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DEADn
01-27-12, 3:59 pm
I have the above dilemma. Up until now I have simply weightlifted or maybe you can call it bodybuilding without try to sculpt and chisel myself. I am getting myself back into weightlifting and I have this dilemma. I don't necessarily care to be able to lift 800lbs in a deadlift or even squat that much. Doesn't mean much to me. However, I do want to get strong with some chisel in there but I don't want to spent alot of time on isolation exercises as you would do in bodybuilding.

At the moment I am doing rest pause lifting aka DC training and I find myself wanting to focus more on core lifts for strength as well as size. I know powerlifting focuses on this as well but the powerlifting routines have enticed me, probably because I am used to more bodybuilding exercises. What do I do about this? Bodybuilding routines look simpler to me than powerlifting routines that I have seen. The latest one I have looked into is the 5,3,1 routine and I understand half of it, I think.

I have noticed that more often than not that a majority of powerliftings seem to be big and fat with muscle and strength in there-somewhere. I do see the occasional powerlifter who is more cut yet very strong and with some good size as well. What is the difference between the 'fat' ones and the 'cut' ones when it comes to diet?

I am 6'1" around 215lbs. My BF is around 28% and most of that hangs around my stomach region.
Does bodybuilding require more nutrients than powerlifting in order to build strength and muscle or is it about the same?

I understand that powerlifting is all about working ones way up to lifting the max amount for one rep. While that is fun and a challenge that isn't my main goal. Yeah, I would like to see my weights go up but My ultimate goal is from size and strength. Do I stay with the bodybuilding scene or should I do powerlifting and if so what is the recommendation? btw, I usually lift at home, I have an ironmaster half rack because I workout alone. At the moment I am focusing myself on the 3 core lifts as well as the military press for the shoulders while being careful of my neck. I suffered a cervical hernia in my neck 2 years ago. I got it from doing barbell curls and cheating a bit in rocking backward.

DEADn

Aggression
01-27-12, 4:11 pm
This is actually a great topic. I'll answer based on my own outlook ...

There are some jacked up powerlifters and there are some fat powerlifters. It all comes down to diet. Hate to say it, but a lot of powerlifters use that title as an excuse to eat whatever they want while saying, 'Its ok, I'm a powerlifter'. They eat a bodybuilder type diet with a boatload of junk surrounding it. Will the excess junk make you stronger? Sure. But it won't make you look good.

Then you have guys like Stan Efferding and our own Sam Byrd. They compete in both sports; bodybuilding and powerlifting. So they're jacked and shredded while being strong as hell. Sam Byrd competed in a bodybuilding show in late 2011 and then broke a record with a 762lb raw squat this past weekend. A true freak, in every sense of the world. So being a powerlifter doesn't necessarily mean you have to be fat and out of shape. You can easily eat a bodybuilder diet while powerlifting and just incorporate more carbs around certain workouts to help refuel and recover.

As far as workouts go, you can do something like a 5/3/1, which is geared towards focusing on max strength in the main lifts as well as overall physique. That may be your best bet. If you want more information on it, let me know and I'll help. I used that for a while. In the 2nd edition of that manual, they have workouts based on what your goals are; strength, mass, or cuts/conditioning. The rep ranges and accessory work are tailored to fit your needs.

greek91
01-27-12, 5:41 pm
I was in the same boat about a year and a half ago and 531 worked best. The main lifts get you strong but after that you can tweak the program to do anything you want. Just the past few months I've gained ten pounds while getting stronger. you can even split it up so that military press is a shoulder day, deads a back day, bench a chest day, and squat as your leg day, like a bodybuilding split. Only thing thats missing is arms. The program's not all about powerlifting, more just being bigger, stronger, more athletic, and better conditioned. Jim Wendler starts the book out saying he came up with 531 BECAUSE he was tired of being a fat powerlifter. hope this helps.

DEADn
01-27-12, 8:19 pm
I was in the same boat about a year and a half ago and 531 worked best. The main lifts get you strong but after that you can tweak the program to do anything you want. Just the past few months I've gained ten pounds while getting stronger. you can even split it up so that military press is a shoulder day, deads a back day, bench a chest day, and squat as your leg day, like a bodybuilding split. Only thing thats missing is arms. The program's not all about powerlifting, more just being bigger, stronger, more athletic, and better conditioned. Jim Wendler starts the book out saying he came up with 531 BECAUSE he was tired of being a fat powerlifter. hope this helps.

This is something I have actually thought about. I think the reason I bring this up is that being that I am getting back into weightlifting mode and my muscle memory is coming back I want to focus on the core lifts with only little emphasis on the isolation lifts. I know powerlifting focuses on this and I thought maybe powerlifting could help me bring this strengths up for me. Yet then when I looked at a few routines I was trying to figure out the layout of them because they are different from bodybuildng and have a different scheme.

DEADn
01-27-12, 8:23 pm
This is actually a great topic. I'll answer based on my own outlook ...

There are some jacked up powerlifters and there are some fat powerlifters. It all comes down to diet. Hate to say it, but a lot of powerlifters use that title as an excuse to eat whatever they want while saying, 'Its ok, I'm a powerlifter'. They eat a bodybuilder type diet with a boatload of junk surrounding it. Will the excess junk make you stronger? Sure. But it won't make you look good.

Then you have guys like Stan Efferding and our own Sam Byrd. They compete in both sports; bodybuilding and powerlifting. So they're jacked and shredded while being strong as hell. Sam Byrd competed in a bodybuilding show in late 2011 and then broke a record with a 762lb raw squat this past weekend. A true freak, in every sense of the world. So being a powerlifter doesn't necessarily mean you have to be fat and out of shape. You can easily eat a bodybuilder diet while powerlifting and just incorporate more carbs around certain workouts to help refuel and recover.

As far as workouts go, you can do something like a 5/3/1, which is geared towards focusing on max strength in the main lifts as well as overall physique. That may be your best bet. If you want more information on it, let me know and I'll help. I used that for a while. In the 2nd edition of that manual, they have workouts based on what your goals are; strength, mass, or cuts/conditioning. The rep ranges and accessory work are tailored to fit your needs.

Gosh, I am not sure what to say in regards to your post. Especially in dealing with the 5/3/1 method. I have seen variations? of it and I think without reading the book it doesn't quite make alot of sense to me. I know this, I do need some conditioning because my job is a sit down job for 10 hours a day so I get no help at work with exercise. I need to kill some BF but I also want my strength to get back up. Muscle memory is a big help in this department. I did a workout tonight, I usually to rest pause, and through it all I focused on form as well and pushing it all for the max strength. My deadlift is really coming along. I did 220lbs for 8 reps and probably could have squeezed out 2-3 more but I wanted to be careful of it. I concentrated on the lifting though instead of just counting it out.

Dave TapouT
01-28-12, 1:06 am
who says you cant do both?

IronWilson
01-28-12, 1:56 pm
Right now, I am doing a program called The Juggernaut Method. Google it. It focuses on the main lifts and develops strength, like 5/3/1, except that in this program, you don't do singles. That is what I like about it was that it is higher volume than 5/3/1 but still develops strength. So the low reps in the main lifts develop strength, and the higher reps and assistance lifts will get you size.

Cellardweller
01-28-12, 5:28 pm
I do both. I do 5/3/1 on all my big lifts then continue to nail the body part for the rest of the workout. I don't do chest for example, then hit accessory work like lats and tris. My split is chest and bis, legs, shoulder and tris and then back.

DEADn
01-28-12, 8:03 pm
Right now, I am doing a program called The Juggernaut Method. Google it. It focuses on the main lifts and develops strength, like 5/3/1, except that in this program, you don't do singles. That is what I like about it was that it is higher volume than 5/3/1 but still develops strength. So the low reps in the main lifts develop strength, and the higher reps and assistance lifts will get you size.

Hmmm, now that is indeed interesting. I will look into that. Although it would be fun to see what my one rep max is I am not totall interesting in hitting those PR's like that as in powerlifting. I do like doing a few reps for PR's but also growing. I will check that out.

My workout yesterday was intense. I was very focused in it and today I am not very sore. I have a subtle burn going on in different parts but it feels good. I am concentrating on staying consistent right now and building myself up back to bigger weights. I did a deadlift of 220lbs for 8 reps. Might have been able to do a few more but I stopped at 8. I focused on form through it. I also had a incline focusing on form down to my chest. It is a weak spot for me. I normally do rest pause- do a set to failure and then rest for a minute or less and do another set to failure and then do a 3rd set. DC training it what it is but I call it rest pause because it isn't fundamental DC training.

DEADn
01-29-12, 4:40 pm
I do both. I do 5/3/1 on all my big lifts then continue to nail the body part for the rest of the workout. I don't do chest for example, then hit accessory work like lats and tris. My split is chest and bis, legs, shoulder and tris and then back.

I was browsing your training circle getting a feel for your workout. I see you do alot of lower rep workouts with alot of sets. Does it ever get annoying having to change weights alot? I think this is a reason I do the rest pause sets, I stay with one weight but do 3 sets as almost one continuous set. I just take a 30 second break inbetween and take all sets to failure.

Gino
02-03-12, 9:23 am
This is actually a great topic. I'll answer based on my own outlook ...

There are some jacked up powerlifters and there are some fat powerlifters. It all comes down to diet. Hate to say it, but a lot of powerlifters use that title as an excuse to eat whatever they want while saying, 'Its ok, I'm a powerlifter'. They eat a bodybuilder type diet with a boatload of junk surrounding it. Will the excess junk make you stronger? Sure. But it won't make you look good.

Then you have guys like Stan Efferding and our own Sam Byrd. They compete in both sports; bodybuilding and powerlifting. So they're jacked and shredded while being strong as hell. Sam Byrd competed in a bodybuilding show in late 2011 and then broke a record with a 762lb raw squat this past weekend. A true freak, in every sense of the world. So being a powerlifter doesn't necessarily mean you have to be fat and out of shape. You can easily eat a bodybuilder diet while powerlifting and just incorporate more carbs around certain workouts to help refuel and recover.

As far as workouts go, you can do something like a 5/3/1, which is geared towards focusing on max strength in the main lifts as well as overall physique. That may be your best bet. If you want more information on it, let me know and I'll help. I used that for a while. In the 2nd edition of that manual, they have workouts based on what your goals are; strength, mass, or cuts/conditioning. The rep ranges and accessory work are tailored to fit your needs.

Amen man, great answer here couldn't agree more. Nobody likes dieting but people forget how important it really is. Yeah its great to be strong as hell but if you look and feel like garbage is it really worth it? Some people might think so.

DEADn
02-03-12, 12:44 pm
The more I read about powerlifting the more I sense myself being drawn in simply from the pushing the weights part of it. I have looked back at myself when it comes to weightlifting and have realized all I have been doing is pushing weights for reps, which is ok but it isn't necessarily giving me enduring strength such as I probably would have in powerlifting. I am seeing that in powerlifting the goal is to keep progressing in weight and out do yourself every time whereas in bodybuilding it is about body shape but also just getting reps out to pump the muscle up. While that makes the body look strong it doesn't last very long, at least in my opinion. As I am workout out right now I am slowly bringing my weights up and my reps down for preparation to trying out a powerlifting routine. Maybe the 5/3/1 thing. I just need to get something laid out, maybe somebody can help me lay it and so I can try it for 1-3 months and see if I like it or not.

Aggression
02-03-12, 1:12 pm
The more I read about powerlifting the more I sense myself being drawn in simply from the pushing the weights part of it. I have looked back at myself when it comes to weightlifting and have realized all I have been doing is pushing weights for reps, which is ok but it isn't necessarily giving me enduring strength such as I probably would have in powerlifting. I am seeing that in powerlifting the goal is to keep progressing in weight and out do yourself every time whereas in bodybuilding it is about body shape but also just getting reps out to pump the muscle up. While that makes the body look strong it doesn't last very long, at least in my opinion. As I am workout out right now I am slowly bringing my weights up and my reps down for preparation to trying out a powerlifting routine. Maybe the 5/3/1 thing. I just need to get something laid out, maybe somebody can help me lay it and so I can try it for 1-3 months and see if I like it or not.

If you want, PM me your email address. I can send you the 5/3/1 manual. It lays everything out for you.

Carrnage
02-03-12, 9:55 pm
Even though I never really thought about it, I incorporate alot of things powerlifters do to increase their lifts into my bodybuilding training.

And please don't consider bodybuilding as "weightlifting", thats powerlifting. Bodybuilding is sculpting, yes we lift, but its a entirely different mindset.

DEADn
02-03-12, 10:50 pm
Even though I never really thought about it, I incorporate alot of things powerlifters do to increase their lifts into my bodybuilding training.

And please don't consider bodybuilding as "weightlifting", thats powerlifting. Bodybuilding is sculpting, yes we lift, but its a entirely different mindset.

I agree, bodybuilding is sculpting and I really never did bodybuilding. The diet part of it is too hard to deal with for me so I just weightlifted and did it for size and move up the weight scale but use the rest pause method. Aggression sent me the 5/3/1 method so I am going through it trying to put together a plan. I am hoping to start on it Monday? I found my bench max today. I usually don't do flat bench but I did it today and it is less than my bodyweight so I have work to do on that.

Cellardweller
02-03-12, 10:56 pm
I use this calculator to figure out my main lifts for 5/3/1. It provides accessory options too if you want it.

http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator

Carrnage
02-03-12, 11:41 pm
I agree, bodybuilding is sculpting and I really never did bodybuilding. The diet part of it is too hard to deal with for me so I just weightlifted and did it for size and move up the weight scale but use the rest pause method. Aggression sent me the 5/3/1 method so I am going through it trying to put together a plan. I am hoping to start on it Monday? I found my bench max today. I usually don't do flat bench but I did it today and it is less than my bodyweight so I have work to do on that.

Right on! Get strong!

DEADn
02-05-12, 5:51 pm
Ok for what it is worth I thought I might post my initial experience with the 5/3/1 method. My plan is for Sunday. Monday Wednesday and Thursday because I know eventually these days will slide down one.

Tonight I did my bench press. My max is 180lbs. So I did 105lbs for 5 reps, 120lbs for 5 reps and 130 for 8 reps.

On my auxiliary ex's I did Incline DB's 25lbs 5 x10. I did CG bench 80lbs 5x10 ( I think they were the toughest but still not real hard) and I ended with DB rows 25lb 5x10. I feel a nervousness in my arms right now. It definately isn't as intense as rest pause but I will hang with it and see what happens. I plan on doing Deadlifts next and then shoulders and then squats at the end for the next 3 day.

I may have to narrow down the auxiliary ex's because the 5 sets of 10 do get a bit boring. I see why Mendler says they are boring. It is easy to get out of form and just go through the ROM.

TigerAce01
02-05-12, 9:10 pm
Check out T-Nation and Jim Wendler's new 3 Month Challenge...everything you need in one package. This will set you in the right direction.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge

-Ace

TigerAce01
02-05-12, 9:11 pm
Even though I never really thought about it, I incorporate alot of things powerlifters do to increase their lifts into my bodybuilding training.

And please don't consider bodybuilding as "weightlifting", thats powerlifting. Bodybuilding is sculpting, yes we lift, but its a entirely different mindset.

Weightlifting is weightlifting...or "Olympic" lifting...powerlifting is powerlifting...and bodybuilding is bodybuilding.

-Ace

DEADn
02-05-12, 9:41 pm
Check out T-Nation and Jim Wendler's new 3 Month Challenge...everything you need in one package. This will set you in the right direction.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge

-Ace

Thanks for the link. I have saved it to my USB. My first routine tonight didn't feel like alot. I really don't feel like I worked out much. I feel more like I did alot of stretching from the aftermath.

DEADn
02-15-12, 6:28 pm
Ok, I just have to get this off my chest whether it is relevant or not. In doing the 5/3/1 method, I am in the end of week 2. I think to myself, am I really doing anything as in getting stronger? I have given a link to a calculator that looks like it calculates what your proposed one rep max looks like, now. For giggles I put in my military press 100lbs for 6 reps. Gave me 119lbs. I think I can do more than 119lbs more than once.

My emotions tell me this 'plan' is a joke simply because my body doesn't seem like it is getting stronger. The only thing I can tell getting any stronger is from doing good mornings. But again, all this mess may just be irrelevant. It is very different from what I am used to and it feels as if I am not doing anything but going thought some motions of a few reps and then I am done. I plan to run the phase out and see what happens.

TigerAce01
02-15-12, 10:51 pm
5/3/1 is meant as a long term solution for training, not a quick miracle cure. It is meant to be used as a multi cycle approach, adding weight to your 1RM each consecutive cycle...10lbs for squats and DL, and 5lbs for bench and OHP. I'm guessing you didn't buy/read the book and have just read what you can online, or worse, just punched your number into an online calculator.

And honestly, don't use the online calculators, they sometimes add things in that shouldn't be there. Buy the book, it's cheap, then plan out your cycles by hand. And also (this is covered in the book as well), weaker individuals will make incredible strength gains quickly, and will feel exactly what you are talking about. If the case is that you are just destroying your numbers, change your 1RM in the middle of a cycle. At times, I have changed my 1RM every week...but once you start hitting 225lbs for reps on OHP, you will know EXACTLY what your body is capable of. Being an advanced lifter doesn't just mean you heave heavier weights...it also means you know your body, training habits, etc...

Annnnnnnnnnnd...REP CALCULATORS ARE BULLLLLSHIT. THERE IS NO WAY TO CALCULATE A 1RM FROM REPS MORE THAN 3...TEST YOUR 1RM WITH AN HONEST TEST DAY.

-Ace

DEADn
02-16-12, 8:22 am
5/3/1 is meant as a long term solution for training, not a quick miracle cure. It is meant to be used as a multi cycle approach, adding weight to your 1RM each consecutive cycle...10lbs for squats and DL, and 5lbs for bench and OHP. I'm guessing you didn't buy/read the book and have just read what you can online, or worse, just punched your number into an online calculator.

And honestly, don't use the online calculators, they sometimes add things in that shouldn't be there. Buy the book, it's cheap, then plan out your cycles by hand. And also (this is covered in the book as well), weaker individuals will make incredible strength gains quickly, and will feel exactly what you are talking about. If the case is that you are just destroying your numbers, change your 1RM in the middle of a cycle. At times, I have changed my 1RM every week...but once you start hitting 225lbs for reps on OHP, you will know EXACTLY what your body is capable of. Being an advanced lifter doesn't just mean you heave heavier weights...it also means you know your body, training habits, etc...

Annnnnnnnnnnd...REP CALCULATORS ARE BULLLLLSHIT. THERE IS NO WAY TO CALCULATE A 1RM FROM REPS MORE THAN 3...TEST YOUR 1RM WITH AN HONEST TEST DAY.

-Ace

I had the ebook sent to me so I read through it. I didn't use any online calculator to put in my numbers. I used my head along with a calculator comparing the 2. The only max I am sure if is my bench press because I did that for the max. The others I guesstimated. Although I am still going with it I Feel like it is too slow? I am going to finish the first cycle just to see what happens. The one thing I don't understand is how do you know if you have beaten your max without doing it? In my reading it sounds as if lifters are using the week 3 and using the 1 rep (or more) and basing that as a new max which makes no sense to me since that isn't even 90% of the original max? I.E. for my bench. my max is 180 and 90% is 162lbs. on week 3 for the 1 rep I would be pushing probbaly about 155ish. Even if I Pushed that 3 times that doesn't tell me I beat my max. I only know if I beat it by physically pushing that weight. Now, am I missing something in translation?

Bruiser
02-16-12, 8:36 am
I had the ebook sent to me so I read through it. I didn't use any online calculator to put in my numbers. I used my head along with a calculator comparing the 2. The only max I am sure if is my bench press because I did that for the max. The others I guesstimated. Although I am still going with it I Feel like it is too slow? I am going to finish the first cycle just to see what happens. The one thing I don't understand is how do you know if you have beaten your max without doing it? In my reading it sounds as if lifters are using the week 3 and using the 1 rep (or more) and basing that as a new max which makes no sense to me since that isn't even 90% of the original max? I.E. for my bench. my max is 180 and 90% is 162lbs. on week 3 for the 1 rep I would be pushing probbaly about 155ish. Even if I Pushed that 3 times that doesn't tell me I beat my max. I only know if I beat it by physically pushing that weight. Now, am I missing something in translation?

Think of it this way. If your 1RM is 190 and from doing the 5/3/1 program you can hit 180 for 10 reps... do you think your max went up? Hells yeah it did! You don't need to do singles to see how strong you've gotten.

Cellardweller
02-16-12, 8:44 am
Don't just stop with the 3 reps on the last set. If you can do 7 with 155 do it. Next month you up the weight. If next month you do 165x7 on your 3+ day, then you've added strength. It doesn't tell you what your one rep max is, but if you can only squeeze out 155x7 then in one month you hit 165x7 or more you have progressed. I never read the ebook, but I believe JW says the program works even if you low ball your one rep max.

Aggression
02-16-12, 8:48 am
Think of it this way. If your 1RM is 190 and from doing the 5/3/1 program you can hit 180 for 10 reps... do you think your max went up? Hells yeah it did! You don't need to do singles to see how strong you've gotten.

Right. The 5/3/1 isn't going to show you big max single increases b/c that's not how the program is designed. But as Bruiser said, if you start off with a max press of 190 and then after a few waves, you're doing 180x10, your max is easily up in the 2's somewhere. The 5/3/1 is to be used consistently. Take a look at it this way ... if you're starting squat on max is, say, 400lbs. Your first '1' week workout (the heaviest) should be about 340lbs or something. At the end of each wave, you'll add 10lbs to your 'max'. So after several trips through, your ending '1' week weight may be 405 or 410. Over time, you'll eventually eclipse your 1RM without even realizing it. And THAT is what the program is designed for.

The program is really for 5+, 3+, and 1+ reps. Each week, you don't stop at just 5. You can choose to go more, leaving a rep or two in the tank. The newer edition has an outline like this; go 3+ reps, just hit 5, and then go 1+ reps. So on the '5' week, you're just hitting your required reps and then doing accessory work. When you're at 3 or 1 weeks, go higher, do maybe 4-6 on the '3' week, and maybe 2-4 on the '1' week, depending on how you feel. Also, when I run the program for a while, I'll test my max out every 3-4 cycles through. On the '1' week, instead of doing 5 reps, 3 reps, and then 1+ reps, I'll just hit all those weights for 1 rep and then keep adding weight until I hit my 1RM. After that week, go back to the program, add 5-10lbs to each lift, and continue. But do NOT re-evaluate your base numbers just b/c you have a new max. Keep with the same format; adding 5-10 between cycles.

harperpj
02-16-12, 9:00 am
As stated before, 5/3/1 is a program designed to work over the course of a lifting career. It does work slowly in that you don't really add a lot of weight onto your maxes every month. For example, last month I worked up to 225x6 on my bench, and this month, 95% worked out to be 225 again, so I did it for 8. If you have had more success with other programs, then by all means stick with what works for you, but it's not really fair to try something for a week or two and say its not working. What was your bench two years ago? What was your squat two years ago? Unless you've put on fifty pounds to your squat in the last year, what do you have to lose? I'm a big fan of 5/3/1 because it works for me. With that being said, I'm not going to bash you just because you don't like my program of choice, but unless you've been getting stronger over the course of a few years doing other things, why not give 5/3/1 six months or a year and see what happens. If you do this, I'd be willing to bet you'll be stronger and more muscular than you are right now.

DEADn
02-16-12, 6:51 pm
Ok, I do get the picture. I suppose on one point I am having a mental battle with this simply because it is not something I am accustomed to doing while weightlifting and yet it could be the thing I need but need patience to work it out. This is my thinking on it.

One other question, when taking the last set to more than 5 reps, and 3 reps is there a number that tells you when the weight may be too light? Or is this just simply showing the muscle getting stronger? I.E. in doing squats today I did 185 x 3, 200 x 3 and 210 x 9 leaving probably about 2 reps in the tank. My guesstimated max on squats starting out is 280.

Next week with be my proving point? with the 5/3/1 which starts on Sunday afternoon for me. I don't plan to deload right now.

TigerAce01
02-16-12, 7:04 pm
Ok, I do get the picture. I suppose on one point I am having a mental battle with this simply because it is not something I am accustomed to doing while weightlifting and yet it could be the thing I need but need patience to work it out. This is my thinking on it.

One other question, when taking the last set to more than 5 reps, and 3 reps is there a number that tells you when the weight may be too light? Or is this just simply showing the muscle getting stronger? I.E. in doing squats today I did 185 x 3, 200 x 3 and 210 x 9 leaving probably about 2 reps in the tank. My guesstimated max on squats starting out is 280.

Next week with be my proving point? with the 5/3/1 which starts on Sunday afternoon for me. I don't plan to deload right now.

I always leave a rep or two in the tank. My rule of thumb is if I can hit the following, I need to re calculate my 1RM:

8 reps on a 5+ set
5-6 reps on a 3+ set
3-4 reps on a 1+ set

Also, keep in mind I leave a rep or two in the tank, so really, I know I can hit higher. But, I run the "heavier" program as outlined in the book, and I know my training pretty well, so I keep up with my 1RM, and know when to tweak things.

-Ace

DEADn
02-16-12, 8:51 pm
I always leave a rep or two in the tank. My rule of thumb is if I can hit the following, I need to re calculate my 1RM:

8 reps on a 5+ set
5-6 reps on a 3+ set
3-4 reps on a 1+ set

Also, keep in mind I leave a rep or two in the tank, so really, I know I can hit higher. But, I run the "heavier" program as outlined in the book, and I know my training pretty well, so I keep up with my 1RM, and know when to tweak things.

-Ace

Ok, I need to ask a follow up regarding your post. Are your reps referring to the 3rd week on this?
My plan for next week, week 3 is that after I do my regular routine I plan then to do my max or as close to it as I can vs. just estimating it. This way I get a truer version and maybe feel it more when I do the routine. My bench and military press - I don't 'feel' like anything is going on but 'feel' is arbitrary.

TigerAce01
02-16-12, 10:00 pm
Nope, this is on the "plus" sets...basically the last set on any week. The 3rd week you are only supposed to go beyond the prescribed reps on the final set, just like any other week.

So, just to recap with a clearer example in case you want to copy it or something:

Week 1 - "5" week - On the final set, if you hit over 8 reps, or know you could hit above 8 reps, your 1RM might need to be raised.
Week 2 - "3" week - Same as above, but if you hit or know you can hit 5-6 reps.
week 3 - "5/3/1" week - Same as above, but if you hit or know you can hit 3-4 reps.

-Ace

DEADn
02-17-12, 8:43 am
Nope, this is on the "plus" sets...basically the last set on any week. The 3rd week you are only supposed to go beyond the prescribed reps on the final set, just like any other week.

So, just to recap with a clearer example in case you want to copy it or something:

Week 1 - "5" week - On the final set, if you hit over 8 reps, or know you could hit above 8 reps, your 1RM might need to be raised.
Week 2 - "3" week - Same as above, but if you hit or know you can hit 5-6 reps.
week 3 - "5/3/1" week - Same as above, but if you hit or know you can hit 3-4 reps.

-Ace

Ok. The picture is becoming clearer for me now.

Aggression
02-17-12, 8:50 am
One other question, when taking the last set to more than 5 reps, and 3 reps is there a number that tells you when the weight may be too light? Or is this just simply showing the muscle getting stronger? I.E. in doing squats today I did 185 x 3, 200 x 3 and 210 x 9 leaving probably about 2 reps in the tank. My guesstimated max on squats starting out is 280.

This happened to me too. On my '5' week, I sometimes did 12-15 reps in the first few waves. You're STILL building overall strength from doing this, so don't get discouraged or worry about anything. Just proceed as planned. After a few more waves, you'll be hitting maybe 7-8 on '5' week as you increase weight. As we all stated, its a long-term program that yields great results. The biggest factor is to not fret the small shit. Just hit your numbers and more, leaving a few in the tank, consistently add 5-10lbs per waves, and train hard. Don't worry about anything else. In time, you'll blow up your numbers.

TigerAce01
02-17-12, 9:43 am
This happened to me too. On my '5' week, I sometimes did 12-15 reps in the first few waves. You're STILL building overall strength from doing this, so don't get discouraged or worry about anything. Just proceed as planned. After a few more waves, you'll be hitting maybe 7-8 on '5' week as you increase weight. As we all stated, its a long-term program that yields great results. The biggest factor is to not fret the small shit. Just hit your numbers and more, leaving a few in the tank, consistently add 5-10lbs per waves, and train hard. Don't worry about anything else. In time, you'll blow up your numbers.

Exactly, a lot of folks get their panties in a bunch over the "Training Max" where 10% is subtracted from your true 1RM...but with the program, within 3-4 months, you'll probably be past that. I think because the conjugate system has been the gold standard for so long, MANY people feel that if they aren't hitting a new single max every workout, they aren't progressing. But, rep maxes below 8 all still make you stronger...especially for the RAW trainee. Grinding strength is very underrated and underutilized by the inexperienced lifter.

-Ace

DEADn
02-19-12, 12:39 pm
This week becomes my 'put up or shut up' week for 5/3/1 method. I am on week 3 and will be doing it as prescribe. When I am done I will be added 10lbs to my previous max and doing a rep to see if I hit it. If I hit it I will go another 5-10lbs to see how far I can go. Today was my bench day. My previous max coming into today was 180lbs. I physically did it. I did my 5/3/1 and on the 1 I hit 140lbs for 9 reps and that felt very good. It got my hopes running strong on my max. I rested a few minutes and put 190lbs. on the bar. I hit it for 1 strong rep. I decided to go for 200lbs just to see. Well. I did that as well but MUCH slower. Good thing I have a half rack to spot me. It was ALOT of weight but I managed to get it. I was only 4" above my chest? I am WOWED!!!! Now I will begin with 200 as my new max.

In the past the most I have ever been to able lift in the bench is 225lbs. That will be shocking when I hit that for multiple reps. My side exercises today were CG bench with 85lb and incline db's with 30lbs plus DB bar. I just hope I didn't hurt myself after these exercises.

Monday is Military press day. The rest of my compound ex's are all guesstimates. I will not do a deload next week as the method plans for. So, day one is a 'shut up' to me, lol.

TigerAce01
02-19-12, 1:11 pm
I can almost guarantee that in 3-4 months you'll have the ability to be repping 225...just stay healthy and patient.

Glad you had an awesome, successful bench day!!

-Ace

D-Kev
02-20-12, 1:39 am
I just started this program up as well. Week 3 begins monday or tuesday for me.
So far I like it. It feels like smart, efficient training. Workouts move smoothly...
Seems like better quality training in less time...Compared to some other routines I've done.
I'm sticking with this for a long time.

DEADn
02-20-12, 3:54 pm
I just started this program up as well. Week 3 begins monday or tuesday for me.
So far I like it. It feels like smart, efficient training. Workouts move smoothly...
Seems like better quality training in less time...Compared to some other routines I've done.
I'm sticking with this for a long time.

I hear you. I am on week three and there are pro's and con's for me. The con is it really doesn't feel like I am doing alot even when I grind out the last set to just before failure. The pro, so far is on bench I have gotten stronger. Today is deadlifts. Wednesday is Military press and Thursday is squats.

DEADn
02-20-12, 6:08 pm
I knocked out my deadlift this evening. I put on 205lbs for my last set and knocked out 10 good reps out of it. I put on 50lbs after that and did a rep to see how it felt. It was good so I went for 290lbs. I placed my previous max at about 260lbs. I did 290lbs for 1 rep. It felt good but I noticed my grip, especially on my left hand, was slipping, even with gloves on. So, it looks like I will be using 290 for my max on my next go around.

Wednesday will be Military press with my max at 130lbs. That may be a bit harder to nail, we shall see.

greek91
02-20-12, 6:29 pm
I knocked out my deadlift this evening. I put on 205lbs for my last set and knocked out 10 good reps out of it. I put on 50lbs after that and did a rep to see how it felt. It was good so I went for 290lbs. I placed my previous max at about 260lbs. I did 290lbs for 1 rep. It felt good but I noticed my grip, especially on my left hand, was slipping, even with gloves on. So, it looks like I will be using 290 for my max on my next go around.

Wednesday will be Military press with my max at 130lbs. That may be a bit harder to nail, we shall see.

Nice work bro. The maxes are pretty much a trial and error thing for the first couple cycles. But once you lock in where youre at its easy to see the progression. It's a slowwwww program, but it works.

DEADn
02-28-12, 8:52 pm
Have you ever had a workout that was so great it was almost like an organism? You sit there with your eyes half open, body sore and with a smirk on your face? This is how I feel after tonight routine. I did deadlifts in the 5/3/1 method then I did 5 x 5 good mornings and ended with db curls 5 x 5 although I think I am going to change the weight on that next time so I make better progress in the strength department. I almost feel as if I have taken a shower on the inside. body feels tired, yet high. Anybody feel me?

RedlegDbell
02-29-12, 2:04 am
Ok, I do get the picture. I suppose on one point I am having a mental battle with this simply because it is not something I am accustomed to doing while weightlifting and yet it could be the thing I need but need patience to work it out. This is my thinking on it.

One other question, when taking the last set to more than 5 reps, and 3 reps is there a number that tells you when the weight may be too light? Or is this just simply showing the muscle getting stronger? I.E. in doing squats today I did 185 x 3, 200 x 3 and 210 x 9 leaving probably about 2 reps in the tank. My guesstimated max on squats starting out is 280.

Next week with be my proving point? with the 5/3/1 which starts on Sunday afternoon for me. I don't plan to deload right now.

I say you should stay the slow steady course with this. I just started this about 3 weeks ago and I estimated my max on squats to be 300 based on getting 285x3 the week before (confident it was higher but played it safe at 300). I ran through week 1 twice because I didn't want to be on the deloading week at the National ABC.
The first week of squats with my 5/3/1 max of 270lbs: 175x5, 205x5, 230x11.
Week two: 175x5, 205x5 230x16.
This week I went 215x3, 230x3, 245x13.
Squat and Deadlift day are total smoke shows for me where as bench day is more of a struggle. I feel your same temptation to add a lot to my max, but I'm focusing on 3-4 months from now instead. The weights I can get for 3 or 4 reps now I'll be getting then 7,8,10 reps out of. I want to deadlift 405x10 reps as badly as I want to max 500 for the first time. Sleepwalk through those first two sets and hit the third one HARD. Don't leave reps in the tank on set #3 unless you are nervous and without a spotter. Sorry for rambling on. I hope you stick with a few months and see what happens.

DEADn
03-14-12, 6:13 pm
I am on my 3rd cycle with this 5/3/1 method thing and it it beginning to impress me. I wondered how much muscle memory would be involved with this. There is some but I am noticing a better physique coming then what i used to have. Anyway, I did deadlifts this evening and on my last set I put on 245lbs. My last cycle on this I did 235lbs for 7 reps. This time I actually did 9 reps leaving 1 still out there but then I got a massive headrush of a headache afterward. I am thinking I don't have enough water so I am drinking up right now because I hit a few more exercises. What also impressed me about this lift is that my grip stayed the whole time. I usually find it beginning to slip and at the very end I am nearly at my finger tips. It stayed the whole way- I was also playing Static X and I got my mind into the guitar riffs, I wonder if that pushed my blood and adrenalin over the edge? In any case I will take it and run with it. I do not plan on doing a deloading phase just yet though. I think I have more room to grow before I need to deload but this is pretty fun! Really, what is fun is watching the thickness of muscle slowly coming forth.

jb3198
03-14-12, 6:36 pm
This is so my dilemma... Right here, holy crap man. Thanks for bumping this one up.... With Aggression, Tiger and Bruiser on here DeadN your doing so bitchen, and we are really really pretty spot on, my weight is a bit more but age is damn near the same.

Thanks for having this one going... what is 5/3/1? Ive looked and looked but I just dont seem to find the one thread that lays it out.

DEADn
03-14-12, 7:19 pm
This is so my dilemma... Right here, holy crap man. Thanks for bumping this one up.... With Aggression, Tiger and Bruiser on here DeadN your doing so bitchen, and we are really really pretty spot on, my weight is a bit more but age is damn near the same.

Thanks for having this one going... what is 5/3/1? Ive looked and looked but I just dont seem to find the one thread that lays it out.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge

This gives you a synopsis of the 5/3/1 method. I will tell you that when you start this it feels like a joke. Then as I stayed with it I found my weight steadily moving up as you can see in my posting. I have never done straight out strength training until now so it is my primary focus. my only downfall with it right now is getting the correct exercises to do after the main one to assist in the strength building.

jb3198
03-15-12, 10:03 am
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_boring_but_big_3month_challenge

This gives you a synopsis of the 5/3/1 method. I will tell you that when you start this it feels like a joke. Then as I stayed with it I found my weight steadily moving up as you can see in my posting. I have never done straight out strength training until now so it is my primary focus. my only downfall with it right now is getting the correct exercises to do after the main one to assist in the strength building.

Thanks man, Ill get into this today. Huge help and thanks for being here and sharing this stuff on the board!

Aggression
03-15-12, 10:22 am
I knocked out my deadlift this evening. I put on 205lbs for my last set and knocked out 10 good reps out of it. I put on 50lbs after that and did a rep to see how it felt. It was good so I went for 290lbs. I placed my previous max at about 260lbs. I did 290lbs for 1 rep. It felt good but I noticed my grip, especially on my left hand, was slipping, even with gloves on. So, it looks like I will be using 290 for my max on my next go around.

Wednesday will be Military press with my max at 130lbs. That may be a bit harder to nail, we shall see.

Technically, per the book, you're not suppose to recalculate your starting numbers. So if you placed your max at 260, even if you pulled 400lbs, you should still work with 260 as your base number, adding 5-10lbs on each lift per wave. Don't jump too ahead, bro. Everyone wants to sprint to the finish line. But a slow, steady pace will always produce the best results.

DEADn
03-15-12, 12:20 pm
Technically, per the book, you're not suppose to recalculate your starting numbers. So if you placed your max at 260, even if you pulled 400lbs, you should still work with 260 as your base number, adding 5-10lbs on each lift per wave. Don't jump too ahead, bro. Everyone wants to sprint to the finish line. But a slow, steady pace will always produce the best results.

I have balanced myself out since I have doing this 5/3/1 thing now. After my first wave I did my PR's because I wanted to see how close I was to where I thought I was. Now I am only doing the increments and in a few months I will try the PR's again and see what happens.


btw, One of the things I am doing is DB preaching curls. I am doing 5 x 5 with a higher weight for an auxiliary lift. I am actually starting out doing 5 x 3 and then working it up to 5 x 6 for strength. In the end does this kind of routine help build the biceps in strength? Right now it seems to be going very well but I am wondering in longer terms?
In the same process it appears that my biceps are outpacing or outgrowing my forearms. Both inner and outer. Should I do anything about that? last night I did some slow hammer curls, meaning I paused for 3-4 seconds and then I did the invanko super gripper 3 sets of 30 seconds trying to focus that on my inner forearm. Also for grip as well.

jb3198
03-15-12, 1:56 pm
Hey just wanted to say thanks again man, I get it, I understand this and now Im off to start a new thread. Dont want to hijack this one in anyway... I m looking forward to watching your gains!! Progress is so kick ass!

DEADn
03-15-12, 2:47 pm
Hey just wanted to say thanks again man, I get it, I understand this and now Im off to start a new thread. Dont want to hijack this one in anyway... I m looking forward to watching your gains!! Progress is so kick ass!

JB , I just want to warn you that when you begin this thing it is going to feel like joke. You won't leave your gym feeling like you left it all in the gym. I decided to play the method out just to see what happens. That is how I am still with it because I see my lifts going up.

jb3198
03-15-12, 3:11 pm
I feel ya man... and I did read that with your experience too. Im excited man I really am.

Hey I dont want to hijack your thread but I just need clarification on the math please...

my squat is 400, I did it the other day for 1.. Im working with 90 percent of that weight correct.. So week one is be based off of 360 lbs? so that means my break down is ....... set 1: 5x234, set 2: 5x270, set 3: 5x306? and then two aux exercises?

is that right?

DEADn
03-15-12, 5:18 pm
I feel ya man... and I did read that with your experience too. Im excited man I really am.

Hey I dont want to hijack your thread but I just need clarification on the math please...

my squat is 400, I did it the other day for 1.. Im working with 90 percent of that weight correct.. So week one is be based off of 360 lbs? so that means my break down is ....... set 1: 5x234, set 2: 5x270, set 3: 5x306? and then two aux exercises?

is that right?

almost there. The last set goes as far as you go take it while leaving 1 rep in the tank. 306 for as many reps as you can get without maxing out.

jb3198
03-15-12, 6:28 pm
Alright, now I get that... super sweet. Thanks for the help man. Ill keep ya posted on how this turns out.

DEADn
03-17-12, 9:46 pm
I have wondered in the back of my mind, at what point would a person replace the 5/3/1 method with another powerlifting method?

TigerAce01
03-17-12, 10:06 pm
When you stop making progress. And at that point, you can implement 3/5/1.

-Ace

DEADn
03-18-12, 2:55 pm
When you stop making progress. And at that point, you can implement 3/5/1.

-Ace

see, now that just sounds too funny!

TigerAce01
03-18-12, 3:28 pm
see, now that just sounds too funny!

hahaha why?

-Ace

DEADn
03-18-12, 4:40 pm
hahaha why?

-Ace

Just seems like a play on numbers.

jb3198
03-20-12, 3:34 pm
Checkin in man to see how things are rolling along

mbaer1932
03-20-12, 4:01 pm
I have the above dilemma. Up until now I have simply weightlifted or maybe you can call it bodybuilding without try to sculpt and chisel myself. I am getting myself back into weightlifting and I have this dilemma. I don't necessarily care to be able to lift 800lbs in a deadlift or even squat that much. Doesn't mean much to me. However, I do want to get strong with some chisel in there but I don't want to spent alot of time on isolation exercises as you would do in bodybuilding.

At the moment I am doing rest pause lifting aka DC training and I find myself wanting to focus more on core lifts for strength as well as size. I know powerlifting focuses on this as well but the powerlifting routines have enticed me, probably because I am used to more bodybuilding exercises. What do I do about this? Bodybuilding routines look simpler to me than powerlifting routines that I have seen. The latest one I have looked into is the 5,3,1 routine and I understand half of it, I think.

I have noticed that more often than not that a majority of powerliftings seem to be big and fat with muscle and strength in there-somewhere. I do see the occasional powerlifter who is more cut yet very strong and with some good size as well. What is the difference between the 'fat' ones and the 'cut' ones when it comes to diet?

I am 6'1" around 215lbs. My BF is around 28% and most of that hangs around my stomach region.
Does bodybuilding require more nutrients than powerlifting in order to build strength and muscle or is it about the same?

I understand that powerlifting is all about working ones way up to lifting the max amount for one rep. While that is fun and a challenge that isn't my main goal. Yeah, I would like to see my weights go up but My ultimate goal is from size and strength. Do I stay with the bodybuilding scene or should I do powerlifting and if so what is the recommendation? btw, I usually lift at home, I have an ironmaster half rack because I workout alone. At the moment I am focusing myself on the 3 core lifts as well as the military press for the shoulders while being careful of my neck. I suffered a cervical hernia in my neck 2 years ago. I got it from doing barbell curls and cheating a bit in rocking backward.

DEADn

football players do both if you think about it. they have to have strength and speed to accomplish their jobs on the field

DEADn
03-20-12, 4:49 pm
Just a little update on my lifts. I did bench yesterday and I think I screwed my routine numbers up a bit simply by miscalculating a previous lift.
I calculated my max , this cycle, as 210lbs so my 90% is 190lbs. My sets were 125lbs, 142lb and 155lbs. I upped 125 to 130 since 130 doesn't require me to make major weight changes on half rack as 125 did. Well, I nailed it good but then for whatever reason I look at the past weeks and when I got the the 155lb mark I saw that I had done 160lb for 7 reps. I thought, why I am only doing 155 then? I upped it to 160 and knocked out 8 reps. Well, stupid little me, the number for this 160 I was looking at was my final set on the 5/3/1 week. Next week should have been when I do 160lbs for the last set so I will keep with it and let the other weights catch up. Keeping the ego out of it.



One thing I have been doing that I don't think is in the 5/3/1 method is the boring but big thing- I am not necessarily using the 60% weight for 5 x 10. At least I don't think. I have been concentrating a bit on incline DB press in which I got up to 45lbs but for 2 x 10 3 x 7. Probably need to take this down to 40lbs. I have also concentrated on biceps by doing preached DB curls. I want to stay heavy with lower reps. in this case 40lbs for around 5 x 5. When I got up 5lbs I intend to start with 3 reps sets and work my way to 6 before adding more. My biceps and strength are really coming forward on this. My question though is should I continue my biceps in this way or is there a much better way to get them hard and strong and avoid injury? I am careful to not use too much body english to work them. After all. too much body takes away from the bicep working to break muscle fibers and grow.

I think my only weak spot in all of this is my stomach area. Needs some really seriously tightening and lose of fat. Last time I did my BF index I was about 25% which is not good at all. Stomach is the one area I have neglected and I think it is because I really don't know what I can do to strengthen them.

TigerAce01
03-20-12, 5:21 pm
Honestly brother, it looks like you're doing exactly what I would do...feeling things out and letting them work for you. It feels really good to see you simply letting exercises work for you instead of working for the exercises. If it feels good, and you feel it's working for your lifts (and it seems it obviously is), I say stick with it until your progress stalls!

Keep us updated! Do you have a journey?

-Ace

DEADn
03-20-12, 9:11 pm
Honestly brother, it looks like you're doing exactly what I would do...feeling things out and letting them work for you. It feels really good to see you simply letting exercises work for you instead of working for the exercises. If it feels good, and you feel it's working for your lifts (and it seems it obviously is), I say stick with it until your progress stalls!

Keep us updated! Do you have a journey?

-Ace

Nope, I don't have a journey, I wonder if I should create one?

DEADn
03-20-12, 9:37 pm
I have created a journey now that I titled 'Journey to my Maximum' a take off from a poem I wrote on the same subject.