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Goldstone
10-04-13, 8:05 pm
I realize that's probably an odd title for a thread, but hear me out.

I'm toying around with a theory I've had for awhile with stance in regards to knee anatomy. Some people have knee caps pointing straight forward, some are shifted off to the side a bit. My theory is that lining your foot position in-line with your knee cap determines just how much to point your toes out.

- If a person's patellas (knee caps) naturally face straight ahead, they might be better with a more toes forward approach. Maybe even a bit closer stance. High bar placement can help with this form as well.

- Patellas that aren't dead center might indicate a bit wider stance with toes angled out a bit.


I know for myself, I've always had my toes angled out a bit when squatting. It's always felt very natural, and I have yet to have (knock on wood) any knee issues squatting or otherwise.

There's obviously more to squatting than where your toes point, but I do think it's a crucial element for taking your squat to the next level as you advance in weight. Knee safety is also a big concern.


I've also noticed width of stance seems to be a factor as well. We've all seen Chuck V and his feet basically touching the sides of the mono as his stance is so wide. There's also Yarymbash that has a narrow stance and divebombs absurd amounts of weight. Both men have found their proper stance and have been kicking ass with it. Marshall "Freakshow" Johnson has a very wide stance, and he's destroying well over a grand any time he wants at this point.

That being said I've seen a lot of people copying Chuck V, going as wide as possible, without much to show for it. Again, I think this is where anatomy comes into play.

- If your ankles are in front of your knees in the bottom of the squat, your stance might be a bit too wide. Hip flexibility is also a factor here.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, watch any of David Hoff's videos. His stance is what I think of in terms of knee/ankle relationship in the squat. He's arguably the best squatter around right now, and possibly ever. Not as wide as Chuck and squatting even bigger weights now.

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on this. I've always approached powerlifting from a very technical standpoint, and feel it's key to taking your lifting to the next level. There are several monsters on this forum that make what I've accomplished look Bush League in comparison, so I'm in no way trying to say the above is fact. Just some ideas I've been kicking around.

Aggression
10-04-13, 8:10 pm
Honestly, I don't get too much into that type of stuff when it comes to lifting. In a way, you're right; every body is different. But for me, I take that as far as 'try different stances/positions on your own and see what feels/works best' and that's as far as I go. I'm sure a lot of people go much deeper, like yourself, so hopefully they can chime in here. I love to lift and I love to progress. But once my 'hobby' starts to become almost like school/homework, then its time for me to back off a bit.

Goldstone
10-04-13, 8:51 pm
Honestly, I don't get too much into that type of stuff when it comes to lifting. In a way, you're right; every body is different. But for me, I take that as far as 'try different stances/positions on your own and see what feels/works best' and that's as far as I go. I'm sure a lot of people go much deeper, like yourself, so hopefully they can chime in here. I love to lift and I love to progress. But once my 'hobby' starts to become almost like school/homework, then its time for me to back off a bit.

I'm with you, Aggression. This is something I've kind of paid more attention to as time goes on. But I'm not that guy pulling out calculators and calculating angles hahaha. I'm not the guy watching my videos over and over and over, analyzing everything. I have a job, wife, and school, so my lifting remains as it's one of my passions in life.

I was just curious in a more broad sense for others and their approach of if anyone would read it and think, "Yeah, that actually is how I squat" or "No, Goldstone, you're an idiot."

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel like a T-Nation article on squatting. I may very well be overthinking it, but like you've said, I just played around with stance until it felt "right". My above post is something I just put together after the fact.

Firefist
10-04-13, 11:45 pm
Very interesting point of discussion.

I recently had a hamstring injury that kept me out for 5-6 weeks. First day back, I was trying to adjust my feet around. I tried squatting a little more narrow this time around with my hands in more (saw my partner doing it and figured id try) and my feet more straight forward than out. Granted it was my 2rd week back from the injury, I couldnt even get close to hitting my usual triple for a single.

I came back the next week with my old wide-ass stance with my hands out wide and toes pointing way out as well. Nailed my triple no problem.

Immediately after reading your post, i lifted up my shorts to see what was going on with my caps. Looking at the caps themselves, they were pointing hella out. But then I remembered; my feet point out while naturally standing around, so consequently, my caps will too. So for me, my toes pointed way out is already natural to me, and obviously the squat feels better for me when I hit it that way.

Interesting indeed. I usually am with the "do what works for you" crowd, but I love biomechanics and the why behind everything too, so I'm curious to see what others gotta say.

Dingo
10-06-13, 11:45 pm
Remember you've got 3 major joints involved in the squat with regards to foot placement, the ankle, the knee and the hip. The wider your stance, the farther your toes should angle out. A general rule I use is that the 2nd/3rd toe should track in line with the patella. People with externally rotated patellas generally have tightness (over active) in muscles that are responsible for external rotation of the femur and tibia. You should be able to externally and internally rotate your knee from a standing position on one leg, stand on your left foot and rotate your right knee, cause your foot to rotate to the right, but generate the movement from your hip/glutes not your ankle. The same can be done for the tibia from a seated position. Sit with your legs at 90 degrees, raise either and rotate your tibia by contracting muscles in either side of the hamstrings. Your entire lower leg should rotate outward, again do not generate the movement from the ankle. With each of these movements you can see the patella rotate outward, but you can still rotate the ankle inward. This is where the misalignment you see in people occurs, ankles inwardly rotated with femur/tibia externally rotated. Just my .02 on the subject.

Great observation though, and very helpful in avoiding injuries.

Dingo
10-07-13, 12:06 am
http://www.kean.edu/~jeadams/docs/Kinesiology/Kines_Power_Points/Kines_Chap_10.pdf. You may find this interesting.

Goldstone
10-07-13, 11:51 am
Remember you've got 3 major joints involved in the squat with regards to foot placement, the ankle, the knee and the hip. The wider your stance, the farther your toes should angle out. A general rule I use is that the 2nd/3rd toe should track in line with the patella. People with externally rotated patellas generally have tightness (over active) in muscles that are responsible for external rotation of the femur and tibia. You should be able to externally and internally rotate your knee from a standing position on one leg, stand on your left foot and rotate your right knee, cause your foot to rotate to the right, but generate the movement from your hip/glutes not your ankle. The same can be done for the tibia from a seated position. Sit with your legs at 90 degrees, raise either and rotate your tibia by contracting muscles in either side of the hamstrings. Your entire lower leg should rotate outward, again do not generate the movement from the ankle. With each of these movements you can see the patella rotate outward, but you can still rotate the ankle inward. This is where the misalignment you see in people occurs, ankles inwardly rotated with femur/tibia externally rotated. Just my .02 on the subject.

Great observation though, and very helpful in avoiding injuries.


Awesome post, Dingo. Thanks for the insight.

I've always looked at guys like Jeremy Frey who's taken this kind of analysis to their training and then some. His results speak for themselves, and I definitely think there's something to this.



http://www.kean.edu/~jeadams/docs/Kinesiology/Kines_Power_Points/Kines_Chap_10.pdf. You may find this interesting.

This is beautiful! Thank you for this. Going to take some time later this week to read over it thoroughly after my exams and such are done today through Wednesday.

Goldstone
10-07-13, 12:52 pm
Response from a previous training partner that got this thought process started:



I have thought a bit about the stance issue.
I think it has much more to do with the length of your femur vs. torso or total leg length which
impacts the ability to stay upright.

- if femur is relatively shorter, you can use a narrower stance and remain upright
- if femur is longer, you need to use a wider stance to stay upright

Related to foot angle, that seems to be function of hip flexibility. Less flexible, need to turn
out the toes more.

Chuck: flexible hips, long femur = wide stance feet forward
Carroll: not as flexible hips, short femur = narrower stance with toes out

People like me suck both ways: inflexible, and long femur = wide stance with toes out, to the
extent I can without losing my balance.

Dingo
10-08-13, 12:00 am
I'm no power lifter, just a guy trying to stay as strong and as balanced as possible. Powerlifting seems to require a wide stance to draw the glutes and adductors into action.

For giggles try to squat holding a 6" diameter foam roller between your legs, just above your knees, between your vastus medialus, tear drop. For most people this requires a narrow stance with their feet parallel to each other, toes pointed forward.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=BsRVH8dwDDM. Eric beard is pretty good at addressing corrective issues. The 2x4 on top of the 10's in the video is a bit excessive for most people but it demonstrates the point about ankle flexibility.