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mark
01-17-07, 6:45 pm
I've read several of the topics posted on the board, replied to some, too baffled to reply to others, totally perplexed by some of them...

Why is that people always try to use ADVANCE "itensity" enhacers (such as drop sets, negatives, slow reps, etc) in their programs when they're not really advanced lifters. Is it the Joe Weider era of bodybuilding magazines that has people doing these? Idolization of their bodybuidling superstars that they're trying to emulate? This whole "phenominum" just leaves me bewildered...

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE BASICS?!?!

Whatever happened to getting strong? Starting simple and working up? Why is it that people are always trying to train harder? What happened to training smarter? Why do people always think more is more? Has the idea that less can be more been tossed out the window? Why do most people think they need advanced techniques?

For most people, if you weigh under 200lbs, hell, most of this will apply to most people who weigh under 250 for sure, and you're can't figure out why you can't put on any more size to your chest, "guns", back,etc, you should probably look at how much weight you're using on your exercises. If you bench less than 315 for 3, then you should make this your bench press goal. I guaranatee you, that if your work out consists of working up to to a "heavy" set of 5 with 225 followed by some drop sets with a lighter weight (i don't care how long you spent lowering the weight on the set of 225) that you'll get bigger by tossing out the ultra slow negatives and focussing more on working up to 315 for 5. Typically, the more weight you can use for an exercise the bigger the muscle will get due to the increased volume- and the more volume you have in your training, the more time your muscles will spend under tension (for those of you who live by that principle)- therefore, if you just focussed on getting stronger, you'll get bigger. Plain and simple, if you keep is simple, it'll be easier to make gains. You don't need to do a million and half drop sets and whatnot... you just need to get stronger.

If you truly put everything you have into your big compound movements (squat, bench, deadlift, and pull ups) you should barely have any energy to do much of anything else during the workout. If you can do more than 3-4 exercises in a workout, then you're not putting enough into your compound movements, your true strength and mass builders.

I truly believe most people here could benefit from simply training smarter, not harder. The classic formula that applies to all forms of training:

Train+ Eating+ Sleeping= Progress

2/3 of the formula is recovery, yet I've barely seen any threads about people asking what they can do to enhance their recovery. Yes, there are the peripherial questions about food and what not, but what about other recovery methods? I think people here would be suprised how much they gain by focussing some on their recovery. When was the last time you got a deep tissue massage? Saw a chiro? Got ultra- sound? De-loaded? Or god forbid, take an... OFF- WEEK??? Hell, I take every 3rd or 4th week off or deload upwards of 80% of both my volume and intensity, and I only train "hard" twice a week, and I might do some light assistance work between those workouts, but its nothing hard or overly exhausting. Yet since SEPT06, I've gone from 205 @ 18.1%BF to 225@ 19.8%BF, and my strength gains are even more impressive. And just to let everyone know, my supplement routine would make most of the people here cry because I'm lucky if I remember to even take my multivitamin, I hate protien shakes and only drink them if I don't have time to eat a meal, and I haven't touched creatine since April.


So here's my advice to most people who have hit a speed bump in their quest for their goals...

-Apply the KISS principle as often as possible
-Get Stronger
-Do a honest review of your training, and see if you're doing too much
-Take a few days off and do something to imrpove your recovery
-Eat more food
-Sleep more, be it naps or going to bed earlier
-Supplements will only work as good as your training, so focus on your training, including your recovery, and then add the supplements on top


Be Smart,
mark

speedster00
01-17-07, 6:58 pm
I have to say I agree. Too many people get caught up in the latest magazine article to"blast" your arms. I dont think alot of people realize that you dont grow the hour your in the gym. Its the food and rest in the other 23 hours in the day that make you grow. Go heavy, keep it simple, eat multiple times a day, rest and repeat.....you'll grow.

LuvsThePain
01-17-07, 7:01 pm
MUSCLE MEMORY....

I've been seriously involved with weights for six years. For about the first four years I stuck to the basics, was smart about my eating, got plenty of rest and took the proper supplements that I could afford (protein and a good multi vitamin). I eventually plateued and wasn't progressing any more. Don't get me wrong, the basics helped me go from 160 lbs. to 225 lbs.
But your muscles develop a memory and adapt to the workouts that you do. Eventually they won't progress any further if you don't switch things up such as volume, intensity, rep schemes, movements etc... I realized this and started adding workouts to the basics, (but not removing the basics). I implemented drop sets, super sets, pyramids and a few of my own creations. These helped me get over my plateu. I'm now up to 237 lbs. and shooting for 250. These different variations in my workout have consistently helped me boost my strength.
My point is, some people like myself have to keep their muscles guessing in order to improve. Some people can stick to the basics and keep adding muscle. Every body's different.

prowrestler
10-03-09, 7:14 pm
i just found this thread

BUMP. for the love of god i hope people on this forum now adays take a sec to read this...

Ady
10-03-09, 8:53 pm
Best thing i've heard in a while. Training smart is the answer make sure your training consistently, eating lots and getting your rest. Compound movemenets have been around for years because they are tried and tested. They aren't used because some magazine is preaching they are the next best thing. They are basics and hell everyone needs the basics before you can worry about everything else.

Peace

shizz702
10-03-09, 10:26 pm
i just found this thread

BUMP. for the love of god i hope people on this forum now adays take a sec to read this...

Good bump,

Don't know how this got lost in the mix cause it was a great post with some honest, good advice.

Ir0nClad
10-03-09, 10:58 pm
Good thread, too many people on here are not focusing on the basics, and getting strong with the basic compound exercises especially when they're the greatest strength and mass builders. Your body isn't going to change unless you make, and really give it a reason to, and focusing on the lifts that recruit the most muscle and getting 2 or 3 times stronger on that lift is whats going to yield the most results in strength and mass. People on here are ignoring the performance aspect of training, and refuse to let go of their body splits with their drops sets and etc.., when they are not nearly advanced enough to use such routines, and they would make much faster and better progress by just focusing on the basic lifts with linear progression.

Dr.Platypus
10-03-09, 11:09 pm
what a great, thorough, lucid post

charlievanriper
10-03-09, 11:42 pm
Total Agreement

MrMonday
10-04-09, 1:08 am
For the most part I agree with all of this, and people do need to keep those squat/bench/deadlift milestones coming in the beginning.

However, I feel good form needs to be stressed, and I don't just mean safe form, but also real muscle-building form. When we say you need to bench 3 plates before you start seeing some real pecs, we don't mean with a huge arch in your back, tucked elbows, pushing with the thighs and bouncing off the chest.

I would also add that I don't think its the best choice of words to say beginners should "focus on the compound lifts", because (a) there are basic bodybuilding exercises like barbell curls, hamstring curls, and lateral raises that are essential, and (b) just because it's a compound exercise doesn't mean you should be doing it, some exercises aren't very valuable - especially for a beginner - in spite of technically being a multijoint movement.

I think it's more appropriate to just say beginners should focus on bringing up their numbers on all the basic bodybuilding exercises (great training article on this website called "The Secret").

prowrestler
10-04-09, 1:15 am
in powerlifting, there is no such thing as a bounce off the chest, thats somethin the bodybuilders do .... along with the "tag team bench press".

in a meet, you pause the bar on your chest until the judge calls for the press. ive witnessed some lengthy press calls aswell.

elbows tucked will still stimulate the chest, more upper fibers is all. obviouse is alot more tricep involvment though.

MrMonday
10-04-09, 2:02 am
in powerlifting, there is no such thing as a bounce off the chest, thats somethin the bodybuilders do .... along with the "tag team bench press".

in a meet, you pause the bar on your chest until the judge calls for the press. ive witnessed some lengthy press calls aswell.

elbows tucked will still stimulate the chest, more upper fibers is all. obviouse is alot more tricep involvment though.

I wasn't necessarily referring to powerlifting, but no, neither powerlifters NOR bodybuilders bounce the bar off their chest - only people asking for an injury do that.

prowrestler
10-04-09, 2:09 am
I wasn't necessarily referring to powerlifting, but no, neither powerlifters NOR bodybuilders bounce the bar off their chest - only people asking for an injury do that.

lol, well said.

i think i ment to say hmm "bodybuilders". sarcasm sprinkled over just abit

MrMonday
10-04-09, 2:18 am
In regards to the original post, this is what "the basics" means to me:

Every major muscle group trained at least once a week with progressively heavier weights repped to failure, then pumped full of as much blood as possible, utilizing the traditional bodybuilding exercises.

Combine that with a high-protein diet that allows you to make incremental gains in bodyweight, and you are on your way.

shizz702
10-04-09, 9:44 am
For the most part I agree with all of this, and people do need to keep those squat/bench/deadlift milestones coming in the beginning.

However, I feel good form needs to be stressed, and I don't just mean safe form, but also real muscle-building form. When we say you need to bench 3 plates before you start seeing some real pecs, we don't mean with a huge arch in your back, tucked elbows, pushing with the thighs and bouncing off the chest.

I would also add that I don't think its the best choice of words to say beginners should "focus on the compound lifts", because (a) there are basic bodybuilding exercises like barbell curls, hamstring curls, and lateral raises that are essential, and (b) just because it's a compound exercise doesn't mean you should be doing it, some exercises aren't very valuable - especially for a beginner - in spite of technically being a multijoint movement.

I think it's more appropriate to just say beginners should focus on bringing up their numbers on all the basic bodybuilding exercises (great training article on this website called "The Secret").
Good post Monday.

Where a lot of guys fail is they don't add progressive resistance to those basic bodybuilding exercises. Logic tells me if you add 50 lbs to your barbell curl over the course of year or so and have your diet in check your arms will grow.

It's like people forget this is WEIGHT training lol. It can all be wrapped up by hitting the basic proven mass builders hard, supplemented with some assistance lifts (curls, lat raises, etc.), progressive poundages lifted in good form, eat big, and sleep good, time will take care of the rest.

MrMonday
10-04-09, 12:00 pm
Good post Monday.

Where a lot of guys fail is they don't add progressive resistance to those basic bodybuilding exercises. Logic tells me if you add 50 lbs to your barbell curl over the course of year or so and have your diet in check your arms will grow.

It's like people forget this is WEIGHT training lol. It can all be wrapped up by hitting the basic proven mass builders hard, supplemented with some assistance lifts (curls, lat raises, etc.), progressive poundages lifted in good form, eat big, and sleep good, time will take care of the rest.

You're absolutely right, adding 50lbs to your barbell curl with an associated gain in bodyweight would mean some serious gains in the biceps.

But it's just sad when you see a guy come on the forums asking for help with his arms or delts or something, and we ask what he's been doing, and he says he has been doing bench/squat/dead/row/press just like "we" said he should... But now his arms, calves, delts, etc. etc. etc. are lagging behind and his lifts have stalled out because of it.

Curls, lateral raises, calf raises, hamstring curls, and tricep extensions are not "assistance lifts" when it comes to bodybuilding, they are staple mass builders.

shizz702
10-04-09, 12:05 pm
You're absolutely right, adding 50lbs to your barbell curl with an associated gain in bodyweight would mean some serious gains in the biceps.

But it's just sad when you see a guy come on the forums asking for help with his arms or delts or something, and we ask what he's been doing, and he says he has been doing bench/squat/dead/row/press just like "we" said he should... But now his arms, calves, delts, etc. etc. etc. are lagging behind and his lifts have stalled out because of it.

Curls, lateral raises, calf raises, hamstring curls, and tricep extensions are not "assistance lifts" when it comes to bodybuilding, they are staple mass builders.

What I see a lot of are guys who come on asking why their arms won't grow, and they are doing too much. Hitting too many curl variations, and tricep exercises, going for a "pump" when instead they should just be focusing on adding weight to the staples. Quality over quantity.

prowrestler
10-04-09, 3:49 pm
What I see a lot of are guys who come on asking why their arms won't grow, and they are doing too much. Hitting too many curl variations, and tricep exercises, going for a "pump" when instead they should just be focusing on adding weight to the staples. Quality over quantity.

yup!

i see it this way. people need to shut the fuck up, go spend time in the weight room and figure out what works and what doesn't. they are overtraining their minds, not muscles, over complicating training.

IT IS EASY. lift heavier, eat heavier, sleep and repeat. train the entire body with 100% effort.


find a program that has a plan to it, stick to it and grow. or don't, bitch and complain why you arent totalllyyy huuuge.....but i suggest that these people leave the gym so the deticated can train without their pathetic carcass in the way.

charlievanriper
10-04-09, 4:13 pm
yup!

i see it this way. people need to shut the fuck up, go spend time in the weight room and figure out what works and what doesn't. they are overtraining their minds, not muscles, over complicating training.

IT IS EASY. lift heavier, eat heavier, sleep and repeat. train the entire body with 100% effort.


find a program that has a plan to it, stick to it and grow. or don't, bitch and complain why you arent totalllyyy huuuge.....but i suggest that these people leave the gym so the deticated can train without their pathetic carcass in the way.


PW your fucking beautiful bro, goddam just tell it straight.
well so true, so true. Funny part about it the ignorant fools wont take good advice even when they ask and you give it to them. If the advice dont fit thier tastes they go ask some huge drug filled dude or read the drug mags and go back to working to hard for thier bodies lol.

prowrestler
10-05-09, 2:43 am
PW your fucking beautiful bro, goddam just tell it straight.
well so true, so true. Funny part about it the ignorant fools wont take good advice even when they ask and you give it to them. If the advice dont fit thier tastes they go ask some huge drug filled dude or read the drug mags and go back to working to hard for thier bodies lol.

thanks, i am beautiful

charlievanriper
10-05-09, 1:12 pm
thanks, i am beautiful

LOL Ah complmetition for the most Arrogant!