan ! For albinos no sun is too much ,most Caucasians with caution a half hour or so .I Have a friend from Ghana and she can lie in the full sun all day no problem .so to some degree I have found that BB is more about stress tolerance to exercise and the recovery and over compensation of the same .
The easy way to find out is if you have stopped all progress ,is to take a break of say two weeks and start with the consolidation routine of two exercises ,with the exercises you are familiar with ( new exercises will require some skill learning and will give you a false reading ) then start at 4 days between A & B workout squat/chin then dead lift + dip .If you get stronger and inevitably bigger that's the right volume and frequency if not stick a day off in ,and so on .
I accidentally came across this in 1991 when job issues prevented me from working out more than once a week ,in 6 weeks my squat went from 300llb for 6 to 400lb for 4 ! No one was more surprised than me! Fortunately I habitually keep records and quickly saw why ( other than adding extra days off ) I didn't fully understand like Mike Mentzer imploring trainees to respect the concept of proper recovery ,as even then the BB world minimum workout frequency was twice a week .I applied the logic to the rest of my routine although I still had 5/6 exercises which when I look back was still overdoing it . In the mid 2000s I dropped to 3 each workout then to 2. And that's where I am at the moment ,with micromanaging the increases in weight.
I have heard and seen people complain over the "you'll get a power lifters physique" but really genetically it's what they would have got on any routine .I will never get a powerlifters build yet I use all powerlifting movements ! It's really down to how your genes will express themselves not to the routine that they follow . If you are still not growing ( and this is the touch one to accept ! ) you may have reached your limit ! It has to happen sometime ! But don't stop training because there are so many benefits to resistance training ,for instance, got a few strange double takes in manchester over the weekend folks seeing this grey haired guy running at full pelt up the railway station staircase with a full rucksack (60litres) ! I hadn't trained on squats for 10 days ,to be honest if I had squatted 4 days previously I would have crawled up like any one else! So the extra days off helped me to use what I had built ,quite often less can let you do more .
Hope that helps .
Dave (smiffy)
P Diesel
08-26-14, 9:22 am
Thats a little much bro.
hahaha
Jay Nera
08-28-14, 8:06 pm
This thread is an extremely useful tool for me to gauge the mindset of the average bodybuilding enthusiast...
Lifter - I understand and can conceptualize the advanced theory you are dealing with here...its just that the mass media, bullshit, ass-rag magazines and marketing gurus have done their job well...they have convinced mostly young and inexperienced lifters that the earth is flat.
Mike Mentzer's theory was and is maverick and visionary...I find it to be fascinating and do utilize some of it myself.
Dont interupt your thought pattern and give away prescious moments trying to convince the blind to see.
Remember...in the land of the blind...the one eyed man is king. Let them have their corrupt temple, I choose to create something where previously there was nothing.
MACHINE
THANK YOU. I was getting upset at this thread. I don't even think many people understand what that ONE SET under Mentzer's protocols would be like…try it folks!!
Well said Machine.
Brandon Lilly
08-28-14, 8:32 pm
THANK YOU. I was getting upset at this thread. I don't even think many people understand what that ONE SET under Mentzer's protocols would be like…try it folks!!
Well said Machine.
I was actually coached by some of Mike's direct staff when I was bodybuilding and it was brutal. Mentzer is still my favorite bodybuilder of all time for his physique and mind.
jakesimkins
09-04-14, 8:51 pm
The best way that one can truly do this is by taking the basic principles of it and adapting it to you personally. The human body was not designed for that type of training. But that being said it can use as a base for growth...
iamthemacattack
09-05-14, 5:28 am
I've read a couple of Mike's books and they are very interesting. He can be quite an aggressive author - questioning why anyone would not think the same way as him, when his methods obviously work - his physique spoke for itself.
Personally I think there are a lot of points that can be taken from his methods and applied to your own training.
I do two warm up sets and then one set which is heavy to failure. And will only do 3-4 exercises depending on which body part I am training. I think over training can be a big problem and HIT workouts definitely work for me.
G Diesel
09-05-14, 9:02 am
People who don't get results from a high intensity approach like Mentzer utilized simply don't understand how intense his workouts were. It is very difficult and takes a different kind of mindset to do what he did. He would do a pre-exhaust set (such as flys before bench press) til failure, and then immediately with no rest go to the next set (bringing in the fresh triceps to assist the already fatigues pecs) and perform that set til failure. The exercises were performed very controlled and very slow (some of his reps would take up 10-20 seconds to perform) and that would be it. He believed adding any other exercises or lower intensity, lighter weight sets would force the body to delve too far into it's recovery mechanisms. He also believed that as you progress into bodybuilding, and your workouts get heavier and more intense, that more rest between workouts would be required, when a lot of people mistakenly believe that the more you train, the more workouts your body can handle. It is hard to gain a tremendous amount of strength with a Mentzer style routine, but if you do it right you can add excellent size.
Good post. Much truth here.
There is so much good to be ascertained from the Mentzer/Arthur Jones/Yates/Trevor Smith philosophy of training.
I think the real key is to truly apply maximum intensity to these workouts and then maximize recovery factors in between--food (muchos calories), rest, supps. This takes some planning and likely experience or guidance.
I think only training 12 times in 3 months is a bit of an overstatement and would really suck from the perspective of those who truly love to train. That said, if you training in this style M, W, F with T, T, S, S off in between, you could probably make dramatic gains in 3 months, like I said before, assuming you were eating and resting enough to recover. It would likely be an awesome strategy for a college or high school kid.
Peace, G
Fellas-
I'm wondering if anyone has heard of Mentzer's thoughts on consolidation training and its effectiveness...
He contends that only enough work needed to stimulate the body's growth mechanism need be done in a given workout, and anything more than that is unnecessary. From The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer- "Mike held that one set taken to the point where no additional repetitions are possible for a given muscle ("one set to failure") is all that is required to trigger the body's growth mechanism into motion."
The workout he proposes and claims allowed one of his clients to go from 160 lbs to 210 lbs in just 3 months (with a total of 12 workouts lasting a mere 2 to 4 minutes each) optimizes recovery days- anywhere between 4 and 7 between workouts...is as follows:
workout one:
1. deadlifts
2. dips
workout two:
1. squats
2. lat pulldowns
i think this topic is phenomenal as a learning tool for younger lifters, so i would appreciate some of the vets shedding light on any experience they may have in the matter.
Honestly, someone putting on 50lbs. of muscle in 3 months by only doing 2 sets of 2 exercises per week is the greatest bullshit I´ve ever heard.
Even greater than the fatbelt that is supposed to give you a smaller waist simply by wearing it all day...
The "client" that Mentzer is referring to was Casey Viator (a competitive and somewhat successful bodybuilder)and while the claim is true that Viator put on about 60+ lbs in a short period, there is a lot more to the story. Here is a brief exert from Viator about what has been called "The Colorado Experiment"
"I had an accident and had gotten gangrene in my hand and had to quit training for six months," he said. "My weight went down to 190. Mr. Jones said, 'Go down, see how far you can get.' I went down to 168; I was really skinny. I was on 500 calories a day." Jones then brought Viator from the Nautilus headquarters in Florida to Colorado, where - under medical supervision - "they caged me, force fed me, trained me like an animal." Despite problems acclimating to the Colorado high country, Casey gained 45 pounds in 28 days (it was actually 63 pounds, he lost bodyfat).
(Mr. Jones is Arthur Jones, founder of Nautilus)
I just wanted to provide some more background to the claim. I think most people, when hearing the claim, naturally think that an "average joe" gained 60 lbs of muscle in a month(or 3). In reality, it was an already superior athlete/bodybuilder, who became unable to train and then was strongly encouraged to continue losing weight in order to see how quickly he could gain it back. Not exactly the same thing.
Regardless if Viator had already possessed a superior physique, that kind of progress is remarkable! I'm not passing judgement on the type of training Jones/Mentzer advocated. I'm just trying to provide some additional background to the claims.
Jay Nera
10-30-14, 8:53 pm
I was actually coached by some of Mike's direct staff when I was bodybuilding and it was brutal. Mentzer is still my favorite bodybuilder of all time for his physique and mind.
Yeah, he definitely had one of the best physiques and as an objectivist I obviously agree that he was of sound mind on many topics.
Jay Nera
10-30-14, 8:55 pm
I was actually coached by some of Mike's direct staff when I was bodybuilding and it was brutal. Mentzer is still my favorite bodybuilder of all time for his physique and mind.
BRANDON. When were you bodybuilding? I heard that you had aspirations of bodybuilding but I did not know that you had previous to powerlifting. Post a throwback pic on your insta.
As for Mike's Consolidation Routine. Mike enticed me--over a month--to make the switch late 90's. These are my results from 4 weeks:
Dates 5th July 1998 - 26th July 1998
Weight: 96.5kg (212.3#) - 99kg (217.8#)
Quad: 25.4 - 25? (I suspect fat loss)
Calf: 16.1" - 16.4" (the hardest muscle to grow)!
Chest: 47.1/4" - 49"
Forearm: 12.5" - 12.6"
Bicep: 16.3" - 16.5"
Waist: - 1/8th"
That's quite dramatic progress for a months work... on less than an hours total training!!!
I used the typical Consolidation Routine of 3 exs/sets with a 5/5 rep tempo. As an advanced trainee, I was bezerk with enthusiasm, rearing to go days before I got the opportunity to train again. I can't remember why I didn't remain with it other than the anxiety of waiting a week to train again.
As good as my CR gains were, in comparison my MCT (Maximum Contraction Training) gains were even better...
MCT Gains * 6 sets full-body once weekly
28/10/03 - 5/11/03 (2 weeks)
Weight +1.5kg
Quad +1/4"
Calf +1/4"
Chest +1 1/2"
Arm +1/8"
Forearm +2/8"
Waist -2/8"
For those who PM'd me, for some reason the administrator has disabled my messages!? If you care to message me, I am always up to discuss Mike and Heavy Duty, then feel free via... lifter@netspace.net.au
Mentzer's Consolidation Routine is how i got started when i was about 15/16, I did nothing else for 2 years. I then met Dorian Yates and had a fairly long conversation with him about Mentzer; DY opinion was that the principle of training to failure is sound but that more volume is necessary.
Remember that it's a consolidation routine for lifters to break through plateaus, its not meant to be your bread and butter.