View Full Version : Training FAQ #11: Does "overtraining" exist?
Animal Rep
05-25-07, 4:36 pm
The existence of the phenomena known as "overtraining" has long been debated, and with great passion. Some argue it's a real event with a biological basis. Others argue it is a phantom, a figment of the mind. Some lifters grow like weeds with a more "minimal" training routine. Others only flourish when they hammer out set after set after set. If your approach works, good for you. One man's meat is another man's poison. Just keep in mind the validity of the term may be influenced by your approach to lifting and what your ultimate goals are.
For one such hotly debated discussion: http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=2197
TheNaturalG
06-10-07, 2:45 am
I think it is easy to say overtraining is a 'phantom' if you have never overtrained before. So I if you are a true nonbeliever try doing only rest pauses, beyond failure techniques, negatives, forced reps, widowmakers, statics, etc. for many sets in each workout and after a month or 2 tell me you have not started to drag ass at the gym from being more tired and weaker then usual.
adidamps2
06-10-07, 11:29 am
proper nutrition and rest can really help offset any OT issues IMO.
Macrobolic
07-15-07, 10:01 pm
The existence of the phenomena known as "overtraining" has long been debated, and with great passion. Some argue it's a real event with a biological basis. Others argue it is a phantom, a figment of the mind. Some lifters grow like weeds with a more "minimal" training routine. Others only flourish when they hammer out set after set after set. If your approach works, good for you. One man's meat is another man's poison. Just keep in mind the validity of the term may be influenced by your approach to lifting and what your ultimate goals are.
For one such hotly debated discussion: http://forum.animalpak.com/showthread.php?t=2197
IMO, I believe that it is a very true phenomena, but some people use it as an excuse not to train intensely. But it does happen, so to curb it from ever happening, I'll usually put a lower intesity week into my cycle every 6-8 weeks. It lets the body and mind rest a little, without going stale.
Macrobolic
07-15-07, 10:01 pm
proper nutrition and rest can really help offset any OT issues IMO.
This can offset OT symptoms for a time, but eventually even that won't help anymore IMO because of CNS over-exhaustion.
bigpunisher
09-10-07, 12:25 am
yes you can over train because your muscle actually grows when you are resting.
navarro1
11-12-07, 5:15 pm
well how come everyone tell you not to mix days of cardio with weight and to not be in the gym more than an hour.....whats up with that
bigpunisher
11-12-07, 5:40 pm
well how come everyone tell you not to mix days of cardio with weight and to not be in the gym more than an hour.....whats up with that
Not sure why people are telling you that because its fine to be in the gym more than an hour. Over training could be when you train a muscle one day and then you train it again the next. You muscle needs 48-72 to recover before you train that muscle group again. It is also fine to do cardio on days that you lift weights. Doing cardio might just make it harder to put size on because of the sweating and weight loss.
I think nutrition and sleep cover overtraining to a certain extent. Once your CNS becomes overtrained (which depends a lot on how you train), you need to let it rest, and theres no way around that. Ive been training super heavy for the past 10 weeks, and soon im gonna be changing programs to give my CNS an overdue break.
no, there is no such thing as OVERTRAINING...just under-nurished....if you train your ass off, every day, but you are feeding the beast properly, you are square.
navarro1
11-13-07, 10:19 am
thats why this is the best forum out there
born0withno0soul
11-17-07, 11:16 am
no, there is no such thing as OVERTRAINING...just under-nurished....if you train your ass off, every day, but you are feeding the beast properly, you are square.
i agree with this. overtraining is bullshit. its called being under nourished and weak minded
Sleep and eat good you'll be fine
Squat_Heavy
11-22-07, 5:56 pm
If someone says overtraining isnt real, then you truly are the dumbest piece of shit ever. Anyone who think overtraining can't happen is a fucking retard. Yes i'll make that statement, its the fucking truth. Being hardcore doesn't equal being braindead. Entire training-programs are based on deliberate overtraining or uptil the that border, just go find many russian training programs and you will see what i am talking about. Just read how poliquinn trains many of his athletes.
Squat_Heavy
11-22-07, 6:01 pm
i agree with this. overtraining is bullshit. its called being under nourished and weak minded
GO train balls to walls benchpress EACH day and try to lift more or heavier EACH day, in 2-3weeks you are gonna drop 100lbs on your lifts.. Even if you smack down 15thousand calories and run deca through your system you are gonna be fucked within a month. Be serious, overtraining is real, the issue is to learn: nutrition, progression, periodically training and know when to rest.
Why do you guys think we have off-days? why we do deloads, why we sleep at all. If overtraining wasnt real you could just eat and lift 24/7 and grow. its simple logics-.
prowrestler
11-23-07, 10:23 pm
over training for sure exists. but i dont think its caused by the actual lifting itself. if your resting and eating enough you will not be overtrained. overtrained is when the muscle does not get enough time to recover before the next lift and therfore can not grow. if you are training each muscle once a week and packing away the food ( im not going to get into what food to eat, you should know if your on this forum) overtraining should not be an issue.
genetics yet again play a role in this. ecto's are more prone to overtraining.
steriods are an other factor, they allow for a faster recovery making overtraining a hard thing to acheive unless your a complete shit head in the gym and in the kitchen.
thats my view. thanks, daniel desmarchais
born0withno0soul
11-27-07, 1:46 pm
GO train balls to walls benchpress EACH day and try to lift more or heavier EACH day, in 2-3weeks you are gonna drop 100lbs on your lifts.. Even if you smack down 15thousand calories and run deca through your system you are gonna be fucked within a month. Be serious, overtraining is real, the issue is to learn: nutrition, progression, periodically training and know when to rest.
Why do you guys think we have off-days? why we do deloads, why we sleep at all. If overtraining wasnt real you could just eat and lift 24/7 and grow. its simple logics-.
there are certain extents to everyhting. if your stupid enough to trian chest everyday yes you will leadto injury. but people have also been stupid enough to overdose and die on water consumption. same category
Squat_Heavy
11-27-07, 5:53 pm
Yes, but overtraining still is real. How smart you train wasnt the subject here, it was a simple question--> does overtraining exist?---> YES. saying overtraing isnt real would be the same as saying you couldnt die from drinking to much water. just because you can avoid doesn't make it any less real.
SomeDayI'llBeXL
12-10-07, 7:23 pm
Hey Squat heavy, we arent fucking retards and we arent dumb pieces of shit, watch the name calling. On to the subjuect at hand.I personally dont think it exist, but thats my opinion. I think my boy John Defendis said it best and its already been posted on this thread a few times, its not overtraining, its under eating and resting. Now, im not telling everyone to go out and bench heavy 5 days a week. All Im saying is that if you want to knock out 50 sets for back, go ahead, just be sure to eat more than you usually would. There isnt just one program for everyone. Go out and find what works best for you.
Good Luck Brothers
Squat_Heavy
12-10-07, 7:42 pm
Hey Squat heavy, we arent fucking retards and we arent dumb pieces of shit, watch the name calling. On to the subjuect at hand.I personally dont think it exist, but thats my opinion. I think my boy John Defendis said it best and its already been posted on this thread a few times, its not overtraining, its under eating and resting. Now, im not telling everyone to go out and bench heavy 5 days a week. All Im saying is that if you want to knock out 50 sets for back, go ahead, just be sure to eat more than you usually would. There isnt just one program for everyone. Go out and find what works best for you.
Good Luck Brothers
Yes, if you don't face the fact that overtraining is real, i am gonna call you a fucking retard.
Now everyone in this forum know this... and it has been said a million times prior to this post. If you do not give your body optimal rest, fuel or even workup to each level of you exercise, your body will start to shut down. More prone to injuries, greater recovery times or possibly rhabdomyolysis (rare with lifting).
SomeDayI'llBeXL
12-10-07, 10:06 pm
Yes, overtraining occurs, only if you dont allow your body proper rest periods and proper nutrition. If you dont eat, and dont rest, then 5 sets is going to be overtraining. The name calling isnt appreciated and isnt allowed. Post your opinions, post your facts, dont post the hate.
born0withno0soul
12-12-07, 2:51 pm
Yes, if you don't face the fact that overtraining is real, i am gonna call you a fucking retard.
well lets face the facts that you dont have to worry about overtraining because your too busy on here telling people how dumb they are for not have the same beliefs as you.
Squat_Heavy
12-12-07, 4:00 pm
well lets face the facts that you dont have to worry about overtraining because your too busy on here telling people how dumb they are for not have the same beliefs as you.
Great post! Just fantastic, its a difference between beliefs and facts.
I'm a union iron worker and some days really kick my ass. When I get home I still go down to my gym And push it out. I've been told My 6 day work out is too much for this. And that's why my gains have been smaller. Would a 4 day work out be better for me? 2 on 1 off 2 on 1 off ?
i think you should try to tone it down to 4 or 5 days. The best thing to do is if work kicked your ass and youre dead beat, take the day off and train a day that you scheduled off already.
Also, squat heavy im with you. There is scientific evidence that can help back up the overtraining theory. After 45-70 minutes of intense training your liver glycogen levels are near depletion.
simpleguy
01-12-08, 1:18 am
All Im saying is that if you want to knock out 50 sets for back, go ahead, just be sure to eat more than you usually would.
I'm curious how much you would have to eat after your 50 set back day
Here is my theory and say what you will about it I really don't give a sh*t, this is just my belief. It has pretty much already been stated here but I will go more in depth. Overtraining is real but not to the degree that some lifters believe. What truly impacts growth is under recovery.
For example, you get a guy who takes in x amount of calories per day but doesn't train. This guy starts to work out and wow he is making gains, pretty solid ones at that. Then all of a sudden he stagnates, can't grow strength hasn't budged. He states "Must be overtraining, I should take some time off." Wrong. The reality of the matter is he is under recovering not over training. The human body is capable of some many unbelievable strength feats and all too often the mind collapses before the body due to what is refered to as a pain threshold.
Compensation needs to take place, if you are training harder you must compensate by taking in additional calories and getting more rest. This is also where supplements come into play. When it no longer becomes feasable to acquire all of your calories or macronutrients and vitamins through whole food, then up your supplements to meet these needs.
Am I stating that there is never a case where over training occurs, no. What I am saying is all too often it is a cop out to not push your body through that pain barrier and provide it the ability to adapt and grow further.
Here is an anaogy: kid works for $5.00/hr 40 hours week (no taxes for simplification) makes $200 week. Saves for a little while then starts to spend $250 week, sooner or later he is in the negative (over training).
This is how I feel on the subject. Take it for what you will or don't pay it attention to it either way doesn't affect my training and results.
Terranova1340
01-24-08, 8:10 am
Does over training exsist? Sure I suppose I will say it does to a point...... however I also feel you can only blame something on over training if your:
Sleeping 8-10 hours
eating 1.5-2 grams of protien per lb
Taking your pak
Fish oil
Creatine
ZMA
ect
If your not doing all the right things sure over training could occur. Also if yout not mentally prepared and focused I think over training could occur.
That is all stuff with in your control though so IMO if your doing all that theres only one other way I feel its possible one could over train and thats if they have massive ammounts of outside stress on them (stress from home, work, school, ect ect)
I think you can go to the gym and have a 2 hour work out and not over train. I don't think you could do two hours straight of Bicep Curls, but thats because the muscle would be to fatigued, granted I think if you tried that eventually the human body would adapt and you would be able to do it, would you get bigger? Or stronger? I can't say for sure but I am almost positive the human body would adjust to such a thing. Thats what it does, thats why we can build muscle the body responds to the stresses that are put on it and adapts. So Personally I think we ought to accept the fact that overtraining may occur, but also realize many people jump the gun on the overtraining kick.
On a side note I don't think I have ever seen a solid article explaining just what over training is. An article saying "10 sets of bicep curls is to much" and heres the data to back it up. I imagine thats because everyone is different. But it is kind of hard to argue for or against something that can not be 100% proven. So I think we have to accept that it may occur.
Jessff00
02-01-08, 9:35 pm
Hey brothers Whats Up? My name is Jessie and I am a FF/Paramedic. My Job schedule is 24hrs on shift and 48hrs off. On the first day I am off I lift legs and back. Second day chest and arms. I have been doing this since I got back into lifting about 7 months ago. I am making good progress but I need some advice. Do yall think this is too much training? If so what would you change it too? My workouts are pretty hardcore for about 2hrs. I am not the best eater but I do try hard to eat clean. I do take the recommended supps. Thanks bros Jessie
Does over training exsist? Sure I suppose I will say it does to a point...... however I also feel you can only blame something on over training if your:
Sleeping 8-10 hours
eating 1.5-2 grams of protien per lb
Taking your pak
Fish oil
Creatine
ZMA
ect
If your not doing all the right things sure over training could occur. Also if yout not mentally prepared and focused I think over training could occur.
That is all stuff with in your control though so IMO if your doing all that theres only one other way I feel its possible one could over train and thats if they have massive ammounts of outside stress on them (stress from home, work, school, ect ect)
I think you can go to the gym and have a 2 hour work out and not over train. I don't think you could do two hours straight of Bicep Curls, but thats because the muscle would be to fatigued, granted I think if you tried that eventually the human body would adapt and you would be able to do it, would you get bigger? Or stronger? I can't say for sure but I am almost positive the human body would adjust to such a thing. Thats what it does, thats why we can build muscle the body responds to the stresses that are put on it and adapts. So Personally I think we ought to accept the fact that overtraining may occur, but also realize many people jump the gun on the overtraining kick.
On a side note I don't think I have ever seen a solid article explaining just what over training is. An article saying "10 sets of bicep curls is to much" and heres the data to back it up. I imagine thats because everyone is different. But it is kind of hard to argue for or against something that can not be 100% proven. So I think we have to accept that it may occur.
I agree. I don't think it's so much " over training" but the fact of poor eating and/or resting. They really go hand in hand and mean the same. If you don't let your muscles rest, and don't feed them properly, you WILL hurt yourself one way or the other. Now you can call it over training, as yes, you didn't rest and eat properly for your body type. I belive they are one in the same, just putting it in different words.
Infinite Fury
02-08-08, 7:36 pm
I think genetics and recuperation has to come into play. If you can't recover from a workout in 7 day's then I think your overtraining but than again Fuck it.
BeachPirate1976
02-11-08, 1:40 pm
I figure overtraining may usually happen if you try & exercise the same part in continuous days. A few weeks ago, I thought I had did too much with my legs, but after a day or so rest with them, they felt good.
So as long as you don't abuse one body part in straight days, you should be fine.
Hey brothers Whats Up? My name is Jessie and I am a FF/Paramedic. My Job schedule is 24hrs on shift and 48hrs off. On the first day I am off I lift legs and back. Second day chest and arms. I have been doing this since I got back into lifting about 7 months ago. I am making good progress but I need some advice. Do yall think this is too much training? If so what would you change it too? My workouts are pretty hardcore for about 2hrs. I am not the best eater but I do try hard to eat clean. I do take the recommended supps. Thanks bros Jessie
Dude,
Legs and back are 2 big muscle groups to work together. I would try to break down your 2 workouts into 4 workouts. If it's working for you though keep going I would think about doing chest and back 1 day and legs and arms 1 day if you like hitting everything in 2 days.
Jessff00
02-25-08, 7:01 am
Thanks brother, after reading on this website for about 12hrs I have now changed my workouts to 4days instead of 2. Thanks Jessie
how about those guys like zane and michalik who didnt know about overtraining, didnt have creatine, or a great multi like animalpak and drank eggwhites instead of protein shakes?
i know for a fact that michalik trained like a machine with at least 40 sets per bodypart.
Oatmeal Killa
03-22-08, 1:10 pm
Just like Trey Brewer said: " You can't overtrain, you can only under eat!
monster99
04-22-08, 5:23 pm
I have my own 3 day rule. What I mean by that is I always let myself recover atleast 3 days after a super intense workout, excluding Max Effort. I usually do some extra hypertrophy work 2 days after Max Effort, sometimes not. I'm still experimenting though.
monster99
04-22-08, 5:28 pm
Just like Trey Brewer said: " You can't overtrain, you can only under eat!
I like it when people refer to the pros... Although the only one that I really listen to is Louie Simmons. Rarely do I take advice from bodybuilders, but some of my workouts revolves around their training philosophies such as H.I.T. or other stuff. But I think it's always better to make a deep scientific research about things. It's been proven that the negative part of the rep causes the most hypertrophy, so I decided to do some extra negative reps right after my last set of max effort.
did you see trey brewer lately?
not in his best condition.
NOT that i disagree. I dont think that overtraining exists in the way people think of it.
As long as you give it at least 72 hours to recover, your body will continue on and get stronger. YOU DEFINITELY CAN "overtrain" if you do a hard chest day on one day and do the same on the day after. But the way most people [not animals] think of it is that if they do "too much" such as a 100 set workout or a 20 rep set of squats etc.. that they'll compromise their growth. To me, this is just laziness.
monster99
04-24-08, 5:30 pm
did you see trey brewer lately?
not in his best condition.
NOT that i disagree. I dont think that overtraining exists in the way people think of it.
As long as you give it at least 72 hours to recover, your body will continue on and get stronger. YOU DEFINITELY CAN "overtrain" if you do a hard chest day on one day and do the same on the day after. But the way most people [not animals] think of it is that if they do "too much" such as a 100 set workout or a 20 rep set of squats etc.. that they'll compromise their growth. To me, this is just laziness.
I agree.
I truely believe in overtraining and i agree with most of you. I think the word "overtraining" is misinterpreted by most. In other words, overtraining means under-nourished and not getting enough rest. If your going to beat yourself up in the gym by doing montrous weight, then you better eat like a monster and allow your muscles time to rest. Even though we love pumping iron and punishing ourselves in the gym, even the great and might Titans took time to rest.
Peace,
ICXC
eric downey
11-09-08, 5:56 pm
Over training I think is more of a neurological problem than a muscular one. Things just don't fire correctly when you tax them to much and often.
Please people, do not compare yourselves to pros. They are both incredibly blessed with amazing genetics and "supplementing" with "vitamin S." These things both shorten the time needed to recover and increase the workload a body can take.
DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THEIR AMAZING PHYSIQUES ARE SOLELY DUE TO STEROIDS AND GENETICS.
NO! NO! NO!
They obviously work insanely hard and tailor their daily activities to what fit's their body's responces best and all that "rah-rah"
You can't expect to train as hard as a pro and also be able to recover as quickly as they can. That is why you hear pro's say things like "i train back atleast 3 times a week" when asked how they brought their back up. Don't try it.. it wont work. Even with vitamin S, some people's bodies just do not react in a positive way to this type of stimulus.. don't listen to the pro's when they are talking about their bodies.. im not saying they don't know what they're talking about, but i am saying that they are talking about their OWN BODIES.. NOT YOURS. Instead of listening to what they do for themselves.. FIND OUT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.
done ranting
eric downey
11-10-08, 8:47 pm
Please people, do not compare yourselves to pros. They are both incredibly blessed with amazing genetics and "supplementing" with "vitamin S." These things both shorten the time needed to recover and increase the workload a body can take.
DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THEIR AMAZING PHYSIQUES ARE SOLELY DUE TO STEROIDS AND GENETICS.
NO! NO! NO!
They obviously work insanely hard and tailor their daily activities to what fit's their body's responces best and all that "rah-rah"
You can't expect to train as hard as a pro and also be able to recover as quickly as they can. That is why you hear pro's say things like "i train back at least 3 times a week" when asked how they brought their back up. Don't try it.. it wont work. Even with vitamin S, some people's bodies just do not react in a positive way to this type of stimulus.. don't listen to the pro's when they are talking about their bodies.. im not saying they don't know what they're talking about, but i am saying that they are talking about their OWN BODIES.. NOT YOURS. Instead of listening to what they do for themselves.. FIND OUT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.
done ranting
i was pretty pissed off about all that till i got to the end. most pro's spend there time helping those who are younger and smaller like we once were. so to say we dont know what were talking about is retarded. we once were small and weak and now we're not. so we know what it take to become one of us. is you've never done it how can you explain it to some one else.
NPRamirez
11-12-08, 6:17 pm
no, there is no such thing as OVERTRAINING...just under-nurished....if you train your ass off, every day, but you are feeding the beast properly, you are square.
This is all that needs to be said. Of course, we are assuming people have the common sense enough to not train 5 hours a day, despite your nutrition.
i didnt say that the pro's don't know what they're talking about.
in fact, i frequently ask them for advice.
btw, this is getting off topic.