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G Diesel
07-16-07, 3:25 pm
This one has been bothering me for a long fuckin time, so I gotta put it out there. I'm tired of hearing bellyaching about who is or isn't natural. Or who takes this or doesn't take that and Andreas Munzer's death stack and hating on Skip Lacour and Michael Lockett cuz he said/she said "fill in the blank".

Blah, blah fucking blah... I can't listen to it anymore. It no longer matters. Nobody knows what you really aren't on or what you are on. It is a joke. I've been on OTC supplements for 10+ years and have trained my ass off going from 165 to 260 and counting. Guys were pointing the "juice finger" when I was 19 and didn't even weigh 2 bills. Give me a fuckin break. Ya know what I learned? You have to take people at their word... If they lie and lack honor, that is on them.

The general public sees a big guy or somebody in decent shape and automatically points the finger. I've seen the boards question Brad Pitt, Marky Mark and Matthew McConaughey. Are you fucking kidding me? Look at baseball... Newsflash: A lot of the big home run hitters are clean and a lot of the skinny middle relievers are on everything under the sun. Don't discount genetics and hard work and don't be "that guy".

You know who "that guy" is? He's the weak minded fuck so hung up on his many shortcomings that he is the first one to point at the next man and say "all drugs". Do you realize how much of a dick rider that guy appears to be? All he is saying is, "I'm weak, you are better than me and my feeble mind can't conceive of how you can be so much better than me without drugs." Sad.

Guess what else? There are many pathetic fucks in your gym who never ate a bodybuilding meal in their life and train with less intensity than a geriatric cardiac patient yet they have several cycles under their belt. I see it all the time. I also had a friend who was a freak... "Overtrained" his ass off, doing 4 bodyparts in a session, training everything 3 and 4 times a week. An ex-baller, he was like 6' 235 rock hard with 20" arms and strong as an ox. One day I suggested he start drinking protein and taking creatine. Dead serious he said "Nah man, I'm gonna stay natural and stick with Gatorade." This dude would murder every guy who used drugs in my gym, and he thought creatine and protein may as well have been GH and test.

So there you have it... My little rant on the "natural" issue. I've come to the realization that while this argument is somehow intertwined with my life in this sport it doesn't mean jack shit. All we've got is our word... Take it or leave it. Give me a guy on the shit who pays his dues and lives and breathes this lifestyle over a skinny "natural" know-it-all who cries to the heavens everytime a big guy walks by. Give me a slender kid clean as a whistle who chews dirt and rocks and pummels himself every day in the name of being more over some chemist prick who takes every shortcut he can find and looks like Mr. Universe. Hardcore, gentlemen, is a state of mind and being a true bodybuilder has nothing to do with what you are or aren't using... It is about what kind of man you are. Peace, G

IRBS
07-16-07, 3:28 pm
Nice Post

Punisher
07-16-07, 3:28 pm
Gatorade isnt natural.....

brandonA
07-16-07, 3:34 pm
Damn, nothing left to say...Thanks Bro...

-B

7
07-16-07, 3:42 pm
Hey G, what did you put in your coffee this morning? Angry and inspired.

Punisher
07-16-07, 3:54 pm
Hey G, what did you put in your coffee this morning? Angry and inspired.

gatorade and beta alanine

7
07-16-07, 3:56 pm
gatorade and beta alanine

Sounds simple enough.

Big Wides
07-16-07, 4:00 pm
great post, it was something that had to have been said.

spartan300
07-16-07, 4:04 pm
Drugs bad, gatorade good!

Lowdown5
07-16-07, 4:05 pm
Bro, you rant away whenever the need hits. Great point G, much respect.

naturalguy
07-16-07, 4:09 pm
Great post.


I stopped worrying about others long ago. I put all my time and effort into my own journey. This battle is hard enough, you need all your strength and will to push through your own barriers.

Whats the difference if someone is natural or not? It doesn't affect me one way or the other.

gnoll5
07-16-07, 4:11 pm
finally someone said it...nicely done G.

G Diesel
07-16-07, 4:44 pm
Drugs bad, gatorade good!

Funny, but no. For review...

Whining bad, testicular fortitude good.

Gossipping bad, sincerity good.

Hating bad, personal investment good.

Short cuts bad, hard work good.

Insecurity bad, confidence good.

Peace, G

jeff00z28
07-16-07, 4:57 pm
reminds me of this big dude that comes into my gym every once in a while that doesn't even train that often and throws around 120 db's on military like nothing and has no clue about diet. I heard someone ask him if he was on steroids and he barely knew what they were. some are just blessed

spartan300
07-16-07, 5:04 pm
Funny, but no. For review...

Whining bad, testicular fortitude good.

Gossipping bad, sincerity good.

Hating bad, personal investment good.

Short cuts bad, hard work good.

Insecurity bad, confidence good.

Peace, G

I lost overall titles to the following... Samir Bannout, Lance Dreher, Tim Belknap and Bronston Austin. Why? because they decided to opt for the chicken shit way out! I give a fuck!

G Diesel
07-16-07, 5:12 pm
I lost overall titles to the following... Samir Bannout, Lance Dreher, Tim Belknap and Bronston Austin. Why? because they decided to opt for the chicken shit way out! I give a fuck!

Were all things supposed to be equal in these cases? Were they competing in drug tested events while on shit? If that is the case that is the chicken shit way out, no doubt about it... That said, if they passed the same tests as everybody else, is the fact that they were better on that day sufficient enough evidence?

I know those names, some of which are very big names, and obviously considering the levels they reached in the IFBB/NPC they at some point in their careers were very much enhanced, but does that mean that they were every time they competed at every stage of their careers? I would assume that some of the guys with genetics to win the whole thing on a level where everybody is gassed out of their minds, could also win a title on a level playing field where everybody is clean. Peace, G

Liftbig21
07-16-07, 5:15 pm
Somebody had to say it ...what better person then,G?...We got too many people like the ones he described in the world and maybe even some on this forvm.Read up boys and make this forvm a better place.....Thanks G.

dIdDy
07-16-07, 5:17 pm
i LIKE TO PRETEND STEROIDS DON'T EXIST. that way, we are all on the same playing field and that means i have alot of work to do

cmoody
07-16-07, 5:17 pm
Awsome Post G, The sad thing is that the people that need to read it more than likely won't.

My younger brother got pulled aside by his football coaches being accussed of juicin because of his significate size and strength gains over the ENTIRE OFF-SEASON.

He has busted and still is busting his ass and deserves everthing he has gained.

spartan300
07-16-07, 5:24 pm
Were all things supposed to be equal in these cases? Were they competing in drug tested events while on shit? If that is the case that is the chicken shit way out, no doubt about it... That said, if they passed the same tests as everybody else, is the fact that they were better on that day sufficient enough evidence?

I know those names, some of which are very big names, and obviously considering the levels they reached in the IFBB/NPC they at some point in their careers were very much enhanced, but does that mean that they were every time they competed at every stage of their careers? I would assume that some of the guys with genetics to win the whole thing on a level where everybody is gassed out of their minds, could also win a title on a level playing field where everybody is clean. Peace, G

your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle my old man used to say! However, If the playing field was leveled I felt there would have been different outcomes in each of those contests. Sour grapes maybe, but good guys do finish last(or in this case second)

MassMonster
07-16-07, 5:24 pm
kickass post bro... we are in the time where people need to get thier priorities straight and stop worrying about the superstars and only on themselves.... there are no short cuts... because all those supposed short cuts eventually leads to a dead end.... and then what?

Rhetoric
07-16-07, 7:44 pm
This reminds me of Ronnie Coleman's response when he was once asked about steroids... "Do you think you could just take some drugs and look like me?"
Like you said, hardcore is a state of mind and it matters not whether a particular bodybuilder (or any athlete, for that matter) is taking "performance enhancers" as long as they are dedicated, focused and truly put all of themselves into what they do. Drugs do not seperate winners from losers, champions from failures or the best from the worst - work ethic and the ability to thrive in the face of adversity does.

MELTDOWN
07-16-07, 8:11 pm
top shelf post brother G. and never mind the fact the alot of us here have been training longer that some of the legion have been alive. up at 4am and down at 10ish...bustin aszz in the gym bustin azz on the job, bustin azz to make time for wife and kids...and still get the "juce" comments...hell yeah, pull some hair and run the tests....i spent a plane ride with ted nugent and he actually asked if we (bodybuilders) all "used the stuff" or not......i just looked at him and replied "just like all you rockers drink,snort, and shoot it up, right?" point made to the nuge (btw, he'll take the tests as well, clean ,brother, clean). i do often look back and think "what if ?"..tons of offers, and equal amount of "no thanks"...deep inside you'll know why, and you'll know why not...

Giant Killer
07-16-07, 8:18 pm
Great post G, that shit needed to be said. And by none better than the man who is at 260 and counting by busting ass 120% every day. Diet, livin', training, all in check.

While someone else is bitchin', I'll be passing them on the right with a strong vengeance. No room for anything else, the only way I can fulfill my potential is tunnel vision and perserverance. Gotta go, dues to pay.

MELTDOWN
07-16-07, 9:02 pm
my sis got me this for b-day this year.......
http://bodybuilding.com/store/tshirts/steroidswhite.jpg

carry on !!

dIdDy
07-16-07, 9:06 pm
my sis got me this for b-day this year.......
http://bodybuilding.com/store/tshirts/steroidswhite.jpg

carry on !!

haha, I knew what shirt it was before i even clicked the link

Testpolska
07-16-07, 11:12 pm
In the world of bodybuilding its everyone's personal business, what they choose or don't choose to do with theirselves. The respectful know this, and leave it at that. The pathetic group together to talk about who is using drugs. So if you ever find yourself being accused of something, best bet is to laugh it off. No sense in getting your blood pressure up over the chatter of the smalls.

Respect and Honor in the gym and outside. Don't go picking fights but suffer no fools gladly either.

Suleiman
07-16-07, 11:37 pm
This one has been bothering me for a long fuckin time, so I gotta put it out there. I'm tired of hearing bellyaching about who is or isn't natural. Or who takes this or doesn't take that and Andreas Munzer's death stack and hating on Skip Lacour and Michael Lockett cuz he said/she said "fill in the blank".

Blah, blah fucking blah... I can't listen to it anymore. It no longer matters. Nobody knows what you really aren't on or what you are on. It is a joke. I've been on OTC supplements for 10+ years and have trained my ass off going from 165 to 260 and counting. Guys were pointing the "juice finger" when I was 19 and didn't even weigh 2 bills. Give me a fuckin break. Ya know what I learned? You have to take people at their word... If they lie and lack honor, that is on them.

The general public sees a big guy or somebody in decent shape and automatically points the finger. I've seen the boards question Brad Pitt, Marky Mark and Matthew McConaughey. Are you fucking kidding me? Look at baseball... Newsflash: A lot of the big home run hitters are clean and a lot of the skinny middle relievers are on everything under the sun. Don't discount genetics and hard work and don't be "that guy".

You know who "that guy" is? He's the weak minded fuck so hung up on his many shortcomings that he is the first one to point at the next man and say "all drugs". Do you realize how much of a dick rider that guy appears to be? All he is saying is, "I'm weak, you are better than me and my feeble mind can't conceive of how you can be so much better than me without drugs." Sad.

Guess what else? There are many pathetic fucks in your gym who never ate a bodybuilding meal in their life and train with less intensity than a geriatric cardiac patient yet they have several cycles under their belt. I see it all the time. I also had a friend who was a freak... "Overtrained" his ass off, doing 4 bodyparts in a session, training everything 3 and 4 times a week. An ex-baller, he was like 6' 235 rock hard with 20" arms and strong as an ox. One day I suggested he start drinking protein and taking creatine. Dead serious he said "Nah man, I'm gonna stay natural and stick with Gatorade." This dude would murder every guy who used drugs in my gym, and he thought creatine and protein may as well have been GH and test.

So there you have it... My little rant on the "natural" issue. I've come to the realization that while this argument is somehow intertwined with my life in this sport it doesn't mean jack shit. All we've got is our word... Take it or leave it. Give me a guy on the shit who pays his dues and lives and breathes this lifestyle over a skinny "natural" know-it-all who cries to the heavens everytime a big guy walks by. Give me a slender kid clean as a whistle who chews dirt and rocks and pummels himself every day in the name of being more over some chemist prick who takes every shortcut he can find and looks like Mr. Universe. Hardcore, gentlemen, is a state of mind and being a true bodybuilder has nothing to do with what you are or aren't using... It is about what kind of man you are. Peace, G

you know i just remembered that when the forum first started a watchmen said that we can get as big as those ppl who use roids....roids is the straight line between the two points and natural(no roids) is a crazy maze that will take time.....and so in the end fuck all those stupid shit heads who take roids because they're not willing to sacrifice more to achieve their goals....

Macrobolic
07-17-07, 2:36 am
....So there you have it... My little rant on the "natural" issue. I've come to the realization that while this argument is somehow intertwined with my life in this sport it doesn't mean jack shit. All we've got is our word... Take it or leave it. Give me a guy on the shit who pays his dues and lives and breathes this lifestyle over a skinny "natural" know-it-all who cries to the heavens everytime a big guy walks by. Give me a slender kid clean as a whistle who chews dirt and rocks and pummels himself every day in the name of being more over some chemist prick who takes every shortcut he can find and looks like Mr. Universe. Hardcore, gentlemen, is a state of mind and being a true bodybuilder has nothing to do with what you are or aren't using... It is about what kind of man you are. Peace, G

Couldn't agree more.

While I am natural, I could care less if someone else is using. That is their decision. I don't like it that there are people that try to cheat in natural contests, but whatever. All I can do is what I can do, and not let what I can't change get me down.

DetroitMuscle
07-17-07, 5:09 am
I am not one to throw the juice finger, just dont be a bitch about it. There are so many guys that juice that walk around all big lifting anything and everything in there path acting as if they "did it"...fuck that- you didnt do shit you cheated.

I pay my dues, nuff said. It does piss me off when a guy comes in that you know 100% for a fact that he juiced, it could be the markings in between his delts, it could be the noticable gyno ect...those of us who have educated ourselves about juice cycles and done the research behind them knows what it looks like. Anyways...these guys walk around like they have accomplished something...and I am sorry but you havent. You have taken the easy way out, you have cheated you have taken the wrong path.

Its not about pointing the finger and saying "juicer" its about knowing for a fact or not...bottom line those of you who point and do not know FACT need to stfu but if you know then feel free. Those of us who know know...those of us who dont dont- its that simple.

Juicer=Cheater nuff said. I bust my balls and it might take me a few more years then those cheaters out there but at least I will have balls in the end, not to mention a level of satisfaction that people who cheat and take the easy way out will never achieve.

FYI- I am not some "6'0 145 lb slender bitch" either. I am 220lbs and people ask me all the time if I juice...they just dont know how to tell. They see a big guy with veins sticking out of there arms, chest and shoulders and they think the worse. I guess my point is KNOW BEFORE YOU ACCUSE!

G Diesel
07-17-07, 9:27 am
In the world of bodybuilding its everyone's personal business, what they choose or don't choose to do with theirselves. The respectful know this, and leave it at that. The pathetic group together to talk about who is using drugs. So if you ever find yourself being accused of something, best bet is to laugh it off. No sense in getting your blood pressure up over the chatter of the smalls.

Respect and Honor in the gym and outside. Don't go picking fights but suffer no fools gladly either.

Very solid post and good perspective...

Peace, G

violator
07-17-07, 9:42 am
when i step on the weight deck, i go blind, all i can see is the iron, i dont give afuck about 99% of the peeps there, simply because they dont get it, the lifestyle, the intensity the fury....
& i dont hear any of them with there uneducated talk either, the only sounds audible to me is the hardcore thrashing inside my skull.
So let them point, let them talk, im the violator & i just dont give a fuck...

"where ignorance reigns, life is lost." - Zach de la Rocha

BigAnt
07-17-07, 9:49 am
If you have the time to look in the gym, looking for markings, gyno, *which can be caused with out taking "stuff* who is benching what, why is so and so getting weaker after 10 weeks...

YOU AIN'T TRAINING HARD ENOUGH !

Hollow
07-17-07, 10:37 am
If you have the time to look in the gym, looking for markings, gyno, *which can be caused with out taking "stuff* who is benching what, why is so and so getting weaker after 10 weeks...

YOU AIN'T TRAINING HARD ENOUGH !

That covers it!

Good post G.

If your in this for yourself and nobody else, then why worry about what the next guy might be taking. All your doing is falling in with the rest of soceity pointing fingers at each other.

dominate77
07-17-07, 11:19 am
This one has been bothering me for a long fuckin time, so I gotta put it out there. I'm tired of hearing bellyaching about who is or isn't natural. Or who takes this or doesn't take that and Andreas Munzer's death stack and hating on Skip Lacour and Michael Lockett cuz he said/she said "fill in the blank".

Blah, blah fucking blah... I can't listen to it anymore. It no longer matters. Nobody knows what you really aren't on or what you are on. It is a joke. I've been on OTC supplements for 10+ years and have trained my ass off going from 165 to 260 and counting. Guys were pointing the "juice finger" when I was 19 and didn't even weigh 2 bills. Give me a fuckin break. Ya know what I learned? You have to take people at their word... If they lie and lack honor, that is on them.

The general public sees a big guy or somebody in decent shape and automatically points the finger. I've seen the boards question Brad Pitt, Marky Mark and Matthew McConaughey. Are you fucking kidding me? Look at baseball... Newsflash: A lot of the big home run hitters are clean and a lot of the skinny middle relievers are on everything under the sun. Don't discount genetics and hard work and don't be "that guy".

You know who "that guy" is? He's the weak minded fuck so hung up on his many shortcomings that he is the first one to point at the next man and say "all drugs". Do you realize how much of a dick rider that guy appears to be? All he is saying is, "I'm weak, you are better than me and my feeble mind can't conceive of how you can be so much better than me without drugs." Sad.

Guess what else? There are many pathetic fucks in your gym who never ate a bodybuilding meal in their life and train with less intensity than a geriatric cardiac patient yet they have several cycles under their belt. I see it all the time. I also had a friend who was a freak... "Overtrained" his ass off, doing 4 bodyparts in a session, training everything 3 and 4 times a week. An ex-baller, he was like 6' 235 rock hard with 20" arms and strong as an ox. One day I suggested he start drinking protein and taking creatine. Dead serious he said "Nah man, I'm gonna stay natural and stick with Gatorade." This dude would murder every guy who used drugs in my gym, and he thought creatine and protein may as well have been GH and test.

So there you have it... My little rant on the "natural" issue. I've come to the realization that while this argument is somehow intertwined with my life in this sport it doesn't mean jack shit. All we've got is our word... Take it or leave it. Give me a guy on the shit who pays his dues and lives and breathes this lifestyle over a skinny "natural" know-it-all who cries to the heavens everytime a big guy walks by. Give me a slender kid clean as a whistle who chews dirt and rocks and pummels himself every day in the name of being more over some chemist prick who takes every shortcut he can find and looks like Mr. Universe. Hardcore, gentlemen, is a state of mind and being a true bodybuilder has nothing to do with what you are or aren't using... It is about what kind of man you are. Peace, G

people will always hate and fear what they don't understand, that wont change

"do you realize how much of a dick rider this guy appears to be" HAHAHAHA

nice post man

violator
07-17-07, 11:22 am
If you have the time to look in the gym, looking for markings, gyno, *which can be caused with out taking "stuff* who is benching what, why is so and so getting weaker after 10 weeks...

YOU AIN'T TRAINING HARD ENOUGH !

i second that, big ups bigant....

peace

Punisher
07-17-07, 12:09 pm
G Diesel was not hating on people who are enhanced guys!!

He is against being a critic of others, This is what some of you are being in this very thread...

worry about yourself and what you do

live2lift
07-17-07, 1:00 pm
Well spoken words G. Damn nobody says it better than you. It sucks because everytime I think that I have something clever to post on this board you come out with some really deep philisophical shit that makes me not even want to post. Just kidding...this is one of the most awesome threads that I have read.
In my opinion, you just need to worry about being the hardest training motherfucker in the gym everytime you step foot in that place. That is all we should be worried about. If we are going into the gym and leaving nothing in that place when we are done, if we are drenched in the blood and sweat of a true bodybuilder, If we are almost ready to throw up every leg day and can't walk a set of stairs when we are done...THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS. I agree...who gives a fuck if you are natural or not! Train Hard, Eat Right and that is all that matters. By the way, because I think it should be said. Too many people think that if you are on "juice" that you don't have to work out as hard. That is bullshit. Those are the ones who juice and don't get results. When you are on the sauce, you should be working out twice as hard, not only because you can and still recover fully, but because you need to be able to support all of that extra test you are putting in your body.
One last thought...and this goes to you G because you mentioned it. Doesn't it feel good when you are natural and someone accuses you of being on the sauce. That to me is one of the greatest compliments you can get as a natural bodybuilder. It just shows how much hard work you put in at the gym. Peace and Train Hard!

bigrhino
07-17-07, 1:07 pm
I don't care how much shit everyone else is on.
People bitch b/c so and so juiced or he is on that.

Why does it matter? As far as I am concerned, no one is "natural" That is such a stupid grouping. When does someone become "non-natural" When stick the needle in? When they take 10g of glutamine in a sitting? M-Stak? Let me tell you what, no where in the "natural" world will you find the Pak.

G Diesel
07-17-07, 1:43 pm
One last thought...and this goes to you G because you mentioned it. Doesn't it feel good when you are natural and someone accuses you of being on the sauce. That to me is one of the greatest compliments you can get as a natural bodybuilder. It just shows how much hard work you put in at the gym.

Agreed man... It is an awesome compliment and as long as you and those you care about know the truth, then who gives a fuck what some asshole thinks? Peace, G

7
07-17-07, 1:51 pm
Agreed man... It is an awesome compliment and as long as you and those you care about know the truth, then who gives a fuck what some asshole thinks? Peace, G

Hey G, could you summarize your original post in a sentence or two? There was a lot there. Thanks.

ryanlemley1
07-17-07, 1:56 pm
well said, well said. i'm at the same point in my life. sick and tired of this and that. if they use who gives a flying flip. as long as they or us or whoever trains there tail off in the gym and has the mind and gut to have what it takes to be ANIMAL, then so be it. please..natural and using is a very thin line that we all must be careful with.

iron junkie
07-17-07, 2:28 pm
Guys reading through this stuff from serious iron junkies not just poor little me just starting, squating 120 and waking up the next morning and asking my wife where she hid the bat she pummelled me with in my sleep, how big a bone of contention the dark side is. I have been in the gym for 6mths now busting my balls at all times and seeing the bigs guys flexing to the little girls and not really lifting much and I look around and see all the other little guys looking at the big guys and wondering a few tablets a few jabs and hey that could be me. I'm from Ireland and its everywhere all you have to do is ask. Not only do I think its cheating but dangerous when I look at a 17 yr old in the locker room handing over money for shit that will probably do more harm than good because it doesn't come with advice I think how easy people are led and it scares me because the little guy goes to his girlfriend in a bad mood and slaps her about or worse gets depressed and jumps of something high its the bigger picture that scares me. Guys will ask you want to make life easy for yourself see me after your done simple reply just starting come back in 10yrs when I might be done.

Love the site enjoy the pain does this mean I'm as fucked up as the rest of you guys.

G Diesel
07-17-07, 2:33 pm
Hey G, could you summarize your original post in a sentence or two? There was a lot there. Thanks.

Summary...

Quit complaing about who is or isn't bigger than you and what they are or aren't using... Cuz you don't know and you never will. Focus on you and becoming the best you can be within the confines of what you feel is right for you and fuck what anyone else thinks or knows or thinks they know. Peace, G

7
07-17-07, 2:34 pm
Summary...

Quit complaing about who is or isn't bigger than you and what they are or aren't using... Cuz you don't know and you never will. Focus on you and becoming the best you can be within the confines of what you feel is right for you and fuck what anyone else thinks or knows or thinks they know. Peace, G

Thanks G. Can't argue with that.

G Diesel
07-17-07, 3:00 pm
Thanks G. Can't argue with that.

It is funny though, because I saw a lot of that same shit I was talking about right here in the midst of this thread. The intent perhaps was unclear or was misinterpreted. Peace, G

live2lift
07-17-07, 7:49 pm
Love the site enjoy the pain does this mean I'm as fucked up as the rest of you guys.

Welcome to the brotherhood if iron...there is no better place to be. We are all here to help each other out, so feel free to ask anything here and your question will be answered without ridicule or being looked down upon because you may not be as big or strong as someone else. Nobody judges anyone here. Once again...Welcome and enjoy your stay.

By the way loving pain may be a little fucked up but in my mind there is no better way of life...hell it just lets you know that you are living. Peace and Train Hard!

Naturally Huge
07-17-07, 8:18 pm
Good post G. However, what is bullshit is when a steroid user tries to compete in a natural, drug-free show.
I admit I've done a couple of cycles years ago, but I trained my ass off and ate like a starving POW. I really don't give a shit if someone in the gym juices, but what gets me is that some use it as a substitute for hard training and good eating. It's much more challenging and rewarding to build a good physique naturally that with the crutch of steroids.
One other thing. Look at Dorian Yates. He did not have the best genetics in the IFBB during his reign as Mr. O, but he had the hardcore mindset and he worked his ass off harder than any other pro at the time. He said if the other competitors had his mindset and drive to win, then he'd be in trouble. Steroids or not, it's about drive, consistency, and keeping the hunger alive.

Crash
07-17-07, 10:16 pm
It is funny though, because I saw a lot of that same shit I was talking about right here in the midst of this thread. The intent perhaps was unclear or was misinterpreted. Peace, G

People are to busy concentrating on what everyone else is doing, than what they themselves are. People want to be THE BEST period. Not simply the best they can be. And when they fall short of that goal, then begins the finger pointing.

I believe its quoted in the "the good book" Before removing the mote in thy neighbor's eye, remove the beam in thine own. Some one I used to work with broke it down like this. "When you point your finger at someone, you have three more pointing right back at you."

People have to accept the facts that the world isn't fair. If I had started hitting the weights when I was ten years younger, I might have been able to make something of it. Now, I accept the fact that I will never be a "Pro", I will probably never enter a contest, I am content with being the best I can be, giving 110% in the weight room, and leaving it all on the gym floor when I leave. I use the "tools" placed before me to do the best I can with what I have. Everyone has the choice of free will, and should others use "tools" set before them, then they will reap the rewards and the conquences of their actions, same as I.

People are too caught up in the Destination, instead of the Journey. They want a fucking 37 dollar trophy that says "I'm number one!" instead of the privilage of looking in the mirror and seeing a man staring back at them.

ncsu06
07-17-07, 11:41 pm
People are too caught up in the Destination, instead of the Journey. They want a fucking 37 dollar trophy that says "I'm number one!" instead of the privilage of looking in the mirror and seeing a man staring back at them.

has to be one of the greatest quotes i have read on this forvm ever...(sorry if it has already been said) but i think it hit me when i read "seeing an MAN staring back at them" with the emphasis on "MAN"....crash i give it to you on this one man...

but for the topic of conversation i must say i agree with crash...people are too worried with what other people are doing and what other people think....in the end the battle is only with yourself...if you are satisfied that you stayed clean or juiced and you are happy with yourself that is all that matter...who gives a shit what other people say.....good luck brothers

NPC Chicka
07-18-07, 12:14 am
G-

Agreed with most everyone else. Excellent post and it's a very important subject.

Most of the readers who may frequent this board, may "know" me from my "home base," which is Muscle Mayhem. My reputation on that board mainly stems from all the contribution I make in the Women's Chemical Warfare section. As a result of those "contributions" many feel that I am an advocate for drug use in bodybuilding.

I am not. I am an advocate for personal choice and education of the drugs.

These drugs are NOT for everyone. I'll repeat that: these drugs, the anabolics that are the "devil" to sports/athletics/bodybuilding, are not for everyone or for all athletes. Dues must be paid in training ( regardless of the sport), nutrition, rest, supplementation, competition, and genetics. Understanding that work comes BEFORE supplementation with these compounds, is an integral part of understanding what they can and cannot do.

Drugs are training tools, and nothing more. They do not make you a bodybuilder. They do not make you a phenomenal baseball player. They do not make you a champion cyclist. They don't make you "anything." If we gave these compounds to couch potatos who insisted on sitting on the couch watching TV 23 hours a day, they'd just be "enhanced" couch potatos- nothing more. Kevin Levrone isn't Kevin because he juices. Kevin is Kevin because of his genetics, his commitment to his diet, his training regimen, and his personal contribution to the development of one of the best physiques of all time. All of these attributes have NOTHING to do with the drugs he used while competing.

Drugs don't do the work. They don't make the sacrifice. They don't get up when the alarm goes off at 5 am for 60 minutes of pure hell on the Stepmill at week 20 of a 24 week diet to a pro card. They don't make you or allow you to exist off of broccoli and cod all day, every day. They don't reflect your commitment or your suffering.

So to those who say that drugs "make the ride easier" I'd emphatically declare No, they do not.

Anyone who chooses to go the drug route must take responsibility for that choice. That includes doing research on these compounds, having blood work done, consulting with a knowledgeable trainer/coach on the subject, cycling the drugs at the appropriate times, consulting legal counsel " in case" of problems with the law, and accepting the health potential risks involved.

It becomes then, not a question of who's natural and who's not, it becomes a question of who's done the "internal" work and research to make the best decision for them. This is not a subject that is "roundtabled." This is not "decision by committee."

No, this is a decision of singular vision and singular choice.



NPC Chicka

Macrobolic
07-18-07, 1:39 am
...I am not. I am an advocate for personal choice and education of the drugs....

X2, that's why I read up about the drugs. I just want to be able to help someone decide what is best for them, let them know of the possible side effects and what will happen to their bodies so that they don't get hurt.

musclealchemist
07-18-07, 1:47 am
G has a good point, just work your ass off, and you will get whats coming to you. There is a saying in my music building in college: "the harder i work, the luckier i seem to get". Justice will be served no matter if its now or 50 years from now. So just eat, and lift big and whatever happens happens.

Peace

BamBam
07-18-07, 1:55 am
I agree...when u r natural and look roided up...great feeling. There r dudes in the gym who r older than me and on the sauce who I can outlift anyday. I do know many many people though who r on roids and can wipe the floor with me...a.k.a. my trainer. So I dont care if u r natural or not...Hell if my career calls for it down the road (long time from now) I will go on em'...Just to get to the top I will do whatever needs to be done. I will howver stay clean for now though...I liek the feeling.

"Green Jacket, Gold Jacket...Who gives a shit?!"- Happy Gilmore

This quote spoke to me when I saw this thread. As long as he got the jacket, it didnt matter what color...and as long as I am the best and get the muscles I want/need etc....I dont care how I do it. It's my body and my Journey.

IMO.......

Toni69
07-18-07, 5:24 am
Awesome thread and excellent posts by G and NPC Chicka...thank you!

G Diesel
07-18-07, 9:45 am
Good post G. However, what is bullshit is when a steroid user tries to compete in a natural, drug-free show.


Agreed man... That is a complete and utter lack of honor and integrity. Ideally an athlete should be able to step onstage and know that they are competing on a level playing field and that the hardest working athlete who presents the best package on that day will win the show. But then again, this is competitive bodybuilding as we currently know it that we are talking about. Peace, G

7
07-18-07, 11:06 am
Agreed man... That is a complete and utter lack of honor and integrity. Ideally an athlete should be able to step onstage and know that they are competing on a level playing field and that the hardest working athlete who presents the best package on that day will win the show. But then again, this is competitive bodybuilding as we currently know it that we are talking about. Peace, G

Hey G, you are a man of ideals (and ideas). I can really respect that. But aren't you saying two different things in this thread? On one hand, you're telling people to stop worrying about what others are or aren't doing. Only worry about yourself. On the other, you're lamenting the fact that others may be doing something they shouldn't, and changing the competitive landscape. Why call out someone's honor or integrity? Just let it be, no?

G Diesel
07-18-07, 11:29 am
Hey G, you are a man of ideals (and ideas). I can really respect that. But aren't you saying two different things in this thread? On one hand, you're telling people to stop worrying about what others are or aren't doing. Only worry about yourself. On the other, you're lamenting the fact that others may be doing something they shouldn't, and changing the competitive landscape. Why call out someone's honor or integrity? Just let it be, no?

What I'm saying is that there is no point in concerning yourself with what the next man is doing. Focus on you, because the rest is futile and counter-productive. Athletes who choose to participate in tested events but seek to circumvent the rules do, to me, compromise the competitive landscape, but that is on them and karma will sort that shit out. My point was to not waste your time with assumptions about the next guy, instead channel that energy toward bettering yourself. Peace, G

7
07-18-07, 11:34 am
What I'm saying is that there is no point in concerning yourself with what the next man is doing. Focus on you, because the rest is futile and counter-productive. Athletes who choose to participate in tested events but seek to circumvent the rules do, to me, compromise the competitive landscape, but that is on them and karma will sort that shit out. My point was to not waste your time with assumptions about the next guy, instead channel that energy toward bettering yourself. Peace, G

Very Eastern of you. Always a pleasure conversing with you G.

BigAnt
07-18-07, 11:40 am
Natty or Not...

So, worry about getting your squat up 50lbs, or how about getting all of your 7 meals in...did your cardio, what about rest, geting enough...

'Goodies' don't make a champion, they m i g h t give people a certain "edge" over others (natty) but if you take the "goodies" away from all the best body builders, the best will still be the best!

When I compete, I don't worry about who is "on" because in the back of mind, I know most of these cats didn't suffer and train as hard as me...let's not talk about comparing drive-determination either....for me...I am on my game with this!

IT IS CALLED WORK ETHIC AND DISCIPLINE!

Enough said!

BamBam
07-18-07, 1:08 pm
I mean hell guys...look at it this way...

Arnold Schwarzenegger- Many of us look up to this one man, and idolize him....I know I do. He is arguably (aside from Coleman and a FEW others...) the best bodybuilder that ever lived and made bodybuilding what it is...He brought it out of the dark (so to speak). He is a multi millionaire movie star and governor as well as being married to a Kennedy. Has helped millions of underpriveleged kids and handicapped kids as well. I mean, the dude is the picture of the All-American dream come true and ultimate success story and someone many people can look up to in and out of bodybuilding. BUT.................................he has used steroids. Does that make ANY of us love him any less? Do those things take away form what he has done in this country and make them any less kick ass.....? As BigAnt said, if you take away the "goodies", and make everyone natural...Arnold would still come out on top because of his drive, and love of this sport. So I agre with BigAnt.

Tucsondog
08-03-07, 4:04 pm
Great thread. Being that I am going to compete for the first time in March 08, in a Natural show, and I'm 44 years old, I do want to do WHATEVER is natural to enhance myself, to go along with all the diet and hard dedication in the gym.

But - to the point of this thread - I really want to know your thoughts on the "middle" ground. I don't juice but, I'll be honest and say that I did in fact get my T and other hormone levels checked last year, got results that were lowest in the range, and I'm now on HRT. Yes, I stick a needle in my leg every other day, and also take an anti-estrogen to keep my T, and especially my "free" T, at the TOP level in the range, while keeping my estrogen at the bottom level.

Am I still natural? Yes. At least according to the rules of the natural bodybuilding testing. I was told, first hand, that as long as my levels for my blood work come in within normal ranges, then I will be considered natural for the sake of the contest.

And, your collective thoughts? Am I "cheating" to some of you? I personally don't think so. I bust my ass in the gym. I methodically keep track of my diet on logs. I do the work. I just want the chemicals in my body to be at the optimum - NOT ARTIFICIALLY HIGH - levels, to make sure I'm getting 100% out of my training and nutrition. God didn't allow me to have the built in framework to be a monster, but science allows me to reach my full potential.

Do I care about my competition...not really. I'll bring my best package. They better bring their best...

krazyassmexican
08-03-07, 4:06 pm
i would say ur still natural since they are just regular supps but who knows i am probably wrong
Great thread. Being that I am going to compete for the first time in March 08, in a Natural show, and I'm 44 years old, I do want to do WHATEVER is natural to enhance myself, to go along with all the diet and hard dedication in the gym.

But - to the point of this thread - I really want to know your thoughts on the "middle" ground. I don't juice but, I'll be honest and say that I did in fact get my T and other hormone levels checked last year, got results that were lowest in the range, and I'm now on HRT. Yes, I stick a needle in my leg every other day, and also take an anti-estrogen to keep my T, and especially my "free" T, at the TOP level in the range, while keeping my estrogen at the bottom level.

Am I still natural? Yes. At least according to the rules of the natural bodybuilding testing. I was told, first hand, that as long as my levels for my blood work come in within normal ranges, then I will be considered natural for the sake of the contest.

And, your collective thoughts? Am I "cheating" to some of you? I personally don't think so. I bust my ass in the gym. I methodically keep track of my diet on logs. I do the work. I just want the chemicals in my body to be at the optimum - NOT ARTIFICIALLY HIGH - levels, to make sure I'm getting 100% out of my training and nutrition. God didn't allow me to have the built in framework to be a monster, but science allows me to reach my full potential.

Do I care about my competition...not really. I'll bring my best package. They better bring their best...

pdiesel
08-03-07, 11:01 pm
Short cuts bad, hard work good.




Agreed 100%

pdiesel
08-03-07, 11:16 pm
To add a bit more, I will tell you what pisses me off about juicing, and please all of you, tell me if you feel the same. I hate it when people claim they are natural and have been known to juice. It's like they are trying to be in the same class as those who have not chosen the easy way out and want the same recognition. I'll tell you, I've met a lot of these people. I honestly just turn the other cheek, and keep my mouth shut. But in my head, I lose a lot of respect for them.

Like I said, if you are juicing, I just mind my business and do what I have to do. I'll admit though, when others who were once smaller or less condioned than me soon just blow up (from juicing) and get all sorts of recognition, I get a bit steamed. It pisses me off, but only reminds me to work harder. If he's juicing, that means he must have added intensity/power. To me, that means that I have do dig even deeper than that guy, pushing myself BEYOND the limit, working twice as hard. To add to my intensity, I think of fires and destruction lol.

On one occasion, a known juicehead came up to me and claimed that he would be entering his first show in the near future. He then shocked me by adding that the show would be a natural one. I immedietely cringed. I mean, this guy was out of control. He would go two weeks between cycles. I don't know much about detox and roids, but JUST two weeks? That's a disease in my mind. Also, by him claiming he was natural, he lost a lot of respect from me. I also felt bad for all of the natural guys who he would be going up against who probably put in the same amount of work as he did but would probably fail because of his little "boost." That shit is immoral and just wrong.

So, do any of you feel the same/different?

kyderz
08-04-07, 12:06 am
To add a bit more, I will tell you what pisses me off about juicing, and please all of you, tell me if you feel the same. I hate it when people claim they are natural and have been known to juice. It's like they are trying to be in the same class as those who have not chosen the easy way out and want the same recognition. I'll tell you, I've met a lot of these people. I honestly just turn the other cheek, and keep my mouth shut. But in my head, I lose a lot of respect for them.

Like I said, if you are juicing, I just mind my business and do what I have to do. I'll admit though, when others who were once smaller or less condioned than me soon just blow up (from juicing) and get all sorts of recognition, I get a bit steamed. It pisses me off, but only reminds me to work harder. If he's juicing, that means he must have added intensity/power. To me, that means that I have do dig even deeper than that guy, pushing myself BEYOND the limit, working twice as hard. To add to my intensity, I think of fires and destruction lol.

On one occasion, a known juicehead came up to me and claimed that he would be entering his first show in the near future. He then shocked me by adding that the show would be a natural one. I immedietely cringed. I mean, this guy was out of control. He would go two weeks between cycles. I don't know much about detox and roids, but JUST two weeks? That's a disease in my mind. Also, by him claiming he was natural, he lost a lot of respect from me. I also felt bad for all of the natural guys who he would be going up against who probably put in the same amount of work as he did but would probably fail because of his little "boost." That shit is immoral and just wrong.

So, do any of you feel the same/different?

I do not understand why you guys say "take the easy way out".

"Juicing" as you may call it is not easy. It takes discipline also, and a lot of research.

If I were to get on a cycle tomorrow, I would at least research what I'm taking, know possible side effects, and not take the "easy way out".

Secondly, I would not compete in a "natural" show.

Would you still despise me?

I have put in time training, doing my research, eating properly, and most importantly not overdoing it on the goods.

Now you have no reason to despise me.

Also, how do you know all of these people are on drugs?

Arnold stopped competing after his 6th win of the O for a couple years, then came back.

You can blow up in a matter of weeks if you know what you're doing.

I may be 18, I may not be as mature or as experienced as most people here, but you better believe me I know my shit.

Not to call you out, I just want to know what you'd think if the previously stated was true.

With all due respect..

TheDominator
08-04-07, 12:48 am
Hey G, good shit man. You are right, it is about what kind of man you are, natural or not. Bodybuilding is a way of life for us all, we should have respect for the ones who shed their blood and sweat day in a day out...it's a personal decision, but it will not affect me in any way as long as that individual is fuckin giving the intensity it takes to be an animal....peace

maddawg
08-04-07, 1:13 am
i could care less if someone juices or not, if it aint got shit to do with me or my trainin why does it matter, im there to make myself bigger and stronger not to worry about whos hittin the gear that just gives me somethin more to shoot for. gear is not always the easy way out you gotta be on a good diet and be smart about it, eat wrong get fat, train like a dumb ass get hurt. there is more shit to worry about while your juicin than when your takin otc in my eyes.

gear or no gear you must train insane or remain the same.

kyderz
08-04-07, 1:27 am
i could care less if someone juices or not, if it aint got shit to do with me or my trainin why does it matter, im there to make myself bigger and stronger not to worry about whos hittin the gear that just gives me somethin more to shoot for. gear is not always the easy way out you gotta be on a good diet and be smart about it, eat wrong get fat, train like a dumb ass get hurt. there is more shit to worry about while your juicin than when your takin otc in my eyes.

gear or no gear you must train insane or remain the same.

Thank you very much.

Far Beyond Driven
08-04-07, 11:39 am
It all boils down to ethics. I will never be ronnie coleman, no matter how much I juice. It's that simple. Neither would he, without his legendary workouts. The fact of the matter is, Genetics are the end all, be all of the sport. That being said, yes, I think those who lie about it are punks. I know 2 guys at work that are unapologetic users, and I have all the respect in the world for them, because they display the workouts to back it up. Bottom line, there is no such thing as cheating, unless it's stated that it's a natural show. All the roids in the world won't make one damn bit of difference if your genetics suck. I agree with the original post. I'd take one dedicated gearhead over ten natural sissies. If you dont want to do it, and that is your choice, stick to natural competitions. If not, either quit making excuses as to why you don't win, or man up and do whatever you have to to get that trophy. QUITCHABITHCHIN'.

Lowdown5
08-04-07, 12:00 pm
This debate will rage on forever. Natural or not, you choose. How hard you work or don't work, you choose. Clean diet or fast food shit, you choose.

People are going to make their own choices, I for one am glad that we can make choices. What if we had no choices to make. Would anyone want to live in that society? Not me. I don't give a rats ass if some other cat is on or off, it does not impact me one bit. If I ever enter a show and some other cat beats me, I am not gonna lick my wounds and blame it on chemicals, that motherfucker beat me, period. The option was there for both of us, he opted for and I opted against. End of story. You do not respect the pros for what they choose to do, that is your right. But it is their right to do what they are doing.

We all are free to pick and choose what we do. Pick the option or options that you can live with, but don't pick mine for me. I can do that for myself.

BigAnt
08-04-07, 3:55 pm
Natural
Not Natural...
So<>

Again if you are training hard -- you shouldn't be looking around the gym...playing the "let's guess" game!

And, as I stated before, take all the high power "supplemments" away, the best bodybuilders will still be the best, it is not drugs but the other D word


D I S C I P L I N E!

Nuff said!

Freak57
08-04-07, 4:06 pm
Natural
Not Natural...
So<>

Again if you are training hard -- you shouldn't be looking around the gym...playing the "let's guess" game!

And, as I stated before, take all the high power "supplemments" away, the best bodybuilders will still be the best, it is not drugs but the other D word


D I S C I P L I N E!

Nuff said!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Straight up shit....... Discipline...Either way you must have it...

spartan300
08-04-07, 4:30 pm
I thought it was FORBIDDEN to discuss steroids here.

ironshaolin
08-04-07, 4:40 pm
alright, before I share my 2 cents, I must say that I am not the type of person to sit around at the gym and think about who's juicing and who isn't. I'm there for one thing, and one thing only. To work out as hard as I can. Give it 100%, nothing less. Yet, I don't agree with the use of drugs as a physique enhancer. I understand that take all that away, the best will still be the best. So why can't they just be the best without the drugs? The problem I see is that drug use can be come SO crucial for a spot in the pros going for the big win, that winning becomes all they care about, and lose interest in their health. Bodybuilding to me, is what it says. Building your body. So when you start doing things that in time will eventually lead to a body breakdown, its defeating the purpose in my opinion. Does taking drugs make me lose respect for you? Not completely. A champion is a champion, as long as your payign your dues, busting your ass, and stuffing your face, I can respect that. But a champion dosen't have to be a role model. I just think that how the world reacts to different things, once a few pros start dropping from spending thousands and thousands of dollars a year on GH and all this other stuff, the general public is gonna have it out for bodybuilding. It will become another witch hunt.
What I just don't understand is, if you can get huge and be competitive WITHOUT the use of drugs, then why bother to take it? When is discipline, drive, determination and perserverance not enough? What makes someone with an already incredible work ethic turn down a road that can lead them to the hospital, jail, or even death?

spartan300
08-04-07, 5:14 pm
alright, before I share my 2 cents, I must say that I am not the type of person to sit around at the gym and think about who's juicing and who isn't. I'm there for one thing, and one thing only. To work out as hard as I can. Give it 100%, nothing less. Yet, I don't agree with the use of drugs as a physique enhancer. I understand that take all that away, the best will still be the best. So why can't they just be the best without the drugs? The problem I see is that drug use can be come SO crucial for a spot in the pros going for the big win, that winning becomes all they care about, and lose interest in their health. Bodybuilding to me, is what it says. Building your body. So when you start doing things that in time will eventually lead to a body breakdown, its defeating the purpose in my opinion. Does taking drugs make me lose respect for you? Not completely. A champion is a champion, as long as your payign your dues, busting your ass, and stuffing your face, I can respect that. But a champion dosen't have to be a role model. I just think that how the world reacts to different things, once a few pros start dropping from spending thousands and thousands of dollars a year on GH and all this other stuff, the general public is gonna have it out for bodybuilding. It will become another witch hunt.
What I just don't understand is, if you can get huge and be competitive WITHOUT the use of drugs, then why bother to take it? When is discipline, drive, determination and perserverance not enough? What makes someone with an already incredible work ethic turn down a road that can lead them to the hospital, jail, or even death?

I have competed in over 75 or so shows won or placed in 68 of those 75 or so shows I was present during the "great transition". Don't sit there and preach about discipline and desire. I competed every other month. There was no off season for me. I could travel from state to state and win Teenage, Jr. and Sr. events in one evening! But everything came to a screaching halt when I arrived at the AAU Teenage Mr. America what a rude awakening for me I placed a miserable 4th. At the show I was approached by a very prominent magazine writer. He "explained" why the precious title had eluded me and that although my physique was exceptional it needed something else to reach the next level. (national) He gave me a manilla envelop that contained pages and pages of information on steroids. I knew right then and there it was fucking cheating! If it had not been part of my contest prep up to that point I was not even going to consider it!

Feel The Power
08-04-07, 5:23 pm
all natural here, but had the finger pointed before too so i know what you mean. when i hear it at the gym just turn the headphones louder and put more weight on and crush it!!

BigAnt
08-04-07, 5:27 pm
Short and brief.I did the Mr AUU America in 1995...it was drug tested first time...I came in 4th in the medium tall class, some pepple who in my class tested positive, no places where changed, fast forward, next year same show(I took off to gain more size but went to watch) same thing drug tested, the winner tested postive, sued the AAU and that was the end of the AAU Bodybuilding...

I do what I beleive in, what I DO IS FOR ME...FOR NO ONE ELSE, SURE PEOPLE ACUSE ME AND I HEAR THINGS...BUT THEY DON'T KNOW ME OR SEE HOW I LIVE 24/7 !

"Supplements" do help, but again it is not everything, I see guys who use them and when the stop look worse than before they started...it is the
drive -determination-discipline that counts, again if everything was played on equal grounds, no one will pay big money...remember the Mr O when it was tested?

But the top guys where still the top guys!

Again, they do help but knowing your body-nutrition-training hard and injury free and having the guts to push yourself is the real secret!

---I really don't want to further this conversation any more in detail, we are flirting with the boards rules,and I do respect them 100%! But I wanted to just give my opinion and share my experiences---

Ok?!

Giant Killer
08-04-07, 5:27 pm
Remember fellas, the premise of this thread is-

"Natural...Not Natural...Who Gives a Fuck?"

Keep your eye on the fucking prize and train your balls off. Over and out.

BigAnt
08-04-07, 5:32 pm
Remember fellas, the premise of this thread is-

"Natural...Not Natural...Who Gives a Fuck?"

Keep your eye on the fucking prize and train your balls off. Over and out.

------------------------------------------------------------------------AMEN

EYE ON THE PRIZE & HANDS ON THE HEAVY WEIGHT!

spartan300
08-04-07, 5:34 pm
Short and brief.I did the Mr AUU America in 1995...it was drug tested first time...I came in 4th in the medium tall class, some pepple who in my class tested positive, no places where changed, fast forward, next year same show(I took off to gain more size but went to watch) same thing drug tested, the winner tested postive, sued the AAU and that was the end of the AAU Bodybuilding...

I do what I beleive in, what I DO IS FOR ME...FOR NO ONE ELSE, SURE PEOPLE ACUSE ME AND I HEAR THINGS...BUT THEY DON'T KNOW ME OR SEE HOW I LIVE 24/7 !

"Supplements" do help, but again it is not everything, I see guys who use them and when the stop look worse than before they started...it is the
drive -determination-discipline that counts, again if everything was played on equal grounds, no one will pay big money...remember the Mr O when it was tested?

But the top guys where still the top guys!

Again, they do help but knowing your body-nutrition-training hard and injury free and having the guts to push yourselk is the real secret!

---I really don't want to further this conversation any more in detail, we are flirting with the boards rules,and I do respect them 100%! But I wanted to just give my opinion and experience---

Ok?!

the AAU had that title after '81 It was then known as the npc nationals. Can you enlighten me on this matter mr.ant?

BigAnt
08-04-07, 5:54 pm
the AAU had that title after '81 It was then known as the npc nationals. Can you enlighten me on this matter mr.ant?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------1996 the AAU Ameica winner sued the AAU for "false" testing, said he was clean, it got very ugly..M/D ws all over it, M/D back in the day was a great local mag that covered a lot of AAU contests...No more bodybuilding under the AAU after 1996 because of this...

I trained with Bruce Quinn, Joe Bucci and was good friends with Gregg Long & Rick Stephenson, all very good AUU Bodybuilders, they mixed it up on stage with Tim Belknep, Benny Podda, Steve Michalik....

Bruce took my under his wing at the Olympic Nautilus he owned, my first gym I joined....He saw my drive as a kid for training to excel in BMX racing, said to me, you will - can be a very good bodybuilder because you got heart!

I laughed back than...some 24 years ago...

He is still big & ripped and lives down the street from me a great guy and a very good mentor!

pdiesel
08-04-07, 11:17 pm
alright, before I share my 2 cents, I must say that I am not the type of person to sit around at the gym and think about who's juicing and who isn't. I'm there for one thing, and one thing only. To work out as hard as I can. Give it 100%, nothing less. Yet, I don't agree with the use of drugs as a physique enhancer. I understand that take all that away, the best will still be the best. So why can't they just be the best without the drugs? The problem I see is that drug use can be come SO crucial for a spot in the pros going for the big win, that winning becomes all they care about, and lose interest in their health. Bodybuilding to me, is what it says. Building your body. So when you start doing things that in time will eventually lead to a body breakdown, its defeating the purpose in my opinion. Does taking drugs make me lose respect for you? Not completely. A champion is a champion, as long as your payign your dues, busting your ass, and stuffing your face, I can respect that. But a champion dosen't have to be a role model. I just think that how the world reacts to different things, once a few pros start dropping from spending thousands and thousands of dollars a year on GH and all this other stuff, the general public is gonna have it out for bodybuilding. It will become another witch hunt.
What I just don't understand is, if you can get huge and be competitive WITHOUT the use of drugs, then why bother to take it? When is discipline, drive, determination and perserverance not enough? What makes someone with an already incredible work ethic turn down a road that can lead them to the hospital, jail, or even death?

nice post man--good points about being a role model and how steroids destroy your health

kyderz
08-05-07, 1:03 am
It is incorrect to say steroids destroy your health.

Some people have to take them in order to live.

If taken properly, they're IMO beneficial.

~snowman~
08-05-07, 1:36 am
To be honest to this day myself im trying to figure out why the pro bodybuilders turned into drugs and GH in the first place but i have wrecked my brain so hard that i dont want to think about it anymore. But i have learned not to lose a bit of respect for the pros who take the drugs in moderation. I mean lets face it when they pro thats where they r going to make their money and they dont wanna lose all the money to the guys who did use the enhancers and grabbed the winning edge. However I dont have respect for those lil kids in the gym and im talking about as young as 15 year olds who take the enhancers to hit get buffed to get some ass, i mean if ur game is that bad to rely on roids to get u laid u dont need to go to the gym u need to go take some dating classes lol. To me use of enhancers is never justified but only understandable when a bodybuilder has reached his full genetic potentials by relying on hard work, diet, dedication and mental toughness. And they need an edge cause everyone in their class has taken the enhancers and if he doesn't take it the first place goes to someone else and he is not recognized for shit of course a lot of dont care about that either unless we thinking about becomin a pro.overall Messed up topic guys. it can go on for years.

Spikes079
08-05-07, 1:38 am
Everyone has the right to choose what they use or don't use, some say roids are proven to be harmful others say there is no clear evidence at all. Natural or Not natural the point is don't make excusses for why your body isn't where you want it to be. Just go out and make it that way and strive to push it that little bit farther that we all want...

KENKONG
09-17-07, 9:46 am
great post as usual G. My thought is and always has been -to each his own- I knew plenty of guys who've used them with great results BUT only because they trained they're ass off day in and day out and ate like mules!

Most of the shitheads that worry so much about who's on em and who's not on em are just jealous about a guys size and gains and from what I've heard and read so many friggin times, it's those same guys who think it's some magic pill you just pop in, sit on the couch and get huge.

G Diesel
09-17-07, 9:53 am
I do what I beleive in, what I DO IS FOR ME...FOR NO ONE ELSE, SURE PEOPLE ACUSE ME AND I HEAR THINGS...BUT THEY DON'T KNOW ME OR SEE HOW I LIVE 24/7 !

"Supplements" do help, but again it is not everything, I see guys who use them and when the stop look worse than before they started...it is the
drive -determination-discipline that counts.

Again, they do help but knowing your body-nutrition-training hard and injury free and having the guts to push yourself is the real secret!



Awesome post Ant... Way to succinctly summarize the entire point of this thread. Peace, G

D-Bomb
09-17-07, 10:30 am
You have the freedom to live, use it however you choose, If i inject, or swallow pills which create the benefit of increased protein synthesis and greater male characteristics then that is my decision. Your opinion nonetheless anyone's is valid in that they have freedom of speech, everyone does, so whether you choose to let this shit get you or not is also your choice. i prefer to rise above and not hear the bull.

HAWK
09-17-07, 10:38 am
Bodybuilders are just like every true competitor out there; they look to push the envelope. True competitors are always searching for that edge; that piece of information or slight adjustment that will put them over the top. Baseball players are always tweaking their swings, trying to get it just right, trying to perfect what it is they do to earn a paycheck (or for the guys trying to make it to the big leagues and trying to GET a paycheck). Guys in motocross are now throwing double backflips, where this wasn't even concieved until the 21st Century. The 900 was UNHEARD OF before Tony Hawk did it, and now guys are throwing 1080's. The point is, that whether or not you believe in them, whether or not you approve of them, it does not matter a wink. You do what is right for yourself. After all, you must take care of YOURSELF, because when the shit hits the fan, no one else will. Let the guys that get paid to do it make their choices, because what they do does not affect me. Nothing any guy puts in his body will have any sort of negative (or positive for that matter) effect on me. I don't care what other people do, if you worry too much about that......you'll never go anywhere. Focus on the things you can control, and let what you can't fall by the wayside....

18-Delta
09-17-07, 10:44 am
Just some more food for thought since it was brought up.

Gatorade. The studies are out there, Gatorade is one of the worst drinks one can consume for the health of your teeth. Right up there with soda etc.

Suggested usage, rinse out your mouth with water after drinking a bottle of Gatorade.



2 cents

darkside64
09-17-07, 4:44 pm
Fasting for 40 days with nothing but water like my dad did, that takes balls. If you call eating clean 6 times a day, and intense trainin discipline then we officially live in the laziest society ever. All those factors plus drugs creates champions. I have known people that would take juice, be big and then lose all of their strength. They never went past that plateau. However these guys didnt do what every average bodybuilder does. (eat frequently, little alc, training hard, rest so on). That in my opinion is what an average bodybuilder does. Now average bodybuilders who have done the performance ehnacing supplements. Got and kept a great body. I dont even want to get into what gh does to your body. You can be joe nothing take growth with test and get a body someone that is natural could never achieve. By the way Im not talkin out of my ass. Because I know from personal experience. So yes diet, training, genetics are a factor, however people never admit just how helpful drugs are in achieving a great body. Just look at the bodybuilders (also enhanced) from the 70's to now. Nuff said. By the way I gained 70lbd (150-230) all natty for those thinking Im just a juicehead

gsb239
09-17-07, 4:52 pm
Fasting for 40 days with nothing but water like my dad did, that takes balls. If you call eating clean 6 times a day, and intense trainin discipline then we officially live in the laziest society ever. All those factors plus drugs creates champions. I have known people that would take juice, be big and then lose all of their strength. They never went past that plateau. However these guys didnt do what every average bodybuilder does. (eat frequently, little alc, training hard, rest so on). That in my opinion is what an average bodybuilder does. Now average bodybuilders who have done the performance ehnacing supplements. Got and kept a great body. I dont even want to get into what gh does to your body. You can be joe nothing take growth with test and get a body someone that is natural could never achieve. By the way Im not talkin out of my ass. Because I know from personal experience. So yes diet, training, genetics are a factor, however people never admit just how helpful drugs are in achieving a great body. Just look at the bodybuilders (also enhanced) from the 70's to now. Nuff said. By the way I gained 70lbd (150-230) all natty for those thinking Im just a juicehead

So if I give all these drugs to my 18 year old cousin he will look better than BigAnt? You said give em to "joe nothing" could achieve a physique that no natural bodybuilder could every achieve. Hard work and dedication do mean something in this sport, drugs are not the only part of the equation.

As for our society being lazy, I agree. But eating 6 times a day does take some serious discipline and work. I'd love to sleep away half of saturday and sunday and get up at 2pm to eat 3 shit ass meals the rest of the day, but I go to bed on time and get up according to my schedule. I go to school with my meals planned/packed. If you can't agree that this takes SOME discipline, then I'd wonder if you're eating properly.

darkside64
09-17-07, 5:00 pm
So if I give all these drugs to my 18 year old cousin he will look better than BigAnt? You said give em to "joe nothing" could achieve a physique that no natural bodybuilder could every achieve. Hard work and dedication do mean something in this sport, drugs are not the only part of the equation.

As for our society being lazy, I agree. But eating 6 times a day does take some serious discipline and work. I'd love to sleep away half of saturday and sunday and get up at 2pm to eat 3 shit ass meals the rest of the day, but I go to bed on time and get up according to my schedule. I go to school with my meals planned/packed. If you can't agree that this takes SOME discipline, then I'd wonder if you're eating properly.

WOW. Seriously did you read what I said. If you have to anounce proudly that you eat your 6 meals and train, then your not fit for these drugs. If your cousin spends hours researching these drugs, has 4 years of training under his belt. Eats 6 meals every day. Trains 5 days a week. Then yes he too will transform his body. as I said before all of these things are assumed. Your average couch potato obviously wont change much. Also might I add they dont make you look like big ant. (wtf). I just said that they can and will transform your body completely, when done correctly, and with the precautions that I listed.

Giant Killer
09-17-07, 8:31 pm
Any talk of drugs will be dealt with. Mind your posts.

gsb239
09-17-07, 8:54 pm
WOW. Seriously did you read what I said. If you have to anounce proudly that you eat your 6 meals and train, then your not fit for these drugs. If your cousin spends hours researching these drugs, has 4 years of training under his belt. Eats 6 meals every day. Trains 5 days a week. Then yes he too will transform his body. as I said before all of these things are assumed. Your average couch potato obviously wont change much. Also might I add they dont make you look like big ant. (wtf). I just said that they can and will transform your body completely, when done correctly, and with the precautions that I listed.


1) "I just said that they can and will transform your body completely, when done correctly, and with the precautions that I listed."

- I never really got that in your original post. Wasn't very clear. I'm sorry if I didn't read it properly.

2) The reason I brought up BigAnt was because Ant is a natural pro.

"You can be joe nothing take growth with test and get a body someone that is natural could never achieve."

3) I wasn't "announcing" that I eat 6 meals a day, I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum does. You made it seem like this takes NO discipline, I merely argued that it does.

And what exactly do you mean by "I'm not fit for...?" Do you know me?

H Bomb
09-18-07, 4:15 pm
True shit! I think it's genetics more than anything else, but aside from that it is up to you. I may not have the genetics to weigh 260 but damn it I am bustin my ass to be at least 225-230. People give me the same looks like I am on something due to my ridiculous strength while weighing at the most 216! Dips with 270 strapped to my waist, 85 pound laterals, and curls with dumbells people only dream of pressing! It is controlled rage, drive and determination that has made me the focused warrior I am today. Fuck all you haters that think people are GH freaks just cause they move heavy shit! Did they ever stop to consider that maybe they just work harder than you? That maybe they go to the gym to acheive something great, while they go to pick up chicks? They also have the nerve to call us obsessed? Remeber obsession is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated.

RED DOG
09-18-07, 4:54 pm
i used ot try all the fancy supps when i first started this hsit...but it was a waste of money...some of it not too good for ou and pathetic in a short cut way...now all i do is hard ass fucking work ...like crack my balls and fuk an elephant hard ass work...eat...sleep eat and take lots of protein in....proetin and food and work and sleep...these are what have got me where i am now...not creatine or juice or nothin...much respect G....you started it...and kept to the point

k1usa
09-18-07, 5:46 pm
well...here it is.....sups and gear....I think with some of the over the counter...mail order sups...taken with good training....eating and rest will do almost the same thing as the hard core cookies.....with that being said...the real gear is pricey...and involves lots medical attention to details. At my age...53...the hard core shit can ignite any polyps or cyst and turn them into a growing situation..with potential to become cancerous...so....not for me not now...but there are great sups available from Animal...as well as some other vendors that with the right training and eating and some rest will work almost the same..that entire industry has grown so much..and research has been done..and that now over the counter shit is being booked at by the feds like coke...its become some powerful shit...this I know. At my age...test has all but vanished...growth factors...gone..outta here...hasta la vista...so without certain sups....you can eat like there is no tomorrow but some sups are a vital part of this thing we do. Its so important to do your home work..and get the right combination going..and believe me...that I have done a lot..and at this young age..I need all the help I can get. I'm not going to stand on the ground and judge anyone...if I see a huge fellow..and trains like an animal.....say like Frank McGrath...I don't give a flying fuck what he takes...just let me watch how he trains..talk about diet...and watch the pro go at it....what he takes weather its animal pak..or other stuff....I don't care..but when watch him train....its beyond crazy. I lived in Houston years ago...mid 80"..its a shit hole place...but I trained with and along side Gary Strydom for under a year...along with Oliver Nicholson...and it was insane to see how huge Gary was...and it was not all from eating Wheaties..but when you see him hurl 130 db's on chest flyes.....its no wonder why he got huge....he was an animal in the gym and got kicked out of 2 gyms there for throwing weights around...crazy times..but none of us cared...and not ask..and when I see him at the Arnold or at sporting goods conferences..he is well..healthy and still huge...so...supps...don't dare ask..don't care...I do what I have to do...and this shit aint easy..just wait till your cruzen at 53+...you will understand why we supp...M-stack.... and the like...we have to feed the machine we drive..and that machine does not take unleaded shit...we need the best thats if we bust it in the gym...and this animal does just that...ask BEAR..

loiacanoa
09-18-07, 5:53 pm
Thank you G!

twisted_steel
10-09-07, 7:25 pm
Amen To That G Diesel!!!

sgtmason
10-09-07, 10:08 pm
this is def one of the better threads thats been posted in a while. im sure every brother on here has been witness to this at some point. i got into this game at a measley buck 50. today im around 230 and hopefully still growing. throughout my journey ive been called every name in the book and received rude gestures from those around me. i'll admit it was hard at first but now that im older and wiser ive learned to shrug off the bullshit. brothers ive learned that those who judge us are usually the ones who don't understand. we're not in it for them. like the title says, "Who Gives a Fuck?"

sgtmason

Intense Red Head Man
10-10-07, 2:23 am
unreal post, i love it, i have people at my gym asking me have i done this have i done that, "DUDE WTF ARE YOU TAKING, that gets on my nerves everytime, all i can say is i train my ass off, literally, i try to eat the best i can, with my budget, im lucky im able to even train in a gym. At my gym theres nothing but a few good trainers a long with me, but most of them are older people who know each other and gossip during the whole training session. The next time someone asks me "what cycle you doing right now??" Ill just tell them, "dude, look at you, then me, who trains harder, has a beat red face, sweat from his forehead to his eyes." Just be Yourself, and dont give a fuck what others bitch about.

Toni69
10-10-07, 4:57 am
I think its safe to assume that at one time or another, each one of us debated on what "the other white meat" would do for us and how it would take our physiques to a whole new dimension. Its like sticking your nose where it doesnt belong..we all have that tendency to do so, but then we think of the risks involved when we do. Some are willing to take the plunge. I admit, I thought of it numerous times and not as a means to get big fast either. Im always willing to put in 120% no matter what I do. Im a pretty good size for a small girl and with 5-6 years of beginner style weight training, 3 years of solid bodybuilding behind me, and 2 years of winning shows...I think I did pretty well for myself as a natural FBB"r.

For me, it was loads of trial and error, loads of hard work, total discipline, and willing to learn new things from all kinds of trainers and athletes over the years...and yes..loading up on Universal supps is an added bonus as well.

The times I think about going the other way is when I see how hard I bust my ass when training legs, even with my back as bad as it is, and they just take forever to grow. They are stronger..no doubt...but not where I want them to be when I compare to my upper body. Im the type of person that will work my ass to the bone...exhausting all other options before even debating on the idea of ever "using" anything other than your regular supps.

When I get ready for a show, I know I have to work that much harder than everyone else because I am natural and that's not trying to come off as cocky or anything..its the truth and its how I feel. For me to even stand tall next to a female competitor that may use, I have to seriously bring some game to that stage and that calls for me nearly killing myself in the gym to do it. Now..I know these other competitors train just as hard...but all jokes aside, there are benefits to using and Im not relying on those benefits. Im relying on my heart, my soul, and my 100% grade A choice meat!

I do not look down or frown upon those that do use cause it is their decision, their life, and they are taking huge risks in doing so; A risk I may not ever be brave enough to take. For me, I would have to just stop growing altogether and as it takes me a bit longer to grow in my lagging areas, Im slowly still making good gains...so I will continue fighting and training hard.

On a side note here..they (whoever "they" are), are cracking down bigtime on athletes who use...First we heard of Lance Armstrong, now Marion Jones (Olympics track and field athlete)...few baseball players...

D-Bomb
10-10-07, 5:00 pm
Ya know what, I reckon if the sport bans it, or tests for it, don't use it then simply you are cheating, but in the professional sport of bodybuilding if they don't test and it's not banned, then hell use it if it will give you that edge. if you enter natural competitions and your chemically enhanced, well then I would not ever respect you, because it is banned straight out.

Upstatebuilder07
10-10-07, 5:04 pm
Ya know what, I reckon if the sport bans it, or tests for it, don't use it then simply you are cheating, but in the professional sport of bodybuilding if they don't test and it's not banned, then hell use it if it will give you that edge. if you enter natural competitions and your chemically enhanced, well then I would not ever respect you, because it is banned straight out.

I agree, I think a lot of people has a big misconception that its like a miracle worker. The guys that do "do" still bust there ass in the gym and follow a strict ass diet plan. Also for people in the public eye, how else are you going to stay that conditioned 12 months out of the year.

priority
10-11-07, 11:37 am
Genetics is the number 1 factor in bodybuilding, drugs are the easy option that dont even work for everyone!
Great post man!

snakecorda
10-11-07, 6:48 pm
Until I understood what an Animal was a few years ago I probably would have held a lot of the same beliefs as those mindless fucks. I was ignorant on a lot of fronts. Through study and determination, and a lot of insight from everyone on this board I have been educated. I don't worry about the juice or being natural. I worry about what is going to make me the best I can be, and that means being the healthiest I can be.

I feel no reason put something in my body that won't allow me to enjoy my growth with a clear conscience. I want to know that my genetics, my hardwork, my unyeilding desire to not stray from my goals brought me from being a 280 lb fatass to a size that an Animal can be proud of. I know I have a long way to go, as I try to drop the weight and keep as much lean muscle as I can...but at any point I start to wonder if the results are happening the way I'd like, I just look in the mirror and refocus. I know that almost everyone on here has had those moments....and to see the amount of support keeps me going.

stumblin54
10-11-07, 7:01 pm
On a side note here..they (whoever "they" are), are cracking down bigtime on athletes who use...First we heard of Lance Armstrong, now Marion Jones (Olympics track and field athlete)...few baseball players...

Not so sure that Lance ever used, Landis perhaps.


Ya know what, I reckon if the sport bans it, or tests for it, don't use it then simply you are cheating, but in the professional sport of bodybuilding if they don't test and it's not banned, then hell use it if it will give you that edge. if you enter natural competitions and your chemically enhanced, well then I would not ever respect you, because it is banned straight out.

And acquiring/using steroids for personal use/pleasure is illegal in the United States, so it almost seems to be an unspoken rule that they would be banned in competitions taking place here as well. In other countries however, I completely agree with you D-Bomb, if they're not banned then more power to who decides to use resources available to them and take that route.

Stumblin

BeastFromMiddleEast
10-12-07, 2:21 am
Amazing post.

I am glad to know in due time I will soon be at a level of the unknown.
Thank you for your words of wisdom.

B Con
10-12-07, 8:27 am
This post made my day. It is so fucking true in every way. 100% agree.

Aaron_Cole
10-13-07, 10:06 pm
Would MStak and Test still make you natural? Cause some of my friends are trying to put the lay low on me (even though I don't take it..too young).

Then again...I'm talking about guys who think once you take protein and creatine you're done being natural.

What do you guys think?

prowrestler
10-14-07, 4:11 pm
fuck this post was great. i could relate so well to some of the comparisons and stories in it. it remined me of this past week when my friend told me his older cousin saw my display picture on facebook and was 100% convinced i was on steriods. im in high school, grade 11. just cause i made bodybuilding my life i am accused of taking steriods too. logically think about it, i do not have a job and im 17, where the fuck can i get steroids and how could i afford them? its true what you said, they are admitting they are weaker then you and only point the finger because there weak mind can not understand why you are better then they are. i love this fuckin post!

LegendKillerJosh
10-14-07, 4:19 pm
Let me just add something to this already great post - steroids aren't as magic as everyone thinks. For them to work you still have to bust your ass as hard as possible and still eat massive amounts of food, which if your doing properly will get you bigger anyways, just maybe not as fast.

prowrestler
10-14-07, 11:30 pm
Let me just add something to this already great post - steroids aren't as magic as everyone thinks. For them to work you still have to bust your ass as hard as possible and still eat massive amounts of food, which if your doing properly will get you bigger anyways, just maybe not as fast.

i agree with you man. i hate how ""THEY"" always assume that you pop some steriods and BAMM!!! your huge! ya right. ever watch markus ruhl train or dorian or ronnie or jay fucking cutler! they give it everything they got and eat a hell of alot of clean,dense food. steriods or not, doesn't matter its how hard you push your self, how far your willing to push the envelope.

BitterNdThenSome
10-15-07, 1:42 am
couldnt have said it better myself. its all about insecurity. it was hard for me, being the only bodybuilder at my high school. people saw me taking pills and drinking bright liquids all the time, rumors go so bad i had guys coming up to me trying to score gear. its sad that people cant just say "damn man, youre in great shape" or "hey if you ever got the time could you give me a few pointers on diet/lifting/supp's?" it's always "what the fuck are you on dude?" or "i'd be that big if i juiced". all i can say is keep lifting, keep growing. the weak will fade with a wimper, the strong will survive with a roar.

BitterNdThenSome
10-15-07, 1:44 am
Would MStak and Test still make you natural? Cause some of my friends are trying to put the lay low on me (even though I don't take it..too young).

Then again...I'm talking about guys who think once you take protein and creatine you're done being natural.

What do you guys think?

my guess is they are tiny. its an issue of pride at that point, they think they are so damn perfect that they dont need anything. tell them to fuck themselves, you'll run a six deep cycle if you damn well please, cause they obviously know as much about lifting and "being natural" as richard simmons.

born0withno0soul
10-15-07, 4:47 am
i say its your body. fuck everyone else, do what you want. you have to pay the consequences. but if you want to be on top, you have to do whatever it takes.

Aaron_Cole
10-15-07, 5:54 am
my guess is they are tiny. its an issue of pride at that point, they think they are so damn perfect that they dont need anything. tell them to fuck themselves, you'll run a six deep cycle if you damn well please, cause they obviously know as much about lifting and "being natural" as richard simmons.

Agreed. I'm probably going to take MStak when I turn 18...and run my six deep cycle and eat everything in the cabinet.

Hahah yeah...they aren't big.

Iron_Spirit
10-15-07, 3:33 pm
It isn't about who juices or not... that doesn't matter. Its about who has the balls to train balls to the wall and eat until you feel like puking the same shit you eat everyday at the same time in the same amounts for years and years.

If a man who juices doesn't do those two, he deserves no respect, disregarding whatever body he achieved; but if he does, he deserves the same respect any non-juicer does if he does that too.

The body you achieve, is ONLY the way you look. The road you had to travel to get that body is what defines who you are.

obrien.sk
10-15-07, 4:00 pm
great post G. to the point that was on a lot of peoples minds.

G Diesel
10-15-07, 4:02 pm
The body you achieve, is ONLY the way you look. The road you had to travel to get that body is what defines who you are.

Phenomenal post... Well articulated bro. Peace, G

Stabiliser
10-16-07, 5:47 pm
This one has been bothering me for a long fuckin time, so I gotta put it out there. I'm tired of hearing bellyaching about who is or isn't natural. Or who takes this or doesn't take that and Andreas Munzer's death stack and hating on Skip Lacour and Michael Lockett cuz he said/she said "fill in the blank".

Blah, blah fucking blah... I can't listen to it anymore. It no longer matters. Nobody knows what you really aren't on or what you are on. It is a joke. I've been on OTC supplements for 10+ years and have trained my ass off going from 165 to 260 and counting. Guys were pointing the "juice finger" when I was 19 and didn't even weigh 2 bills. Give me a fuckin break. Ya know what I learned? You have to take people at their word... If they lie and lack honor, that is on them.

The general public sees a big guy or somebody in decent shape and automatically points the finger. I've seen the boards question Brad Pitt, Marky Mark and Matthew McConaughey. Are you fucking kidding me? Look at baseball... Newsflash: A lot of the big home run hitters are clean and a lot of the skinny middle relievers are on everything under the sun. Don't discount genetics and hard work and don't be "that guy".

You know who "that guy" is? He's the weak minded fuck so hung up on his many shortcomings that he is the first one to point at the next man and say "all drugs". Do you realize how much of a dick rider that guy appears to be? All he is saying is, "I'm weak, you are better than me and my feeble mind can't conceive of how you can be so much better than me without drugs." Sad.

Guess what else? There are many pathetic fucks in your gym who never ate a bodybuilding meal in their life and train with less intensity than a geriatric cardiac patient yet they have several cycles under their belt. I see it all the time. I also had a friend who was a freak... "Overtrained" his ass off, doing 4 bodyparts in a session, training everything 3 and 4 times a week. An ex-baller, he was like 6' 235 rock hard with 20" arms and strong as an ox. One day I suggested he start drinking protein and taking creatine. Dead serious he said "Nah man, I'm gonna stay natural and stick with Gatorade." This dude would murder every guy who used drugs in my gym, and he thought creatine and protein may as well have been GH and test.

So there you have it... My little rant on the "natural" issue. I've come to the realization that while this argument is somehow intertwined with my life in this sport it doesn't mean jack shit. All we've got is our word... Take it or leave it. Give me a guy on the shit who pays his dues and lives and breathes this lifestyle over a skinny "natural" know-it-all who cries to the heavens everytime a big guy walks by. Give me a slender kid clean as a whistle who chews dirt and rocks and pummels himself every day in the name of being more over some chemist prick who takes every shortcut he can find and looks like Mr. Universe. Hardcore, gentlemen, is a state of mind and being a true bodybuilder has nothing to do with what you are or aren't using... It is about what kind of man you are. Peace, G


you are right with some thoughts, but i oppose you with other, 1st protein and creatine arent drugs as some people misunderstand you are right with this, but according to concept i dnt respect people taking drugs, these are the jack shits... dedication comes from nature keep that in mind, the most anabolic stuff on earth is food.. otherwise let us all take drugs and become genetic freaks not understanding what is this game was made for, or why we are doing it?..

G Diesel
10-16-07, 5:56 pm
you are right with some thoughts, but i oppose you with other, 1st protein and creatine arent drugs as some people misunderstand you are right with this, but according to concept i dnt respect people taking drugs, these are the jack shits... dedication comes from nature keep that in mind, the most anabolic stuff on earth is food.. otherwise let us all take drugs and become genetic freaks not understanding what is this game was made for, or why we are doing it?..

My point was simply that expending the energy necessary to speculate who is or is not clean is an exercise in futility that can often be perceived as small-minded and envious. Your best bet is to take people at their word and instead focus on maximum self improvement in keeping with your own morals and standards. Peace, G

D-Bomb
10-16-07, 5:59 pm
freedom to express and to speech.

Stabiliser
10-16-07, 5:59 pm
My point was simply that expending the energy necessary to speculate who is or is not clean is an exercise in futility that can often be perceived as small-minded and envious. Your best bet is to take people at their word and instead focus on maximum self improvement in keeping with your own morals and standards. Peace, G

exactly !!!!

JUGGERNAUT
10-16-07, 6:03 pm
The rumor is true.... I'm on A-1 Steak SAUCE. I shit you not

D-Bomb
10-16-07, 6:05 pm
The rumor is true.... I'm on A-1 Steak SAUCE. I shit you not

heard that shit is pretty lethal in terms of anabolic activation of the muscle fibers, depending on how many grams ingested it can range to a full 100% anabolic edge...


;-)

JUGGERNAUT
10-16-07, 6:20 pm
heard that shit is pretty lethal in terms of anabolic activation of the muscle fibers, depending on how many grams ingested it can range to a full 100% anabolic edge...


;-)


Didn't mean to disrupt the seriousness of this thread but could not help myself. That being said, I support this post but don't sway one way or the other as to my thoughts about it. I did lose twice to the same guy when I competed to a guy that slid under the radar when tested at a natural show, so I only have issues, I guess with liars. If I looked down on users I would lose many good friends but my own choice to be natural is just that; my choice. I don't look down at anybody if they are truthful. As for everybody making it a big deal, I see it this way...matter what you do or choose make sure you do it right. The more ballistic your training, goals or decisions are, make sure your education is on the same par to remain healthy...

D-Bomb
10-16-07, 6:26 pm
Didn't mean to disrupt the seriousness of this thread but could not help myself. That being said, I support this post but don't sway one way or the other as to my thoughts about it. I did lose twice to the same guy when I competed to a guy that slid under the radar when tested at a natural show, so I only have issues, I guess with liars. If I looked down on users I would lose many good friends but my own choice to be natural is just that; my choice. I don't look down at anybody if they are truthful. As for everybody making it a big deal, I see it this way...matter what you do or choose make sure you do it right. The more ballistic your training, goals or decisions are, make sure your education is on the same par to remain healthy...

no problem, this has been a tense thread at times, a few guys I really don't agree with but stay calm anyway haha.
see now that's wrong, it was a natural show and if you can be sure he slid under the radar then that's just sickening.
yeah do it right, that's that should be the reason why everyone has come to this site, to do it right. train animal eat animal live animal everyday.

Roach
10-16-07, 7:13 pm
It's ur own choice what u put in ur body,and that may be related 2 integrity or morals,but i respect everyone who's a good human being and gets shit done with 100% heart and dedication no matter what he takes.I mean drugs are bad cuz the law says so,but it's the same kind'a crime when u drink 2 liters of coke a day,but that's legal.I think it's all a matter of perspective.Don't judge as u don't want 2 be judged.

Elite
10-16-07, 7:21 pm
The body you achieve, is ONLY the way you look. The road you had to travel to get that body is what defines who you are.

I second G's opinion of this. Sums it all up. Would be both an excellent sig and epitaph...

Stabiliser
10-17-07, 10:38 am
It's ur own choice what u put in ur body,and that may be related 2 integrity or morals,but i respect everyone who's a good human being and gets shit done with 100% heart and dedication no matter what he takes.I mean drugs are bad cuz the law says so,but it's the same kind'a crime when u drink 2 liters of coke a day,but that's legal.I think it's all a matter of perspective.Don't judge as u don't want 2 be judged.

how about to live in choas man!?!?! you either walk straight or decieve yourself and move in a zig-zag line...

Wasteland
10-17-07, 10:51 am
My point was simply that expending the energy necessary to speculate who is or is not clean is an exercise in futility that can often be perceived as small-minded and envious. Your best bet is to take people at their word and instead focus on maximum self improvement in keeping with your own morals and standards. Peace, G

Why not take other people's word with a grain of salt (until that word has gained some meaning and credibility), but focus on your own self-improvement nonetheless? In the final analysis, what does it matter what other people do? It's all about what you do.

BigAnt
10-19-07, 9:58 pm
Why not take other people's word with a grain of salt (until that word has gained some meaning and credibility), but focus on your own self-improvement nonetheless? In the final analysis, what does it matter what other people do? It's all about what you do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
what does it matter what other people do? It's all about what you do.

AMEN!

Sink
10-19-07, 10:17 pm
I think we point fingers at others to justify our shortcomings, i was an out of shape kid started hitting the gym, year or so later people started accusing me of using steroids i was no where near big a 185lbs teenager no where near being a freak just freakishly dedicated i see tons of guys who may very well be taking everything there is it motivates me i dont care if the guy next to me is a buck ten dripping wet or three hundred ripped i care that im the best i can be i care that im an animal.

Jimmy
10-19-07, 10:19 pm
nobody is natural.

bodybuilding at its heart is an unnatural process. Your body simply doesnt want to be that big. thats why its hard

some people use things engineered by science, to get bigger. creatine powder, AAS, fuck even animal pak. go out into mother nature and try to find a fruit or veggie, that contains the megadose of vitamins pak has. you cant, and you dont wanna waste your whole day eating just do get your RD of vitamins, so you take the easy route, take a bag of pills, engineered by science, entirely not natural.

too many people confuse what is legal with what is natural. just because someone makes a personal choice, to deal with the potential side affects of a product, doesnt mean thats not natural. AAS ellicit far more drastic results, then your average supp, but the come with the shadow of many possible negatives, thats why people are scared of them. in essence someone on steroids, and someone who takes a creatine product with an ethyl ester attached to it to enhance absorbtion are doing the same thing.

taking something that was engineered by science to ellicit muscular gains. just because one person makes a personal choice to take something that will produce gains, head and shoulders above the other guy, doesnt mean hes not natural. it just means he made a choice.

so everyone just stop giving a fuck, none of us are natural, some people just do things that make them bigger than others. now go to the gym!!! its not about what other people do, how other people look. its about you, the work you do, how you look... bigger than yesterday, smaller than tommorow, thats all that matters.

Lowdown5
10-19-07, 10:23 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
what does it matter what other people do? It's all about what you do.

AMEN!



That says it all. Be concerned about YOU, don't be concerned about me or the guy next to you in the gym or anybody else. Who gives a fuck what they do.

Stabiliser
10-20-07, 9:45 am
nobody is natural.

bodybuilding at its heart is an unnatural process. Your body simply doesnt want to be that big. thats why its hard

some people use things engineered by science, to get bigger. creatine powder, AAS, fuck even animal pak. go out into mother nature and try to find a fruit or veggie, that contains the megadose of vitamins pak has. you cant, and you dont wanna waste your whole day eating just do get your RD of vitamins, so you take the easy route, take a bag of pills, engineered by science, entirely not natural.

too many people confuse what is legal with what is natural. just because someone makes a personal choice, to deal with the potential side affects of a product, doesnt mean thats not natural. AAS ellicit far more drastic results, then your average supp, but the come with the shadow of many possible negatives, thats why people are scared of them. in essence someone on steroids, and someone who takes a creatine product with an ethyl ester attached to it to enhance absorbtion are doing the same thing.

taking something that was engineered by science to ellicit muscular gains. just because one person makes a personal choice to take something that will produce gains, head and shoulders above the other guy, doesnt mean hes not natural. it just means he made a choice.

so everyone just stop giving a fuck, none of us are natural, some people just do things that make them bigger than others. now go to the gym!!! its not about what other people do, how other people look. its about you, the work you do, how you look... bigger than yesterday, smaller than tommorow, thats all that matters.



True wORDS!

simpleguy
10-20-07, 11:44 am
nobody is natural.
bodybuilding at its heart is an unnatural process. Your body simply doesnt want to be that big. thats why its hard
some people use things engineered by science, to get bigger. creatine powder, AAS, fuck even animal pak. go out into mother nature and try to find a fruit or veggie, that contains the megadose of vitamins pak has. you cant, and you dont wanna waste your whole day eating just do get your RD of vitamins, so you take the easy route, take a bag of pills, engineered by science, entirely not natural.
too many people confuse what is legal with what is natural. just because someone makes a personal choice, to deal with the potential side affects of a product, doesnt mean thats not natural. AAS ellicit far more drastic results, then your average supp, but the come with the shadow of many possible negatives, thats why people are scared of them. in essence someone on steroids, and someone who takes a creatine product with an ethyl ester attached to it to enhance absorbtion are doing the same thing.
taking something that was engineered by science to ellicit muscular gains. just because one person makes a personal choice to take something that will produce gains, head and shoulders above the other guy, doesnt mean hes not natural. it just means he made a choice.
so everyone just stop giving a fuck, none of us are natural, some people just do things that make them bigger than others. now go to the gym!!! its not about what other people do, how other people look. its about you, the work you do, how you look... bigger than yesterday, smaller than tommorow, thats all that matters.

well pointed jimmy, actually lots of the stuff in the supermarket is not ''natural'', for example everything that has preservatives in it and so on

tuffnuts
10-24-07, 4:11 pm
So many good points. It all boils down to the fact that bodybuilding is a personal journey that each of us has chosen for whatever reason and who is anyone to point the finger and label someone as "juicers" or "natural."-these are both personal choices. Do I agree with steroids-NO Way! In fact i think they are what is wrong with the sport. I think the credit lies with those who are dedicated to their training, lock in their diet, and show consistency by living a healthy lifestyle. That said, I understand the present state of bodybuilding--Steroids are big business--and I don't see them going away anytime soon and cannot judge those who use them. All I can do is focus on what I gotta do to improve day by day and leave the finger pointing to those unfocused people who are more concerned about others rather than thier own training. A little cliche but all i can say is "shut up and train"

Tucsondog
10-24-07, 4:41 pm
nobody is natural.

bodybuilding at its heart is an unnatural process. Your body simply doesnt want to be that big. thats why its hard

some people use things engineered by science, to get bigger. creatine powder, AAS, fuck even animal pak. go out into mother nature and try to find a fruit or veggie, that contains the megadose of vitamins pak has. you cant, and you dont wanna waste your whole day eating just do get your RD of vitamins, so you take the easy route, take a bag of pills, engineered by science, entirely not natural.

too many people confuse what is legal with what is natural. just because someone makes a personal choice, to deal with the potential side affects of a product, doesnt mean thats not natural. AAS ellicit far more drastic results, then your average supp, but the come with the shadow of many possible negatives, thats why people are scared of them. in essence someone on steroids, and someone who takes a creatine product with an ethyl ester attached to it to enhance absorbtion are doing the same thing.

taking something that was engineered by science to ellicit muscular gains. just because one person makes a personal choice to take something that will produce gains, head and shoulders above the other guy, doesnt mean hes not natural. it just means he made a choice.

so everyone just stop giving a fuck, none of us are natural, some people just do things that make them bigger than others. now go to the gym!!! its not about what other people do, how other people look. its about you, the work you do, how you look... bigger than yesterday, smaller than tommorow, thats all that matters.

This continues to be a great thread to keep up on. Jimmy, you nailed a great point as well brother.

Ok, so lets say you put in 110% at the gym, you eat like an "Animal" should, you get plenty of rest, and your hormones are 100% where they should be. You should grow if you're doing every thing right.

Ok, now lets say that Dr Brainoid developes a "supplement" lets call it, it's legal, FDA approved and all, has 0% chance to harm you if you take it correctly, and has the same but lasting effects of juice, oh...and it's affordable. Do you take it? Is this a stupid question?

My vote is yes, I would take it. I'm willing to bet 100% of the readers of this thread take whey protein on a regular basis. Maybe creatine also. Possibly BCAA's if the wallet allows. Possibly Animal paks. Etc, etc, etc. Why? Because you've probably seen the proven and positive effects those additional chemicals have on your body. So, given the training/hormone/rest/diet are 100% would you take this new hypothetical 100% effective, long lasting, harmless, chemical?

born0withno0soul
10-24-07, 4:45 pm
this thread needs to be closed

G Diesel
10-24-07, 4:47 pm
So, given the training/hormone/rest/diet are 100% would you take this new hypothetical 100% effective, long lasting, harmless, chemical?

Great hypothetical... My answer is yes, I more than likely would use it.

A more extreme hypothetical... My boy was talking about a drug that led to complete myostatin inhibition where people would "safely" walk around jacked without training and diet. In his scenario, he said I'd be one of the last people on Earth still training. It is funny, but it makes you wonder...

Peace, G

Tucsondog
10-24-07, 5:01 pm
Great hypothetical... My answer is yes, I more than likely would use it.

A more extreme hypothetical... My boy was talking about a drug that led to complete myostatin inhibition where people would "safely" walk around jacked without training and diet. In his scenario, he said I'd be one of the last people on Earth still training. It is funny, but it makes you wonder...

Peace, G

There was a GREAT article in either Flex or M&F about 2 summers ago that talked about that exactly. They highlighted some kind of blue-bulls that are muscularly huge, and natually had low myostatin or something like that. They even had morphed pics of Ronnie Colemen, what he would look like at 400lbs, and a few other BBer's like Gunter and Cutler. Oh and a rat they played with the myostatin and had huge thighs compared to his cousins. Only a matter of time, genetic R&D, playing with DNA, yada-yada-yada. What God didn't make how WE want it to look, we'll be sure to try to "fix" ourselves...

G Diesel
10-24-07, 5:10 pm
There was a GREAT article in either Flex or M&F about 2 summers ago that talked about that exactly. They highlighted some kind of blue-bulls that are muscularly huge, and natually had low myostatin or something like that. They even had morphed pics of Ronnie Colemen, what he would look like at 400lbs, and a few other BBer's like Gunter and Cutler. Oh and a rat they played with the myostatin and had huge thighs compared to his cousins. Only a matter of time, genetic R&D, playing with DNA, yada-yada-yada. What God didn't make how WE want it to look, we'll be sure to try to "fix" ourselves...

But if it were possible, who would still train? Peace, G

Toni69
10-24-07, 5:12 pm
But if it were possible, who would still train? Peace, G

I will train with you G..you would have to if Im all you got left! LOL

Tucsondog
10-24-07, 5:20 pm
You really think that would stop us? I think it's in our hearts to still train. But ya gotta read this article: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070530/strong_toddler_070530/20070530

This kid is the next Mr Olympia, or a Superhero, or something. Sounds like there could be hundreds of "these" people running around. Reminds me of the X-Men movie!

Naw, I think even with that superhero body, we'll still want to get yet another edge on just how far we can go with it.

Stamp Out Myostatin! Maybe that'll be my new mantra.

Jimmy
10-24-07, 5:34 pm
This continues to be a great thread to keep up on. Jimmy, you nailed a great point as well brother.

Ok, so lets say you put in 110% at the gym, you eat like an "Animal" should, you get plenty of rest, and your hormones are 100% where they should be. You should grow if you're doing every thing right.

Ok, now lets say that Dr Brainoid developes a "supplement" lets call it, it's legal, FDA approved and all, has 0% chance to harm you if you take it correctly, and has the same but lasting effects of juice, oh...and it's affordable. Do you take it? Is this a stupid question?

My vote is yes, I would take it. I'm willing to bet 100% of the readers of this thread take whey protein on a regular basis. Maybe creatine also. Possibly BCAA's if the wallet allows. Possibly Animal paks. Etc, etc, etc. Why? Because you've probably seen the proven and positive effects those additional chemicals have on your body. So, given the training/hormone/rest/diet are 100% would you take this new hypothetical 100% effective, long lasting, harmless, chemical?


yea, i probably would take it, with the knowledge that it is 100% safe.

In regards to G's hypothetical about myostatin inhibition, if that was experimented with and proved to be entirely safe, im not sure if i would take it or not, but i would sure as hell still be in the gym training regardless. the reason bodybuilding is fun for me, is the whole experience, the gym, the exercises, the eating, THE PUMP, the struggle and the muscle gains that accompany all that. take away the the gym, and all that stuff, but leave me huge, i dont think i would be happy.


however all these thoughts are in the hypothetical realm, science may very well one day get to the point where they can make these chemical advancements. but as it stands now, we cant guarantee 100% safety, 100% results. It is my opinion that the harder you push against nature, the harder it is going to push back, nature will always find a way to make things right, and maintain homeostasis. thats why for the average lifter, gym rat, bodybuilding enthusiast, who does not make their living off of the sport, and does it purely for enjoyment, i would caution against using the more extreme means of physique enchancement. they are fleeting, and can potentially send you out the door with less than you came in with. its a personal choice, do your research, and make an educated desicion.

wolfsburg2
10-27-07, 2:40 pm
even in this thread the hateful comments have been made.

Who cares who is doign what. focus on yourself. that's the point.

assuming someone is on the sauce, and then hating on them is a weak stance.

thinking suice is magic is totally incorrect. you guys should know how much dedicstion it takes to grow, even on the sauce. the needle doesn't move the iron, drink the water, prepare or digest the calories/protein etc/.

Giant Killer
10-27-07, 3:15 pm
the reason bodybuilding is fun for me, is the whole experience, the gym, the exercises, the eating, THE PUMP, the struggle and the muscle gains that accompany all that. take away the the gym, and all that stuff, but leave me huge, i dont think i would be happy.


I agree 110% Jimmy.

born0withno0soul
10-27-07, 3:37 pm
I agree 110% Jimmy.

yea but you guys dont understand the fact that those guys who are monsters work just as hard if not harder than any of us. they just also give them selves a little boost. if you think you can stick a needle in your ass and sit around watching tv your not very intelligent

Giant Killer
10-27-07, 4:24 pm
yea but you guys dont understand the fact that those guys who are monsters work just as hard if not harder than any of us. they just also give them selves a little boost. if you think you can stick a needle in your ass and sit around watching tv your not very intelligent

Ya' got me all wrong. The topic of this thread, the premise, is "Who gives a fuck?" Now, everybody that is in here arguing, "gives a fuck." I don't. And I certainly wouldn't be the one to demean anothers sacrifices, whether or not they are an enhanced athlete. I do not differentiate. Sounds like you do, and that's fine too.

What I did agree with was "the process of bodybuilding makes it even more worthwhile." All this bickering in here, all this pissin' in the wind, I cannot relate to, I could care less. This concept that Jimmy is talking about, I can relate to.

Jimmy
10-27-07, 6:15 pm
yea but you guys dont understand the fact that those guys who are monsters work just as hard if not harder than any of us. they just also give them selves a little boost. if you think you can stick a needle in your ass and sit around watching tv your not very intelligent

my response in which i stated take away the gym and leave me huge was in regards to a hypothetical question posed by G about myostatin inhibition. about how if one day, science created a product that would completely inhibit myostatin rendering it possible for every human in the world to take it, and be huge regardless of training or diet. we were not talking about what you accuse us of not understanding. read back a page or two, and you will understand my stance on "THAT" issue.

D-Bomb
10-27-07, 6:18 pm
remember keep it friendly fella's :-)

Jimmy
10-27-07, 6:22 pm
remember keep it friendly fella's :-)

lol, dont worry, we will play nice. i was just pointing out that the situation was misunderstood.

Giant Killer
10-27-07, 6:33 pm
It's all good D! Hope nothing came across in a negative way there guys.

D-Bomb
10-28-07, 6:53 am
yeah cool guys, I have no issues with anyone yet, Just that i'm used to some random flinging a comment outta no where...and then boom its a catastrophe lol.

born0withno0soul
10-28-07, 7:03 am
my response in which i stated take away the gym and leave me huge was in regards to a hypothetical question posed by G about myostatin inhibition. about how if one day, science created a product that would completely inhibit myostatin rendering it possible for every human in the world to take it, and be huge regardless of training or diet. we were not talking about what you accuse us of not understanding. read back a page or two, and you will understand my stance on "THAT" issue.

i agree with you bud. but we all have our opinions and if another opinion of mine is welcome i think the htread should be shut down because this thread is good for nothing but agruments and bickering.

D-Bomb
10-28-07, 7:19 am
So there you have it... My little rant on the "natural" issue. I've come to the realization that while this argument is somehow intertwined with my life in this sport it doesn't mean jack shit. All we've got is our word... Take it or leave it. Give me a guy on the shit who pays his dues and lives and breathes this lifestyle over a skinny "natural" know-it-all who cries to the heavens everytime a big guy walks by. Give me a slender kid clean as a whistle who chews dirt and rocks and pummels himself every day in the name of being more over some chemist prick who takes every shortcut he can find and looks like Mr. Universe. Hardcore, gentlemen, is a state of mind and being a true bodybuilder has nothing to do with what you are or aren't using... It is about what kind of man you are. Peace, G

This sums it up guys, we can argue until the daylight breaks and a new day of chewing oatmeal and cooking eggs arrives, but we won't get any further than we have, except to pull out our fists at our own brethren.

MC-Hitman
02-25-08, 10:54 pm
Easy way to think of this natural vs. juicin'

You take a shortcut, you get up quick but in the long --> you'll be in worse shape than starting

Caffiene - You get a jolt, and feel like your on fire, then you crash (uncontrolled shutdown)
Piece of fruit - not much of a initial response, but you get a gradual rush going and gradual reset


Natural today does not exist anymore!
We ALL need to take in something extra nowadays
Food we eat today, is genetically mutated in some means to grow fast, but will not carry the original nutritional value (calories and its distribution, minerals, vitamins...)
We take supplements (pak and the gang) to make up for what we are missing from our food


It is just that one class of supplements people point the finger for
But it is great being questioned as a juicer, when not one


Drugs may indeed be an edge, but it dulls down
YOU are the edge, and you can control the sharpening or dulling
Your will to taunt iron, to sweat your demons out, to make the earth shake at that moment
To make the being on the other side of the mirror grin with pleasure at what he sees


I could give less than 2 shits on another person opnion over my status as much as I do over theirs
If I did, it was more concern regarding health rather than the competition they could be disqualified for or some girls to flex for

Good post to bring up G
I never brought it up assuming it was well spoken of

BamBam
02-25-08, 11:52 pm
Who cares...really?!?!

Take care of your body and worry about your life and not the other guys...cuz if you keep looking at him or worrying about them, then you won't do SHIT...with or without supps, roids, whatever...So get ya heads on right and keep slinging them weights ANIMALS....

Respect,
BamBam92

jeff00z28
02-25-08, 11:53 pm
Who cares...really?!?!

/thread

Elite
02-25-08, 11:56 pm
Drugs may indeed be an edge, but it dulls down
YOU are the edge, and you can control the sharpening or dulling


Great point!

AminoAmigo
02-26-08, 6:16 am
I don't give a **** who is juicing and who is not ... if you're juicing, you have to deal with the consequences and that's the way you earn the advantages of gear.



reminds me of this big dude that comes into my gym every once in a while that doesn't even train that often and throws around 120 db's on military like nothing and has no clue about diet. I heard someone ask him if he was on steroids and he barely knew what they were. some are just blessed

Yeah ... and that's why i quit looking at others. The only person you should compare yourself with is you.

If i work as hard as i can, do everything to improve ... why should i blame others when they look better by doing less ? Good for them.

I will be bale to say that i have done my best to become as big as it gets ... that's the accomplishment i need.

Preston
02-26-08, 10:15 am
I don't give a **** who is juicing and who is not ... if you're juicing, you have to deal with the consequences and that's the way you earn the advantages of gear.




Yeah ... and that's why i quit looking at others. The only person you should compare yourself with is you.

If i work as hard as i can, do everything to improve ... why should i blame others when they look better by doing less ? Good for them.

I will be bale to say that i have done my best to become as big as it gets ... that's the accomplishment i need.

The consequences? Steroids are used every day by people who have arthritis every day. Sure it's a different steroid, but it all comes down to how much you abuse it. Doctors wouldn't prescribe it to their patients if it was going to kill them, would they? At a low dose the body can take and use the steroid like it's suppose to, sure your body isn't in homeostasis, but that's why they take them for 3 weeks then cycle 1 week off. It's the people that get on gear, and they're only suppose to take 3 pills a day and then think " oh screw this, I want more gains " and take 10.

Even if you are taking some " special pill, " that doesn't give you a " get out of busting your ass " card for your entire cycle. I know that people that are on a cycle train harder, and eat better than many naturals on here. Just because someone is doing something special, doesn't mean they cut back on training or their diet.

That is where the line is drawn, through the abuse of the drug.

krazyassmexican
02-26-08, 10:20 am
juice doesnt kill, ignorance does.....

if you really look at the records most of the athletes that died from "juice" died for abusing other substances that were not juice anyways i am not gettin into details all i am saying is

juice doesnt kill, ignorance does

Preston
02-26-08, 10:21 am
juice doesnt kill, ignorance does.....

if you really look at the records most of the athletes that died from "juice" died for abusing other substances that were not juice anyways i am not gettin into details all i am saying is

juice doesnt kill, ignorance does

Appreciate the truth krazy...thanks.

G Diesel
02-26-08, 10:39 am
The consequences? Steroids are used every day by people who have arthritis every day. Sure it's a different steroid, but it all comes down to how much you abuse it. Doctors wouldn't prescribe it to their patients if it was going to kill them, would they? At a low dose the body can take and use the steroid like it's suppose to, sure your body isn't in homeostasis, but that's why they take them for 3 weeks then cycle 1 week off. It's the people that get on gear, and they're only suppose to take 3 pills a day and then think " oh screw this, I want more gains " and take 10.

Even if you are taking some " special pill, " that doesn't give you a " get out of busting your ass " card for your entire cycle. I know that people that are on a cycle train harder, and eat better than many naturals on here. Just because someone is doing something special, doesn't mean they cut back on training or their diet.

That is where the line is drawn, through the abuse of the drug.

Was that a comparison between prescription corticosteroids used to treat advanced arthritis in the elderly and black market androgenic/anabolic steroids obtained and administered through illegal means by bodybuilders? Peace, G

D-Bomb
02-26-08, 11:24 am
There should be a petition for the freedom to use AAS outside of Sporting circumstances or any other way it is against the rules/regulations, then control it even further with age etc. Better to know your needle is clean and that the TEST your getting is what it is. im sure the bodybuilding world would 80% support it.
But i do know that society would fight it, politicians would use it to springboard them into the spotlight and all kinds of shit to beat down on our individualistic freedom. Some places the system has taken too much from us.

BrotherInArms
02-26-08, 2:20 pm
Wow, um.. word.

Props to G Diesel on an article well-written. Very nice.

Mizzarler
02-27-08, 1:51 am
I recently watched a video on youtube of chris cormier incline benching 405 for 12 reps. All of the comments were this guy does steroids, hes on steroids. no shit but the guy busts his ass every week (finished 6th in effin mr olympia...) and people say he just takes steroids and thats why hes huge.. shit like that pisses me off

krazyassmexican
02-27-08, 10:28 am
I recently watched a video on youtube of chris cormier incline benching 405 for 12 reps. All of the comments were this guy does steroids, hes on steroids. no shit but the guy busts his ass every week (finished 6th in effin mr olympia...) and people say he just takes steroids and thats why hes huge.. shit like that pisses me off

that is the reason i avoid watchin bodybuilding/powerlifting videos on youtube

Cstlfx
02-27-08, 10:30 am
that is the reason i avoid watchin bodybuilding/powerlifting videos on youtube

Thats also why Machine wont release a video until it gets released by Universal!

DetroitMuscle
04-07-08, 6:03 pm
Everyone has there own line to walk. Everyone has there own choice to make. There is a safe way and an unsafe way for every walk of life including the life of steroids.

Bottom line what it comes down to is worrying about yourself and no one else. If your looking at the guy next to you then your not using patience. The guy next to you is not a reason to juice and if thats the reason you make that decision in your head then your a retard.

If your going to do it then you spend the time understanding the science behind it, understand the risks and take a good look inside. Dont have the mentality "o that wont happen to me" like so many careless people out there. Realize what your doing and ask yourself how its going to affect your goals.

Dont think one cycle is enough...you wanna look like the top pros? Be ready for cycle after cycle after cycle...and be ready to give some things up in life to achieve that level thru steroid usage.

No one is going to tell you what to do...not me. If you want to do it then do it but only YOU can make that choice. I have faced the choice, I have over 2 years of research under my belt, I understand the science behind it, what it all does- everything. Its something that every bodybuilder faces at one time or another "a choice". Dont look at the pros look in the mirror. Put the "comic books" down for a minute (MD, Flex, ect...) and look at you cuz in the end you are all youve got.

So choose well and choose wise...

RED DOG
07-10-08, 8:57 am
you know after reading all the articles you guys post up...and then reading this one today...it brought to my attention something else that pisses me off just as highly...and thats the people (the same juice throwing insecure pricks who acuse every one of jackin till the cows come home.) who assume that everyone who lifts weights and is fit or healthy or larger or more ripped then they are..is a beef headed moron barely caspable of wiping his own ass succesfully....dont you just hate that...the stereotype that we get...i mean i personally hate the look on there face when theyve been all cocky and shit talking to me like im a 4 year old with a hearing aid, that is until they start getting personal and ask me what i do ( as if expecting that cus i care about my body im going to be someone with no personal life, no friends or family or loved ones, someone who doesnt enjoy r&r as much as the next person and someone who doesnt take the same moto of busting my ass in the gym and in my job), i just love the look on there face when they say something like " so...what are you doing? ...what do i do as a job? im an engineer how about you" i rebel in the look in ther face when they hear these words, you can hear them thinking...no wait hey hes too stupid to do this...( they look as if theyve just watched a turd into a washing machine).

i dont know wether anyof you guys have found this, ( and i dont think anything like im better or bragging to people or anything, im very fortunate with my life) but i get quite annoyed when i am stereotyped and limited in the eyes of people just cus im fitter than they are.

sorry to rant...had to get that one out..

good post G

RD

SA-Hulk
07-10-08, 10:00 am
Big Up G, great post brother.
Reality of this is, juice or no juice, to get into the shape of a Mr. O you gotta train balls to the wall...and eat right.
I respect any man who can train with that intensity and eat 100% right.

WeeMan
07-10-08, 3:44 pm
i cant remember how many guys at my gym are on gear, but i couldnt count the number on my fingers.
what i will say is that the guy who deadlifts 705 for reps is natural, the guy that dips with 220 round his waist is natural, the mrs britain 2006 is natural, and the two guys competeing in mr britain in october are natural.

hard work and genetics pay off. but just because your on steroids though doesnt mean your a pussy or that you dont work hard.

WeeMan
07-10-08, 3:48 pm
you know after reading all the articles you guys post up...and then reading this one today...it brought to my attention something else that pisses me off just as highly...and thats the people (the same juice throwing insecure pricks who acuse every one of jackin till the cows come home.) who assume that everyone who lifts weights and is fit or healthy or larger or more ripped then they are..is a beef headed moron barely caspable of wiping his own ass succesfully....dont you just hate that...the stereotype that we get...i mean i personally hate the look on there face when theyve been all cocky and shit talking to me like im a 4 year old with a hearing aid, that is until they start getting personal and ask me what i do ( as if expecting that cus i care about my body im going to be someone with no personal life, no friends or family or loved ones, someone who doesnt enjoy r&r as much as the next person and someone who doesnt take the same moto of busting my ass in the gym and in my job), i just love the look on there face when they say something like " so...what are you doing? ...what do i do as a job? im an engineer how about you" i rebel in the look in ther face when they hear these words, you can hear them thinking...no wait hey hes too stupid to do this...( they look as if theyve just watched a turd into a washing machine).

i dont know wether anyof you guys have found this, ( and i dont think anything like im better or bragging to people or anything, im very fortunate with my life) but i get quite annoyed when i am stereotyped and limited in the eyes of people just cus im fitter than they are.

sorry to rant...had to get that one out..

good post G

RD

good point i know exactly what you mean!!

killyouintheface
07-10-08, 10:09 pm
i dont know wether anyof you guys have found this, ( and i dont think anything like im better or bragging to people or anything, im very fortunate with my life) but i get quite annoyed when i am stereotyped and limited in the eyes of people just cus im fitter than they are.

sorry to rant...had to get that one out..

good post G

RD

I've gotten that a lot because of all my tattoos and piercings. I have 5/8" plugs in my ears, and am working on half-sleeves (I have a lot of other stuff under my clothes), and people that don't know me usually assume I'm some burned out tweaker or something, instead of a graphic designer with a college degree that wiorks at a hospital management company. lol

You eventually develop a thicker skin and it doesn't matter what people say, or how they look at you, or that they even think at all.

Cellerator65
07-10-08, 11:15 pm
(not pointing fingers)

But once you guys stop worrying about what others think, then you are free to do anything you please. Vanity is a silly thing, if you lift weights so people can talk about how good you look, then maybe you're in the wrong forum.

not to get off topic, but if you want to use any supplement, hell use it. If you're worried about people pointing fingers at you, then don't use it. Fuck, i remember in high school creatine was taboo, if you used that, people pointed fingers at you.

This is your life, no one elses. Stop worrying about what others think, and do you. In the end, the only person you owe anything to is yourself. YOU have to wake up and look at yourself in the mirror.

Fuck what anyone else thinks.

John-TNS
07-11-08, 12:35 am
Like you said man, its not what you are or aren't on its how hardcore and dedicated you are to this sport. I give respect to anyone who puts in the work regardless what he takes behind close doors.

Vendetta
07-11-08, 11:52 am
You know I couldnt agree with you guys more

The problem is that not everyone agree's with us. A few issues back in muscular development, john romano wrote an article about how there is no such thing as natural bodybuilding and all this crap.How it was a joke.....A JOKE!!!! hahahaha You know its funny becuase they talk about how they want bodybuilding to mainstream and stuff, but they try to seperate the two types. Its all messed up. I love bodybuilding more than anything, and I compete in natural shows, but its always going to be a black sheep sport for the few that have what it takes.

SA-Hulk
07-11-08, 1:22 pm
YOU have to wake up and look at yourself in the mirror.
Fuck what anyone else thinks.

Nicely put bro, Besides, those who point fingers are not normally bodybuilders, and they look at everyone with freaky mass and stare - Juice or no Juice, I love that stare they give!

prowrestler
07-12-08, 3:26 am
ive been on both sides of the natural and un natural game. but i getthe same responces from people i meet regardless whether or not im natural or using illegal products.

they will always think a bigger guy is on roids because they cant comprehend he is better then them without so called cheating methods.

steriods or not, if you bust ass it should not be the do all, end all question.

sanga
10-15-08, 11:00 am
People put other people down because of their own inadequentcies (sp), inability to train hard, to diet correctly, to push themselves to the limit when everyone else around them is falling, people like to use the drugs finger to point due to their own failings.

I couldn`t give a toss who takes what and when or for how long and for what reason, I know that any top competitor is a survivor, a warrior, a fighter, has a burning desire, a need, a will to succeed, if he / she didn`t then they wouldn`t be where they are, drugs are just a small piece of the jigsaw, a very small piece at that, its all about dedication, consistancy, knowledge, training and dieting your arse off time and time again and again and again and again.

So all those finger pointers, either put up or shut up!

ghost
10-15-08, 11:08 am
Vanity called, they want their mirror back.



fuck what anyone else thinks. Are you in this lifestyle to make OTHERS happy? or you..... you need to decide what you really want out of this life, and who you are here to please... because if it is others, then go get my shake bitch. otherwise, go lift.

DetroitMuscle
10-15-08, 11:58 am
Exactly, your in this game for one person no matter what spotlight your in (pro/non pro) and thats you. You have to decide whats best for you and what its going to take to meet your goals.

If you make an EDUCATED decision to sauce, then sauce because YOU want to. Do not listen to anyone else whether its peer pressure or whether its someone telling you not do because it will kill you. Both of the above can be opinionated situations. You dont know about anything until you read volumes of information and self educate yourself.

What level do you want to be on? Amateur? Natty Pro? IFBB Pro? That has a lot to do with your decisions too. If your going to be Amateur or Natty pro then train hard eat right and reap your benefits, IFBB...well be prepared to eat right and train hard but also be prepared to step into the darkside as well....

Bottom line it doesnt matter who does what because everyone should be worrying about themselves.

smith06
10-15-08, 1:16 pm
Anytime I talk to someone and they start pointing the steroid finger at someone I put them in their place. I simply tell them to do some research on the subject and not from a high school text book or government based test and their opinion will probably change. I have several reasons why I won't do steroids, none of which are because they are dangerous or it is cheating...both of which are bullshit.

Great post G!

DetroitMuscle
10-15-08, 1:28 pm
Anytime I talk to someone and they start pointing the steroid finger at someone I put them in their place. I simply tell them to do some research on the subject and not from a high school text book or government based test and their opinion will probably change. I have several reasons why I won't do steroids, none of which are because they are dangerous or it is cheating...both of which are bullshit.

Great post G!

Good point.

Watch "BIGGER FASTER STRONGER" the documentary. It puts it all in perspective.

SQUAT or DIE!
10-15-08, 1:42 pm
Good point.

Watch "BIGGER FASTER STRONGER" the documentary. It puts it all in perspective.

amazing movie...

HOCKEY TEMPER
10-15-08, 2:05 pm
"Hardcore, gentlemen, is a state of mind and being a true bodybuilder has nothing to do with what you are or aren't using... It is about what kind of man you are."

G's the shit...another good article.

smith06
10-15-08, 2:39 pm
Good point.

Watch "BIGGER FASTER STRONGER" the documentary. It puts it all in perspective.

Done seen it. Awesome unbiased documentary.

Achilles
10-15-08, 4:57 pm
The only issue I would have here, not making accusations .. Is when the professional bodybuilders or any power athletes for that matter endorse OTC products claiming phenomenal size/strength gains on their products. When the truth is, these same people are using Steroids or HGH or anything of the sort. It's like theyre selling people a dream that they will most likely fall short of with out the proper "help" or lack of great genetics

Beast7897
10-15-08, 8:15 pm
This one has been bothering me for a long fuckin time, so I gotta put it out there. I'm tired of hearing bellyaching about who is or isn't natural. Or who takes this or doesn't take that and Andreas Munzer's death stack and hating on Skip Lacour and Michael Lockett cuz he said/she said "fill in the blank".

Blah, blah fucking blah... I can't listen to it anymore. It no longer matters. Nobody knows what you really aren't on or what you are on. It is a joke. I've been on OTC supplements for 10+ years and have trained my ass off going from 165 to 260 and counting. Guys were pointing the "juice finger" when I was 19 and didn't even weigh 2 bills. Give me a fuckin break. Ya know what I learned? You have to take people at their word... If they lie and lack honor, that is on them.

The general public sees a big guy or somebody in decent shape and automatically points the finger. I've seen the boards question Brad Pitt, Marky Mark and Matthew McConaughey. Are you fucking kidding me? Look at baseball... Newsflash: A lot of the big home run hitters are clean and a lot of the skinny middle relievers are on everything under the sun. Don't discount genetics and hard work and don't be "that guy".

You know who "that guy" is? He's the weak minded fuck so hung up on his many shortcomings that he is the first one to point at the next man and say "all drugs". Do you realize how much of a dick rider that guy appears to be? All he is saying is, "I'm weak, you are better than me and my feeble mind can't conceive of how you can be so much better than me without drugs." Sad.

Guess what else? There are many pathetic fucks in your gym who never ate a bodybuilding meal in their life and train with less intensity than a geriatric cardiac patient yet they have several cycles under their belt. I see it all the time. I also had a friend who was a freak... "Overtrained" his ass off, doing 4 bodyparts in a session, training everything 3 and 4 times a week. An ex-baller, he was like 6' 235 rock hard with 20" arms and strong as an ox. One day I suggested he start drinking protein and taking creatine. Dead serious he said "Nah man, I'm gonna stay natural and stick with Gatorade." This dude would murder every guy who used drugs in my gym, and he thought creatine and protein may as well have been GH and test.

So there you have it... My little rant on the "natural" issue. I've come to the realization that while this argument is somehow intertwined with my life in this sport it doesn't mean jack shit. All we've got is our word... Take it or leave it. Give me a guy on the shit who pays his dues and lives and breathes this lifestyle over a skinny "natural" know-it-all who cries to the heavens everytime a big guy walks by. Give me a slender kid clean as a whistle who chews dirt and rocks and pummels himself every day in the name of being more over some chemist prick who takes every shortcut he can find and looks like Mr. Universe. Hardcore, gentlemen, is a state of mind and being a true bodybuilder has nothing to do with what you are or aren't using... It is about what kind of man you are. Peace, G

That was awsome dude total truth.

G Diesel
10-15-08, 9:54 pm
The only issue I would have here, not making accusations .. Is when the professional bodybuilders or any power athletes for that matter endorse OTC products claiming phenomenal size/strength gains on their products. When the truth is, these same people are using Steroids or HGH or anything of the sort. It's like theyre selling people a dream that they will most likely fall short of with out the proper "help" or lack of great genetics

You ain't wrong brother... The way I look at it, though, is that we're better off to know what we know, never think twice about it and focus on bettering ourselves. That is the most productive and worthwhile use of our energy. Peace, G

Mr. Aestheticz
10-16-08, 11:47 am
Like the old saying goes:

"HARD WORK PAYS OFF"

When I played football in college I had a shit load of guys who were NOT NATURAL and even the coaches new and they turned their cheeks for whatever reason! I had to compete against one of the NON-NATURAL teammates for a starting position, long story short guess who got the starting position?

If i have to tell you I'm a smack you lol, but the point is like G said you can't worry bout the next man, focus on yourself because you are going to make or break yourself and not the next man. You hold your own destiny and fate in your hand and not the next man. Let that personal hold themselves accountable for their actions. So just do what I do mind your business and put on the tunnel vision and WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF!

Good shit G I wanna see where this thread is headed!

...EASY!

Brutus_515
10-16-08, 12:00 pm
Like the old saying goes:

"HARD WORK PAYS OFF"

When I played football in college I had a shit load of guys who were NOT NATURAL and even the coaches new and they turned their cheeks for whatever reason! I had to compete against one of the NON-NATURAL teammates for a starting position, long story short guess who got the starting position?

If i have to tell you I'm a smack you lol, but the point is like G said you can't worry bout the next man, focus on yourself because you are going to make or break yourself and not the next man. You hold your own destiny and fate in your hand and not the next man. Let that personal hold themselves accountable for their actions. So just do what I do mind your business and put on the tunnel vision and WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF!

Good shit G I wanna see where this thread is headed!

...EASY!

Awesome post man!!!.... Folks need to be accountable for what they believe and what they do...(accountable as in not "flashing it around" let you body show for itself and keep your mouth shut)...do folks on enhancement work less than those who dont?...No its isnt magic it is just a different chemical than those sold over the counter...(sometimes not by very much either)...MOST people who are "on" dont boast about it because it is taboo...while others who arnt that is the first thing out of thier moufs...

this might come from right field but ...the whole "natural/not natural" is like politics, religion and taxes....your not going to agree with the other party or sides views, your going to nit pick the differences and why thier views and opinions are better...thats why there is an unspoken rule when having a conversation...dont talk about the 3 topics and we might as well add natural/not natural to the rule too...does it really matter?

Mr. Aestheticz
10-16-08, 12:18 pm
Awesome post man!!!.... Folks need to be accountable for what they believe and what they do...(accountable as in not "flashing it around" let you body show for itself and keep your mouth shut)...do folks on enhancement work less than those who dont?...No its isnt magic it is just a different chemical than those sold over the counter...(sometimes not by very much either)...MOST people who are "on" dont boast about it because it is taboo...while others who arnt that is the first thing out of thier moufs...

this might come from right field but ...the whole "natural/not natural" is like politics, religion and taxes....your not going to agree with the other party or sides views, your going to nit pick the differences and why thier views and opinions are better...thats why there is an unspoken rule when having a conversation...dont talk about the 3 topics and we might as well add natural/not natural to the rule too...does it really matter?

Well my friend that is old school thinking that a lot of modern day minds do not know and or forgot about, I mean I am only 24 but grew up on an old school block:

"dont talk about the 3 topics"

I have 4 topics myself but that is not what we are discussing, you know what we should add "natural/not natural" to those topics, so now I have 5 lol, but some where this is an unwritten rule in the book of bodybuilding and def needs to be practiced and taught.

Enforcer
10-16-08, 12:27 pm
I'll revert this thread to a famous movie quote- "Gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a shit" lol

Mr. Aestheticz
10-16-08, 12:34 pm
I'll revert this thread to a famous movie quote- "Gold jacket, green jacket, who gives a shit" lol

Is that Adam Sandler "Happy Gilmore"?

Enforcer
10-16-08, 12:36 pm
Is that Adam Sandler "Happy Gilmore"?

Could be...lol

DEADn
10-16-08, 5:29 pm
Although I don't say much about natural vs otherwise, I personally am turned off by those who are not natural simply because in the end you end up hurting your body and it isn't worth that mess. Weightlifting is about health and building your muscles up and getting stronger.

It is nice to be able to look up to certain peoples as inspiration but when it gets found out that that person is doing something unnatural it just messes everything up for me. What is the matter with hard work and being natural? Seems like it could be a crime in some eyes if you just wanna be around people are go natural. I for one stick to my guns with this and if some don't like it and don't see why someone should have something heartfelt to say about it then just go your way.

Machine
10-16-08, 5:52 pm
Natural...not natural...I wonder why thats so important? People are so wierd; they are forever trying to quantify theirs as well as other people's acheivements. I dont think there is any hard evidence that makes the case for a "natural" physique being any more or less worthy of our recognition. I find this kind of pre-supposed superiority to be both annoying and condescending in equal parts. A simlar phenomenon I see alot is 'the old stage of physical development versus the age of the subject routine' I dont know how many times I have heard it said before " that guy is a fucking freak, and he's only 22 years old too." Again we see the irrational need to quantify a given person's results or efforts. What the fuck difference does it make how old you are? It's as if people think that just because you are relatively young, you will have nothing but smooth sailing and twenty pounds of muscle a year to boot. It doesn't work that way...you know how many guys I have heard that comment made about...then the realization that not only are they not "super human sized" five years later...but in fact alot of them dont even train anymore...and some of them are in the fucking cemetary! I back away when its time to quantify a man's acheivements or abilities. Either look at the man and say "solid physique" or say "needs work" anything else is academic. We've all heard a dude say "WOW!, she's not bad for having three kids." What the fuck planet is that a compliment on? Regardless of the situation...she's either pretty...or she's not. Just an observation- MACHINE

G Diesel
10-17-08, 2:01 pm
Although I don't say much about natural vs otherwise, I personally am turned off by those who are not natural simply because in the end you end up hurting your body and it isn't worth that mess. Weightlifting is about health and building your muscles up and getting stronger.

It is nice to be able to look up to certain peoples as inspiration but when it gets found out that that person is doing something unnatural it just messes everything up for me. What is the matter with hard work and being natural? Seems like it could be a crime in some eyes if you just wanna be around people are go natural. I for one stick to my guns with this and if some don't like it and don't see why someone should have something heartfelt to say about it then just go your way.

I hear what you're saying bro, but my only problem is that using myself as an example, while I don't use bbing drugs, I do a whole bunch of excessive shit in pursuit of my training goals... Like for example, I've done 2g of protein per lb of bodyweight before, drank 3 weight gainers a day in the past, taken 2 or 3 times the recommended dose of of particular supps. Like right now in the short period intra and postworkout, I probably take in like 50g of aminos (EAAs and BCAAs, glutamine, etc) and then like 100g of simple carbs postworkout. I've also been taking 5g of Tribulus Pro per day. I probably take 80 or so pills in my supplement protocol everyday. Now I may not be using a gram of test a week, but there sure as shit is nothing "natural" about my routine and I definitely have no right to be judgmental or holier than thou. Peace, G

GJN5002
10-17-08, 2:17 pm
Im in agreement with most of the statements, enforcer quoted it well, "gold jacket, green jacket, who cares?" But its when someone wearing a gold jacket is trying to tell me its green I have a problem. If you want to partake, dont lie to me and tell me youre natural. Its offensive to naturals who train their asses off everyday and cant miss a meal or a training session. Yea, I realize guys who arent natural train just as hard, but put a natural and a non natural on the same stage and who wins assuming they are doing everything exactly the same. Thats why it does matter to me, honesty that is.

DEADn
10-17-08, 2:20 pm
I hear what you are saying and I see what you yourself are doing. I have always defined unnatural as using the "s" in order to built the muscle. I don't consider what you are doing as unnatural. It is more or less taking in more than the average person out there because you want to build yourself up. With what you are doing I doubt you are going to see the side effects later on down the road unless you overdo it with the lifting whereas taken the other way you are going to see side effects and to me it isn't worth all of that. Does that make sense?

Hoomgar
10-17-08, 2:25 pm
I hear what you're saying bro, but my only problem is that using myself as an example, while I don't use bbing drugs, I do a whole bunch of excessive shit in pursuit of my training goals... Like for example, I've done 2g of protein per lb of bodyweight before, drank 3 weight gainers a day in the past, taken 2 or 3 times the recommended dose of of particular supps. Like right now in the short period intra and postworkout, I probably take in like 50g of aminos (EAAs and BCAAs, glutamine, etc) and then like 100g of simple carbs postworkout. I've also been taking 5g of Tribulus Pro per day. I probably take 80 or so pills in my supplement protocol everyday. Now I may not be using a gram of test a week, but there sure as shit is nothing "natural" about my routine and I definitely have no right to be judgmental or holier than thou. Peace, G

Double dosing FTW! We do what we have to do to get to where we want to be. And we all do it the way "we" feel is right.

I've seen some crazy stuff in the gym and heard people say, "yea but he juices". OK so you're saying if you juice you can do what he is doing? Point totally missed, that plane wont even land man. I keep my mouth shut and move weight.

Dig this one G: I go to the locker about 45 minutes in to grab another water bottle out of my cooler bag. While there I snap up another Amino Max tablet and gulp it down as I am walking out. I think nothing of what I'm doing, no idea that people are watching. An older guy (must have seen me in the locker room) walks up to me while I'm doing my one arm rows and asks what that "stuff" he saw me "popping" in the locker room. I told him, Amino's, named the brand. He proceeds to say "I'd like to get stronger and bigger too but I am just afraid that if I start doing that stuff I'll get caught and I can't afford to go to jail". Then he asks "where are you getting the stuff?"

Hello!?!?! Got a clue? This is what we are up against fellas. This is the mentality out there. It's a freakin Amino Acid tablet! Not only DON'T people know what a supplement is but even worse, they automatically assume that you are using drugs! I was speechless.. I simply said again, "dude, those are just amino acid tablets, like vitamins, nothing illegal". he looked at me like a Deer staring into oncoming headlights and walked away. I don't know if he was confused at that point, thought I was BSing at that point or what? But now, every time I got to take a freakin supplement in the gym I feel like "the eyes" are watching me and thinking I'm popping drugs.

It's a sad state of affairs to realize how ignorant of the truth in issues the general population has allowed themselves to become in the country.

Just been wanting to share that. Happened just a little while ago.

Hg

DEADn
10-17-08, 2:42 pm
Alot of people don't understand the basics of nutrition and aminos etc. Usually you only hear about aminos in the context of weightlifting and in the context of weightlifting you usually hear that juicing stuff and so people just simply lump them together.

Just kindly tell the person that it is good stuff and why you take it. They will either listen or not. I also tell people that if a product has an outrageous name to the point that it sounds like a docs prescription then chances are you don't want the stuff. Just my opinion.

Mr. Aestheticz
10-17-08, 4:24 pm
I see what a lot of people are saying especially in Hoomgar, DEADn, and G's post!

The thing is as bodybuilders, power lifters, and athletes these are the stereotypes and categories that WE have to understand and accept when we take on this life and style! So if a lot of this shit bothers you then walk away because this shit isn't meant for you, because none of this is going to change.

It is real shitty that non-natural has overcasted natural and that anyone and everyone who is big, a freak, strong, bodybuilder, powerlifter, and so forth is non-natural, but once again we as people (not saying people here in the FORVM or thread) but in general as humans promoted it and look where it is at now.

Trust I try my best to take my supp's in privacy but it is hard to when I am at work and in the gym to avoid being questioned. BBUUTT like I said that is something that comes with the territory and I had to accept it if I want to be the best in my sport.

Like G I am an EAA, BCAA, Amino's fanatic, it should be illegal how much aminos I take or we take. Shit during my contest prep I was taking 2 Pak's, Omega, Flex, 2 Nitro's, Cuts, Stak, Pump, going through a tin of EAA Stak every 3 days and more. Now whether you consider it natural or not WHATEVER. Point is we all in one form or shape do whatever it takes to be our best.

We all do it OUR OWN WAY and whatever way works for and whatever that person is willing to do and sacrifice to be the best is their decision. I know it is fucked up that there are lies, cheats, scandals, or whatever else you want to call them but back to the beginning. When we get so deeply involved in this game these are the things we must come to grips with and ACCEPT. In my previous post just worry about yourself, focus on your goals, DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE NEXT MAN, put on your tunnel vision and worry about yourself!

Cellerator65
10-17-08, 6:30 pm
this is my understanding:

someone who uses and competes in a tested event, cheater

someone who uses and competes in a non-tested event, fair

someone who uses and does not compete, fair but illegal

someone who uses and lies about using, a liar and breaking the law but still fair

Once you determine what cheating is, then you can call it what it is. To look down upon someone who uses it is bullshit, wanna know why? because your hands aren't clean, so who are you to judge someone else.

Machine
10-18-08, 12:52 pm
Trust me...even with all the examples of so called "extreme" behavior listed in this thread...you have no idea what people have done and are still doing in the name of "extreme" behavior aimed at acheiving desired results. You dont even have a clue of what extreme is...and thats not a bad thing...you'll probably live longer than the rest of us. I mean forget the drug shit...what about 50 eggs every day...3 pounds of beef a day...calories in excess of 10,000 daily...how about I.V. dining in the middle of the night with a registered nurse...not even touching supps and or drugs...manipulating insulin levels...bodyweight that fluxuates between 250 and 350...hows that for extreme. Now we're in my end of the pool...I can straight blow your mind with extremities...I guess like the term "heavy" it is all relative to the individual as well as the context. Like most ohter topics in this world its all sizzle...and no steak. Internalize and re-up for the assault...if you get caught up trying to justify your methods, or trying to quantify another mans results or methods...you become irrelevant and annoying. - MACHINE

k1usa
10-18-08, 2:46 pm
Trust me...even with all the examples of so called "extreme" behavior listed in this thread...you have no idea what people have done and are still doing in the name of "extreme" behavior aimed at acheiving desired results. You dont even have a clue of what extreme is...and thats not a bad thing...you'll probably live longer than the rest of us. I mean forget the drug shit...what about 50 eggs every day...3 pounds of beef a day...calories in excess of 10,000 daily...how about I.V. dining in the middle of the night with a registered nurse...not even touching supps and or drugs...manipulating insulin levels...bodyweight that fluxuates between 250 and 350...hows that for extreme. Now we're in my end of the pool...I can straight blow your mind with extremities...I guess like the term "heavy" it is all relative to the individual as well as the context. Like most ohter topics in this world its all sizzle...and no steak. Internalize and re-up for the assault...if you get caught up trying to justify your methods, or trying to quantify another mans results or methods...you become irrelevant and annoying. - MACHINE


the extreme is a way of life...its on the edge...its what we do to get there....risk...yea sure...but the risk are all around us...in how we train...eat...sups down the hatch....extreme for me last 4 months was just surviving..... what we do to get what we want takes at times extreme measure....state of mind and lots of pain. This old dog loves the edge....nothing normal about what we do...but its normal to love what we do from our perspective....

D-Bomb
10-18-08, 8:20 pm
Trust me...even with all the examples of so called "extreme" behavior listed in this thread...you have no idea what people have done and are still doing in the name of "extreme" behavior aimed at acheiving desired results. You dont even have a clue of what extreme is...and thats not a bad thing...you'll probably live longer than the rest of us. I mean forget the drug shit...what about 50 eggs every day...3 pounds of beef a day...calories in excess of 10,000 daily...how about I.V. dining in the middle of the night with a registered nurse...not even touching supps and or drugs...manipulating insulin levels...bodyweight that fluxuates between 250 and 350...hows that for extreme. Now we're in my end of the pool...I can straight blow your mind with extremities...I guess like the term "heavy" it is all relative to the individual as well as the context. Like most ohter topics in this world its all sizzle...and no steak. Internalize and re-up for the assault...if you get caught up trying to justify your methods, or trying to quantify another mans results or methods...you become irrelevant and annoying. - MACHINE

never more than the truth there brother!, some things we do in order to look or lift what we want...is seriously a serious business. We all have gone over and above what is considered normal or safe to be that much more of what we want to become. Even with training, we push beyond what most in the gym consider rational to build muscle, to change our physiques. . .i remember eating 8000-10000 calories for quite a while and im damn well 5.7! i remember blowing up 13kgs (29lbs) in 2 months...still in school, my friends said all sorts of things that i used steroids and such...all bullshit... its just that sick desire to be the best...it pushes us past extremes...

dannynb
10-18-08, 8:58 pm
Agreed man... It is an awesome compliment and as long as you and those you care about know the truth, then who gives a fuck what some asshole thinks? Peace, G

Right there...in those few words you said it all bro.....I don't care what the next guy is or isn't doing...all my focus and attention is on the guy in the mirror...I stare at him...watch him...make sure "he" is never training harder than me...that is my only worry...not the guy on the bench next to me...but the one looking back in the mirror.

Cstlfx
10-19-08, 12:35 am
I've been thinking about this for a while and I think I have arrived at my conclusion. Bodybuilding is not natural to begin with. The body heals in order to help the body overcome and adapt to the environment it is in. It's purpose was not to look good, but to allow the body to survive until one could procreate. Someone making their muscles as big as possible is just not biologically efficient, not the purpose of the genes adapted to our ancestors environment.

So, if we are all ready doing something that isnt natural, does adding something else that isnt natural even matter?

Furthermore, anyone taking supplements cannot complain about someone else not being natural because supplements are not "natural" either. In order to be completely natural, we'd need to get all of our nutrition from whole foods.

I couldnt care less if someone else isnt natural. I only care what I do, if I cant overcome what someone else is doing, I'm not working hard enough.

Achilles
10-19-08, 8:04 pm
Im in agreement with most of the statements, enforcer quoted it well, "gold jacket, green jacket, who cares?" But its when someone wearing a gold jacket is trying to tell me its green I have a problem. If you want to partake, dont lie to me and tell me youre natural. Its offensive to naturals who train their asses off everyday and cant miss a meal or a training session. Yea, I realize guys who arent natural train just as hard, but put a natural and a non natural on the same stage and who wins assuming they are doing everything exactly the same. Thats why it does matter to me, honesty that is.

I'm with you bro. Don't tell me your getting results and looking the way you are naturally. When the truth is your getting some pharmaceutical grade help, along with everything else being right on. Which brings me back to my initial statement, don't try and sell me something with the inclination that it will help me obtain a champion physique naturally (and with said supplement). When the person doing the endorsement(s) is taking steroids and either denying it or not mentioning it. I cant emphasize enough on how mad it makes me that people are trying to sell a dream that for many, no matter how much work and time they put in .. will never be realized without pharmaceutical grade help

Brutus_515
10-19-08, 8:52 pm
I'm with you bro. Don't tell me your getting results and looking the way you are naturally. When the truth is your getting some pharmaceutical grade help, along with everything else being right on. Which brings me back to my initial statement, don't try and sell me something with the inclination that it will help me obtain a champion physique naturally (and with said supplement). When the person doing the endorsement(s) is taking steroids and either denying it or not mentioning it. I cant emphasize enough on how mad it makes me that people are trying to sell a dream that for many, no matter how much work and time they put in .. will never be realized without pharmaceutical grade help

Dude I totally understand your point about the endorsed ads with monsters taking a weight gainer shake gaining 14.4lbs of lean mass in 14 days or what ever supplement.... but I have a question of who to get pissed at....its it really the individual or the marketing of the product? I could be wrong but when someone one is endorsed they and thier likeness (pictures) are owned by said named company. and I doubt most athletes on those ads make them or even know about them till they open the magazine. but it can be discouraging or even aggrivating at the least but at the same time it is the indusrty as a whole not just the athlete they are just trying to make a buck.

Brutus_515
10-19-08, 8:54 pm
I couldnt care less if someone else isnt natural. I only care what I do, if I cant overcome what someone else is doing, I'm not working hard enough.


BOOM!!!! that is probably the best thing i read on a bodybuilding message board EVER

Maximum4
10-20-08, 2:46 pm
The fact is people are always going to point the finger when they see someone big, or someone who has changed their body. When I went to school I gained 20 lbs in the first two months. Busted my ass to gain that size. When I got back home all I heard was yo bro what you taking. Did you juice? Its called hard work, dedication, and determination, and heart. If you got all those things fuck what everyone else says.

Factory
10-20-08, 2:59 pm
i think it makes sense if your competing, just not if your trying to flex on someone because your natural and there not. If I was competing I'd do natural because the guys in the regular circuit are 10x bigger then me, even at the same weight, but i wouldnt feel better then someone cause they use the sh*t, they got there reason for using it. just my 2cents.

DEADn
10-21-08, 12:34 pm
I've been thinking about this for a while and I think I have arrived at my conclusion. Bodybuilding is not natural to begin with. The body heals in order to help the body overcome and adapt to the environment it is in. It's purpose was not to look good, but to allow the body to survive until one could procreate. Someone making their muscles as big as possible is just not biologically efficient, not the purpose of the genes adapted to our ancestors environment.

--------------------------------------------

I think on one side BB isn't natural but the body adapts to whatever is presented it. If you work in an environment that requires heavy lifting then your body adapts to that. If you have a job where you don't get much exercise then your body doesn't work hard and then you have to do some type of exercises otherwise you end up with health issues.
If you eat too much you end up getting fat. The body doesn't like the extremes but will adapt to it. .........Does this make any sense?

SQUAT or DIE!
10-21-08, 12:36 pm
DEADn i like that theroy

prowrestler
10-21-08, 12:42 pm
DEADn i like that theroy

x2

DEADn
10-21-08, 1:43 pm
I think we need also need to becareful not to think of ourselves more than we are when it comes to BB. Some use the gear to get bigger and aim for contests and such and the competition is great but narcicism is a dangerous thing and can lead each of us down a road that will leave us asking ....WHAT JUST HAPPENED? Also gotta becareful not to rationalize things to make them more than what they are. Don't over think details.

IN my last post I responded to an earlier post because I felt that although the poster wrote what sounded good I think it is an example of maybe overanalyzing things.

I lift because I want to get bigger because my frame structure is thin but I have sense enough to not want to do it at the expensive and throwing something into my system that I will regret it later if you know what I mean. My health is too important for that mess. Plus the fact that I have no intention of doing any BB show.

And when I hear of products with names that sound like they came from the RX or are latin in origin I know that it cannot be a good thing in the body.

Stay intense in training and reach for your goal..........have fun doing it most of all

WeeMan
10-21-08, 2:24 pm
Stay intense in training and reach for your goal..........have fun doing it most of all

sums it up!

Achilles
10-21-08, 7:48 pm
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I hear the N.P.C. does not test for steroids. If this is true, the disappointing part is (theoretically). That ones success would be limited in the organization based upon the level of competition at a specific venue. So, for example a natural bodybuilder might do well at an Amateur event, but would continue to miss the mark and fall short at higher level events (The Nationals, Excalibur) Because the level of competition at an event of that prestige would be so high that most (if not all) competitors would be taking steroids to gain a tactical advantage over his or her fellow bodybuilders. Accordingly this puts a glass ceiling in place for natural bodybuilders with high expectations of themselves in the competitive bodybuilding field. It almost brings the idea into question that, at some point in ones career they would have to take steroids to continue competing at higher levels and do well.

Now the question is, at what point does a person start putting their health into jeopardy by abusing controlled substances for performance enhancement purposes. I'm not saying everyone who uses, necessarily abuses the substance, but we all know under pressure either internal or external to compete and win at high levels it does exist.

Brutus_515
10-21-08, 8:43 pm
the NPC does have specific drug tested "natural" shows, last years Team Universe Chris Fialdo (spelling?) is a natural bodybuilder from hawaii....also if you look at the lighter weight classes at nationals (jose raymond) you will see Nattys get Ifbb pro cards. But as a majority No the NPC doesnt test its part of the sport, there are other federations for those not willing to enter NPC shows

ShaqFu
10-22-08, 12:11 pm
I've been thinking about this for a while and I think I have arrived at my conclusion. Bodybuilding is not natural to begin with. The body heals in order to help the body overcome and adapt to the environment it is in. It's purpose was not to look good, but to allow the body to survive until one could procreate. Someone making their muscles as big as possible is just not biologically efficient, not the purpose of the genes adapted to our ancestors environment.

--------------------------------------------

I think on one side BB isn't natural but the body adapts to whatever is presented it. If you work in an environment that requires heavy lifting then your body adapts to that. If you have a job where you don't get much exercise then your body doesn't work hard and then you have to do some type of exercises otherwise you end up with health issues.
If you eat too much you end up getting fat. The body doesn't like the extremes but will adapt to it. .........Does this make any sense?

Sorry brotha but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I didn't see the exact post you were responding to or the context but I'm just going by what you have posted here.

Bodybuilding is indeed something very natural to a human being. It is something that perfectly corresponds to human character. DEADn you see the body as something made for survival; but the totality of humanity is not bound by physical limits or the need for survival. We often speak of the mind-muscle connection and the power of the mental over the physical. There are things at play besides our physicality. In other words, there is something more to humanity than "survival" as such.

Ever heard of the "Will to Power"- the cornerstone of Nietzschean philosophy? ALL life, including human beings, seeks not only preservation but enhancement. We seek to ascend our current stability in order to achieve something higher. If, as human beings, we are thus characterized by this will to power, then bodybuilding is simply another expression of that. We don't want to just survive physically; in this day and age and with bodybuilding, we not only want to survive, we want to fucking look good while doing it. We want to take our physiques BEYOND mere survival. Why? That is what life does. Bodybuilding is a manifestation of life's drive to enhance itself.

Maybe the purpose of the body was not to look good; I doubt the body in and of itself has a distinct "purpose"- what I'm saying is that at least this purpose is subject to the fundamental character of life, that it will be molded in order to enable such life, in this case humanity, to enhance itself.

If we apply this to steroid use, then steroids are simply a means to express our will to power- our desire to enhance ourselves. While it is not "natural" in the physical sense of the word, it is perfectly natural for an individual to want to be better, sometimes by any means necessary. Is is moral/ethical? I don't know but that is for a different day. That is why I can always see people using steroids, from Joe Blow to My. Olympia-We ALL want to be better than we originally are. Even if we are simply doing this for ourselves, which most of us are, I can still see why people use steroids. It accelerates our enhancement.

I think the main point of distinction between you and I DEADn, is that you see things through a Darwinian lens. Life evolves towards survival. Myself, I believe that life seeks not only survival, but enhancement- a level beyond survival. In this sense, bodybuilding is just as natural as the next thing. Peace.
ShaqFu

joe-yamma
11-04-08, 9:32 pm
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I hear the N.P.C. does not test for steroids. If this is true, the disappointing part is (theoretically). That ones success would be limited in the organization based upon the level of competition at a specific venue. So, for example a natural bodybuilder might do well at an Amateur event, but would continue to miss the mark and fall short at higher level events (The Nationals, Excalibur) Because the level of competition at an event of that prestige would be so high that most (if not all) competitors would be taking steroids to gain a tactical advantage over his or her fellow bodybuilders. Accordingly this puts a glass ceiling in place for natural bodybuilders with high expectations of themselves in the competitive bodybuilding field. It almost brings the idea into question that, at some point in ones career they would have to take steroids to continue competing at higher levels and do well.

Now the question is, at what point does a person start putting their health into jeopardy by abusing controlled substances for performance enhancement purposes. I'm not saying everyone who uses, necessarily abuses the substance, but we all know under pressure either internal or external to compete and win at high levels it does exist.OCB http://www.theocbwebsite.com/guide_Misconceptions.htm
here you go... http://www.theocbwebsite.com/ocbevents.html
the owner of my gym promotes the "Battle for the Swords" every year here in Pittsburgh...
they just had it last weekend.
there's usually something out there for everyone, if you look hard enough.

Cstlfx
11-04-08, 10:17 pm
Sorry brotha but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I didn't see the exact post you were responding to or the context but I'm just going by what you have posted here.

Bodybuilding is indeed something very natural to a human being. It is something that perfectly corresponds to human character. DEADn you see the body as something made for survival; but the totality of humanity is not bound by physical limits or the need for survival. We often speak of the mind-muscle connection and the power of the mental over the physical. There are things at play besides our physicality. In other words, there is something more to humanity than "survival" as such.

Ever heard of the "Will to Power"- the cornerstone of Nietzschean philosophy? ALL life, including human beings, seeks not only preservation but enhancement. We seek to ascend our current stability in order to achieve something higher. If, as human beings, we are thus characterized by this will to power, then bodybuilding is simply another expression of that. We don't want to just survive physically; in this day and age and with bodybuilding, we not only want to survive, we want to fucking look good while doing it. We want to take our physiques BEYOND mere survival. Why? That is what life does. Bodybuilding is a manifestation of life's drive to enhance itself.

Maybe the purpose of the body was not to look good; I doubt the body in and of itself has a distinct "purpose"- what I'm saying is that at least this purpose is subject to the fundamental character of life, that it will be molded in order to enable such life, in this case humanity, to enhance itself.

If we apply this to steroid use, then steroids are simply a means to express our will to power- our desire to enhance ourselves. While it is not "natural" in the physical sense of the word, it is perfectly natural for an individual to want to be better, sometimes by any means necessary. Is is moral/ethical? I don't know but that is for a different day. That is why I can always see people using steroids, from Joe Blow to My. Olympia-We ALL want to be better than we originally are. Even if we are simply doing this for ourselves, which most of us are, I can still see why people use steroids. It accelerates our enhancement.

I think the main point of distinction between you and I DEADn, is that you see things through a Darwinian lens. Life evolves towards survival. Myself, I believe that life seeks not only survival, but enhancement- a level beyond survival. In this sense, bodybuilding is just as natural as the next thing. Peace.
ShaqFu

I wrote the original quote the DEADn was quoting, and yes, it was grossly over analyzed. I was trying to convey how deep someone can dig to decide whether or not bodybuilding is natural or not which, by your response and mine has shown, can be very complex and extreme.

Unfortunately, my original post was not deep enough to have people say "what the hell? this is ridiculous!" Really, in the end, most people should not worry about it. If you're not competing, do not worry about it at all. If you're in an untested division, dont worry about it. Each person can have a different opinion on levels of "Naturalness."

WeeMan
11-06-08, 12:50 pm
haha im gonna get this tshirt

http://bodybuilding.com/store/tshirts/steroidswhite.jpg

simpleguy
11-06-08, 1:28 pm
Sorry brotha but I'm going to have to disagree with you. I didn't see the exact post you were responding to or the context but I'm just going by what you have posted here.

Bodybuilding is indeed something very natural to a human being. It is something that perfectly corresponds to human character. DEADn you see the body as something made for survival; but the totality of humanity is not bound by physical limits or the need for survival. We often speak of the mind-muscle connection and the power of the mental over the physical. There are things at play besides our physicality. In other words, there is something more to humanity than "survival" as such.

Ever heard of the "Will to Power"- the cornerstone of Nietzschean philosophy? ALL life, including human beings, seeks not only preservation but enhancement. We seek to ascend our current stability in order to achieve something higher. If, as human beings, we are thus characterized by this will to power, then bodybuilding is simply another expression of that. We don't want to just survive physically; in this day and age and with bodybuilding, we not only want to survive, we want to fucking look good while doing it. We want to take our physiques BEYOND mere survival. Why? That is what life does. Bodybuilding is a manifestation of life's drive to enhance itself.

Maybe the purpose of the body was not to look good; I doubt the body in and of itself has a distinct "purpose"- what I'm saying is that at least this purpose is subject to the fundamental character of life, that it will be molded in order to enable such life, in this case humanity, to enhance itself.

If we apply this to steroid use, then steroids are simply a means to express our will to power- our desire to enhance ourselves. While it is not "natural" in the physical sense of the word, it is perfectly natural for an individual to want to be better, sometimes by any means necessary. Is is moral/ethical? I don't know but that is for a different day. That is why I can always see people using steroids, from Joe Blow to My. Olympia-We ALL want to be better than we originally are. Even if we are simply doing this for ourselves, which most of us are, I can still see why people use steroids. It accelerates our enhancement.

I think the main point of distinction between you and I DEADn, is that you see things through a Darwinian lens. Life evolves towards survival. Myself, I believe that life seeks not only survival, but enhancement- a level beyond survival. In this sense, bodybuilding is just as natural as the next thing. Peace.
ShaqFu


good post, well put

Wasteland
02-20-09, 11:21 am
Ever heard of the "Will to Power"- the cornerstone of Nietzschean philosophy? ALL life, including human beings, seeks not only preservation but enhancement. We seek to ascend our current stability in order to achieve something higher. If, as human beings, we are thus characterized by this will to power, then bodybuilding is simply another expression of that. We don't want to just survive physically; in this day and age and with bodybuilding, we not only want to survive, we want to fucking look good while doing it. We want to take our physiques BEYOND mere survival. Why? That is what life does. Bodybuilding is a manifestation of life's drive to enhance itself.


I think this is a fairly simplistic reading of his concept of der Wille zur Macht. The concept, was for Nietzsche, fluid and constantly evolving. It also must be read within the context of history. Even so, I like the way you're thinking and attempting to provide a larger philosophical framework to the simple act of lifting.

GJN5002
02-20-09, 5:21 pm
I think we need also need to becareful not to think of ourselves more than we are when it comes to BB. Some use the gear to get bigger and aim for contests and such and the competition is great but narcicism is a dangerous thing and can lead each of us down a road that will leave us asking ....WHAT JUST HAPPENED? Also gotta becareful not to rationalize things to make them more than what they are. Don't over think details.

IN my last post I responded to an earlier post because I felt that although the poster wrote what sounded good I think it is an example of maybe overanalyzing things.

I lift because I want to get bigger because my frame structure is thin but I have sense enough to not want to do it at the expensive and throwing something into my system that I will regret it later if you know what I mean. My health is too important for that mess. Plus the fact that I have no intention of doing any BB show.

And when I hear of products with names that sound like they came from the RX or are latin in origin I know that it cannot be a good thing in the body.

Stay intense in training and reach for your goal..........have fun doing it most of all

I feel where youre coming from, but a lot of bodybuilding is overanalyzing. For some people eating decently and working out hard is enough, for some people they feel the need to count every calories, time every supp, write down every rep. Neither way is wrong or right, its just personal preference. How you perceive "natural status" is the same.

The truth is, m any people who take supps will never put any time into researching what they are actually taking, what it does, how it interacts, are there long term studies on safety, etc etc. Having a scientific name shouldnt scare you away, just intrigue you to find out what its really all about.

Im not going to argue the morality, apllication, or safety of steroids vs natural. We all have different opinions that vary because of our education on the subject as well as personal experience. The only thing I can reall think to compare it to is that its like raw benching vs shirt/gear benching. The guys that go raw think shirts are cheating, the guys that use shirts dont think theyre cheating, and everyone else has various opinions.

Beowulf
05-24-10, 1:13 pm
I feel where youre coming from, but a lot of bodybuilding is overanalyzing. For some people eating decently and working out hard is enough, for some people they feel the need to count every calories, time every supp, write down every rep. Neither way is wrong or right, its just personal preference. How you perceive "natural status" is the same.

I agree completely.

U Mad Brah?
05-24-10, 1:25 pm
big difference with guys on the juice vs natural... just look at the physiques and how they perform brahs... why ya gotta hide it brahs? where's the level playing field brahs? why ya gotta break rules just to get big brahs? that's the part i don't like brahs... but at the same time i get it brahs... why should we even care brahs? but where does the slippery slope end brahs

Beowulf
05-24-10, 1:28 pm
Looking at pro cycling with Floyd Landis accusing other riders of doping, including Lance Armstrong. Look at all the finger pointing.

U Mad Brah?
05-24-10, 1:34 pm
what's the point of having rules in sports if athletes are gonna break them anyway brahs? why have rules for anything brahs? that's the slippery slope brahs...

Beowulf
05-24-10, 1:51 pm
what's the point of having rules in sports if athletes are gonna break them anyway brahs? why have rules for anything brahs? that's the slippery slope brahs...

Rules wouldn't be broken if they were more realistic perhaps. But without any kind of rules, then you have the "haves" vs. the "have nots" scenario.

J-DOG
05-24-10, 8:15 pm
These are some of the main tools that will get you to acheive your absolute best physique regardless of wether you are a genetic freak or are taking everything under the sun.

I dont spend time worrying about what he/she is doing or not doing because i am more worried about getting my meals in when i need to and hitting the gym and giving my all everytime i set foot in there. As long as we all make it a priority to do the ABSOLUTE best that we can do to better ourselves physically and mentally then we need not concern ourselves with the jealousy game.

And lets be honest the only reason that most people make negative comments is because it usually highlights one of their own percieved shortcomings or they just have nothing better to do.

I think G Diesel said it best with "Bigger than yesterday, smaller than tommorow"! If we spend more time working on that theory then we would all be doing what we need to do, to get where we want to be!

Just my 2 cents and please dont take offence to this if you are reading it as that is not my intention.


JD

jeff00z28
05-25-10, 2:37 am
i used to hate on sauce cuzz i was uneducated and thought it was comparable to cocaine, heroin, etc. Now i have finally realized is that people who claim "...but im natural so i accomplished more" are using it as an excuse to suck.

Universal Rep
09-13-10, 2:18 pm
These are some of the main tools that will get you to acheive your absolute best physique regardless of wether you are a genetic freak or are taking everything under the sun.

I dont spend time worrying about what he/she is doing or not doing because i am more worried about getting my meals in when i need to and hitting the gym and giving my all everytime i set foot in there. As long as we all make it a priority to do the ABSOLUTE best that we can do to better ourselves physically and mentally then we need not concern ourselves with the jealousy game.

And lets be honest the only reason that most people make negative comments is because it usually highlights one of their own percieved shortcomings or they just have nothing better to do.

I think G Diesel said it best with "Bigger than yesterday, smaller than tommorow"! If we spend more time working on that theory then we would all be doing what we need to do, to get where we want to be!

Just my 2 cents and please dont take offence to this if you are reading it as that is not my intention.


JD

Well said brother.

G Diesel
09-13-10, 2:28 pm
i used to hate on sauce cuzz i was uneducated and thought it was comparable to cocaine, heroin, etc. Now i have finally realized is that people who claim "...but im natural so i accomplished more" are using it as an excuse to suck.

Though those people exist, I don't think your statement is entirely true and sure doesn't apply to everybody. I know plenty of natural guys who train harder and are more committed than anybody I know. I also know natty guys that use it as an excuse to be small. That said, I also know a whole bunch of enhanced guys that have no business going that route and don't live the lifestyle in any way, they just like the mystique and culture of the drugs.


Well said brother.

Agreed. J-DOG (not to be confused with J-Dawg. Haha.) summarized it all perfectly. That was a great post.

Peace, G

BamBam
09-13-10, 2:48 pm
These are some of the main tools that will get you to acheive your absolute best physique regardless of wether you are a genetic freak or are taking everything under the sun.

I dont spend time worrying about what he/she is doing or not doing because i am more worried about getting my meals in when i need to and hitting the gym and giving my all everytime i set foot in there. As long as we all make it a priority to do the ABSOLUTE best that we can do to better ourselves physically and mentally then we need not concern ourselves with the jealousy game.

And lets be honest the only reason that most people make negative comments is because it usually highlights one of their own percieved shortcomings or they just have nothing better to do.

I think G Diesel said it best with "Bigger than yesterday, smaller than tommorow"! If we spend more time working on that theory then we would all be doing what we need to do, to get where we want to be!

Just my 2 cents and please dont take offence to this if you are reading it as that is not my intention.


JD

Good shit bro!!

IronWilson
09-13-10, 3:41 pm
I really hate what bodybuilding has become. It is no longer a contest of building the ideal physique through weight training. I think it is just professional drug-stacking now. We might as well call Pharmaceutical Body Experimenting. This doesn't go for every competitor. But a lot of them are on a whole pharmacy of drugs (not just related to performance enhancement either).

People might not like hearing this, but remember when you first figured out that these guys weren't just using steroids, but a whole list of drugs that boggles your mind? It truly is heartbreaking....

almosteasy
09-13-10, 10:23 pm
natural v unnatural? i thought we were all on the same team here?



as for juicin and sports..sure barry bonds could hit a ball a mile but thats not what matters is it? if you dont have the hand-eye to even hit the ball, you have no shot. juicin doesnt improve your coordination thats for sure.

NJC_Manhattan
09-13-10, 10:42 pm
The bottom line is a man has to live with himself. If he chooses to do something, then--most of the time--he is in his total right to do so. We can criticize and condemn, but at the end of the day it is not really our place to play judge and jury. Its so easy to tear someone apart, but difficult to turn that same criticism back on ourselves. Its even easier when we can do it anonymously like through the medium of the internet.....

With that being said, the only time it bothers me is when the person doesn't own up to it or flat out lies about it. That's total chicken shit.

Solitude
09-14-10, 2:52 am
This topic is constantly thrashed about on youtube and various other forums.

My stance on the matter is this:

In the pursuit for the extreme and perfect physique, would it not seem sensible that extreme and perfect measures be taken?

The argument of natural vs. chemically enhanced has/is/will be argued, tossed here and there. At the professional level, s*e*o*ds are a piece of the puzzle but they are only a small piece of the puzzle. The bigger pieces are training, nutrition, rest and mentality. My stance on the matter is neutral. That being said I admire all physiques, natural or not.

Bootleg
09-14-10, 10:23 am
i just read this thread...


i agree g, who gives a what. just train, eat, and sleep, and go about y0' business...
people are always quick to judge, but that ain't stoppin me from doin my grind.