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View Full Version : 1,3 Dimeth Bandwagon....



Noob Saibot
05-01-12, 9:09 pm
Nice job by Universal to leave it out of Rage. It's great as it is and now 1,3 has been banned as a dietary supplement.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/FDAGeneral/32438

Noob Saibot
05-01-12, 9:14 pm
http://www.stripes.com/news/fda-orders-halt-to-sale-of-products-containing-dmaa-1.175996

CrystalLake
05-02-12, 8:30 am
Never enjoyed the ingredient at all. Great jolt of energy, but short lasting and a nasty crash follows.

Rage FTW!

smoothballer
05-02-12, 8:52 am
Never enjoyed the ingredient at all. Great jolt of energy, but short lasting and a nasty crash follows.

Rage FTW!

This^^^

naturalguy
05-02-12, 8:55 am
Quite honestly when we first worked on Animal Rage and tested the samples, it was strong enough without needing 1,3 so it made sense to not include it. You still get tons of energy and focus but without any of the sides.

Sprint
05-02-12, 10:50 am
Nice job by Universal to leave it out of Rage. It's great as it is and now 1,3 has been banned as a dietary supplement.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/FDAGeneral/32438

UK Athletics have had it on their list of banned substances for around about a year now. They're uber-strict tho, so whilst it was still available in so many supps, athletes couldn't take it.

The US sprinter, Mike Rodgers has recently returned from a ban caused by taking a form of 1,3.


So to second Noob...

...massive, huge well done and thanks to Universal/Animal for looking out for their family.

There are several reasons why I choose them, this is just one.

J-Dawg
05-02-12, 10:54 am
Yeah, we've always felt strongly that Rage never needed 1,3 dimeth to be effective. Sounds like there's going to be a number of lawsuits coming out against 1,3 dimeth now.

Sprint
05-02-12, 10:56 am
Yeah, we've always felt strongly that Rage never needed 1,3 dimeth to be effective. Sounds like there's going to be a number of lawsuits coming out against 1,3 dimeth now.

1983 onwards...

... nuff said.

Universal Rep
05-02-12, 10:57 am
Nice job by Universal to leave it out of Rage. It's great as it is and now 1,3 has been banned as a dietary supplement.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/FDAGeneral/32438

Relevant topic... We're havin a conversation about this over here too. DMAA and the recent Fed actions... http://www.universalusa.com/Community/Forum/Live/FDA-Supplement-Industry-DMAA#post_162126

Yup. It wuz never an option due to all the controversy surroundin 1,3 dimeth. Why use it when ya don't got to?

Mr. Dead
05-02-12, 11:07 am
Tried an energy drink that had this in it... Wasn't impressed, nor did I really like the effect...

Universal Rep
05-02-12, 11:24 am
Tried an energy drink that had this in it... Wasn't impressed, nor did I really like the effect...

Stim dick?

Mr. Dead
05-02-12, 11:28 am
Stim dick?

Heh... Heh... Heh... Nope never had that issue... Just didn't like the feeling... It was more of a "thin" energy feeling... Not the full, focused, and alert energy that I get from the Universal/Animal products...

Universal Rep
05-02-12, 11:30 am
Heh... Heh... Heh... Nope never had that issue... Just didn't like the feeling... It was more of a "thin" energy feeling... Not the full, focused, and alert energy that I get from the Universal/Animal products...

Ur secret is safe with me brotha. Nuthin to be ashamed of.

Mr. Dead
05-02-12, 11:32 am
Ur secret is safe with me brotha. Nuthin to be ashamed of.

*LOL* Uhm... I'm not that old...

PORTERHOUSE
05-02-12, 12:25 pm
*LOL* Uhm... I'm not that old...

I'm 25 and 1,3 gives me stim dick... I never touch anything that contains it.

Noob Saibot
05-02-12, 12:56 pm
Yeah, we've always felt strongly that Rage never needed 1,3 dimeth to be effective. Sounds like there's going to be a number of lawsuits coming out against 1,3 dimeth now.

Rage is so versatile too, yesterday I took 3/4 serving at 5:30pm to see if I would have energy to train at around 9-9:30pm, then still be able to go to bed around 12. It actually worked out exactly as planned. Had a great workout, took PM around 11:30 and done.

Universal Rep
05-02-12, 1:10 pm
I'm 25 and 1,3 gives me stim dick... I never touch anything that contains it.

Yup... I've read that from users a lot... Stim dick and major league crashes.


Rage is so versatile too, yesterday I took 3/4 serving at 5:30pm to see if I would have energy to train at around 9-9:30pm, then still be able to go to bed around 12. It actually worked out exactly as planned. Had a great workout, took PM around 11:30 and done.

3 hours is cuttin way to close for me when I use Rage, but it doesn't bother me when I give it 6 hours...

Jay
05-03-12, 5:14 pm
Be interesting to see how this affects other stim containing supplements when word gets out to the general public. The other day a friend of mine was consuming a monster energy drink when someone says "WHY are you drinking that! Those are bad for you! Further conversation revealed she had heard how energy drinks are bad for you (not specifically monster energy )
So will the general public think ALL stim based products are 'bad for you' once these DMAA containing products are taken off the shelf? Will sales go down?

Universal Rep
05-03-12, 5:15 pm
Be interesting to see how this affects other stim containing supplements when word gets out to the general public. The other day a friend of mine was consuming a monster energy drink when someone says "WHY are you drinking that! Those are bad for you! Further conversation revealed she had heard how energy drinks are bad for you (not specifically monster energy )
So will the general public think ALL stim based products are 'bad for you' once these DMAA containing products are taken off the shelf? Will sales go down?

The general public thinks creatine is a "steriod"...

Jay
05-03-12, 5:18 pm
The general public thinks creatine is a "steriod"...

That is veryyyy very true.

TigerAce01
05-03-12, 5:49 pm
Used it once and felt high for a while...then I crashed so hard I literally fell asleep while eating dinner.

-Ace

PORTERHOUSE
05-04-12, 6:56 pm
The general public thinks creatine is a "steriod"...

I'm shootin up roids every day in the locker room. At least that's what everyone seems to think when I take nitro post training.

Beowulf
05-07-12, 4:31 pm
I'm shootin up roids every day in the locker room. At least that's what everyone seems to think when I take nitro post training.

I take a blue pill and people think I'm taking Viagra when in fact, I'm just trying to ignore reality.

Carrnage
05-07-12, 5:24 pm
I'm shootin up roids every day in the locker room. At least that's what everyone seems to think when I take nitro post training.

/post reported

Carrnage
05-07-12, 5:25 pm
I take a blue pill and people think I'm taking Viagra when in fact, I'm just trying to ignore reality.

/Amen

Carrnage
05-07-12, 6:04 pm
Never enjoyed the ingredient at all. Great jolt of energy, but short lasting and a nasty crash follows.

Rage FTW!

Hmm the energy seems to last all day with me and no crash.....

Which honestly isn't a good thing, I need to crash when im using a pre workout supp!

PORTERHOUSE
05-07-12, 7:07 pm
/post reported

seriously?

Carrnage
05-07-12, 7:39 pm
seriously?

lol I was just messin hahah

Jay
05-07-12, 8:16 pm
lol I was just messin hahah

is 1,3 dimeth and gerium the same thing

JasonG
05-07-12, 8:20 pm
is 1,3 dimeth and gerium the same thing

Real geranium is an herb. 1,3 dimeth is a synthetic version of geranium. Problem is companies using 1,3 and calling it geranium.

Jay
05-07-12, 8:25 pm
Real geranium is an herb. 1,3 dimeth is a synthetic version of geranium. Problem is companies using 1,3 and calling it geranium.


AHHH ok.. Thank you. Regardless, they are both no good I would assume.

JasonG
05-08-12, 8:24 am
AHHH ok.. Thank you. Regardless, they are both no good I would assume.

I'm not so sure that it's no good, just that it's dangerous if not dosed correctly. I think ephedra went down the same road because people abused it. I personally think it's a shame when a product gets bannned due to a lack of individual responsibility. That said, well formulated products don't need it anyway. I love rage and don't think it's lacking anywhere from a focus/energy standpoint.

PORTERHOUSE
05-08-12, 10:50 am
I'm not so sure that it's no good, just that it's dangerous if not dosed correctly. I think ephedra went down the same road because people abused it. I personally think it's a shame when a product gets bannned due to a lack of individual responsibility. That said, well formulated products don't need it anyway. I love rage and don't think it's lacking anywhere from a focus/energy standpoint.

Im just glad the is starting to be some regulation in the industry, Most guys around here wont probably agree with me, but companies need to be accountable for what they market and put out there.

Beowulf
05-08-12, 12:21 pm
AHHH ok.. Thank you. Regardless, they are both no good I would assume.

There is a lot of confusion with ingredients and labeling surrounding 1,3-Dimethylamylamine, DMAA, geranium oil and geranamine, among other names. If you want to avoid it, to be safe, you'd avoid all versions of the name.

Universal Rep
05-08-12, 2:10 pm
There is a lot of confusion with ingredients and labeling surrounding 1,3-Dimethylamylamine, DMAA, geranium oil and geranamine, among other names. If you want to avoid it, to be safe, you'd avoid all versions of the name.

All gonna be sorted out soon enough I suppose...

Beowulf
05-08-12, 4:00 pm
Im just glad the is starting to be some regulation in the industry, Most guys around here wont probably agree with me, but companies need to be accountable for what they market and put out there.

I agree with you 100%. Still, the FDA has been taking on a much larger and larger role, especially in the past few years. There's a lot more regulation now than there ever was and I think that's a good thing.

B.S.
05-08-12, 4:50 pm
i love 1,3 dimeth

that is all

Noob Saibot
05-08-12, 7:47 pm
I agree with you 100%. Still, the FDA has been taking on a much larger and larger role, especially in the past few years. There's a lot more regulation now than there ever was and I think that's a good thing.

I'm glad Rage doesn't have it in there because it would be pulled right, but the government getting involved, I'm not sold on this. Anything can be harmful if over used, or not used as directed. If they start getting to involved with supplements we are going to see some of our favorite supps go away.

Some people abuse alcohol, it's still legal. Smoking is absolutely stupid. If you smoke and that offends you...good. You know it's killing you. Anyway, still legal.

Also Wolf this wasn't directed at you just going off of what you were talking about.

machineman
05-08-12, 8:36 pm
I have never used anything with 1,3 so I cannot say it works or doesn't or whatever. My take on this, like many other things, is that if USED correctly is it a danger? If so, then remove it from ALL products. If used incorrectly (ABUSED) is it a danger? If so, that is where personal responsability comes into play. There are many things out there that we can get our hands on that are not good for us. Yet, we still accept the risks and use them anyway. There seems to be a prevelant lack of personal responsablilty and I don't know where it comes from. I am not saying that directly to anyone on the FORVM, I am say that in just a general sense. I think it was bullshit that ephedra was banned. It was banned due to people ABUSING it and killing themselves. Again, person responsability??????

JasonG
05-08-12, 9:14 pm
I have never used anything with 1,3 so I cannot say it works or doesn't or whatever. My take on this, like many other things, is that if USED correctly is it a danger? If so, then remove it from ALL products. If used incorrectly (ABUSED) is it a danger? If so, that is where personal responsability comes into play. There are many things out there that we can get our hands on that are not good for us. Yet, we still accept the risks and use them anyway. There seems to be a prevelant lack of personal responsablilty and I don't know where it comes from. I am not saying that directly to anyone on the FORVM, I am say that in just a general sense. I think it was bullshit that ephedra was banned. It was banned due to people ABUSING it and killing themselves. Again, person responsability??????

Exactly, I agree.

PORTERHOUSE
05-08-12, 9:29 pm
I'm glad Rage doesn't have it in there because it would be pulled right, but the government getting involved, I'm not sold on this. Anything can be harmful if over used, or not used as directed. If they start getting to involved with supplements we are going to see some of our favorite supps go away.

Some people abuse alcohol, it's still legal. Smoking is absolutely stupid. If you smoke and that offends you...good. You know it's killing you. Anyway, still legal.

Also Wolf this wasn't directed at you just going off of what you were talking about.

It has more to do with the marketing and claims they make about substances with little to no research or understanding to back them up... like I said, accountability.

Carrnage
05-09-12, 1:31 am
I have never used anything with 1,3 so I cannot say it works or doesn't or whatever. My take on this, like many other things, is that if USED correctly is it a danger? If so, then remove it from ALL products. If used incorrectly (ABUSED) is it a danger? If so, that is where personal responsability comes into play. There are many things out there that we can get our hands on that are not good for us. Yet, we still accept the risks and use them anyway. There seems to be a prevelant lack of personal responsablilty and I don't know where it comes from. I am not saying that directly to anyone on the FORVM, I am say that in just a general sense. I think it was bullshit that ephedra was banned. It was banned due to people ABUSING it and killing themselves. Again, person responsability??????

You really haven't tried it yet?

Solid Dreams
05-09-12, 2:23 am
I tried a fat burner that was recommended by friends, and even on a low dose it made me feel really uncomfortable (pounding heart, etc) and had some issues with stim, sort of. Glad they're gonna do something about it.

machineman
05-09-12, 6:39 am
You really haven't tried it yet?

Nope can't say that I have.

naturalguy
05-09-12, 8:18 am
I tried it a few times, made me feel sort of like ephedra used to, very anxious, hyper and there was a crash after. Not exactly how you want to feel when training. I like to have energy but not in a jittery, anxious kind of way.

smoothballer
05-09-12, 8:33 am
I tried it a few times, made me feel sort of like ephedra used to, very anxious, hyper and there was a crash after. Not exactly how you want to feel when training. I like to have energy but not in a jittery, anxious kind of way.

The huge crash is what turn me instantly away.

Beowulf
05-09-12, 10:17 am
I have never used anything with 1,3 so I cannot say it works or doesn't or whatever. My take on this, like many other things, is that if USED correctly is it a danger? If so, then remove it from ALL products. If used incorrectly (ABUSED) is it a danger? If so, that is where personal responsability comes into play. There are many things out there that we can get our hands on that are not good for us. Yet, we still accept the risks and use them anyway. There seems to be a prevelant lack of personal responsablilty and I don't know where it comes from. I am not saying that directly to anyone on the FORVM, I am say that in just a general sense. I think it was bullshit that ephedra was banned. It was banned due to people ABUSING it and killing themselves. Again, person responsability??????

My question is, what is "correct" usage? Can you define it? Have supplement companies done clinical research on what is and isn't a safe and correct? How do you, as an individual consumer, define it--anecdotally, based on what other consumers are doing?

Think about cigarettes. Today, the smoker knows about tobacco and nicotine's specific harms. There's a large body of research on that topic. As a result, the consumer can make a good and informed decision about using cigarettes. So despite those clear and well-reported harms, if a consumer chooses to take up smoking, that's his choice (though in reality, society will ultimately bear the burden of illnesses associated with smoking).

Think about DMAA. Does a good body of literature exist on this ingredient as it is used in preworkout supplements? The short and long term issues and potential harms?The correct dosing? Contraindications? If so, please cite them. If it doesn't exist, how can you, the consumer, make a good, informed decision about using it or not using it (let along abusing it)? The sad truth is, most are relying on what their friends are doing or what they read on the internet. One could easily argue that consumers are mere guinea pigs for the supplement industry.

So to me, the more important questions are not about personal accountability, but rather supplement company accountability and also governmental responsibility--does the FDA have a responsibility in asking questions, obtaining information, and then regulating certain ingredients in order to protect us from ourselves?

I'm all for liberty and the freedom to do whatever I want and make my own choices. But the sad truth is, I don't always make good decisions. Often, consumers just can't make informed decisions when good information doesn't exist. So therefore, how can we reasonably accept the risks when we don't know what those risks are? That's the bottom line.

Imagine all those smokers at the turn of the century, thinking smoking was good for you and how cigarettes had great and healthful benefits. Do you really want to have your head in that hole and believe what the tobacco industry wants to tell you about those health benefits? Do you really want to be that consumer with respect to the supplement industry?


It has more to do with the marketing and claims they make about substances with little to no research or understanding to back them up... like I said, accountability.

machineman
05-09-12, 11:49 am
My question is, what is "correct" usage? Can you define it? Have supplement companies done clinical research on what is and isn't a safe and correct? How do you, as an individual consumer, define it--anecdotally, based on what other consumers are doing?

Think about cigarettes. Today, the smoker knows about tobacco and nicotine's specific harms. There's a large body of research on that topic. As a result, the consumer can make a good and informed decision about using cigarettes. So despite those clear and well-reported harms, if a consumer chooses to take up smoking, that's his choice (though in reality, society will ultimately bear the burden of illnesses associated with smoking).

Think about DMAA. Does a good body of literature exist on this ingredient as it is used in preworkout supplements? The short and long term issues and potential harms?The correct dosing? Contraindications? If so, please cite them. If it doesn't exist, how can you, the consumer, make a good, informed decision about using it or not using it (let along abusing it)? The sad truth is, most are relying on what their friends are doing or what they read on the internet. One could easily argue that consumers are mere guinea pigs for the supplement industry.

So to me, the more important questions are not about personal accountability, but rather supplement company accountability and also governmental responsibility--does the FDA have a responsibility in asking questions, obtaining information, and then regulating certain ingredients in order to protect us from ourselves?

I'm all for liberty and the freedom to do whatever I want and make my own choices. But the sad truth is, I don't always make good decisions. Often, consumers just can't make informed decisions when good information doesn't exist. So therefore, how can we reasonably accept the risks when we don't know what those risks are? That's the bottom line.

Imagine all those smokers at the turn of the century, thinking smoking was good for you and how cigarettes had great and healthful benefits. Do you really want to have your head in that hole and believe what the tobacco industry wants to tell you about those health benefits? Do you really want to be that consumer with respect to the supplement industry?

I am neither chemist nor doctor so no, I can't define what is safe. Can you? In cases such as this I believe the government should have some sort of process that supp companies can use in order to test the effects of new products. You are acting as though I am all for supp componaies putting whatever they feel like in the products and it is up to us, the consumer, to figure out what everything is and the potential risks. That is NOT what I am saying. I guess that if this product is that new and noone has any info about it, it shouldn't be used at all. However, if there WHERE info on it then my above statement still holds true.

Beowulf
05-09-12, 12:10 pm
I am neither chemist nor doctor so no, I can't define what is safe. Can you? In cases such as this I believe the government should have some sort of process that supp companies can use in order to test the effects of new products. You are acting as though I am all for supp componaies putting whatever they feel like in the products and it is up to us, the consumer, to figure out what everything is and the potential risks. That is NOT what I am saying. I guess that if this product is that new and noone has any info about it, it shouldn't be used at all. However, if there WHERE info on it then my above statement still holds true.

No and that's precisely my point, don't you get it? It doesn't even matter if you are a chemist or a doctor, or if I am.

No, I'm talking specifically about your comments about one ingredient in this particular thread.

What exactly are you saying then? I thought you were a proponent for responsible usage of DMAA. You asked, "if USED correctly is it a danger"? So I asked you to define how something is to be used "correctly" when there are no legitimate basis for arriving at that answer as there is a dearth of credible research on this question. Then you talked about how personal accountability is what matters and that, I think, you were saying it's up to consumers to assume the risk for themselves. To which I responded, how can consumers make good choices for themselves, assume the risk, and be accountable for their decisions when (again), there is no good basis for doing so? All we have up to now is anecdotal information about how other consumers are using the ingredient on the internet, through friends, and through the marketing done by companies that sell the ingredient. Again, how can you expect consumers to be accountable when they can't make good, informed decisions?

Am I missing what you are saying so completely and categorically?

machineman
05-09-12, 12:16 pm
No and that's precisely my point, don't you get it? It doesn't even matter if you are a chemist or a doctor, or if I am.

No, I'm talking specifically about your comments about one ingredient in this particular thread.

What exactly are you saying then?

I didn't think it was that hard to understand. Maybe it was....

As it pertains to 1,3 Dimeth. IF there is research out there that states a safe dose, then we as consumers should USE said product at said dosage. If not, we aer no longer using the product but ABUSING it. If there are potential KNOWN risks from using 1,3 Dimeth then use at your own risk. If there is NO data out there on 1,3 Dimeth DON'T use it in anything.

Beowulf
05-09-12, 12:21 pm
I didn't think it was that hard to understand. Maybe it was....

As it pertains to 1,3 Dimeth. IF there is research out there that states a safe dose, then we as consumers should USE said product at said dosage. If not, we aer no longer using the product but ABUSING it. If there are potential KNOWN risks from using 1,3 Dimeth then use at your own risk. If there is NO data out there on 1,3 Dimeth DON'T use it in anything.

See my extended comments in my previous post.

Many consumers believe that something may be safe or that it will yield no harm. Why? They believe the marketing. Whose fault is it? Naive consumers who can't discern truth from marketing? Or companies who do the marketing? At what point does the government need to step in to protect those consumers who can't educate themselves properly? Should we just throw up their hands and say, so what? That's what those consumers deserve because they're not as smart as we are? Don't we, as a responsible societ, owe it to ourselves to protect those who don't know how to protect themselves from corporations and industries that prey on consumers?

Going back to cigarettes, do you agree that it was a good thing for the government to come in and try to regulate tobacco and warn consumers of the clear risks? Or do you think the government should have stayed out of it? That it's just about personal accountability and only up to consumers to make up their own minds about tobacco based on ads put out by the tobacco industry and the studies sponsored and doctored by said industry?

machineman
05-09-12, 12:25 pm
See my extended comments in my previous post. Many consumers believe that something may be safe or that it will yield no harm. Why? They believe the marketing of supplement companies. Whose fault is it? Naive consumers who can't discern truth from marketing? Or companies who do the marketing? At what point does the FDA need to step in to protect those consumers who can't educate themselves properly? Should we just throw up their hands and say, so what? That's what those consumers deserve because they're not as smart as we are? Don't we, as a responsible, owe it to ourselves to protect those who don't know how to protect themselves from corporations and industries that prey on consumers?

Going back to cigarettes, do you agree that it was a good thing for the government to come in and try to regulate tobacco and warn consumers of the clear risks? Or do you think the government should have stayed out of it? That it's only up to consumers make up their own minds based on ads put out by the tobacco industry and the studies sponsored and doctored by big tobacco?

Seriously? I posted in my first reply that there should be some sort of governemnt program that supp companies can use to test new ingrediants to see if they are safe, what the recommended doasge should be and what long term affects there may be. I don't know what else you want?

Beowulf
05-09-12, 12:28 pm
Seriously? I posted in my first reply that there should be some sort of governemnt program that supp companies can use to test new ingrediants to see if they are safe, what the recommended doasge should be and what long term affects there may be. I don't know what else you want?

The basic thrust of your argument in this thread is that it's ultimately about personal accountability. My point is that consumers can't be accountable for making good choices when we lack good, credible information to make informed choices.

So you are saying that DMAA should be tested and regulated by the FDA to determine safety and dosing protocols?

machineman
05-09-12, 12:30 pm
The basic thrust of your argument in this thread is that it's ultimately about personal accountability. My point is that consumers can't be accountable for making good choices when we lack good, credible information to make informed choices.

So you are saying that DMAA should be tested and regulated by the FDA to determine safety and dosing protocols?

I don't care who regulates it. It should be tested to determine ALL correct protocols. If there is no testing and people want to use it......they do so at their own risk.

JasonG
05-09-12, 1:28 pm
My question is, what is "correct" usage? Can you define it? Have supplement companies done clinical research on what is and isn't a safe and correct? How do you, as an individual consumer, define it--anecdotally, based on what other consumers are doing?

Think about cigarettes. Today, the smoker knows about tobacco and nicotine's specific harms. There's a large body of research on that topic. As a result, the consumer can make a good and informed decision about using cigarettes. So despite those clear and well-reported harms, if a consumer chooses to take up smoking, that's his choice (though in reality, society will ultimately bear the burden of illnesses associated with smoking).

Think about DMAA. Does a good body of literature exist on this ingredient as it is used in preworkout supplements? The short and long term issues and potential harms?The correct dosing? Contraindications? If so, please cite them. If it doesn't exist, how can you, the consumer, make a good, informed decision about using it or not using it (let along abusing it)? The sad truth is, most are relying on what their friends are doing or what they read on the internet. One could easily argue that consumers are mere guinea pigs for the supplement industry.

So to me, the more important questions are not about personal accountability, but rather supplement company accountability and also governmental responsibility--does the FDA have a responsibility in asking questions, obtaining information, and then regulating certain ingredients in order to protect us from ourselves?

I'm all for liberty and the freedom to do whatever I want and make my own choices. But the sad truth is, I don't always make good decisions. Often, consumers just can't make informed decisions when good information doesn't exist. So therefore, how can we reasonably accept the risks when we don't know what those risks are? That's the bottom line.

Imagine all those smokers at the turn of the century, thinking smoking was good for you and how cigarettes had great and healthful benefits. Do you really want to have your head in that hole and believe what the tobacco industry wants to tell you about those health benefits? Do you really want to be that consumer with respect to the supplement industry?

Here's one study with sources: https://physsportsmed.org/doi/10.3810/psm.2011.09.1927

I get the point your trying to make and I don't necessarily disagree, but I personally don't want the government to take control of my supplements. The information is out there if you look and it's the responsible thing to do for the safety and health of your body. Two Army servicemen died and the toxicology results came back with 1,3 dimeth in their systems. I wonder if they just took one scoop or even two of the leading preworkout product on bb.com and died. I'll bet not.

For sake of argument I'm sure I can many things in my home that kill me if I choose to be stupid. All I have to do is ignore the labels. How many suicides or accidental deaths in the US result from improper use of otc pain killers? Should those be regulated? http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v100/n8/full/ajg2005305a.html <-- that source says 16,500 annually from nsaids. Only a handful have died from 1,3 and ephedra combined I believe.

I'm probably not covering all supplement companies, I know many are shady, but the preworkouts I've taken have said to start with half a dose and check for tolerance then go up to one scoop but don't exceed xx scoops.

Next post will be a cut and paste of a responsible company and their 1,3 product. Only problem is people need to read labels and check with their doctors before starting a supplement regimen. If that would happen I would bet we wouldn't have these 400 lb linemen (for example) dropping dead during conditioning in the summer while on too many stims.

JasonG
05-09-12, 1:31 pm
Label from one company:

1,3-Dimethylamylamine (1,3-DMAA or simply DMAA), also known as methylhexaneamine or 1,3-Dimethylpentylamine, has been used medicinally as a decongestant and was most recently patented in 1971 by Eli Lilly as an active constituent in a process for treating hypertrophied gums(1). Since it’s formal introduction into the sports supplement world in 2005(2), DMAA or a source of it such as geranium oil or the plant Pelargonium Graveolens, can be found as an ingredient in dozens of over the counter supplements around the world, including pre-workout ergogenic aids such as XXXXXX XXXXXX!, almost always in combination with other stimulants such as Caffeine or Synephrine HCL(3).Because it is rarely found in pure form, we answered the requests from XXXXXXXX customers to provide unadulterated DMAA. There are a multitude of chemicals found in sources of DMAA like rose geranium oil (4), so True XXXXXX DMAA is synthesized to ensure 99% purity. Anecdotal reports suggest that 25-50mg oral doses (depending upon a person’s size) induce a state of alertness and moderate euphoria, free from much of the jitteriness and elevated heart rate (tachycardia) that often accompanies stimulants such as caffeine and ephedrine. However, DMAA has been reported to elevate blood pressure so its use would be ill-advised for those with hypertension. (As always, check with your physician before consuming any dietary supplement.) The positive effects of DMAA typically last 4-5 hours but can also include a distinct, unpleasant “crash” thereafter. Many users report development of tolerance after several days of daily use, so DMAA might be better used only infrequently. Users also find that caffeine enhances the pleasant effects of moderate doses of DMAA, which is why XXXXXXX included it (conservatively at 25mg per dose) in XXXXXXX! At doses as low as 75-100mg, many consumers of DMAA report nausea, stomach upset, paranoia, sweating and even tremors. (Larger doses produce exponentially more long-lasting unpleasant effects.) The negative effects of high(er) doses and the quick development of tolerance to DMAA will constrain most individuals to moderate and infrequent use of DMAA, but XXXXXX suggests erring on the side of caution especially in the case of DMAA.Supplement UseAs noted above, DMAA should be consumed in moderation (25mg doses, used on non-successive days), as doses over 50mg may cause a “crash” after a period of pleasant effects, and higher doses may lead to prolonged sickness associated with toxicity. To enhance DMAA’s effects on alertness and productivity, it can be combined with Caffeine by simply adding it to one’s morning coffee on occasion, or using xxxxxx’s pre-packaged energy product xxxxxxxx!Ingredients 1,3-dimethylamylamine, or Geranamine. General Warnings This material is EXTREMELY hazardous if not dosed properly. A milligram sensitive scale must be used to ensure that the proper dosage is achieved. Please be extremely careful when dosing this material. Improper dosing may result in sickness, injury, or death. If you are currently pregnant or nursing, consult a physician prior to use. Keep out of the reach of children. Allergen Warnings Although this product may not contain one or all of the following, this product is manufactured in a facility that handles milk, soy, egg, peanut, nut, tree, fish, crustaceans/shellfish, and wheat products.DISCLAIMER: The above description is provided for information only and does not constitute medical advice. Please consult your physician or the appropriately licensed professional before engaging in a program of exercise or nutritional supplementation. No information in this site has been reviewed by the FDA. No product is intended to treat, diagnose, or cure any disease.

References 1. Kosti, C.M. Process for the treatment of hypertrophied gums. United States Patent Office. #3,574,859. 4.13.71. http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument;jsessionid=81B947A073AB54AD51D2CB 55C3111519.espacenet_levelx_prod_4?CC=US&NR=3574859A&KC=A&FT=D&date=19710413&DB=&locale=en_EP 2. Proviant Technologies. Geranimine: Constituent of flower oil sold as an integral component of nutritional supplements. United States Patent and Trademark Office. #78542697. 1.23.06. http://tess2.uspto.gov/ 3. Fancier, S. Methylhexanamine. 2011 [Accessed 6.15.11]; (Drugs-Forum Basic Drug FAQ on Methylhexaneamine, aka 1,3 Dimethylamylamine.) Available from: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Methylhexanamine 4. Duke, J., Dr. Duke's Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases. [Online Database]. 2011. http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/

Beowulf
05-14-12, 11:14 am
Here's one study with sources: https://physsportsmed.org/doi/10.3810/psm.2011.09.1927

I get the point your trying to make and I don't necessarily disagree, but I personally don't want the government to take control of my supplements. The information is out there if you look and it's the responsible thing to do for the safety and health of your body. Two Army servicemen died and the toxicology results came back with 1,3 dimeth in their systems. I wonder if they just took one scoop or even two of the leading preworkout product on bb.com and died. I'll bet not.

For sake of argument I'm sure I can many things in my home that kill me if I choose to be stupid. All I have to do is ignore the labels. How many suicides or accidental deaths in the US result from improper use of otc pain killers? Should those be regulated? http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v100/n8/full/ajg2005305a.html <-- that source says 16,500 annually from nsaids. Only a handful have died from 1,3 and ephedra combined I believe.

I'm probably not covering all supplement companies, I know many are shady, but the preworkouts I've taken have said to start with half a dose and check for tolerance then go up to one scoop but don't exceed xx scoops.

Next post will be a cut and paste of a responsible company and their 1,3 product. Only problem is people need to read labels and check with their doctors before starting a supplement regimen. If that would happen I would bet we wouldn't have these 400 lb linemen (for example) dropping dead during conditioning in the summer while on too many stims.

The information is not out there. That's my point. You cite one study, and that may be a good place to start but it is certainly by no means the final word (plus, that study itself has severe limitations). More to the point, you want to see many studies over time. In short, we don't have a credible body of research on the effects and impact of DMAA. Therefore, as a consumer you can't make a good, informed decision. That's my basic contention. I agree with you that we need to be responsible and accountable for our decisions, but again, we can't be when credible information doesn't exist.

We're not talking about accidental overdoses either. I agree with you, harm associated with NSAID use, for example, is pretty significant and leads to many deaths every year. But my point is, that people can learn about the harms because there is a body of research that shows those harms. Therefore, people can make good, informed decisions. Whether they do or not, that's another matter entirely (goes to your point, but not mine).

Any purported "research" or "science" from a company, I immediately dismiss. If that's where you are getting your information, I'd wouldn't feel too confident.

Beowulf
05-14-12, 11:23 am
What I find interesting is that as company who marketed DMAA now remove it from their products, they are touting their revised formulas as being even better than the one with DMAA. Classic marketing, lol.

Bruiser
05-14-12, 11:55 am
The information is not out there. That's my point. You cite one study, and that may be a good place to start but it is certainly by no means the final word (plus, that study itself has severe limitations). More to the point, you want to see many studies over time. In short, we don't have a credible body of research on the effects and impact of DMAA. Therefore, as a consumer you can't make a good, informed decision. That's my basic contention. I agree with you that we need to be responsible and accountable for our decisions, but again, we can't be when credible information doesn't exist.

We're not talking about accidental overdoses either. I agree with you, harm associated with NSAID use, for example, is pretty significant and leads to many deaths every year. But my point is, that people can learn about the harms because there is a body of research that shows those harms. Therefore, people can make good, informed decisions. Whether they do or not, that's another matter entirely (goes to your point, but not mine).

Any purported "research" or "science" from a company, I immediately dismiss. If that's where you are getting your information, I'd wouldn't feel too confident.

Damn it! How dare you make me agree with you again! Lol.

Places like Australia banned it close to a year ago (I think). Over there it's been used as a party drug. People were buying it in bulk and using it straight without proper dosing. It's just like ephedra/ephedrine all over again. It just takes a few idiots to ruin it for everybody else. But like ephedra/ephedrine, there are so many different natural and synthetic variations of it that it will never completely disappear from the market.

JasonG
05-14-12, 12:11 pm
The information is not out there. That's my point. You cite one study, and that may be a good place to start but it is certainly by no means the final word (plus, that study itself has severe limitations). More to the point, you want to see many studies over time. In short, we don't have a credible body of research on the effects and impact of DMAA. Therefore, as a consumer you can't make a good, informed decision. That's my basic contention. I agree with you that we need to be responsible and accountable for our decisions, but again, we can't be when credible information doesn't exist.

We're not talking about accidental overdoses either. I agree with you, harm associated with NSAID use, for example, is pretty significant and leads to many deaths every year. But my point is, that people can learn about the harms because there is a body of research that shows those harms. Therefore, people can make good, informed decisions. Whether they do or not, that's another matter entirely (goes to your point, but not mine).

Any purported "research" or "science" from a company, I immediately dismiss. If that's where you are getting your information, I'd wouldn't feel too confident.

I understand where you are coming from and I respect that. I'd just hate to see this trend exploding into a much larger ban of supplements that don't have reports of adverse effects but pulled anyway.

Beowulf
05-14-12, 2:06 pm
I understand where you are coming from and I respect that. I'd just hate to see this trend exploding into a much larger ban of supplements that don't have reports of adverse effects but pulled anyway.

While consumers are ultimately responsible and accountable (after all, with inadequate research, they can always choose not to take something--unfortunately the average consumer is not that sophisticated), I think that supplement companies shoulder more of the blame when it comes to FDA scrutiny. How they formulate, market and make claims for their product goes a lot farther in having the Feds monitor and regulate the industry. So for me, it's not the government meddling as much as companies sometimes being irresponsible in search of profit. While it's easy to say buyer beware, ultimately, consumers who don't know what they are doing cause trouble for everyone else.

Universal Rep
05-16-12, 2:38 pm
I understand where you are coming from and I respect that. I'd just hate to see this trend exploding into a much larger ban of supplements that don't have reports of adverse effects but pulled anyway.

I think if that's gonna happen, it's wuz gonna happen whether DMAA existed or not...

AJP1
05-22-12, 4:59 pm
Was never a big fan of 1,3.

Universal Rep
05-23-12, 12:36 pm
Was never a big fan of 1,3.

Soon, likely no fans at all...

Mr. Dead
05-23-12, 12:42 pm
Soon, likely no fans at all...
Yep...