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View Full Version : Strict Form vs. Cheating



BigPoppaLump
01-17-07, 1:43 pm
Everyone knows that without proper form, you may as well be spinning your tires, looking for injury. What i'm proposing is that we get a sticky goin' that has videos or pictures off other web sites, or better yet, senior veterans of the iron forum.

What does everyone think?

Strength and Honor

BPL

NumeroUno
01-17-07, 2:24 pm
Good idea, I haven't found any videos like this. But I'd sure appreciate seeing some pros get it on. (I haven't ordered animal arms/chest yet)

Liftbig21
01-17-07, 9:32 pm
Yo straight up i just got home from training and it was crowded with a bunch of people who dont belong there all they do is take up machines and sit there and get in the way of people who wanna train.....How many of you cant stand the motherfuckers who are curling and lower the bar not even 90 degrees and they do it with heavy weight thinkin their gods gift...or curling in the squat rack...that shit makes my blood boil...tell me what you think of that boys

spartan300
01-17-07, 9:50 pm
These words of wisdom were imparted to me early in my bodybuilding career by an extremely large mountain of a man who will remain nameless "There are two ways to lift son, MY WAY AND THE WRONG WAY!"

anselmo
01-17-07, 10:06 pm
To each his own, dude. If he wants to take up space and curl like a dumbass then let him. My gym is full of those people, but they have a right to be there just like me. They can train shitty all they want, I know my way is the proper way. Thats why I'm where I am, and they will always be below me.

Snake
01-17-07, 10:23 pm
Hey man I got no prob with the boys and girls in the gym who are still green, as long as they know there place on the fuckin food chain and stay outta the way of the real athletes. The only thing that bugs me more then watchin someone do an excercise wrong is when they monopolize multiple pieces of equipment and do EVERYTHING wrong lol.

Hollywood
01-17-07, 10:57 pm
thats why i hate lifting at huge commercial gyms.. i know a lot of people here lift at those places cause its the only place close to them, but nothing pisses me off more; guys walkin around with their cutoff shirts who do nothing but chest and bi's, its garbage. if you wanna walk around to impress the girls, go to a nightclub with all those gotti's, youre taking up space in my gym.

TDurden
01-17-07, 11:09 pm
This is why i bought my own equipment too many ***** ass pussies dont give a flying fuck about their health and well being just wanna make themselves feel more like a man for 30 mins a week fuck em

dirtydean12
01-18-07, 1:02 am
yesterday i had the pleasure of watching some 140 pound dumbass swing 60lb db's like he was really curling them, all while making some wannabe hardcore face a foot away from the mirror

randomality
01-18-07, 3:40 am
yesterday i had the pleasure of watching some 140 pound dumbass swing 60lb db's like he was really curling them, all while making some wannabe hardcore face a foot away from the mirror

ahh yes... it's always fun watching someone try and curl a weight they can't even deadlift...

my gym really sucks right now... people do every variation of the curl in every freakin angle... but look at the guys with the big arms, and what are they doing? deads, squats, rows, pull ups... the basics. they know that to have strong arms, you need a strong foundation.

IronLeague
01-18-07, 3:48 am
Heres a little advice.. Stop paying attention to everyone else and focus on the task at hand. You are there for a reason, I'm pretty sure it's not people watching. I'm sure I used to be one of the guys you speak of when I first got my feet wet.

As for cheat curling.... When it comes to barbell curls, it's a "mass movement" nothing wrong with putting a little bit of lower back into it on your last couple reps.. It's not an isolation exersize.

Respect,
IronLeague

Freak
01-18-07, 12:05 pm
Heres a little advice.. Stop paying attention to everyone else and focus on the task at hand. You are there for a reason, I'm pretty sure it's not people watching. I'm sure I used to be one of the guys you speak of when I first got my feet wet.

As for cheat curling.... When it comes to barbell curls, it's a "mass movement" nothing wrong with putting a little bit of lower back into it on your last couple reps.. It's not an isolation exersize.

Respect,
IronLeague

Agreed... If what others are doing distracts you, then push the ignore button. Don't let 'em hold ya back.

stumblin54
01-18-07, 12:34 pm
cheat curls=bad...they're a waste of time, be strict, and results will follow.

peterpyper
01-18-07, 6:55 pm
when u curl remember to bend the knees a little and toes pointed up dont grip the floor with em

ironshaolin
01-19-07, 10:42 pm
There's this dude at my gym who thinks the only way to get big and strong is to lift as heavy as fuckin possible. Now, I agree 100%, but if you only have a 1 rep max of 155, why would you try and bench 225? This guy I always see his "bicep" workout, which really consists of him power cleaning a 110 pound easy-bar, holding it by his chin, sitting down, then doing what I have dubbed "idiot reps" where you let it down 1/4 the way then jerk it back to the top, do that 10 times and think you had an awsome set. The reason the preacher bench exists is to take away any type of body momentum.

xman
02-14-07, 7:44 pm
wen i see guys try to go heavy on deads i often see them bend their back a little... so obviously since their way bigger i look up to em'. im trying to go up on deads ...therefor i go heavy. will i go up faster if a cheat a little arching my back and getting the heavy weight up .. or is that me being a pussy and i should do the medium weight right. cuz ive been stuck on the same weigth for a while now ... and im anktious to go up i do 4 sets 5-8 reps...and one burnout.

Dunk
02-14-07, 7:47 pm
Hey man, deads is not the exercise to cheat on, if your lower back is rounding you have too much weight on the bar, and same goes for those guys. Its best to use the weights you can properly use and live to lift another day instead of going big for one day and being laid off for a few weeks, and risk having back pain and shit for the rest of your life. play it safe dude

CAPO190
02-14-07, 7:50 pm
like poster above me said, cheating on deadlifts could cause some serious back problems in the future. it's okay to cheat once in a while, like when you're trying to get that ego 1rm...but when you're just liftin, use proper form

Frank_The_Tank
02-14-07, 7:55 pm
I would consider rounding your lower back to be bad form on the dead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1MgbRluFGQ

But nobody is going to tell Jouko Ahola that.

Rage
02-14-07, 7:57 pm
Deads no, Squats no. Your multi-joint exercies have to be done with good form. Some of your single joint exercises you can cheat a bit to get the most out of them but you have to use some common sense.

never_2_big
02-14-07, 8:00 pm
with a lift like this its important that you check your ego at the door! just because some guys are liftin heavy with dodgy form doesnt mean you should follow them. you can cause serious damage if you cheat on your form, so stay strick and your weights will go up in time.

MadeOfScars
02-14-07, 8:05 pm
I agree with everyone else. I know from experience that if you round your back it will cause injury. I was doing heavy deadlifts about a year ago and that is when I injured my back. Through months of going to a Chiropractor I finally have it under control. But I can not deadlift as much and it is really easy to throw out. I have done it from time to time. So take everyones advice and use strick for with weight you can handle.

eblnyc
02-14-07, 8:41 pm
form is very important! bad form causes pulled muscles and major injury! you dont want to go to the doctor and them tell you that you be out for months or you will never lift again! that would suck!

Maccabee
02-14-07, 11:03 pm
I dont believe its a good thing to cheat on compound exercises, especially deadlifts. There is a reason why its called cheating because cheating is not good, and one day its gonna catch you and then your in trouble. Other then that Good luck with the deads.

Big Jawn
02-14-07, 11:08 pm
I'm going against the grain here, I'm a deadlift specialist...think a young Sgt.Rock hahaha, so I've tweaked my deadlift form many a time. It depends where your cheating on the dead, you don't want to fuck around with the weight as its grinding up your shins/thigh. Nor do you want too round your back in favor of pulling more weight.
BUT...a slight round of the upper back is natural, especially with near maximal weights.

Kiwi129
02-15-07, 2:13 am
A few months back I was doing a strength focused program where progressive overload was the whole focus (although it is on almost any workout...) and I ended up twinging my back a little bit from trying too hard to increase the deadlift weight and not keeping my form good. My back is fine now, but boy I couldn't roll my ass out of bed right for at least a week, and it was from pulling 185 for 6 reps or something. Deads fucked me up good for cheating. I wouldn't do it.

BigTruck
02-15-07, 2:24 am
numbers are only important to those that put value them. that being said, i think its better to drop the weight and focus on the form. deads are a compound movement, and as such, you can easily strain or pull something -- like your back. ohers will say its okay -- i say stay true to the form. continue to challenge yourself and focus on new horizons, but not at the sacrafice of form.

The Wanderer
02-15-07, 10:51 am
Rounding your lower back is bad, but I have a question what about rounding the upper back a bit. My lower back stays straight but the upper back is slightly rounded where my traps are, any clues to what is going on?

MO_500057
02-15-07, 2:01 pm
This is a question that people have wondered about for years. There is always a debate about form. I believe on you big 3, Squats, Deads, Bench that form is key. Remember you're there for to get bigger not hurt yourself. I used to just try to pick up weight, learned my lesson. I think it's ok to slack everyonce and a while on some things. For example I wont always lock out on some chest workouts or I wont do FOM on some arms, but I always try to use proper form on the big 3.

Liftbig21
02-16-07, 12:48 am
How the hell do you round your lower back? Ive never ever noticed that during deadlifts.

Hollywood
02-16-07, 12:55 am
Like all these other guys have said, form is really important. I'm a big enforcer on good form for a couple of reasons. One, if you're sticking with strict form, you're getting the most out of your lifts. If your body is loose and your arms/back are swaying all over the place, chances are you're not working your target muscle group to its potential. Second, I cant count the number of times I've seen/heard of people getting injured because of bad form. Not just short term, but long term injuries too. There is a joke guy at my gym who tries to curl 140s (not kidding) by dropping them all the way down and swaying his back into it, its the worst form I have ever seen in my entire life. But, the guys walks bent over and looks like Quazymoto. Coincidence? I don't think so.

king1
02-28-07, 11:41 pm
Is it better to train with very strict form or cheat and use heavy weights? You always hear that form is everything but when you see most training videos the pro's use horrible form. Bent over rows standing nearly upright, dumbell flys that look like presses, dumbell curls that are almost front raises, i see it all the time, and from the biggest guys none the less. I cheat a little on the exercises that it seems relatively safe to, but need some advice. Should i use strict form or cheat on my heavy sets?

NickSP
03-01-07, 12:10 am
http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=2549&highlight=form

king1
03-01-07, 11:22 pm
I wasnt asking about deadlift form....bad form on deads is just dangerous

Kiwi129
03-01-07, 11:29 pm
Well... when you get up to 24-25" arms you can do short reps on curls and flys too. They use the best form they can with their given size. Know what I mean?

Dunk
03-01-07, 11:32 pm
You can cheat every now and then but Don't be cheating on every set and rep

hjayss
03-02-07, 5:13 am
To be strict on every rep man that I think will not help you gain wise. I think it is good get that last 1 or 2 reps out on the last set you know. That gets you ready for the next time you blast that part you know.

Nas
03-02-07, 5:22 am
" The way you grow is to move weight. You do not necessarily sacrifice form for weight, but it is OK to cheat a bit; cheating to grow is a principle that is often overlooked, but it fuckin works." (in "Back to the basics" -Schak)

never_2_big
03-02-07, 8:30 am
" The way you grow is to move weight. You do not necessarily sacrifice form for weight, but it is OK to cheat a bit; cheating to grow is a principle that is often overlooked, but it fuckin works." (in "Back to the basics" -Schak)

i was gonna say the same thing, sounds better comin from schack though

ldskenpo
03-02-07, 11:46 am
On your first set while warming up, use the best form, as you progress into work sets its ok to cheat a bit- as stated by Schak.
i normally consider a rep good unless my form gets so bad it doesnt look like what i was doing. naturally some exercises do not lend themselves to cheating- such as deads, press behind necks,squats, theres more but these stick out most right now.

envy524
03-22-07, 5:59 pm
i have been lifting on and off for about 2 years now. but im getting back into the full swing right now working every day and cycling suppliments. but i notice my form is sloppy somewhat. should i go about doing less weight more times or just watch myself alot more and lift the weight alot slower? or anything else?

Rage
03-22-07, 9:25 pm
Use a weight you can manage with good form for at least the initial reps and then a little cheating on the last 2 or 3 is sometimes helpful for putting on more size and strength. I wouldn't make a habit of it on every exercise.

SomeDayI'llBeXL
03-22-07, 9:26 pm
Back off the weight untill you find what you can handle with good form. Uou dont need to lift like Jane Fonda, but swinging up the weights and shit like that wont do you much good. Eat like a horse, lift as heavy as possible and the numbers will come.

musclealchemist
03-22-07, 9:28 pm
keep a reasonable amount of weight, but dont go so low its to easy. Try to find a perfect balance and make sure your form is good solid before you start using heavy weight.

Hikeon3
03-23-07, 12:52 am
Lower your weight a little bit, break your bad habits, form some good habits, and then increase your weight.

Always warm up light, then push it heavy. Injury free.

stumblin54
03-23-07, 1:19 am
Sloppy form usually happens because too much weight is being used. Lighten up and use strict form. Peace.

Stumblin

Tron
03-23-07, 1:43 am
Use a weight you can manage with good form for at least the initial reps and then a little cheating on the last 2 or 3 is sometimes helpful for putting on more size and strength. I wouldn't make a habit of it on every exercise.

Great post. Dead on.

Phil800101
03-23-07, 3:21 am
As it has been said, I think by Machine (although I could be wrong), when you enter the gym "check your ego at the door." You will make gains faster by lifting somewhat less weight with proper form versus heavier weight with sloppy form. Plus, you are much less likely to injure yourself when using proper form.

Hollow
03-23-07, 2:20 pm
Lower the weight to maintain good form.

T_N_Muscle
03-23-07, 3:05 pm
i have been lifting on and off for about 2 years now. but im getting back into the full swing right now working every day and cycling suppliments. but i notice my form is sloppy somewhat. should i go about doing less weight more times or just watch myself alot more and lift the weight alot slower? or anything else?

SLOPPY DOESNT BUILD STURDY TEMPLES....... CLEAN IT UP, FORM IS EVERYTHING

ChrisG
03-23-07, 3:11 pm
Yea man if you lower the weight a little bit to something you can handle better you should feel it a lot better the next day compared to just slinging the weight up. If you do it slow and controlled then your muscle is actually getting hit all over instead of just barely getting worked from using your entire body to sling it up.

spanish.iron
03-23-07, 7:09 pm
lower weight with perfect form has the same, if not better, impact than higher weight with shit form. Don't fuck around with your body... you only get one.

spartan300
03-23-07, 7:57 pm
i have been lifting on and off for about 2 years now. but im getting back into the full swing right now working every day and cycling suppliments. but i notice my form is sloppy somewhat. should i go about doing less weight more times or just watch myself alot more and lift the weight alot slower? or anything else?

You have to create a mind to muscle connection. Etch those neuro pathways!
You can do this simply by backing off your poundages and re-introducing the enhanced version of the movement. Be sure you have a thorough understanding of each exercise's form and function before attempting this.

The_Beast
03-23-07, 8:25 pm
Just to be the Thread Asshole, "Bad Form" for Some Workouts is Crucial to gaining Mass (Ie:Cheat Curls, Heavy Upright Rows, Push Press)....i am Hardcore Believer in Having good form on mostly all your workouts, but on the other hand, using alittle back to Crank out the last few reps of Heavy Ez Bar Curls is a must. Look at Arnolds Early Years, 20yrs old, 245lbs...Cheat and Heavy EZ bar curls that he Mostly Relied on alone, gave him some of the Most Massive Biceps of his time. But yeah, on the other thought, if your Curling with 25's 35's 45's on the Bar, with bad form for the 1st anitial Rep onward, Drop down the Weight bro. Like the others said, leave your Ego at the Door.-

The_Beast

darkside64
03-23-07, 11:26 pm
I have seen a wide variety of what people call good form. From Branch Warren training to people like wrath(who in my opinion uses perfect form). Some exercises need a little body language like side laterals and so on. I can speak from experience that when I started going heavy and using my body in a way that was productive is when I my physique transformed. Like Coleman says" Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder but no one wants to lift heavy ass weight.

cesmeister
03-24-07, 5:55 am
you're not in the gym to impress anyone. leave your ego at the door and do the weight you can do with good form. i remember in high school so many kids would brag about how much they could lift, and when i saw them lift they half repped the shit out of the weight. just keep good form and you'll be fine brother, the weight will come

The Wanderer
03-24-07, 12:09 pm
When my form gets sloppy I tend to keep the weight sonstant but lower the reps. Use a slightly slower speed and in a few weeks you will be back on top.

Gainer65
03-24-07, 12:12 pm
I believe cheating once and a while to get those last couple reps can be a good thing,but having sloppy form all the time will only lead to injuries, and you'll look like a dork.

Phil800101
03-29-07, 10:08 pm
As it has been said, I think by Machine (although I could be wrong), when you enter the gym "check your ego at the door."

My bad, it wasn't Machine, but Vinny who said this. I got this from an article in the AOM entitled "Stick To The Basics," by Vinny. He says:

"My first advice to serious lifters is this: Leave your ego at the door. It's not about how much you can lift, but how you lift it."

Good stuff. Anyway, just wanted to give credit where credit is due.

Wreck
03-30-07, 10:41 am
Like everyone else said good form is key, however there is a time and a place for a few cheat reps to put on additional mass. If you end up doing a couple cheat reps at the end of a set because your a badass and your gonna get the amount of reps you said you were, make the negative extra slow. If I do a few cheat reps on barbell curls for instance, I like to try and stop it from going down as much as I can on the negative and let the weight force itself down.

Lowdown5
06-21-07, 12:16 pm
After my workout today, in the locker room I hear these two dudes debating proper form versus amount of weight lifted. Both are making good points and bringing up some valid reasons to consider either notion. The proper form guy says that by using good form you isolate the target muscle and make sure that it is hit properly. The heavy weight guy says that overload is the only way to go and that form can be sloppy as he put it and still be effective. I just listened and decided to put it out here and see what the folks here thought.

Register your thoughts and why if you want. It ain't no scientific study, just what you think.

Maxhole
06-21-07, 12:28 pm
Ya know, thats definantly an arguable debate, and as everything, thy both have there up's and down's. Goin' heavy is good, but, if your form is shit, then you risk getting injured! Goin' with form is good too, but, then you risk, not getting bigger, faster.

So, I suppose try to find a happy medium somewhere and stick to it.

brandonA
06-21-07, 12:28 pm
Bad form will only lead to injuries and missing training...When going heavy and you have to cheat a bit, that is ok, but I always make sure to do 95% min of the reps with as perftect of form as I can, If I feel that the weight is too much and my form is gone to shit and I may hurt myself...i strip some weight and get back to it.....Good form is the most important thing...

-B

djzack
06-21-07, 12:32 pm
I'd have to agree with the guy about the form. If one has good form, then he is targeting that particular muscle/muscles so it's getting the maximum workout, and it will get bigger, plus you don't have to worry about the math problem. heavy weights + sloppy form = INJURY!

ghost
06-21-07, 12:36 pm
better get your form down before you try lifting heavy.

qbmurderer73
06-21-07, 1:16 pm
I think more of a happy medium is where to go. Form is important in all lifts but there are some lifts that you can load up the weight and cheat a little bit (barbell curls, barbell rows, etc.) I think that your form should be good for the most part but on those heavy lifts for the last couple of reps cheating and throwing up the weights gonna show growth (baring that you don't feel like your going to get injure yourself).

dominate77
06-21-07, 1:37 pm
Someone asked this question on Markus Ruhls MD column..he answered by saying it's important to use good form, especially for beginners, but once you get better at making the mind muscle connection, getting a little sloppier so you can go heavier isn't bad, and that it was one of the only ways to smash through plateaus

spyderman4g63
06-21-07, 1:44 pm
I think more of a happy medium is where to go. Form is important in all lifts but there are some lifts that you can load up the weight and cheat a little bit (barbell curls, barbell rows, etc.) I think that your form should be good for the most part but on those heavy lifts for the last couple of reps cheating and throwing up the weights gonna show growth (baring that you don't feel like your going to get injure yourself).

I agree. That being said, you don't want to go out there and look like your having a seizure when your curling. You can get a little sloppy (not horrible form), but you should still always be conscious about your form.

I see guys load up the leg press with every plate in the gym and then bring the weight down 3 inches and call it a press (same with squats). WTF is that going to do? Lower the weight to where you can bang out good reps, and maybe cheat a little to get one more rep out of it.

IRBS
06-21-07, 1:47 pm
It all depends on what you are training for, Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, Strongman, etc...

Example:

When deadlifting in a Powerlifting meet you cannot hitch on a deadlift (slide the bar up your quads in a jerky manner for those that dont know), however, in Strongman you can hitch all day, you either pick it up or you dont.

Thats just one example, however, like was said above, before you start lifting super heavy you need to have solid form down pretty well, to avoid injury if nothig else...

My 2 cents

Maccabee
06-21-07, 2:00 pm
Honestly I go heavy, but I wont go so heavy that I will injure myself with shitty form. Last night I was doing squats I finished off my last set with 3 reps. I didnt just grab the weight and bounce up and down, and if I did I would of done like 6 reps. I was going down slow enough to have proper form and still demolish my quads. I even held the weight on the bottom for like 2 seconds and up again nice and slow.

Testpolska
06-21-07, 2:20 pm
In my opinion both have benifits. So I use both. Throw a few sets of each in there. On my heavier sets no doubt I'll use some body english on my heavier curls and rows and such.

I beleive in good form. But I beleive in heavy weight as well. As long as your not risking injury to a huge extent I say go heavy.

ironshaolin
06-21-07, 2:32 pm
I won't go so heavy that all my reps have ass backwards form, but I do cheat a bit. Keep it strict, but when you can't anymore, adding a little body english to eek out 2 or 3 extra reps might be the key to monster growth. And it depends the excersise, most pushing excersises I'll never cheat, and squats have to stay strict. But pulling excersises, I.E. barbell rows, barbell curls, I'll start rowing with real good form. Say I go for 8 reps, and at 5 or 6 I can't do anymore with good form, then I'll give it a little heave to get it to the top, then control the descent. I'll do this until I get as many reps as I wanted. The key to cheating I think is to make sure you still use the muscle you're supposed to.

krazyassmexican
06-21-07, 2:37 pm
good form is the way to go

heavy lifts are for our strong powerlifter brothers

Big Wides
06-21-07, 5:12 pm
good form brings heavy weight, cause without the proper form your muscles can't grow and when they dont grow your weights don't increase. thats how i feel

brandonA
06-21-07, 5:16 pm
so why cant you do both? heavy weight with good form? why do we seem to be leaning one way or the other?

-B

djzack
06-21-07, 5:17 pm
sorry guys, but I've seen it in a couple of posts here, and I'm lost, what's body english? I tried to google it but I got some club in Vegas. so a little help please?

Lowdown5
06-21-07, 5:24 pm
so why cant you do both? heavy weight with good form? why do we seem to be leaning one way or the other?

-B

I think that using the heaviest weight with good form is the way to go. One of the guys at the gym said that he doesn't care how poor his form is, as long as he is lifting "monster poundage" (his words).

I agree with the school of lifting heavy, but at what price do you sacrifice really working what you intend to work?
I watch the video of Big Al hoisting 185 pound dumbbells, but his form is good. As he fatigues, he gets a bit loose, but never sloppy. I don't think it leans one way or the other, but if you are using a weight that is stupid heavy and not really lifting it to stimulate growth, are you really accomplishing your goal?

Lowdown5
06-21-07, 5:26 pm
sorry guys, but I've seen it in a couple of posts here, and I'm lost, what's body english? I tried to google it but I got some club in Vegas. so a little help please?


Body english in say barbell curls would be using a bit of body motion to get the weight moving, rocking the hips or using momentum to start the weight in motion.

brandonA
06-21-07, 5:27 pm
I think that using the heaviest weight with good form is the way to go. One of the guys at the gym said that he doesn't care how poor his form is, as long as he is lifting "monster poundage" (his words).

I agree with the school of lifting heavy, but at what price do you sacrifice really working what you intend to work?
I watch the video of Big Al hoisting 185 pound dumbbells, but his form is good. As he fatigues, he gets a bit loose, but never sloppy. I don't think it leans one way or the other, but if you are using a weight that is stupid heavy and not really lifting it to stimulate growth, are you really accomplishing your goal?

I feel the same way bro...I go as heavy as I can with out breaking down my form, to the point of killing myself...no bouncing or any of that shit....just flat out, balls to the wall.
-B

Lowdown5
06-21-07, 5:32 pm
I feel the same way bro...I go as heavy as I can with out breaking down my form, to the point of killing myself...no bouncing or any of that shit....just flat out, balls to the wall.
-B

That is what I am talking about!! Heavy and good form. How many of us have seen the dudes load up the leg press with a shitload of weight and do 2 inch reps? All of us. It ain't about how much weight is on the bar but how much muscle the weight is building (powerlifters no included, I respect the shit out of the tonnage you guys lift)

I just threw this out to see what people thought. There is no one right way, its gotts work for you, and only you.

bharatoza
06-21-07, 5:36 pm
What I would suggest is use both. for example, while doing barbell curls perform reps with strict form. When you can't do anymore, cheat a little(moving your back or bending at your knees) and do 2 extra reps.

Lowdown5
06-21-07, 5:38 pm
What I would suggest is use both. for example, while doing barbell curls perform reps with strict form. When you can't do anymore, cheat a little(moving your back or bending at your knees) and do 2 extra reps.


Amen Bro!

Ricky P
06-21-07, 7:45 pm
Form. Bottom line.

You cannot lift heavy weight with bad form for two reasons. First and foremost - injuries. Second, gains will be slow and growth will be slow. Bad form will concentrate movements in the wrong areas, targeting the wrong muscles. For example, exercises like an upright row performed wrong can shred various parts of your shoulder in the wrong areas.

gflash77
06-21-07, 9:48 pm
I'll take form over heavy weight anyday. Think of it this way..we all can lift heavy things, but we can't lift heavy things if we don't have FORM...even taking a DB off a rack requires some sort of form, especially when the weights are heavy!

Also, with good form, you can make average to above-average weight feel very heavy, thereby benefitting throughout the workout...with proper form.

Lowdown5
06-21-07, 10:25 pm
Form. Bottom line.

You cannot lift heavy weight with bad form for two reasons. First and foremost - injuries. Second, gains will be slow and growth will be slow. Bad form will concentrate movements in the wrong areas, targeting the wrong muscles. For example, exercises like an upright row performed wrong can shred various parts of your shoulder in the wrong areas.


Great points Ricky, thanks for the input.


I'll take form over heavy weight anyday. Think of it this way..we all can lift heavy things, but we can't lift heavy things if we don't have FORM...even taking a DB off a rack requires some sort of form, especially when the weights are heavy!

Also, with good form, you can make average to above-average weight feel very heavy, thereby benefitting throughout the workout...with proper form.


Right on Bro, thanks for adding your thoughts.

extremenergy3
06-21-07, 10:29 pm
Agreed with the couple last posts.

Bad form = can't lift heavy

/thread.

Macrobolic
07-11-07, 2:21 am
Ya know, thats definantly an arguable debate, and as everything, thy both have there up's and down's. Goin' heavy is good, but, if your form is shit, then you risk getting injured! Goin' with form is good too, but, then you risk, not getting bigger, faster.

So, I suppose try to find a happy medium somewhere and stick to it.


I think more of a happy medium is where to go. Form is important in all lifts but there are some lifts that you can load up the weight and cheat a little bit (barbell curls, barbell rows, etc.) I think that your form should be good for the most part but on those heavy lifts for the last couple of reps cheating and throwing up the weights gonna show growth (baring that you don't feel like your going to get injure yourself).

I would have to agree with these guys. I don't think that your form has to be perfect or you risk never going really heavy, but you don't want the form to be so sloppy that you get injured.

violator
07-11-07, 4:49 am
After what i saw yesterday, form all the way.
Was DB pressing wit 22s, these cats next 2 me, about the same size as me were doin 40s with less than half ROM, after they saw my form, full ROM, slowly from full bottom stretch to near lock out at top, they tried it with those 40s & the dude tore his left pec VERY badly, i could hear him screamin over the music blaring in my headphones. Bummer 4 him.

form every time, evry time.

dominate77
07-11-07, 5:13 am
After what i saw yesterday, form all the way.
Was DB pressing wit 22s, these cats next 2 me, about the same size as me were doin 40s with less than half ROM, after they saw my form, full ROM, slowly from full bottom stretch to near lock out at top, they tried it with those 40s & the dude tore his left pec VERY badly, i could hear him screamin over the music blaring in my headphones. Bummer 4 him.

form every time, evry time.

you can tear your pecs with 40's? i really thought you had to be using an extreme amount of weight, because i've seen people have shit form plenty of times and never get hurt

WillWest
07-11-07, 5:29 am
Form form form all the way.

"Sloppy" form leads to injury.

If you have to 'cheat' to do a lift then you cant actually lift it. Once you're form is spot on then the heavy lifts will come with slow and steady pound progression.

rev8ball
07-11-07, 5:34 am
Good points, bros.

Also add this: bad form teaches the nervous system bad pathways. So, when you actually end up trying to lift with good form, the mind/muscle connection is so fucked up from all the bad shit, it's damn near impossible to do it the right way. As a result: injuries, and no progress.

violator
07-11-07, 7:59 am
you can tear your pecs with 40's? i really thought you had to be using an extreme amount of weight, because i've seen people have shit form plenty of times and never get hurt

oh yeah, i keep 4gettin yall americans work on the metric system not imperial. That wouls be 40kg approx 88lbs.
u can tear shit on any weight, just think how easy it is to put ur back out lifting something light if u do it with ur back n not ur legs...

peace

pdiesel
07-11-07, 12:15 pm
Good Form
(Pros)
-Better isolation of muscle group targeted, which leads to a better pump
-Better lines, vascularity, separation, and overall symmetry over the long run
-Less chance of injury, which could hinder performance for months
-Allows you to make a strong mind muscle connection, which can lead to using heavier weights and "learning" how to properly cheat without suffering an injury

Good Form
(Cons)
-Inability to pack on serious mass
-Inability to increase strength
-Ending a set before all fibers are actually fatigued

Sloppy Form (Cheating)
(Pros)
-Forces the body to grow in times of plateau
-Increases strength and mass
-Helps to develop stabilizers used in other lifts

Sloppy Form (Cheating)
(Cons)
-Increased risk of injury
-Not targeting the muscle in the proper manner
Ex-- Using a lot of back and not enough legs when squatting
-Lack of symmetry over the long run
Ex- Marcus Ruhl

In my opinion, I use both to grow, not just one. High and low reps need to both be incoporated if one wants to develop a well balanced physique. Got a lagging bodypart--say back? Do some deadlifts down to 2-4 reps and tell me your back doesn't respond from those last two sets. I'll tell you, whenever I set a new max deadlift record, my back goes into overdrive and I am sore like no other. I swear it's a struggle to get out of bed for the next week. At the same time though, high reps can definitely help a lagging bodypart because you are just bombing the muscle with rep upon rep, say in a dropset of barbell curls. Using good form really helps focus and isolate the muscle you are trying to get growing, and we all know how difficult the mind muscle connection is to develop. Most people in gyms today refuse to work to this connection because their egos will be hurt, but the only thing they suffer from is blown out backs because of their inability to understand how to properly "cheat." High reps and good form set the standard for all heavier movements. They teach you HOW to properly exucute a lift and signal to the body when a weight is just too heavy to handle. It is at this point that the experienced lifter will drop the weight (still going heavy), but make sure that his form is SOLID. At the same time the man with the ego will try to get the weight up, with the worst form imaginable. You all know what this is like--it almost hurts just watching the guy lift the weight. It's almost as if any of these days you know that this lack of form will put this guy down for a couple of months, maybe even forever. Injuries suck. Let's face it, who wants to be sitting doing PT while everyone else is making gains? At the same time, once you get back in the gym, you will never be the same. Our bodies are strong, but they are delicate at the same time, and there is only so much that PT can do for an injury. The solution--train smart with good form. Once you've mastered good form, work up to heavy poundages. Some say that heavy weight and bad form are not the way to go because all of the isolation is thrown out the window. Well hey buddy, that's why they're called compound lifts. Not every lift is about isolation--please guys let's understand that now. I know I said lift with good form, but shit you need to slap some heavy weight on from time to time to FORCE the body into new levels of growth. Have you ever been lagging and then hit the body with a heavy training day? Heavy as in starting light and working up to the point where a BIT of form is sacrificed? It's almost as if immedietely you come out of this plateau and start growing. That's the key my friends. Finally, as bodybuilders, we physically look like the strongest guys out there, but what good is it to not be as strong as you look? To me that's weak, it's bitched out. I don't care if you're going for your v-taper or perfect symmetry, you need to get STRONG. Sorry for writing so much, I could keep going, but I'm sure the post is already long enough. Later guys.

7
07-11-07, 12:27 pm
It all depends on what you are training for, Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, Strongman, etc...


Agree IRBS.

That said, why does it have to be either or scenario? Why not both?

Armyof1
07-13-07, 7:13 am
I feel the same way bro...I go as heavy as I can with out breaking down my form, to the point of killing myself...no bouncing or any of that shit....just flat out, balls to the wall.
-B

Bingo. If you're injured, you ain't gonna be liftin' shit anyways. If you have no concern for form then you're doin' this for all of the wrong reasons. At that point it's either grow the fuck up or go the fuck home.

work-of-art
11-24-07, 12:04 pm
One thing i see on a consistent basics is the use of improper form when performing exercises.In order to build a particular bodypart use must first understand the function of the muscle and how to set up your body in that exercise to place the target muscle under tension. Some examples of bad form are-raising the elbows on curls,not keeping shoulders retracted and chest elevated on chest presses,not having an arched back an coming down to a complete stretch on pull-ups,squatting only 2thirds of the way down on squats with a curved back,and no complete range of motion on dips. No wonder there are so many frustrated people at the gym who claim they see no results. Lets learn the proper way to perform exercises as well as the function of the muscles and i gaurantee the results will follow

prowrestler
11-24-07, 2:00 pm
Someone asked this question on Markus Ruhls MD column..he answered by saying it's important to use good form, especially for beginners, but once you get better at making the mind muscle connection, getting a little sloppier so you can go heavier isn't bad, and that it was one of the only ways to smash through plateaus

yes. if you are NOT a beginner and know what proper form is, then you can try to cheat some extra pounds or reps into your set. if you can get that mind muscle connnection, you can focus in on the major working muscle. and also, what is cheating? using other muscles to help you right? if thats so bad, using more then just the main muscle to lift, why do swear by the compuond lifts?

ok, then you may say, '' WHAT ABOUT USING MOMENTUM TO GET THE WEIGHT UP?"" i say look at the olympic moves. it is about using momentum.

point is, for bodybuilding, learn when to cheat. know how to perform lifts in perfect form. switch shit up. dont start a set with a huge swing of momentum and then not even control the negative portion of the rep.

dont make it look like your lifting the weight, lift the fucking weight.

king1
11-24-07, 8:40 pm
Theres a difference between bad form and cheating/momentum. Bad form has no place in the gym, whereas momentum will always have a place in my training. But if your using your legs and back more for barbell curls than biceps you need to lower the weight. 90% of the time you should use perfect form, and for those no spotter forced reps, use some momentumm.

hatebreedXXX69
01-18-08, 1:40 pm
hey
i just wanted to know if it was ok to sacrifice form a little bit just to lift heavier, to gain the extra strength

Tiny
01-18-08, 3:56 pm
wen i see guys try to go heavy on deads i often see them bend their back a little... so obviously since their way bigger i look up to em'. im trying to go up on deads ...therefor i go heavy. will i go up faster if a cheat a little arching my back and getting the heavy weight up .. or is that me being a pussy and i should do the medium weight right. cuz ive been stuck on the same weigth for a while now ... and im anktious to go up i do 4 sets 5-8 reps...and one burnout.

With deads you concentrate on good form and should have that foundation already, but then it is balls to the fucking wall - bleed or cum, brother. You either make the lift or you just don't get it. Bu of course you can't go like that right out of the box without first actually learning the lift BUT once the form is down, you need to go hard enough that the possibility of injury is ever present - you might pull something, tweak something, might even tear a fuicking bicep but you remain focused to hopefully stave that off. Still, the "danger" element cannot be completely elliminated - if it were, then lifting wouldn't have a "soul" to me, and staying positive, focused without any doubt creeping in gets you that new pr and baptizes you by fire; thus champiions are made.

Roland
01-18-08, 10:48 pm
Good Form
(Pros)
-Better isolation of muscle group targeted, which leads to a better pump
-Better lines, vascularity, separation, and overall symmetry over the long run
-Less chance of injury, which could hinder performance for months
-Allows you to make a strong mind muscle connection, which can lead to using heavier weights and "learning" how to properly cheat without suffering an injury

Good Form
(Cons)
-Inability to pack on serious mass
-Inability to increase strength
-Ending a set before all fibers are actually fatigued

Sloppy Form (Cheating)
(Pros)
-Forces the body to grow in times of plateau
-Increases strength and mass
-Helps to develop stabilizers used in other lifts

Sloppy Form (Cheating)
(Cons)
-Increased risk of injury
-Not targeting the muscle in the proper manner
Ex-- Using a lot of back and not enough legs when squatting
-Lack of symmetry over the long run
Ex- Marcus Ruhl

In my opinion, I use both to grow, not just one. High and low reps need to both be incoporated if one wants to develop a well balanced physique. Got a lagging bodypart--say back? Do some deadlifts down to 2-4 reps and tell me your back doesn't respond from those last two sets. I'll tell you, whenever I set a new max deadlift record, my back goes into overdrive and I am sore like no other. I swear it's a struggle to get out of bed for the next week. At the same time though, high reps can definitely help a lagging bodypart because you are just bombing the muscle with rep upon rep, say in a dropset of barbell curls. Using good form really helps focus and isolate the muscle you are trying to get growing, and we all know how difficult the mind muscle connection is to develop. Most people in gyms today refuse to work to this connection because their egos will be hurt, but the only thing they suffer from is blown out backs because of their inability to understand how to properly "cheat." High reps and good form set the standard for all heavier movements. They teach you HOW to properly exucute a lift and signal to the body when a weight is just too heavy to handle. It is at this point that the experienced lifter will drop the weight (still going heavy), but make sure that his form is SOLID. At the same time the man with the ego will try to get the weight up, with the worst form imaginable. You all know what this is like--it almost hurts just watching the guy lift the weight. It's almost as if any of these days you know that this lack of form will put this guy down for a couple of months, maybe even forever. Injuries suck. Let's face it, who wants to be sitting doing PT while everyone else is making gains? At the same time, once you get back in the gym, you will never be the same. Our bodies are strong, but they are delicate at the same time, and there is only so much that PT can do for an injury. The solution--train smart with good form. Once you've mastered good form, work up to heavy poundages. Some say that heavy weight and bad form are not the way to go because all of the isolation is thrown out the window. Well hey buddy, that's why they're called compound lifts. Not every lift is about isolation--please guys let's understand that now. I know I said lift with good form, but shit you need to slap some heavy weight on from time to time to FORCE the body into new levels of growth. Have you ever been lagging and then hit the body with a heavy training day? Heavy as in starting light and working up to the point where a BIT of form is sacrificed? It's almost as if immedietely you come out of this plateau and start growing. That's the key my friends. Finally, as bodybuilders, we physically look like the strongest guys out there, but what good is it to not be as strong as you look? To me that's weak, it's bitched out. I don't care if you're going for your v-taper or perfect symmetry, you need to get STRONG. Sorry for writing so much, I could keep going, but I'm sure the post is already long enough. Later guys.

I disagree with some of your information here such as "inability to increase strength if you use good form" If you are eating up to new levels and trying to add on those 2.5lb plates your strength WILL increase fast. That's of course only if you want it to increase, your mind really has to be there. All sloppy form is in my opinion ---is that: sloppy form, shit form, all you will get from it is injuries, trust me i've been there. In the beginning that's how I used to train and my shit was hurting all the time. Of course now on your last couple reps you can "cheat" but NOT use SLOPPY shit form on EVERYTHING all the time. That's just what I think.

WarlordMalice
03-19-10, 5:18 am
I've always been super strict in all my lifts and hear all the time about how important it is. However, I've recently read some training posts on here saying you gotta cheat to grow. What's you guys opinion on this? I've seen tons of vids of the pro's talking about how strict they are in their movements but to me it looks like they're using a lot of "extra" body english. Makes me wonder if I just take the "strict form" thing too literally.

Iceiktitan
03-19-10, 5:24 am
Cheating is an option which can help your training but their is a line between training smart and training stupid. Case in point, if you hump the bar to get a bench up that is most likely unproductive and may cause injury. If you bounce out of the hole on squats hard it may give you big numbers but at what cost? A back injury? Same thing applies to other movements bro. Cheating is an option but remember to be smart about it. Just my two cents.

WarlordMalice
03-19-10, 6:56 am
Cheating is an option which can help your training but their is a line between training smart and training stupid. Case in point, if you hump the bar to get a bench up that is most likely unproductive and may cause injury. If you bounce out of the hole on squats hard it may give you big numbers but at what cost? A back injury? Same thing applies to other movements bro. Cheating is an option but remember to be smart about it. Just my two cents.

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to clarify my original question a bit so this doesn't turn into a big flame job. By cheating I'm not referring to bouncing the weight off your chest or out of the hole on squat like you mentioned. That's not cheating IMO that's just damn douchebaggery asking for an injury. I'm referring to the slight body swing you see with curls, lat pulls, etc. Not the huge swinging power clean curls you see the guys with the 12" pythons doing to impress themselves but the slight swing the big mother fuckers use when curling.

I got to thinking about it after reading an article here the other day and the author says multiple times you have to cheat to grow. That got me thinking and wondering as to how much "cheating" is considered acceptable before making the exercise useless. When I learned to lift in Jr. High school I was told to always use strict form with no cheating. When doing curls lean back slightly against a pole so you can't possibly swing your body to cheat the weight up. When doing concentration curls you lock your elbow against the side of your knee so you can't swing the weight up. Things like that. That's how I've always lifted and hence I've never incurred a single weight lifting related injury. However, when seeing the pros perform their "strict" movements there's always some body english involved and I've always considered it "cheating" based on my interpretation of strict. Have I taken the definition of strict to the extreme in relation to lifting?

theharjmann
03-19-10, 7:39 am
There are 3 portions to any movement. The positive, the static contraction and the negative. The Negative is the strongest part of the movement, the static contraction the second strongest with the positive being the weakest (contrary to popular belief - this is physiological fact, not an assumption by the way).

So, assuming that you are training to get big, not to show how much weight you can lift (i.e. you are a bodybuilder as opposed to a powerlifter/strongman) you want to be activating and tearing down as many muscle fibres as much as you can - thats your prime goal - amount of weight you move is secondary.

Right, so lets take the underhand grip lat pulldown as an example; with every single rep, you should be able to hold a static contraction and emphasise the negative since they are the 2 stronger parts of the motion as opposed to the positive (the actual pulling down of the bar). Now, if you cant hold that bar at the static contraction (i.e. where the bar is an inch or so above your pecs), then that means thatyou didnt get it down through muscular power, you got it down through momentum. Which is fine if you goal is to get that bar down to your chest by any means necessary.

But if your goal is to activate muscle fibres so they can grow and get bigger, cheating and getting the bar down through momentum will not help you build muscle at all. What i would do is either a) maintain strict form and get a spot or b) do a drop set.

Now when i say "strict form" i mean a LOT of things...

holding the static contraction for a second or so
emphasising the negative
actually PERFORMING THE EXERCISE PROPERLY. You see soo many people who do lat pulldowns who do it IMPROPERLY. Their elbows arent tight, their shoulders arent down, their spines arent arched etc etc (note that in order for the lats to contract the spine needs to be arched in its natural S shape. having a rounded back will NOT activate the lats properly).

Bascially thats my 2 cents. I could be wrong. But i just feel that if my main aim is to get bigger and symmetrical muscles then why cheat? Im just cheating myself out of growth. I was a culprit also. When i started training i didnt use perfect form....far from it! But ive learnt and put into practice that good form promotes more muscle growth.

An advocate of this is Dorian Yates - 6 time My Olympia. He knows his shit!

Hope that helped.

Iceiktitan
03-19-10, 6:07 pm
That pretty much sums up everything I could contribute. Nice post bro.

There are 3 portions to any movement. The positive, the static contraction and the negative. The Negative is the strongest part of the movement, the static contraction the second strongest with the positive being the weakest (contrary to popular belief - this is physiological fact, not an assumption by the way).

So, assuming that you are training to get big, not to show how much weight you can lift (i.e. you are a bodybuilder as opposed to a powerlifter/strongman) you want to be activating and tearing down as many muscle fibres as much as you can - thats your prime goal - amount of weight you move is secondary.

Right, so lets take the underhand grip lat pulldown as an example; with every single rep, you should be able to hold a static contraction and emphasise the negative since they are the 2 stronger parts of the motion as opposed to the positive (the actual pulling down of the bar). Now, if you cant hold that bar at the static contraction (i.e. where the bar is an inch or so above your pecs), then that means thatyou didnt get it down through muscular power, you got it down through momentum. Which is fine if you goal is to get that bar down to your chest by any means necessary.

But if your goal is to activate muscle fibres so they can grow and get bigger, cheating and getting the bar down through momentum will not help you build muscle at all. What i would do is either a) maintain strict form and get a spot or b) do a drop set.

Now when i say "strict form" i mean a LOT of things...

holding the static contraction for a second or so
emphasising the negative
actually PERFORMING THE EXERCISE PROPERLY. You see soo many people who do lat pulldowns who do it IMPROPERLY. Their elbows arent tight, their shoulders arent down, their spines arent arched etc etc (note that in order for the lats to contract the spine needs to be arched in its natural S shape. having a rounded back will NOT activate the lats properly).

Bascially thats my 2 cents. I could be wrong. But i just feel that if my main aim is to get bigger and symmetrical muscles then why cheat? Im just cheating myself out of growth. I was a culprit also. When i started training i didnt use perfect form....far from it! But ive learnt and put into practice that good form promotes more muscle growth.

An advocate of this is Dorian Yates - 6 time My Olympia. He knows his shit!

Hope that helped.

msktyshha
03-19-10, 11:24 pm
I believe you should be strict throughout your workout and focus on the 3 movements like harjmann stated, but during your last 3-4 reps of your final set, it's ok to cheat and sometimes it's necessary also if you wanna grow. lets say you are doing barbell curls without any workout partner or helper and you can't do more positives, but you still think you got some left in your negatives, then it's ok to use momentum and bring it up to the top and get some negatives out.

Deathride
03-20-10, 3:07 pm
I like to cheat on the last couple of reps just so I can get a little extra.....if I find my self having to swing up from the first few, i'm repping too much. I also like to do exercises where you can't cheat.......concentration curls for example.......and use forced negatives to complete my sets if I can't do it with the weight i've selected.

jeff00z28
03-20-10, 11:58 pm
ill hitch on deadlift if i otherwise couldn't get it up, bounce the last reps and take my butt of the bench on a bench press repout. that's about it. imo "isolation" exercises should be just that.

Goliathus
03-21-10, 1:13 am
You know, if you pick up Arnold's book, he hits on this point pretty well.
It's a good idea, cheat to grow.

Bicep curls, for example, for a last set, letting your wrists drop, squeezing the curl as much as possible so you get a contraction in your bicep, then slightly leaning to finish the movement.

You just need to be able to cheat and maintain your contraction..

Maccabee
03-23-10, 10:24 am
Bad form = a higher risk of injury

simple as that

I personally would not do it

NaturalTrainee
03-23-10, 10:42 am
Strict form is something you won't hear for by most fellas. Most of them cheat on most reps to use heavy weights, but if you learn proper form you will sense how heavy a weight really is and how those 405's are usually bullshit.

Iron_Spirit
03-23-10, 8:33 pm
To me, means:
To provoke an injury on yourself or not?
Young kid new to the lifting game or not?
Lucky ass guy never injured himself somehow or not?

Takes time and lessons of pain to know those answers.