PDA

View Full Version : Training to Failure



Fricano
11-01-10, 6:38 pm
So I know how many sets I want to do and I know the rep scheme but when do I take a set to failure? I looking for opinions on training theory. Do you take every set to failure or the last set or is there some other combination? Im sure the answer varies also on what kind of program your on. So on if you on a high volume vs. low volume and high intensity vs. low intensity. What is the consensus?

Mauricio
11-01-10, 8:24 pm
I know how many sets I want to do and I know the rep scheme
it's often hard to change the mind of someone who's already figured things out on his/her own. the consensus is (not by my opinion) everybody's different but we should all be doing what the biggest guys are doing at the gym, which means a lot of the folks in here do high volume training. they also recommend to change up your routine every now and then, to create muscle confusion and stimulate new growth or use varying techniques like drop sets, giant sets, etc. of course if you want a taste of h.i.t. all you have to do is look it up, figure things on your own and see what's more logical to you.

Cellardweller
11-01-10, 9:36 pm
If your rep scheme is to do a set of 10 then you should fail at 10. If you're getting 12 when you want to hit 10 then you need to up the weight. If you're shooting for 10 and fail at 9, then you're more on track. If by failure you mean just grabbing a bar and just going ape shit for as many reps as you can, then just do it. Sprint and I have been doing Bam Bam's 100 reps with a naked olympic bar once a week. Going to failure can mean different things.

JasonG
11-02-10, 12:50 am
I agree there's different degrees of failure. At the most basic level it's when you can't complete another rep on your own. Personally after I'm warmed up I don't stop until I get to this point of failure or beyond. If I'm shooting for 10 reps and can get more I'll do more then record that in my log book and adjust the next set and note for the next workout as well. Some do four sets of 10 at the same weight for all working sets. If I get 10 on one set I'm not gonna get 10 on my next set at the same weight.

Anthony.C
11-03-10, 5:16 pm
Training to failure is overplayed IMO.

pushin weight
11-03-10, 6:07 pm
Failure...its whats for dinner.You better order up a serving of it if you want to grow.

ronald1919
11-03-10, 6:22 pm
Failure is not only dangerous but actually hinders strenght gain and wrecks havoc on your cns. If you insist on using it because your favourite pro swears by it then you can throw it at the end of your last set for the workout...

pushin weight
11-03-10, 6:50 pm
I suggest watching just about any video of any serious bodybuilder or aspiring bodybuilder and tell me there not training to failure most of the time.For example, just watch the video on this forumn of house training shoulders,or take a look at dorian yates new video series on bb.com,or watch arnold and lou train on youtube.

ronald1919
11-03-10, 7:27 pm
These are "advanced" bodybuilders have already built a very strong base before venturing with failure training. you want to emulate them maybe you should start mixing some chemicals too...

Tron
11-03-10, 7:36 pm
The best answer I could give is vary it. Adaptation is your body's best asset/hindrance. I would make sure you cover the basics for enough time before varying anything.

An advanced body builder is not necessarily somebody with a little special juice... It's just somebody with enough experience with quality work outs.

pushin weight
11-03-10, 7:42 pm
These are "advanced" bodybuilders have already built a very strong base before venturing with failure training. you want to emulate them maybe you should start mixing some chemicals too...

Thats a fuckin ridiculous response my friend.You got no business coming in here and insinuating that type of horseshit about people you dont know.

ronald1919
11-03-10, 9:24 pm
lol thats not even debatable....but whatever to each his own i guess

Anthony.C
11-03-10, 9:42 pm
I suggest watching just about any video of any serious bodybuilder or aspiring bodybuilder and tell me there not training to failure most of the time.For example, just watch the video on this forumn of house training shoulders,or take a look at dorian yates new video series on bb.com,or watch arnold and lou train on youtube.

Comparing a body builder to who under some other substances and has the ability to train to failure every workout and still recover good is not the best comparison.

People think they have to train to failure on every single set. If your progressing with weight/reps/and or sets there really is no need to train to failure every single time. Is it good now and then? Yea it is but simply doing it every session is over played.

Anthony.C
11-03-10, 9:46 pm
edit: excuse the double post

SpankyC
11-03-10, 10:02 pm
Failure is not only dangerous but actually hinders strenght gain and wrecks havoc on your cns. If you insist on using it because your favourite pro swears by it then you can throw it at the end of your last set for the workout...

So basically you half-ass your works and believe in "scientific studies" ........you people make me sick!

Tron
11-03-10, 10:07 pm
So basically you half-ass your works and believe in "scientific studies" ........you people make me sick!

What's with the discontent? I don't think that's what he's saying...

Varying the intensity should always be a key to a lifter's regiment... Nobody can go balls to the wall all the time or you'll hit the wall and break. That's just common sense.

Mauricio
11-03-10, 10:43 pm
calm down brothers, insults and pointing fingers is never the answer specially in the iron family. lots of guys have a valid point, you do need to progressively lift heavier weights, either by volume training or h.i.t. you pick your poison. just keep in mind that muscular failure should be achieved once per exercise and you move on, i think that's where guys look at it the wrong way: you DON'T do 10-15 sets to failure, you just do 3-4 at most per body part. another false conclusion that most people reach is: shit you train to failure every workout you're gonna hit a wall in no time, but in fact most h.i.t. routines call for plenty of recovery and 1 week off every 6-8 weeks. now, why is training to failure so beneficial? well because it's the best way to lift the heaviest weight you can in a controlled manner which is directly related to muscle growth and that's where the dozens of studies come into play: you don't build muscle by moving a weight you can perform 12-20 sets with, your body can already handle that load. now, a question to the volume guys, how long has it been since you took a break or cared to read up on how hormones force the body into a catabolic state after 30-40min of working out? can you fit your routine in that time frame?.

shizz702
11-04-10, 12:01 am
Dogmatism is futile. Anyone that is staunch on pro failure, or pro not failure is just playing themself. Both have their uses.

Cellardweller
11-04-10, 5:12 am
When you start an exercise, like say bench press, you start off with a couple of warm up sets of progressively heavier weights that you do not take to failure. Then you do 2-3 working sets that you do take to failure, either of progressively heavier weight or say your body weight for as many as you can get. If you don't give it your all, how do you make progress? Not going to failure when training for strength is kinda like saying walking will make you a great sprinter.

Mauricio
11-04-10, 6:48 am
Not going to failure when training for strength is kinda like saying walking will make you a great sprinter.
great point bro. the key word is strength.

felipelpr
11-04-10, 6:58 am
nobody is saying that we should train to failure in about 20 reps
if you do not failure in 9, 10, 11, 12 reps, you are not pushing yourself as you should.

Anthony.C
11-04-10, 11:56 am
So basically you half-ass your works and believe in "scientific studies" ........you people make me sick!

Ignorance is bliss. Learn to evaluate one's statement before sounding idiotic.

JasonG
11-04-10, 2:12 pm
nobody is saying that we should train to failure in about 20 reps
if you do not failure in 9, 10, 11, 12 reps, you are not pushing yourself as you should.

I agree partially but I don't discount certain rep ranges as worthless either. Just did 100 rep sets of leg press last week and it was insane. Squated afterwards. I never did it this way and I'm sure I made cause for an adaption to take place for this week.

Pointed in general to this thread. I'm sick and tired of people saying things have to be done a certain way. Some DC and Hit guys will say it's the only way for example. If something works for you great, but it's not the only way.

Cellardweller
11-04-10, 6:12 pm
If something works for you great, but it's not the only way.

Sometimes I feel like there is no answer to anyone's question. It always comes down to this.

machineman
11-04-10, 6:49 pm
nobody is saying that we should train to failure in about 20 reps
if you do not failure in 9, 10, 11, 12 reps, you are not pushing yourself as you should.

This is not necessarily true. I don't do 9, 10, 11 or 12 rep sets! I don't go to max each workout either. So, am I cheating myself? No. I feel that for me, and to obtain the goals I have set, I lift the way I need to in order to reach those goals. Is my rep and set scheme for everyone? No. Your reps and sets will be determined by what your goals are. But making such statements as the one above and the one Spanky C posted are not doing anyone any good. Just like I wouldn't be doing someone that is into bodybuilding any good by saying they need to do 6 sets of 2. My workout is not geared toward them and their workout is not geared toward me. The first response to the OP should have been asking "What are your goals?"

Fricano
11-04-10, 10:11 pm
Sprinters dont go to failure its actually the marathon runners who usually cant take another step after the race is over.

Machine
11-04-10, 10:15 pm
This is not a black or white issue. The real question is not "should I apply training to failure" or "is it wrong to apply training to failure in my arsenal"

the real question is when to apply this technique, and how long to attempt to employ this tactic.

1.) Let the calaories set the stage - avoid applying this advanced training technique during times of caloric restriction.

2.) Consider the duration of strain - I can be massive, extremely developed, extremely strong, extremely cut, extremely fat, extremely athletic etc...but I cannot be all those things at the same time and you cannot either.

Employ advanced training techniques sparingly and do not employ them as the foundation of your training program as this tempo cannot be sustained effectively.

MACHINE

BB-J
11-04-10, 10:24 pm
If you don't give it your all, how do you make progress? Not going to failure when training for strength is kinda like saying walking will make you a great sprinter.

I agree.

When strength training/mass building I would be using failure as a guide to the end of your set. However, in saying that, just because you might do 16 reps on an exercise before failure doesnt mean you should.. if your looking to build size/mass then you should still be sticking to your rep range i.e. 8 reps and just upping the weight accordingly until you fail at that 8th rep or before that 8th rep. If you up the weight too much, you will obviously fail after only a few reps, if you lower the reps, its gonna take longer to fatigue i.e. endurance. So when looking for mass/size I wouldn't be pushing towards an endurance end of the scale.. i'd be looking to fail between 8-12 reps with a weight thats 80% of your ORM (One Rep Max).

Deathride
11-05-10, 1:12 am
IMO (which isn't worth much but still) this is a question of definition. PUSHING yourself is required in every single workout you do. If you don't try and be better than last time, you won't progress. But failure?

For example....on my last 5/3/1 set, I go to 'failure'. For me, without spotters, this is the last rep I can get with good form and still rerack the weight comfortably without dropping 220lb on my face. I could possibly make one more but I don't risk it. Does this make me a bad person, does this mean I'm going to not meet my goals? No. I am training intelligently to achieve my long-term ambitions. Going until you are unconscious on one day will hinder your next workouts and make you weaker in the long run.

For this reason, I only do drop sets when i'm feeling especially energetic and know I can go for it and recover enough to be ready for tomorrow and even then very rarely. As a powerlifter, my failure is based on the heaviest weight....if my lift is red lighted, it doesn't count if I then yell STRIP and perform a further 14 reps of varying weights until I'm escorted from the platform! HOWEVER, it's all good for the cause and ALL techniques can be used by ALL strength athletes at some point.

Now....what was the original question? :-D

JasonG
11-05-10, 2:21 pm
Deathride to me that is touching positive failure when you can't complete another rep at said weight. Go for another and your going beyond requiring a forced rep. I imagine people define failure differently.

Cellardweller
11-05-10, 3:49 pm
Deathride to me that is touching positive failure when you can't complete another rep at said weight. Go for another and your going beyond requiring a forced rep. I imagine people define failure differently.

Sounds like a pretty good definition to me. FAILURE: when you can't perform another unaided rep on your own. FORCED REP: when a spotter assists any and all reps after the lifter has reached failure on his/her own.

JasonG
11-05-10, 9:11 pm
Sounds like a pretty good definition to me. FAILURE: when you can't perform another unaided rep on your own. FORCED REP: when a spotter assists any and all reps after the lifter has reached failure on his/her own.

That's how I see it. Now if the lift is safe (ie something that isn't going to crush you) to fail when you can't complete the rep, say with db's and you can't complete the 10th rep but get it halfway I say I failed at 9. Even if I have a partner and get 3 more forced I record 9 in my log book. I guess it's a personal thing but that's how I'm thinking when training to positive failure. When I'm warmed up I try and take every set to this point. I recover in time for my next workout and I'm progressing so when I'm told this is a bad thing and I should have just stopped at 8 I have to disagree. When I'm no longer growing I'll listen to other people and try something different.

felipelpr
11-06-10, 9:08 am
This is not necessarily true. I don't do 9, 10, 11 or 12 rep sets! I don't go to max each workout either. So, am I cheating myself? No. I feel that for me, and to obtain the goals I have set, I lift the way I need to in order to reach those goals. Is my rep and set scheme for everyone? No. Your reps and sets will be determined by what your goals are. But making such statements as the one above and the one Spanky C posted are not doing anyone any good. Just like I wouldn't be doing someone that is into bodybuilding any good by saying they need to do 6 sets of 2. My workout is not geared toward them and their workout is not geared toward me. The first response to the OP should have been asking "What are your goals?"

Yes! I didn't make myself clear! I mean... you set a goal of reps, you have to almost failure on ur last reps, otherwise you're not pushing yourself to the limit. That's what I believe.
I see a lot of peple doing relatively easy 10 reps. that's not right!

machineman
11-06-10, 10:59 am
Yes! I didn't make myself clear! I mean... you set a goal of reps, you have to almost failure on ur last reps, otherwise you're not pushing yourself to the limit. That's what I believe.
I see a lot of peple doing relatively easy 10 reps. that's not right!

If you take yourself to failure every set, every exercise each time you lift, you are taxing the crap out of your CNS. I am not saying that failure training doesn't have it's place, but saying that if you are not at failure or "almost" there, you are not pushing yourself. The training protocol I use for bench has me using at most 85% of 1RM. I am not at failure at anytime unless I throw in a drop set. If I were to push my self to failure every time I stepped in the gym, I would get burnt out within a month. That is just the way it is. You can only tax your CNS like that for so long before you get sick, get sick of lifting or get injured.

SpankyC
11-06-10, 8:31 pm
Ignorance is bliss. Learn to evaluate one's statement before sounding idiotic.

Lebron James is the best player in the NBA.

ironshaolin
11-06-10, 8:49 pm
When you start an exercise, like say bench press, you start off with a couple of warm up sets of progressively heavier weights that you do not take to failure. Then you do 2-3 working sets that you do take to failure, either of progressively heavier weight or say your body weight for as many as you can get. If you don't give it your all, how do you make progress? Not going to failure when training for strength is kinda like saying walking will make you a great sprinter.

I gotta disagree with that. Just because you're not taking a set to FAILURE, doesn't mean you aren't training HARD. Look at a great program like Jim Wendler's 5/3/1. The 1st week, you take 65, 75, and 85 percent of your 1rep max and do 5 reps. second, do 70, 80, and 90% for 3 reps. With those sets, yes, you certainly probably could've done more reps at each weight, yet you don't. That doesn't mean it doesn't feel heavy, and you don't work hard. But people see tremendous strength progress, without ever going higher than 95% for 1 rep. There's more ways to work hard than just repping a weight till you can't lift it. another is the SPEED a bar moves. Some coaches believe its the FORCE applied to the bar, more than the weight. By lifting the weight as fast as possible, you engage more fast twitch muscle fibers which have the most potential for growth. Once you stop being able to move the bar explosively, your fast twitch muscle fibers are taken out. While you can still get another rep or 2, basically they're moving slow and using mainly slow twitch fibers. What this really does is just cut into recovery time. I've personally found that by doing my sets with as much power as possible, but stopping before true failure, it allows a faster recovery, and less just soreness, which allows me to hit the weights again sooner. This is also working for many other people out there. Sometimes, less is more. By doing more quality reps, and stopping when the bar slows instead of failure, you can come back sooner and add weight sooner. It also isn't as draining on the CNS.

Mauricio
11-06-10, 8:56 pm
If you take yourself to failure every set, every exercise each time you lift, you are taxing the crap out of your CNS..
it's already been stated, train to failure once per exercise for a maximum of 4 exercises per muscle group and even that's a lot 3 is plenty. what's wrong with training hard for 4-6 weeks and then taking a week off? volume guys don't even take breaks for years. train for strength, not endurance. oh and i don't think using sprinters and marathon runners as examples is good, the former is more of a powerlifter and the latter a yoga instructor.

Cellardweller
11-07-10, 6:39 pm
I'm not saying training to failure is the only way to train. But traing to failure is the topic of this thread. There's lots of ways to fry out your muscles. Isometrics is another way. How many of us hold the weight up for a count on shoulder laterals or leg extensions? That's another way to get a nasty burn going without going to failure.

Deathride
11-07-10, 8:01 pm
Deathride to me that is touching positive failure when you can't complete another rep at said weight. Go for another and your going beyond requiring a forced rep. I imagine people define failure differently.

See, to me failure is that last rep that you have to force and grind out and aren't sure if you're going to get it or not. And I train without spotters alone so can't do that. So in theory, all my sets have one last rep that I could get if I went for it.....so not quite failure but I take your point.

JasonG
11-07-10, 9:51 pm
See, to me failure is that last rep that you have to force and grind out and aren't sure if you're going to get it or not. And I train without spotters alone so can't do that. So in theory, all my sets have one last rep that I could get if I went for it.....so not quite failure but I take your point.

Yeah I agree. I don't either most of the time so some lifts I can't do that either.

cfail
11-08-10, 7:36 pm
I have been doin 5 sets on major workouts, with the 5th set being equal to or less than the 1st set with reps to failure. For instance, on chest day, 5 sets incline barbell, 5 sets incline dumbbell, 5 sets decline, and finish up with 3 sets of cable cross-overs. The 5th set being a drop set has made a huge difference in my physique, u just dont want to do it on every exercise.

prowrestler
11-09-10, 3:46 am
who cares?

get big, get strong, insert protien and calories.

learn what works by spending years under the bar...god damn this shit really isnt hard

Tron
11-09-10, 7:41 pm
who cares?

get big, get strong, insert protien and calories.

learn what works by spending years under the bar...god damn this shit really isnt hard

Couldn't put it any simpler.

cfail
02-02-11, 12:54 am
Maybe some of the people reading this care.